Mormons perform baptisms on Holocaust victims

[left-of-center2012]

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) —
Mormons are posthumously baptizing Holocaust victims as well as grandparents of public figures like Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton and Steven Spielberg, despite church rules intended to restrict the ceremonies to a member's ancestors ...

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Proxy baptisms are tied to a core church teaching that families spend eternity together, but the baptisms do not automatically convert dead people to Mormonism. Under church teachings, the rituals provide the deceased a choice in the afterlife to accept or reject the offer of baptism.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only major religion that baptizes the dead, and the ritual has contributed to struggles by the faith to combat the mischaracterization of its beliefs.

The posthumous baptizing of Holocaust victims reopens Jewish wounds from being forced in the past to convert to Christianity or face death or deportation, Jewish genealogist Gary Mokotoff said.

Read more at:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/apnewsbreak-mormons-perform-baptisms-holocaust-victims-141749437.html

[still_one]

1. They have been doing this for quite sometime.

[left-of-center2012]

3. ...

"After discussions with Mokotoff and other Jewish leaders, the LDS church in 1995 established a rule barring baptisms of Holocaust victims
except in rare cases where they are direct ancestors.
It also bars proxy baptisms on celebrities."

[hlthe2b]

6. Historically, yes, but I guess they paused for a few years...

I don't blame Jewish descendants for being upset.

[still_one]

20. Sure, but no much that can be done

[TheDebbieDee]

46. It was Lawrence Odonnell or Keith Olbermann who

Who announced that Jews had started to retaliate by performing belated bar mitzvahs or some other Jewish ceremony for long deceased Mormons!

[hlthe2b]

51. LOL

[csziggy]

57. But did they circumcize the dead?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. It won't actually DO anything, but it's extremely disrespectful.

Why can't people leave other people's religious and cultural traditions alone?

[whathehell]

8. They do it with people of ALL religiions not Mormon

They actually mean well by it..They think they are "saving" people.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. Yes, and it's disrespectful to all of them.

[whathehell]

14. I disagree..The people in question are dead & these Mormons do not intend any

disrespect, quite the opposite, so given their good intent and the fact that one can't stop people's private prayers for the dead, it seems of very small consequence..

[LanternWaste]

21. Applying your premise consistently...

Applying your premise (the people in question are dead, trivializing consequence, good intent, et.al.) consistently, we should then be happy (or at the least, unconcerned) when the interred are dug up without permission or certification for use as medical cadavers.

Though I imagine brand new qualifiers will be introduced post hoc.

[Mariana]

37. You're equating saying some words with digging up a corpse.

They are not the same thing.

Tell me, does it make you angry when a Christian prays for the soul of a dead atheist? Many of them do so.

[Raster]

52. I agree. Born and raised in the church and baptised for the dead...

...and the premise is that these physically deceased "souls" have somehow acquiesced to being baptized by proxy. The understanding is that "souls" not baptized are doomed to hell. In essence, if you don't willingly give your "soul" during your life, the Mormons will "pick you up on the afterlife rebound."

[Iggo]

24. Yep, it does nothing except shit on the memory of Holocaust victims.

Way to go, Mormons!

[pnwmom]

40. If you don't believe in their beliefs, then how would it hurt you? It's not some kind of

insult or curse.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

45. It doesn't hurt anything, and I wouldn't be personally offended -

just amused (they won't baptize me anyhow because I'm divorced and they don't bother with anyone, alive or dead, who isn't married and reproducing). I'm glad I don't take them seriously because I wouldn't want to be stuck on some planet with a bunch of Mormons. But I do see why Holocaust survivors and their relatives would find this practice to be disrespectful.

[MontanaMama]

4. So years ago...

I can recall my very Catholic mother having fits because her estranged brother had recently converted to Mormonism. Even more horrifying to her, he had begun baptizing their Irish Catholic deceased relatives into the Mormon Church. She was crying, losing sleep and generally falling apart over it. It was a very big deal to her. I'd recently left the Catholic church myself which was upsetting to her too and I kept reminding her that these folks were dead! They'd been baptized Catholic and died Catholic, hoping to make her feel better but to no avail. I think the priest at her church finally simmered her down a little bit. Mormons have been doing this crap forever. It's weird, I think, but to each their own I guess.

[hlthe2b]

7. Perhaps some of those long dead relatives should come back to haunt the Mormon "adopters"

[MontanaMama]

17. Sounds like a

kick ass B movie to me!!

[avebury]

5. Imagine what their response would be if members of another religion

went through their process to bring dead Mormons or dead people of other religions into their religion. Heads would explode.

[2naSalit]

60. Especially if it was

devil worship or something they think is absolutely evil...

[Old Vet]

9. They need to cut this shit out, They have been doing this on and off for awhile...........

[whathehell]

15. No one "owns" the dead..How can one stop private prayers or

ceremonies for a dead person?....

It's a Tempest in a teapot, afaic.

[LanternWaste]

22. Again, your premise is inaccurate. Corpses are legally considered quasi-property.

Again, your premise is inaccurate.

Corpses are legally considered quasi-property. Following burial, the body is considered part of the ground in which it is placed. After a body has been buried, it is considered to be in the custody of the law; therefore, disinterment is not a matter of right. The disturbance or removal of an interred body is subject to the control and direction of the court.



Yours is a most dramatic lack of relevant knowledge, afaic, part II.

(space provided below free of charge to move your goal-posts again...)

[FreeState]

34. There are no corpses involved - what are you talking about?

Seriously, you think they are taking dead bodies and baptizing them?

What the?

[Crunchy Frog]

44. One can call it out as the dick move it is.

[whathehell]

58. Um, okay, if you say so..

I think the 'intent" should be considered, and since it's benign and the people ARE dead, it seems like much ado about nothing, but feel free to differ.

[MineralMan]

11. What claptrap nonsense.

[nini]

12. a cousin of mine baptized my grandparents who were devout Catholics

I thought my mom's head was going to explode. It is very disrespectful though it really doesn't mean a damn thing.

[whathehell]

16. It's a diverse world and society..

People of different faiths "praying" for your dead relatives is one price of it, and given the alternatives, I'd say it's a very small one to pay.

[nini]

56. Why the eye roll?

[whathehell]

59. Because, all things considered,

it strikes me as a petty complaint.

[nini]

62. Not as petty as you taking the time to reply with an eyeroll

you should probably just stroll on by next time.

Let me add.. dissing my mother's reaction to something doesn't sit well with me AT ALL. Gotta go before I get banned.

[whathehell]

64. Sure, honey..whatever you say..

[janterry]

13. I find it disagreeable, too

but if you (or I) develop a family connection to a Mormon, we're likely to be baptized. It's the only way we're going to get on our 'after-planet' and the 'real-believer-Mormon' is trying to ensure our afterlife.

Personally, I hope the planet I land on resembles earth

[Orange Free State]

31. Actually I wouldnt mind my own planet right now...

...except no robocalls, nasty people, cats, mosquitos, and cold winters. If I can swing a deal like that, I won’t complain.

[nini]

66. LOL

I feel you on that one

[Mariana]

35. Most of my family tree have been baptized

because we're distantly related to a famous Mormon. I understand the motivation and that they believe they're doing the dead a favor by giving them the choice to be Mormon, which they wouldn't have had otherwise.

[sdfernando]

18. Whats good for the goose....

Other religions should start baptizing dead mormons into their religions. I'm sure the mormons would be 100% OK with it.

[NightWatcher]

19. Ah, the shit done for invisible beings. Don't we look stupid.

"The best argument against religion is to have a five minute conversation with a religious person" I think Bill Nye is credited with that.

[Iggo]

23. I just waved my magic wand and un-baptized all of them.

Just as real and effective as the baptism.

[Mariana]

26. Exactly. Why do people freak out over this?

If you don't believe in their mumbo-jumbo, what difference does it make?

[Iggo]

29. I hate it when Mormons shit on the memory of Holocaust victims.

But then it's just another thing to add to the list.

[Mariana]

32. The Mormons think they're doing a good deed for them.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how providing them with the option to be Mormons in the afterlife is "shitting on the memory" of the deceased. I don't think it's any more offensive than the baptism of infants, which is commonly done.

[Iggo]

39. I accept your apology. (n/t)

[StevieM]

47. Actually, Mormons don't baptize infants. LDS children don't get baptized until they are 8. (eom)

[whathehell]

68. They also don't consign "unbelievers" to Hell

or "punish" them with anything like fire or physical suffering..There intent in baptising them is simply to bring them to a BETTER place, not to keep them from hell fire.

[OnDoutside]

49. I think it's pretty offensive in general, and pretty disgusting in this particular case. The victims

were massacred for being Jewish, and then these numbnuts heap further indignity upon their memory.

[whathehell]

63. Exactly..Why that doesn't seem to matter

to the "offended" here tells me a lot about them.

[whathehell]

61. Wow..Now who's being "disrespectful"?

and what an absurd allegation since That's obviously, NOT how they see it and why their positive intent is not only being completely ignored but SHAT upon tells me something about you.

A sign of maturity is being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes...I'd suggest you try it.

[Iggo]

70. Fuck. Them.

It's needlessly cruel and hurtful to the families of the victims. Where's their introspection? Where's their maturity? Where's their putting oneself into another's shoes?

Nope.

Fuck 'em.

[whathehell]

72. Aww...Feel better now?

Growing up is hard to do.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

33. I think that it's just the general concept of it

I'm Agnostic, so I'm not a "believer" and don't really care much about organized religion and, at the end of the day, a bizarre ritual by members of one religious sect doesn't really amount to anything per se, but a lot of people do take their faith seriously and if I were a relative/ancestor of one of these people, I'd be somewhat perturbed. The idea of posthumously "converting" people to your religion just seems distasteful, if not disrespectful to the dead. It seems to me sort of like vandalizing somebody's grave or digging up their corpse. Or as somebody who is Transgender, it would sort of be like me dying and having a family member(s) dress me up as a guy and "deadname" me at my funeral.

[Mariana]

36. The Mormons believe the posthumous "conversion" is voluntary.

I think maybe a lot of people don't understand that, and think the Mormons are making people of these other faiths into Mormons. The dead aren't forced into being Mormons, they merely get to decide whether to be one.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

41. So what are they actually accomplishing?

Basically just "evangelizing to the dead"? I admit that the entire concept leaves me befuddled.
I still stand by my original comments, though.

[Mariana]

42. Evangelizing to the dead is a good way to put it.

Most religious rituals leave me befuddled. I don't think this one is particularly weird or offensive.

[Raster]

55. It did not used to be "voluntary." This was an accomdation acquired in the last 25 years or so.

Born and raised in the Church and baptized for the dead.

[whathehell]

65. Precisely...

It's not as if we can regulate people's private thoughts , prayers or rituals for the dead --I mean, can we get a grip.

[Mariana]

25. "...the rituals provide the deceased a choice in the afterlife..."

So, it doesn't require them to be Mormon, it just gives them the option. Why is this a problem?

[no_hypocrisy]

27. Hey, if *I* can't find my relatives from the Olde Country via genealogy,

neither can they. My ancestors are safe.

[StevieM]

48. Actually, Mormons are remarkably talented in the field of genealogy.

You would be surprised by how effective they are at tracking down ancestors.

[whathehell]

69. True. n/t.

[Orange Free State]

28. So why not get a mohel to...

...posthumously circumcise Joseph Smith? You have to have some fun with this.

The proxy marriage thing for the dead is weird too, but people will go along with anything if it is told to them at an early enough age.

[Iggo]

30. Proxy marriage for the dead? Now we're getting somewhere!

I say we gay-marry every one of them fuckers.

It'll be like a reverse Proposition (H)8.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Disrepectful.

Why not just go to Auschwitz or Dachau and piss on the ground? I am sure there are some Jewish cemeteries waiting for them to come knock down headstones. For those who are squawking about "good intentions", how ironic given where the road of "good intentions" leads.

[TheBlackAdder]

43. A Scientologist or Pastafarian doing it would have just as much credence or validity.

[hatrack]

50. Blind roommates trying to fistfight over which shade of pink to paint the bathroom . . .

[Raster]

53. Point!

[sofa king]

54. Seriously, who cares?

The Mormon Church is the crack-smoking tagger of the theological world. They just spray painted their gang tag on the side of of the Jewish Museum of World History, and now they're wandering off to score some more crack.

You could tell the crackhead not to come back, but he will anyway. And he will remain as tragi-comic as he is, and he will keep doing the stupid shit that he does. But ultimately the tagger's existence is his own punishment, and it's unlikely that anyone can harm him worse than he's already harming himself.

[MosheFeingold]

71. I don't care.

I am not offended.

I have real things to worry about.

[Kirk Lover]

67. What an incredible waste of time.