Democrats were played on the debt ceiling

[pimpbot]

Remember the "compromise" with Trump on raising the debt ceiling? That paved the way for this tax bill. We should have been hammering home how reckless this tax bill is with the debt and used the debt ceiling as leverage. This was one thing the GOP didn't agree on and needed democratic support. I swear our party is run by incompetent losers.

At this point in history, there is absolutely no reason to work with the republicans on anything.

Next up is passing a spending bill. I bet we cave on that too. In fact I already saw our "leaders" state that we will probably not require immigration reform as promised.

Why do we always cave and not use the leverage we have?

[Docreed2003]

1. At times...

At times, it does seem like our side is either playing from behind or not playing the same game as the GOP. How the hell did they allow this massive tax giveaway scam to hit the floor of the senate under reconciliation when it clearly adds massive amounts to the deficit and violates the Byrd agreement. Now, they’re backing away on pushing for a vote on DACA and losing all their leverage in the process. I’m genuinely concerned that the deadline next year will approach and Dreamers will have no protections.

That being said, McConnell and Ryan again and again have twisted the rules to their favor, now as during the Obama years.

[dalton99a]

6. +1

[SunSeeker]

10. How? Because we're in the minority and couldn't stop it.

What's with the Dem bashing?

[Docreed2003]

29. I didnt intend it to come across as bashing...

I was voicing frustration at the fact that McConnell seems to always have every single procedural trick up his sleeve and has even when he was minority leader and used those tricks to block Obama’s legislation time and again and now is using them as majority leader to ram through this craptastic tax giveaway. My frustration lies in the fact that at times it seems like our side doesn’t have a counter to that, not always, but sometimes. It’s just frustrating to watch all of this unfold in the manner that it has, I guess that’s a better way of saying what I meant.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

52. And why is that?

[uponit7771]

54. Comey, Russia and voter suppression

[pangaia]

77. It is not "bashing." It is criticizing

Something repubs never do to their own.

[SunSeeker]

90. It is bashing if it's unfair or unwarranted criticism, which this is. nt

[Demsrule86]

24. They couldn't stop it because they don't have any power in any branch of

government. I doubt the dreamers or Chip will be saved...the GOP owns it all so those who think third parties are a good idea...this is what a Republican government looks like. Consider that next time...All we can do is get the GOP out and try to fix what they broke...with a little help from some who should have known better.

[LenaBaby61]

2. Well ....

Many Dems= Charlie Brown

thuglicans = Lucy

[David__77]

3. The debt ceiling should have been barely raised.

And not without a steep price.

[SunSeeker]

12. What are you talking about? Dems got $8 Billion in hurricane relief out of the deal.

The debt ceiling was only raised to cover what we already owe, and that $8 Billion for hurricane relief. It was not raised $1.5 Trillion to accomodate this tax scam bill.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-congress/trump-meets-congressional-leaders-amid-fight-over-debt-limit-immigration-idUSKCN1BH24F

So what are you talking about?

[brer cat]

39. Exactly.

Democrats didn't give republicans a blank check as some here are suggesting. Thanks for setting the record straight, SunSeeker.

[pimpbot]

40. The US got hurricane relief

I didn't mean that we raised it to accomodate the tax bill. I meant that we could have kept the debt ceiling in the news cycle. Either don't cooperate to raise it or raise it very small amounts so they need to have multiple votes on it.

The news cycle is fickle. Anyone hear about the Las Vegas shooting anymore? The GOP are masters at keeping topics in the news and driving home false information. If we had kept the debt ceiling in the news it would have been harder for some of the spineless "moderate" republicans to justify their votes for the tax scam. Sure, they might have anyways, but it would have been harder.

It would have also been nice for democrats to come out EVERY DAY with recordings and clips from the last debt ceiling mess a couple years ago. When Cruz et al claimed we were about to drop off the cliff? MAKE THEM OWN THEIR WORDS. Its obvious the media won't try hard to do it.

Bottom line, I wish our leadership was more media savvy and could present our message better. "We aren't the republicans" isn't a good message.

[tritsofme]

56. Holding the the full faith and credit of the US government hostage isn't a good idea

Just because batshit crazy Republicans thought it was a great way to screw over Obama.

Thankfully we have actual adults running the show, instead of those who would prefer we act as the Bizarro Republicans.

[David__77]

41. I think it should have covered a shorter duration of time.

Maybe one month, not three, for instance.

[SunSeeker]

67. What difference would that have made?

And would that have been worth it to not get the $8 billion in hurricane relief?

[kysrsoze]

4. Completely agree. They should have held the approval of funds until...

a somewhat reasonable tax bill was passed
and signed by Comrade Assface. This seems like such an idiotic move to me.

[SunSeeker]

19. What are you talking about? Dems didn't "approve funds" for the GOP tax scam bill.

The debt ceiling was only lifted in September to pay for debt ALREADY INCURRED; it was not raised $1.5 Trillion to cover tax cuts for the rich. How in blazes do you blame the Dems for the GOP tax scam bill?

[Tarheel_Dem]

66. I suspect you know as much about the legislative process as the o.p. A handful here have finally...

become what they used to hate. This knee jerk impulse to lash out & scapegoat Democrats, who are in the minority, for the majority's feckless legislation is beyond explanation, and on the surface appears to be just more Dem bashing. I wish all schools still required Civics classes.

[dalton99a]

5. Interesting how the leadership spoke forcefully with such clarity and resolve on the Franken matter

[SunSeeker]

20. Dem leadership was quite clear and forceful in opposing the GOP tax scam bill.

All 48 Democrats in the Senate voted against it, and have been lambasting the bill for weeks to anyone who will listen. 55% of Americans oppose this tax cut bill, making it the most unpopular tax cut bill in history. I'd say the Dems have done their job in getting the word out.

[Demsrule86]

92. Amazing how some still feel the need to blame the Democrats for GOP bills...but why?

[sheshe2]

7. Wow.

I swear our party is run by incompetent losers.

This is Democratic Underground. We support Democrats here. That is a pretty broad brush you are using.

Next up is passing a spending bill. I bet we cave on that too. In fact I already saw our "leaders" state that we will probably not require immigration reform as promised.

Here you say we are going to cave on the spending bill. How are we caving when not one Democrat supported this? Not one in either house. How is that caving and please tell us how we can do more as a minority. We have spoken out repeatedly.

I would also love the link that states we...

In fact I already saw our "leaders" state that we will probably not require immigration reform as promised.

I never saw this. Please post the links.

[secondwind]

15. Hear, hear. We are proud Democrats and should stick together. Now, more than ever.

[Tarheel_Dem]

17. It's just more divide & conquer bullshit, and yet it made to the front page with 5 recs. Go figure.

[Demsrule86]

26. How is this post even still up? "incompetent losers"?

[Demsrule86]

27. How is this hit post still up? "incompetent losers"?

[pimpbot]

33. I apologize

That line was harsh and written out of fustration. Mostly because I live in a blue state with almost all democratic representation. We did recently lose the governorship due to what I would call an incompetent campaign. I've never voted against a democrat.

I say we are going to cave on the spending bill because in the past these bills have required democratic support to pass the house. There are enough crazy tea losers in the house that want to completely gut the government that Ryan usually needs some support from our side. My most recent reference is to the debt ceiling increase in September.

As for proof they aren't going to do anything about immigration and let the republicans off the hook on a government shutdown:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/democrats-unlikely-to-force-daca-vote-this-week-probably-averting-shutdown/2017/12/19/e8e59ca8-e441-11e7-ab50-621fe0588340_story.html?utm_term=.83ea215c5dc1

[FSogol]

36. Translation: The Republicans suck, but I wanna blame the Democrats!

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa....

[herding cats]

8. What Democrat is working with the Republicans on this?

You said,

At this point in history, there is absolutely no reason to work with the republicans on anything.

Who, what and where!?

[msongs]

9. repubs have the votes. dems not needed. no leverage there nt

[SunSeeker]

11. Are you trying to blame the GOP tax scam bill on Democrats?!

The debt ceiling agreement back in September did nothing to pave the way for the GOP tax scam bill.

The Dems had nothing to do with the GOP tax scam bill.

The bill passed along party lines 51-48 in the Senate tonight. Not a single Dem voted for it. And there was no procedural way Dems could stop the vote.


But you are bashing the Dems, not the GOP.

[gabeana]

18. Thank you

for sanity,
the GOP owns this

[Cosmocat]

30. Yeah ... LOTS to pick at the dems on, but this is a fantasy

nm

[radical noodle]

13. Look, pimpbot...

Democrats are doing things right. They can't stop the votes. What they can do, and have done, is to do interview after interview about how bad this tax bill is for average people and it's stuck to the GOP like glue now. A majority of people, including some trump voters, hate this bill. That's what we can do and that's what they have done and must continue to do.

No one should be whining right now. We should be standing up and supporting what they've done. Protest. Use your leverage to make a change because protests are all we have right at the moment.

[Tarheel_Dem]

14. I get so tired of coming here and having to read shit like this. "Incompetent losers"? Are you...

in the right place? One mega thread here is defending fucking Greens, and now this? It's too much.

[SunSeeker]

21. I'm tired of it too, Tarheel_Dem.

[FSogol]

37. +1 n/t

[Hekate]

62. It gets really, really old

[Tarheel_Dem]

16. Is this a hit & run? You posted 3 hours ago, and you have no further comments?

[Demsrule86]

23. Hit and run I think.

[GoCubsGo]

32. I think the "bot" part in his/her screen name is probably accurate, too.

[Hekate]

63. Yathink? Unless it's supposed to be all ironic and stuff.

[pimpbot]

34. I went to sleep

Sorry. I posted and expected to discuss, but it was 11PM my time. I didn't see any responses so I went to sleep and awoke to a whole bunch of craziness. I admit my language spurred that on, and should have chose my words better. I would rather debate the tactics our leadership is using than engage in a poster purity war.

[LanternWaste]

45. Then specifically why are you doing anything but that?

"I would rather debate the tactics..."

Then specifically why are you doing anything but that?

[Demsrule86]

22. Why I don't know...we have so much power and all...

I am sure that by criticising and driving the Dem numbers down...more GOP types can be elected and then you can write more posts like this one. It is of course as always the Democrat's fault (sarcasm). You know what, they do what they can. I said from the beginning that those who refused to vote for the Democratic nominee and a Democratic congress have blood on their hands. This includes 'leaders' like Sarandon, Turner etc. Did some think they could 'hold Democrats accountable which resulted in electing Republicans and face no consequences?

[pimpbot]

35. Not trying to drive numbers down

Do you think Kirsten came up with her plan to oust Franken in a vacuum? I would bet she ran that past the leadership first and they signed off. Things like that make me wonder why we eat our own so easily. They could have held similar press conferences and forcefully requested that Dump resign due to the allegations against him. Every. Day. Come out and talk about the women he has abused. Don't let it out of the news.

I'm probably the most political out of all of my friends. Most vote democratic but usually complain that we don't stand up for our selves and push back against the lies. It is a stacked deck with hate radio and false news but we still need to try.

The point to my original post was to point out how we always seem to help the republicans out of jams. This goes back to the last time they were shutting the government down around the holidays and ended up with the permanent bush tax cuts. We always start our negotiations on their side of the field.

I realize we are the minority, but so were they for a time and they gummed up the works pretty well for Obama. I guess the tax bill is their version of the ACA? I dont know but it is fustrating seeing reports iike this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/democrats-unlikely-to-force-daca-vote-this-week-probably-averting-shutdown/2017/12/19/e8e59ca8-e441-11e7-ab50-621fe0588340_story.html?utm_term=.83ea215c5dc1

They need to wake up and realize people DONT like what the republicans are doing. The tax scam bill is very unpopular. They could spin a shutdown very easily onto the republicans and make them even more unpopular (heck the GOP runs every branch, how can you blame democrats?). But we wont. We will cave and pass a spending bill, and probably wont get much of anything we want (DACA).

[radical noodle]

43. Whether you intend to or not..

it sure sounds like it. There IS a difference between Democrats and Republicans. Democrats really care about the people in this country. They still have ethics and values. It appears that you may want them to stash all that and be more like Republicans. Shutting down the government hurts people. Real people. It hurts the country. It isn't something to play with. I don't want to be a member of a party without ethics and morals, and without putting country above party.

Yeah, sometimes in my mind I wonder why Dems don't spread lies and make everyone miserable the way Republicans do, but there's a time and place for party vs. country and this is not one of those times. JMHO

[Demsrule86]

47. Pure supposition about Kirsten who is not on my presidential primary list... we don't help Repugs

if we can't stop them because we are in the minority. I see that attitude here quite often (not you but in general). We lost in 10 because some held 'Dems' feet to the fire and where did that get us? Six years with a Democratic president that had his hands tied. We need to support Democrats and give them the numbers they need to win the battle with Republicans...and let's have reasonable expectations...the idea that Pres. Obama failed because he couldn't get single payer was not true...he got what he could. I hope to hell we can save it.

The tax bill was hated but they forced it through anyway. You have to understand that we have a limited ability to stop them. The Repugs were in the minority for two years... during that time, we got the ACA and stimulus through...after that they had the House...which gave them a means to stop things...if we get the House in 18, we have the same opportunity, but our voters have to support Democrats and posts like yours, regardless of intention, depress the vote in my opinion. It demoralizes folks and plays to the parties are all the same meme. Now, I realize that may not be your intention but that is the outcome in my opinion.

[Tatiana]

25. We're in the minority. There's only so much you can do.

But I agree that most Democrats lack the the killer instinct that Republicans always seem to have.

[Demsrule86]

28. You need power to go in for the kill.

The GOP is getting done to them what they did in 10...going to be a blood bath in 18 of GOP elected if we stick together and vote the GOP bastards out of office... and we will.

[Tatiana]

50. We had it and we still acquiesed to the other side.

All in the name of "reaching across the aisle."

And where did our great overtures get us? What did Obama's multiple invitations of Republicans to the White House get us?

Not a damn thing.

It's a disservice to not only Democratic constituents, but the general American public that we were 6 years into a Democratic presidency before the administration finally realized there was never going to be any support or votes coming from the Republican side to do anything of benefit to the American public.

In less than a year, they have essentially robbed us of a Supreme Court seat, robbed us of our tax money, stolen our children's and grandchildren's future and all we can say is "we're not the ones in power!" They have undone most of the positive change that was built over 8 years of a Democratic Presidency.

We're still trying to play by rules the other side abandoned a long time ago.

[Demsrule86]

58. When did we reach across the aisle? We got what we could and then the left left who whine even now

about Democrats punished Obama (and all Americans) by staying home and allowing the Repugs to take the House before the census...so stupid...game over for progressive policy for the next six years. Name me an instance where we forfeited any policy moves in order to reach across the aisle...because it is bull shit. Yeah they robbed us of a SCOTUS nominee and how many progressives even bothered to vote in 14, we lost the Senate...Obama was such a disappointment and all since they sabotaged him in 10 and he couldn't make progressive dreams come true...don't you know.(sarcasm)and that sealed our fate regarding SCOTUS...notice a pattern here? You have to win elections to get what you want...and holding Dems feet to the fire as some are wont to call it makes us lose elections and then the usual suspects whine about Democrats (no not saying you do). We only had two years for a positive change...because of disloyal and stupid voters...who yawned and said the parties are the same (they are not). We were robbed in 16 but by whom...our fair weather friends- supposed progressives-(and Russia of course had an impact) once more abandoned Democrats...you expect Democrats to get much done...and in order to do that they have to be supported by all progressive voters...or it won't happen ever. So vote Democratic in all situations...you might be surprised about what a party that is supported can do.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

42. Democrats.aren't.killers

[LanternWaste]

46. What you see as a killer instinct, I see as a lack of character.

What you see as a killer instinct, I see as a lack of character, a lack of honesty, a lack of integrity...

[RandiFan1290]

31. Sweet Georgia Brown!

[spanone]

38. Shut It Down

[member12]

88. Shut It Down

^^ It's the only way to come from a position of strength.

SHUT. IT. DOWN.

[LanternWaste]

44. I think you've been played. No Democratic congressman or Senator supported the bill.

I think you've been played. No Democratic congressman or Senator supported the bill.

"In fact I already saw our "leaders" state that we will..."
You'll supply the relevant source material, yes? Or is that something you saw merely in your own imagination? Were I a betting money, five'll get you twenty it was the second option.

Incompetent losers, indeed...

[SidDithers]

48. Oh FFS...

Sid

[SunSeeker]

65. Hi Sid!

I second that emotion!

[BoneyardDem]

49. A majority of the Americans do no like this tax bill...the message has been hammered

Republican Senators have stated that they understand MOST people don't like it, but once it's in place they are confident everyone will change their minds. How is that interpreted by you as Dems caving?

Is this the new 2018 talking point? I've seen a few of the "fall on our own swords" posts in the last few days. This messaging is getting pretty obvious imho.

[guillaumeb]

51. Or allowed themselves to be played.

2 parties, playing by different rules.

[Hekate]

64. Wrong

[ClarendonDem]

53. Debt ceiling and the deficit

Those issues were super important when President Obama was in office, not so much now.

[RobinA]

80. Thats Always

the way. It’s almost laughable it’s so predictable.

[old guy]

55. Be careful.

I had a post removed for making comments like that.

[RobinA]

81. Me Too

I think we’re supposed to agree with Democrats no matter what.

[old guy]

93. Yup.

[pnwmom]

57. The debt ceiling should always be lifted and shouldn't be a political football.

The time to debate about the cost of a bill is before it's passed. Once we've incurred our debt it's too late to threaten not to pay it back.

[Generic Brad]

59. We play chess, they clear the board with a hammer

They are not playing a game. The Republicans are wielding a wrecking ball and trying to destroy us. Our next move should be to either whip out a giant magnet or give them a dirty swift kick to the nuts.

[RKP5637]

78. That, is the only thing they understand. Many democrats are too meek IMO. We now need an

army of kick-ass democrats IMO.

[SharonClark]

60. Nonsense. I suspect you know less about politics than you think.

[pimpbot]

74. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer

But I've always voted democrat and supported local candidates. My state was one of the few where Clinton beat out "didnt vote".

http://brilliantmaps.com/did-not-vote/

[Hekate]

61. Repeat after me: Democrats are a MINORITY party. We HAVE no "leverage." Nobody "caves"...

Please point out who in the Democratic Party in the House or Senate has voted for ANYthing put forward by the GOP. Which Democrats have provided a swing vote?

Thanks to the much-reviled Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, Democrats are holding the line and giving the Republicans NOTHING.

If you want the situation to change, work in your own district and state to elect Democrats to the House and Senate. That's it.

[pimpbot]

70. They voted to raise the debt ceiling

for starters. Next up is voting for the continuing resolutions. Those needed 60 to break filibuster in senate. First we demanded action on DACA, that didn't happen. Now we are again demanding it "next year".

Remember when the republicans shut down the government? Remember how everyone was so giddy that they were going to lose bigly because of it? Yea, look what we have now. 99% of the time they vote lockstep. Not saying we should aspire to become republicans, but in the current climate, until we get rid of Dump and his band of goons, democrats need to make a pact to stick together and not give an inch.

GOP wants a spending bill? They are going to have to compromise with democrats. Unfortunately whenever we compromise it seems they get 80% of what they wanted and we get 20% of what we wanted.

My state is all blue except for one member of the house of reps. We lost the governorship because of a poor candidate and a poor campaign. I still voted for the democrat because even the worst democrat is better than the best republican.

[Hekate]

89. So are you pushing for a government shutdown? Really?

As for the rest -- just reread what I wrote about bwing a minority party.

[JHan]

68. The fuck, what hogwarts incantation were Democrats supposed to unleash to get "leverage"..????

Have you completely forgotten the context of that "compromise"

You know , I knew i Just KNEW someone would find SOME way to blame Democrats for the tax Bill...

I didn't expect it to take this surreal route though...

Points for originality I guess

[Hortensis]

69. Garbage, Pimpot. Such contempt for Democrats

is amazingly unearned. What sources are you reading that you come here with this kind of viewpoint?

[pimpbot]

71. The contempt is for the spineless leadership

I would love to see people like Elizabeth Warren, Al Franken, Chris Van Hollen, Adam Shiff take on larger roles. Unfortunately one of them was railroaded out.

The latest CR is perfect evidence. They could have filibustered until the republicans added DACA and removed the Medicaid provision to force them to deal with the massive amount this tax scam is adding to the debt. Nope, didn't do it. Vote for the CR and high tail it out of washington.

[Hortensis]

91. You agree with all our Republican friends.

Adam Schiff and Elizabeth Warren BOTH called on Franken to resign. Van Hollen just 3 days ago refused to say he should not resign.

Actually, close to 3/4 of the Democratic senate let it be known they felt he needed to resign, only somewhat more than 2/3 took a firm public position.

Vox:

As sexual harassment persists as a national flashpoint, Capitol Hill has come under scrutiny as a breeding ground for this kind of behavior. A concentration of the nation’s most powerful men and women, congressional staffers and lawmakers have been hearing rumors of bombshell sexual harassment reports to come, possibly implicating upward of 20 or 30 lawmakers on both sides of the aisle. The notion has raised an important question in a body known for being both archaic and arcane, especially on matters of transparency and accountability: Will Congress be able to credibly address sexual harassment against its own members?

Franken knows why he had to resign. He could have waited for the investigation of 8 charges of she-said/he-apologized and partly denied, given blanket coverage by the national press (instead of Trump) over several days.

What I don't understand is how anyone who approved what all these people have worked to accomplish, who shared their beliefs, could feel the way you do. That you do, that who and what they are means nothing, blows my mind. Are you sure you belong in the Democratic Party?

And, Franken gave 3 speeches in the senate in the past few days. If you're such an admirer and ifyou listened to any of them, how do you justify using him to attack the party?

[dflprincess]

72. We're keeping our powder dry

I don't know for what, but I imagine that's the excuse.

[mcar]

73. Another episode of "blaming Dems for Rs atrocities"

Sorry, I'll pass.

[question everything]

75. Agree. And, as we've seen before, sometimes these decisions backfire on us

when we are in the minority. Look at the filibuster.

[LiberalFighter]

76. As a minority party it does not have many arrows in the quiver it can use.

[RKP5637]

79. We had everything when Obama first started his first term, and then progressively lost it. I'm not

blaming it on Obama, but it's a damn shame we lost everything.

[mcar]

82. We lost it, in part, because purists on the left

denigrated everything Obama and the Ds did as not good enough. That, added to the Rs lies and media complicity, did us in.

I sure hope we remember that in 2018 and beyond.

[RKP5637]

83. It's a hard lesson! I hope so too! n/t

[mcar]

85. ...

[LenaBaby61]

87. I sure hope we remember that in 2018 and beyond.

That's IF Dem votes are all collected and counted in 2018's Mid-terms.

[LiberalFighter]

94. We only had a short window of time to make anything happen.

Then Republicans had control of both chambers.

[RKP5637]

95. Yep, it would have been far different if that window had not closed so quickly. n/t

[obnoxiousdrunk]

84. Wow you did

manage to get 12 reds for this drivel.

[member12]

86. Screw it. Shut the government down if we have to.

Don't cave on reinstating DACA.