Senator Gillibrand should be ashamed of railroading Senator Franken out of the Senate.

[madaboutharry]

Along with Chuck Shumer who also should be ashamed for hounding Sen. Franken the entire day before he resigned.

The way I see it, democrats are plagued by a need to be liked and a self-destructive habit of worrying what other people think of them.
They are hung up on appearing to "take the high road' and to have a superior moral standing. It is a philosophy that serves no one, it only serves their own egos.

Sen. Franken should have been permitted an ethics investigation. The failure to follow this process is a disgrace. If it was determined that he did not deserve his seat in the senate, he could have resigned at that time. Prematurely forcing him out hurt democracy.

[dewsgirl]

1. Damn right they should!

[Eliot Rosewater]

2. And Democrats simply CANT win ever, and you are proving it.

They do what is actually an overreaction with Franken but it is the RIGHT thing sort of, showing deference for victims (realize I believe the ONLY thing he did was put his hand on a waist and is completely innocent) and they lose, if they dont do it they lose and the GOP wins while supporting a serial assaulter in the WH.

This is a perfect example of how badly we are fucked up and I dont see a way out.

The party that bends over backwards to show respect for women, loses. What does that tell us?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

111. Nope, the right thing to do was give Franken a fair hearing...

was that really too much to ask?!

[Eliot Rosewater]

112. Like I sad, Dems are in a no win with certain folks.

If they defend him they will be attacked for not sticking up for women, if they dont defend him this happens

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

114. Forcing Franken to defend against sexual harassment/assault charges IS sticking up for women...

as it shows Democrats take those charges seriously. Who would rightfully criticize giving Franken, as the accused in this case, a fair hearing?

[Pagan0]

156. fairness for Franken

Absolutely right!

[Rene]

174. agree

[Susan Calvin]

164. Yep. nt

[Alice11111]

205. Yep

[NCTraveler]

3. I see no reason for her to be ashamed.

What did she do to you this morning?

[SoCalMusicLover]

5. What Did Al Franken Do To Her?

I wonder how she'll feel if we lose that seat next year.

Oh yeah, she'll get over it, and probably plan her Presidential campaign.

[NCTraveler]

99. No possibility for a win?

The hyperbole and grand assumptions needed in order to maintain such outrage is impressive.

[ollie10]

113. I think the word IF was used

[lunamagica]

152. Oh, the irony in this reply...

The only hyperbole and grand assumption I see here comes from you

[KPN]

166. +1!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

115. Not a damn thing!!

[maddiemom]

80. It's what she did to ALL of us.

[NCTraveler]

98. Leave me out of your "ALL" of us.

I see no time for this ill timed attack on Democrats. It's nothing more than enabling Republicans. "If she did it so can I" is a horrid excuse. There is nothing more than that here.

[rzemanfl]

105. So attacking Franken based on accusations was a "well-timed" attack? n/t

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

116. Count me in.

[maddiemom]

165. You took my post as an ATTACK on the DEMOCRATS?

WTF? I'll gladly leave you out of my attack on Gillibrand, however.

[rainin]

178. Apparently an attack on Franken

wasn't an attack on democrats, but calling out Gillibrand is an ATTACK ON DEMOCRATS. WTF? I guess we are supposed to just roll over so as not to appear disloyal in your eyes.

Note to all current and future democrats:
1. due process is not a democratic value
2. when we eat our own, be QUIET

[BlancheSplanchnik]

188. 😞. Due process. Discernment between normal ppl and predators.

What Gillibrand did stuns me. So sodden with “Purity”—-that it hurts innocent people, renews prejudices against women, demonstrates that hearsay tops investigation.

And stuck a nail-filled pipe-bomb in the office of one of our most well liked senators and most effective voices against the repuke lie-machine.

Nice going. 😩🤬

[Alice11111]

204. ...did our enemies work for them.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

214. You mean influence Gillibrand?

Who knows. 😑

[Alice11111]

234. I have noticed that "logic" too. Circular, self serving, and analogoys to Trumpian...

double standards, no internal inconsistencies.

[loyalsister]

4. "plagued by the need to be liked"

Politicians are concerned about what their constituents think of them because it's part of getting elected and holding themselves accountable.

[brooklynite]

6. Nobody denied him an ethics investigation. He voluntarily chose to resign.

If your assertion is that he couldn't stand up to pressure from his fellow Senators (who, according to people here, were either motivated by personal ambition or were so week that they had to "follow the herd" ), perhaps that says something.

[Bluepinky]

8. Not true, he wasnt going to resign until dozens of Democrats asked him to

With nearly every Democratic Senator against him, he knew he would be unable to do anything. He was originally planning to remain in place to await results of the ethics probe.

What Gillibrand and the others did to him was inexcusable. Gillibrand was so very wrong and should be ashamed.

[brooklynite]

9. He wasn't going to be able to "do" anything either way...

...unless you know he was threatened with losing his Committee assignments (he wasn't), he had exactly the same opportunity to make speeches and ask questions as before.

[Bluepinky]

73. Gillibrand was wrong to force out Franken, I have lost respect for her.

Meanwhile, nothing happens to Trump, who actually has assaulted women.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. There ya go with those damned facts!

[whathehell]

83. Then hold them ALL responsible, Bernie & Elizabeth Warren too, not just Gillibrand..

Just sayin'.

[orleans]

160. i do. but gillibrand started sounding her

mob justice alarm.
the rest of them joined in.
shame on them all.

if they hadn't joined in with her the public could view them as not defending women or protecting them. it was a hard call for the rest of them. obviously they were all looking out for their own asses and reputations.

good for them all.

i won't forget. i won't forgive their selfishness and cowardliness

[whathehell]

168. I agree that it was a bad call...I called his office myself to

urge him not to resign. It's just a sad, dumb thing all around. They should have held out for the Ethics Investigation he himself called for...I don't really understand it either.

[calimary]

190. I certainly do.

I fell out of love with Elizabeth Warren last year. But that’s another story.

[standingtall]

11. He did not volunteer to resign

he was forced to after 30+ Democrats demanded he resign and you could've went ahead a added every repuke to the list too. The numbers would be there for expulsion even before an ethics investigation it's a simple matter of math.

[brooklynite]

18. None of the Democrats (and for that matter non of the Republicans) threatened to expel him.

[standingtall]

21. They would have if he refused to resign

at that point all the repukes would have to do to call the bluff of the 30+ Democrats who called for him resign is request he be expelled.

[brooklynite]

24. ...and conversely would have voted to seat Roy Moore (another story I've heard here)?

"We all know" is not solid evidence.

[joshcryer]

12. Are you seriously saying that Franken's office could do any business...

...government business, with those who called on him to resign after they had done so?

If he refused he would not be able to get anything done anyway.

He was forced out.

And there was no investigation.

[LanternWaste]

15. I pretend 'coercion' and 'volunteer' are synonymous as well.

I pretend 'coercion' and 'volunteer' are synonymous as well.

"Perhaps that says something" also... "shrug:

[brooklynite]

7. When Senator Gillibrand introduced the Military Justice and Improvement Act...

...to protect military personnel from sexual assault, that was just Presidential ambition and opportunism, right?

[standingtall]

13. Everything ever done sense the day she took office has had

Presidential ambition and opportunism as part of the equation. Some things could be both good for her Presidential ambitions as well as the party and the country. The Franken situation only helped her get some enthusiastic supporters for the primary and hurt the party as a whole.

[brooklynite]

14. Tell us, which prospective candidate meets your exacting specifications?

[standingtall]

19. For starters candidates who do not

manufacture wedge issues to divide Democrats for repukes to take advantage of just to advance their own political careers.

[LiberalLovinLug]

26. +1000

[PatSeg]

29. I agree

I don't expect perfection from any candidate, but politicizing victims of sexual abuse and throwing colleagues under the bus for one's own political gain is too much for me.

[brooklynite]

32. Care to name any?

[standingtall]

41. I can tell who is not

All 30+ Senators who called for Franken to resign without due process. I do not need to identify the candidate that can unify the party until 2020.

[brooklynite]

45. I'm sure running nobody against Donald Trump will be a winning strategy

If your premise that all these Senators are ambitious wanna-be Presidential candidates, they'll be spending every minute fundraising and organizing to win in 2020. You'd better get busy finding an alternative.

[standingtall]

50. I was not aware that

every single Democratic politician in the country came out and called for Franken to resign. Democrats have ran Senators over the last four Presidential election cycles anyway. Maybe you forgot we use to have nominees who were not Senators too. Maybe time to elect a Governor or something again anyway. Could even be a wild card like a military general emerging. One not happy with Trump of course. There will be no shortage of people willing to line up and run against an unpopular President. I do not need to get busy finding one one will emerge.

[brooklynite]

97. Silens doesn't indicate support. The only person who called on Franken to stay was Joe Manchin...

...that's a candidacy that'll go over well here.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

124. Some here (not me!) consider ALL Democrats to be progressives, so maybe he will "go over well"

with those people who take the "Big Tent Party" to extremes.

[standingtall]

175. No matter how many times you repeat that talking point

you will not change my mind.

[Trumpocalypse]

44. I remember reading the same BS about Hillary Clinton

when she was in the Senate. How come what ever a woman does is opportunism and ambition?

[standingtall]

53. When did Hilary

throw a former Democratic President underthe bus? After taking his endorsements for 20 years? Gillibrand is much more comparable to Joe Lieberman than she is to Hilary.

[Trumpocalypse]

69. Yet she has voted more to oppose Trump

than any other Senator. Not so much like Lieberman.

[standingtall]

74. And her vote stopped exactly

what? She does not get Brownie points from me for doing what is expected. Much like Lieberman turned on Al Gore when Lieberman wanted to run for President. After Gillibrand saw her political opening she apparently thought it was beneficial for her to throw one of only two former 2 term Democratic Presidents in last 65 years under the bus.

[Trumpocalypse]

82. Again it is wrong when a woman does it

How sexist.

[standingtall]

88. What are you talking about

? That's you big come back? To say it's sexist? Try coming with something of substance if your going to defend Gillibrand. Gillibrand hasn't stopped any of Trumps agenda anymore than any other Democrat has. Her voting against some of Trump's cabinet officials that would've gotten through anyway is next to meaningless. She has caused more harm than good by giving rise to wedge issues to divide the party when the party needs to be unified now more than ever.

[Trumpocalypse]

100. Votes in the Senate do mean something

posturing doesn't. Somehow I don't think you'd be dismissing them so casually if it was a male Senator.

[standingtall]

122. Her votes against Trumps cabinet

officials that would've gotten through anyway were next to meaningless and the male Senators who voted against them were just as meaningless. Four years ago when the filibuster was in effect it would've meant something, but not now when repukes have the majority.

[Trumpocalypse]

144. Yet she still has the highest voting record against Trump

You can call that meaningless because that doesn't fit your demonization of her.

[standingtall]

145. She has not vote against Trumps major pieces of legislation

anymore than any other Democrat has. Not a single Democrat in the house or Senate voted for any of Trumps or the republicans healthcare repeal bills or tax bill. She has not done anymore to stop Trumps agenda than any other Democrat has. Speaking the truth is not demonization. She has already demonstrated a willingness to stab her allies in the back. That is not a character trait I value in either male or female politicians.

[Trumpocalypse]

181. Or she was standing up for a principle

that she's been fighting for since she's been in the Senate and didn't abandon that principle for a member of her own party. Bernie Sanders also called for Franken's resignation, but I don't see you demonizing him. But of course he's a man not a woman.

[standingtall]

182. Then you have not paid

attention to my postings. Bernie Sanders is a shameless political opportunist in his own right. Was she standing up for her principles when she had President Clinton campaign for her? And took his endorsements for 20 years?

[Trumpocalypse]

183. And maybe he was standing up for a principle too.

I want public servants who stand up for principles even when it hurts an ally to do so. If not we are just as bad as the republicans. The democratic party needs to be bigger than just one Senator, otherwise it is just another cult of personality.

[standingtall]

185. Bologna

In a union job an employee should not be terminated or forced to resign without just cause and provable just cause. Not just because an employer or another employee alleges something. Your clearly not consistent with Union values when it comes to politics. The Democratic party is bigger than 1 Senator, but it is not bigger than justice. When Democrats force someone to resign without due process they subvert justice.

[Trumpocalypse]

192. That's a legal standard

not a political one.

[standingtall]

194. Oh So you need legal standards to define your principles

or values? It's only became a legal standard after unions fought for it to be law. It was a principle first.

[Trumpocalypse]

197. Legal standards and political considerations

are two different things. Grow up and learn the difference.

[standingtall]

200. Already been proven to you on

this thread that due process is also extended to elected officials by myself and others. Obviously you have conflicting values and principles when it comes to politics and if you cannot reconcile that that is not our problem it's yours. We are fully grown. Enough to have a sense of justice and to know the difference between right and wrong.


Political considerations cannot be divorced from justice and even if it could Democrats have gained nothing in this case in fact it's a net loss. Now there will have to be a special election in 2018 when Franken wasn't up for re-election until 2020. Senate Democrats have given republicans a free play at that seat. There is no way this is a political winner. Even if we retain the seat in 2018 repukes have nothing to lose there, but we do.

[Trumpocalypse]

229. Nothing has been proven

Just saying something over and over doesn't make it true.

Political reality and considerations are not governed by same principles as legal considerations. To think so is just incredibly naïve.

[Alice11111]

209. Yup, and then she thanked the Clintons in the same

way she thanked Franken.

[Alice11111]

226. Really, raising your pinky to vote is the least expected. LEAD!

Protect our leaders, like Franken, and defend Democracy against the Repubs.

[StevieM]

243. I am deeply disappointed in Sen. Gillibrand. I was excited back in 2009 when she got the appointment

to HRC's old Senate seat. I was also glad to see her oppose Trump's cabinet nominees, as well as Christopher Wray for the FBI.

But she has really disappointed me lately. She didn't treat Al Franken fairly and she is rewriting history when it comes to Bill Clinton.

The comparison to Lieberman is interesting. I have been thinking of him lately. During the primaries HRC was turned into Joe Lieberman in the minds of many voters, especially younger ones. That hurt us in the GE.

Of course, we would have won anyway--decisively--had it not been for Comey and the FBI.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

128. Women are allowed to be opportunistic and ambitious...

can be a GOOD quality in the right situations and BAD in others for EVERYONE... men, women, and anyone else, regardless of how they identify.

[Trumpocalypse]

143. True

But somehow they are the only ones called out for it.

[True Blue American]

172. I agree

[LanternWaste]

16. It's absurdly fascinating you consistently bring up arguments no one else has made to argue against.

It's absurdly fascinating you consistently bring up arguments no one else has made to argue against.

Self-validating... absurdly fascinating. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[brooklynite]

17. I was told she went after Franken because of her desire to be President...

...which this OP continues to throw out; the notion that she actually cares about sexual harassment, and has for a long period before Franken became an issue is conveniently ignored.

[Nevernose]

64. It could easily be both

People don’t get to positions of power like that — not Bernie Sanders, not Warren, not Harris, not Grassley, not Ted Cruz, not the Clintons, not anybody — without being able to play politics without playing rough. That includes Gillibrand AND Franken. They’re all politicians.

Genuinely caring and political opportunism are hardly mutually exclusive.

At the very least, it might have caused some internal bias Gillibrand, just as my liking of Franken makes me biased.

[kstewart33]

187. Well reasoned and said, Nevernose.

A balanced and perceptive comment.

[Trumpocalypse]

142. Well said!!! nt

[tikka]

254. I agree that she cares about sexual harassment

Both she and Franken were potential presidential candidates. IMO it was a case of killing two birds with one stone. Get an alleged harasser and eliminate a potential rival. The fact that Schumer was there to immediately back her up I find suspicious. Schumer would want her as a presidential candidate to protect his Wall St friends.

[brush]

31. That has nothing to do with the backstabbing of Franken.

She was gullible and fell for the repug hit job done on Franken.

She should have waited for the investigation Franken himself called for.

That senate seat is now vulnerable in 2018.

[brooklynite]

42. Can I get a vote here? is it "gullible" or "ambitious"?

[brush]

49. I'd say both. Her gulibility in falling for the repug hit job stymied her ambition for...

higher office.

And since we've already got a gullible Putin stooge in the White House, we certainly don't need

anyone else with that quality in the presidency.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

121. What's wrong with presidential ambition? That's not a problem as far as I'm concerned.

[ucrdem]

126. "in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger

ended up inside."

That's a pro tip from an old friend's dad.

https://www.jfklibrary.org/Research/Research-Aids/Ready-Reference/JFK-Quotations/Inaugural-Address.aspx

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

130. That's a decent tip, just not universally true, like most things in life.

[ucrdem]

131. It's more the principle than any truth.

Gillibrand's constituents will no doubt forget this but will Franken's, or anyone that ever liked Franken? It doesn't look good and this kind of thing is hard to shake.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

133. Okay, yes... not disagreeing with your main point at all.

[jalan48]

20. Primary her.

[brooklynite]

27. You've got a candidate, have you?

Or is that someone else's job?

[jalan48]

28. I'm sure there are great ones out there.

[brooklynite]

30. So, I'll put you down as "no"

..and I assume you have an equally acceptable Presidential candidate?

[jalan48]

34. Someone more in the mold of Al Franken would be perfect!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

134. Would love it if Franken moved to New York and ran for her Senate seat there...

put the issue front and center and let the voters decide.

[brush]

35. She can forget as far as a presidential run. Who wants a candidate who turns on fellow Dems?

Last edited Thu Dec 28, 2017, 03:01 AM - Edit history (1)

[brooklynite]

40. Plenty of folks willing to say who they won't vote for...

...apparently not a lot of altenatives.

[True Blue American]

218. I agree!

[PatSeg]

33. We have a lot of great prospects out there for sure

Unfortunately Franken was one of them, even though he said he wasn't interested.

[Exultant Democracy]

58. Is she yours? Are you expecting a job with her?

Have you ever been paid by her? Do you donate her money? Seems like you are bending over backward to excuse the inexcusable, just wondering where it comes from.

For someone who post about how unimportant opinions on DU are I’m the real world, I’m just puzzled by the Herculean effort you’ve been putting in to give her cover for her blatant opportunism.

[brooklynite]

94. No, no, no and no

I have no dealing with Kirsten Gillibrand other than voting for her. I'm not even on her mailing list (fun fact: from my my sources tells me, for an "ambitious" Presidential candidate she's pretty bad at going around endorsing and supporting other candidates to collect political chits).

Why am I speaking up for her? Perhaps because the same people who demand "due process" for Al Franken are happy to assign unsupported motives to her (and every other Woman Senator).

[mn9driver]

106. Her actions and words are quite enough.

They tell me all I need to know about what kind of democrat she believes she is. There are better democrats out there than her. Democrats who can handle context and complexity, and who don’t throw fellow democrats under the bus without due process.

[brooklynite]

107. I await your endorsement of one with breathless anticipation.

[mn9driver]

150. Sure. Al Franken.

That was easy.

[Skittles]

169. well-played, mn9driver

[Exultant Democracy]

118. Fair enough.

[ucrdem]

92. Chelsea and Caroline Kennedy have both been mentioned

as potential contenders should Gillibrand step aside in 2018:

http://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/politics/news/a9557/clinton-kennedy-chelsea-clinton-senate-race/

Who knows, her colleagues might decide one day that it's in everyone's best interest if she went away. It's happened.

[R B Garr]

127. +1, we know Hillary would be a great Senator. nt

[yardwork]

22. Singling out Gillibrand is pointless and sexist.

I'm not happy with what happened at all, but I blame everybody who asked Franken to resign.

Chuck Schumer is the Senate minority leader. He should have led, not followed. Bernie Sanders ran for president. He signed on with the mob against Franken. Where was Sanders' leadership? Senator Leahy, this is not your first rodeo. Where was your leadership?

[SCantiGOP]

23. I agree 100% yardwork

This forum stopped reliving the last Dem primary; it's time to retire this tired argument also.

[PatSeg]

36. This is not some old tired argument

An excellent progressive voice has been silenced and his career ruined for other people's political gain. It has set a precedent that is unhealthy and does not serve Democrats. Senator Franken deserves an apology and some members in the Senate need to do some serious soul searching.

[Trumpocalypse]

47. He's one Senator

there is a whole party and political movement to consider. Focusing on one person is just a cult of personality.

[brush]

59. One senator? You think the repugs will stop now that they know their hit jobs can work?

We should've backed Franken in calling for the investigation — ya know, a thing called due process.

Now Hannity and Roger Stone and other dirty tricks, repug operatives can target another Dem who's too effective, figuring gullible Dems will fall for sketchy allegations and anonymous accusers again and help them get rid of another Democrat.

[Trumpocalypse]

63. Due process is a legal standard

not a political one.

Stop getting upset over one Senator.

[brush]

68. You don't call an investigation into allegations justified? And I'm not gullible enough to think...

repug hit jobs won't be tried again.

Are you?

And FYI, one senate vote can make or break bills if you haven't been paying attention.

[Trumpocalypse]

71. Sure but that is a legal process

not a political one. Learn to tell the difference.

[brush]

72. Such BS. A senate ethics investigation functions as due process for accused senators.

[Trumpocalypse]

102. That is still a legal process

Not a political one. Learn the difference.

[brush]

120. And another thing, one senate vote can swing a bill either way, and Franken's seat will now...

be in play in 2018's special election (as was Sessions' seat in the recent Alabama senate election), where as before it wasn't up for re-election until 2020.

The repugs are already lining up to run for it so that one senate seat might become one more repug senate seat.

[Trumpocalypse]

141. It may be but

there were bigger political concerns.

[brush]

147. Different, but I doubt bigger if trump can be stopped in the Senate. It's a fight on all fronts.

Hope you understand that.

[Trumpocalypse]

180. Yes it is a fight on all fronts

And there is no sense of beating our chests over the loss of one person.

[brush]

186. Still not getting it. Dems helping throw out their own opened the gates to more repug hit jobs.

Plus, the Dems who participated damaged themselves.

Gillibrand's chances for 2020 are considerably damaged, as are those of others who were formerly well regarded.

Guess no one told them that circular firing squads should be avoided.

[Trumpocalypse]

193. No you're not getting it

Only in the cult of personality is anyone damaged. The party and the political considerations are bigger than one senator.

[brush]

195. Oh please. If anyone thinks Gillibrand herself is not damaged by her rush...

to judgment they're delusional.

Gillebrand's miscalculation will be even more acutely evident if McConnell refuses to seat the replacement until the 2018 special election, and God forbid the replacement senator loses that previously safe until 2020 to a repug.

[Trumpocalypse]

198. She has with some especially

those who cling to a cult of personality but not with those who either admire the principle or realize the politics of it.

And it is a bit sexist to single out one female senator when there were many male senators who called for Franken's resignation too.

[brush]

199. What cult of personality? Oh you mean like the Gillibrand one you belong to?

She threw a fellow Dem under the bus, doesn't matter if it was Franken or any other senator. She did to one of her own.

[Trumpocalypse]

230. Please that's very weak.

What's your next argument? I'm rubber and you're glue?

[brush]

235. As if you're immune to the "cult of personality" phrase you introduced.

[Trumpocalypse]

237. I'm not the beating my chest over one Senator.

[brush]

238. Not getting it again. It's not over one senator. It's the railroading of due process...

and the implications for the future because of that.

Who's the next target for a repug hit job assisted by gullible Dems?

[Trumpocalypse]

239. No again you're not getting it.

Due process is a legal standard, not a political one.

[brush]

240. That ridiculous argument again? You've already been schooled here on that yet you still...

put forth that nonsense while carefully avoiding the fact that gullible Dems fell for the repug hit job and turned on one of their own, thereby paving the way for others to be targeted.

[Trumpocalypse]

242. Not ridiculous, but reality

And the real gullible ones are those who refuse to recognize it.

[brush]

245. Like I said, you were schooled on that before. Ethics investigations are the Senate's due process

Not that hard a concept to grasp.

[Trumpocalypse]

246. Never schooled. An ethics investigations is a legal process, not a political consideration.

Grow up and learn the difference.

[brush]

248. Due process is a concept of arriving at justice and fairness, not just a legal definition.

Again, not that hard a thing to grasp—for the non-rigid.

Here's another thread on DU where many posters talk of the denial of Franken's due process via an ethics investigation.

You're definitely in the minority on the issue.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210044764

[Trumpocalypse]

249. And still not a political consideration.

And at one time those who believed that the world was round instead of flat were in the minority. Reality is not based on an opinion poll.

[brush]

250. Neither is common sense, which some seem to lack.

[Trumpocalypse]

255. Agreed, you've totally proven that.

[brush]

256. Time for school again

This is the #1 definition of DUE PROCESS from Merriam Webster:

: a course of formal proceedings (such as legal proceedings) carried out regularly and in accordance with established rules and principles — called also procedural due process

"such as legal proceedings" but nowhere is it CONFINED TO legal proceedings...there are "established rules and principles" in the Senate , carried out in "FORMAL" proceedings, so Franken is totally entitled to due process in this case.

You've been given this already from another poster.

[Trumpocalypse]

257. Still not a political consideration.

Grow up and learn the difference.

[brush]

258. Still can't accept written documented truth. Not worth a further response.

[Trumpocalypse]

259. Buh-bye!

[BamaRefugee]

76. Time for you to get schooled sir

This is the #1 definition of DUE PROCESS from Merriam Webster:

: a course of formal proceedings (such as legal proceedings) carried out regularly and in accordance with established rules and principles — called also procedural due process

"such as legal proceedings" but nowhere is it CONFINED TO legal proceedings...there are "established rules and principles" in the Senate , carried out in "FORMAL" proceedings, so Franken is totally entitled to due process in this case.

[Trumpocalypse]

81. Due Process is still not a political consideration.

Grow up

[BamaRefugee]

91. Of course it is. I'm 66 by the way, ALL GROWN UP ;-)

I just proved it to you.
And for further proof, the concept of simply railroading Franken without any resolution through the course of formal proceedings , carried out regularly and in accordance with established rules and principles, was a POLITICAL CONSIDERATION by the Senators who did it.

[Trumpocalypse]

96. Could have fooled me.

[ClarendonDem]

108. Franken wasn't denied due process

He resigned. He could have stuck around after 30+ senators from the party called for his resignation and let the ethics process play out but he decided not to.

[brush]

123. funny, I'd say he was denied due process by his impatient, alleged colleagues so anxious...

not to mention gullible, who fell for the repug hit job.

Sad.

[ClarendonDem]

149. Calling on Franken to resign

Isn't denying him due process

[brush]

163. Maybe to some, to others it very much was.

What was the rush to judgment by demanding for him to resign because of sketchy allegations, many anonymous even?

The fair thing, for a fellow Democratic was to make a judgment after the investigation, then if the accusations were true, of course Franken would resign.

However, if the allegations proved to be as sketchy as they seem, especially since no others have been made (even waist hugging ones), then the judgment and gullibility of the fellow Democrats would not have been exposed.

Their judgment is now tainted as having helped the repug hit job be successful.

[ProfessorGAC]

173. Read Your Own Title!

"Calling on" seems operative. This is not a matter of a closed door sit down!
This was publicly calling out. Seems fair to call that a subrogation of any due process.

[PatSeg]

119. I guess some people can't or won't see the big picture

This isn't just about ONE senator, though he has been an effective and important voice for progressives. I can't believe that some people can't see what is happening and is bound to happen again. I think even Roger Stone is amazed at how easy it was.

[dansolo]

236. That one senator is the reason we have the Mueller invetigation

It is rediculous how much you downplay Al Franken's importance in resisting Trump. If it wasn't for Al Franken getting Jeff Sessions to trip over himself in the hearings, he never would have recused himself from the Russia investigations. Al Franken is the biggest reason that we have the Mueller investigation, not Kirsten Gillibrand. Any one who is paying attention knows this. This is why many Democrats are pissed with him being forced out.

[JimBeard]

93. It takes a while for deep wounds to heal. It is best not to let them get infected and have to start

healing all over again,

[standingtall]

25. Gillibrand is not the only who used the Franken situation

to advance their political careers. That also goes for Booker,Sanders etc. As far as I m concerned none of those Senators that called for his resignation without due process deserves to be the Democratic nominee for President.

[brush]

37. She led the charge. Now that senate seat is vulnerable in 2018.

[SCantiGOP]

43. Vulnerable? Really?

She might be if only DU members were allowed to vote, but most people realize that this forum represents a tiny sliver of the Democratic coalition.

[standingtall]

46. The Minnesota Senate seat

very well could be vulnerable in 2020 now. When repukes in that state turn what happened to Franken into a wedge issue to discourage progressive turnout. We should'nt expect to railroad what was a fairly popular Senator by forcing him to resign and replacing him with an appointment to go over without a hitch. The only saving grace is that race will be during a Presidential election year. Any other year the repukes would probably pickup the seat under these conditions, but it will be closer than expected.

[brush]

55. There has to be a special election in 2018, just as there was for Sessions' seat in Alabama.

[brush]

48. I'm referring to Franken's seat. The repugs are already lining up for the special election.

[JonLP24]

104. She is fine by me

I rarely voice an opinion on this because whatever All Franken did he did it to himself.

[brush]

125. That's your opinion, all right.

[yardwork]

86. They all charged.

[Exultant Democracy]

60. When someone starts an avalanche you dont share the blame with then rocks.

Cause and effect, she is the one who threw the first stone and started the travesty.

[yardwork]

87. That's pathetic. Blame the senators with decades of experience, not the first-termer.

[BamaRefugee]

38. I see countless posts about how Dems "can do nothing right now!". So if they can do nothing...

...then what difference would it make IF THEY DID NOTHING WITH FRANKEN OR NOT?!??!?!?!?!?!
According to DU pundits, it's all a giant zero "right now".

I would love to see Franken STAY, but the way he's kowtowing to the powers that be, I can't help but wonder if there's something bigger that won't be revealed as long as he shuffles off into the snowy Minnesota night.

And if there's noting like that, then for the 100th time I can only ask WTF is going on?!?!?!?!

[Trumpocalypse]

39. One Senator does not make a party.

It is a shame to lose Franken, but there is a bigger picture at stake.

[FiveGoodMen]

51. But an awful lot of the OTHER Dem Senators aren't making much of a party, either.

We need to keep the good ones the most.

[Trumpocalypse]

67. Why cause you say so?

[FiveGoodMen]

85. How many of them confirmed Trump's appointments without a fight?

Even though they were the worst appointments in ... ever.

How many of them jumped all over Franken, but let Trump's own admissions just slide?

That's "why cause (I) say so"

[DDySiegs]

52. I agree with the OP

I think all the democratic senators who joined in this Salem-like warlock hunt should be ashamed of themselves. Franken himself asked for an ethics commitee investigation. This was an unforgivable failure to afford senator Franken his due process. Really disappointing!

[MiltonBrown]

54. Yup. Who needs enemies with friends like that?

[oasis]

56. Scratch her from the list of presidential possibles.

She'll be haunted by the ghost of Al Franken for the rest of her political career.

[Exultant Democracy]

66. If Bernie bros could sink Clinton she is also DOA in a general

Hopefully the party don’t spend another cycle playing chicken with itself. Obviously she has started the cycle out the worst way possible for us. Her hope is that Trump with be so crazy that everyone will fall in-line, but it’s republicans who fall in line. Never underestimate the power of the left to defeat itself.

[oasis]

78. "DOA in a general". She won't get close to the Dem nomination

after tossing both Bill Clinton and Franken under the bus. I would suggest her presidential exploratory committee wear flameproof garments.

[applegrove]

57. Guests? Would you like a gin gimlet?

[Qutzupalotl]

61. An ethics investigation might have revealed

Roger Stone's involvement (we know about his foreknowledge) and why Russian operatives wanted him gone. My guess is that he nailed sessions too hard.

[stuffmatters]

138. Franken also spotlighted Gorsuch's judicial (and human) lack of decency

Of all the Senators it was Franken who got both Sessions and Gorsuch to expose their true RW zealotry, corruption. They both looked like fools after Franken's questioning led each one to self humiliate (and right on teevee for the whole world to see.!)
To Repugs/Putin Klan Franken simply became the Most Dangerous Democrat, I sure agree with you there.

[BeyondGeography]

62. However you feel about it, she certainly made herself a divisive figure

As a precursor to a presidential run, I can think of better strategies.

[Demsrule86]

65. I won't vote for any in a presidential primary who were involved with this...no one...the

general is different of course...but doubt any that betrayed Franken and the party will make to the general.

[madaboutharry]

70. I didn't want to start a food fight.

I think I make valid points. Sen. Gellibrand has an agenda. It is very honorable to take on sexual harassment. As someone who once quit a job because of sexual harassment, I know what it looks and feels like. It is long past the time it should be tolerated. That said, I think Sen. Gellibrand was wrong. She was wrong to refuse to acknowledge there are differences in behavior. And she was wrong to demand his resignation in what looked like a calculation before the Alabama special election.

The problem in Sen. Franken's reaction to the allegations is that he is a decent man who is capable of questioning his own behavior. Perhaps he could have held off the storm better if he was a sociopath like the some of the serial deniers we have heard from lately.

And holding Sen. Gellibrand responsible for her own words is not sexist. Her gender is not relevant. It was her actions and words that are relevant.

I have been always been a democrat, like every single member of my family from the minute they stepped off the boat. And I always will vote for the democrat, no matter who it is. (Well, I would not vote for a democratic version of Roy Moore or some other dirtbag - but you know what I mean.) And if for some reason Sen. Gellibrand is the nominee in 2020, I will vote for her too. But only on election day. And I won't feel good about. Sen. Gellibrand has something in her personality that alienates me. I don't have to love her to know what is best for the country. I am certain that I am not alone in how I feel about this whole sorry episode.

[questionseverything]

79. if she is the nominee, we will lose again

and from the dnc types "input" it looks like that is the plan

[maddiemom]

90. Well put.

You speak for me, as well; especially in your evaluation of Sen. Franken.

[spanone]

75. farenthold is going nowhere....claims he won't run next year, but i don't believe a word said

[The Wizard]

77. Democrats followed their usual pattern

Repubics stamp their feet and Democrats cave in out of fear that the Repubics and their propaganda operation will say mean things about them.
Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
How many times did Obama reach across the aisle only to pull back a bloody stump? Repubics never do anything in good faith. Lying is in their DNA.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

84. Is hoping Hillary primaries her sexist??? Too many people are playing the sexist card! Sen. Collins

is a good example of crying sexist due to people opposing her support of the tax bill when she initially indicted she would vote no.

[flamingdem]

89. I'm upset with leadership because they did NOTHING to address how the majority of the base feels

Russian bots apparently added to the situation by making it seem like the base wanted Franken out.

THAT needs to be looked at.

WHY is this being allowed to stand.

Ridiculous and divisive, unforgiveable

At least have the courage to discuss it and admit it was an error.

[brooklynite]

109. "Poll: Only 22 percent of Minnesotans say Franken should stay in office"

[link:http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/361490-poll-22-percent-of-minnesotans-say-franken-should-remain-in-office|

Just 22 percent of Minnesotans in a new survey say Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) should stay in office.

A KSTP/SurveyUSA poll finds in the wake of sexual harassment allegations against Franken, only 22 percent of Minnesotans think he should remain in his post, compared to 33 percent who say he should resign.

Other than people here and on other blogs (and anecdotal references to people they know) I haven't seen any sign that "the base" is worked up about this.

[flamingdem]

117. Don't kid yourself. That poll smells of BS

and everyone I know is pissed or at least aware that an injustice/incompetent move was done.

In the end you'll be right, it will be forgotten by most, but this has changed my trust in the wisdom of the leadership.

I was interested in a Kamala Harris candidacy before and will not lift a finger for her or anyone trying to win on the back of #metoo

At least it has taught us how fraught that issue is - if Gillibrand tries to run I will be appalled. The only silver lining is that she's shown herself to be ruthless and ineligible for leadership

[standingtall]

129. And 58 percent of the people in that

poll don't think he should resign before and ethics investigation. 22 percent think he should stay in office while 36 percent want to wait for an ethics investigation. 36+22= 58. The majority doesn't want him to resign before an investigation. Nice try though.

[MrsMatt]

207. KSTP is a RW station, owned by Stanley Hubbard

so I'm sure that it was conducted with the utmost attention avoiding bias.

you really don't like Senator Franken, do you?

[awesomerwb1]

95. We need to take the country back ASAP

I don't give a **** what your gender is. We need to get Dems in power ASAP.

Who do you think will treat women better and respect their rights better, a Goper or a Democratically controlled government?

They should've let the ethics investigation do its job. Period.

I will donate to whoever primaries Gillibrand. F her.

[cp]

103. All the Dems who back-stabbed Senator Franken should be ashamed

Including my own Tammy Baldwin. Al Franken deserved so much better than this, and by his own party!

If the Dems continue to ignore why so many were enthusiastic about Bernie, they lose the young (and some not-so-young) and the future. If the Dems continue to take African Americans for granted, they lose more votes. If the Dems continue to be cowards and not stand for anything, we're not going to be able to withstand the growing fascism. I mean the national party and some state parties. So many regular people are full of energy, good ideas, and plenty of fight.

P.S. I will never vote for Gillibrand for anything nationally after this craven stunt.

[riverwalker]

110. She didnt even bother to show up at his farewell speech today

Link to tweet

[BlueWI]

137. Wow - to see so few Senate colleagues for this event.

Can't stand up in public to thank a colleague for their service. Speaks volumes.

[Glorfindel]

251. She was probably ashamed to show her face, as she should have been

I have nothing good to say about her, so I'll just say nothing.

[onetexan]

132. I will not forget what she did

[alarimer]

135. This is their response to ratfucking, capitulation.

Every single time, even though they know it is nothing more than Republican dirty tricks.

[Owl]

136. Absolutely right.

[Ferrets are Cool]

139. Is SHAME in the mind of ANY senator?

Most time I feel that they feel NO shame at all over any decision or remark they make.

[MoonRiver]

146. IMO, they took the Low Road of craven political ambition.

Especially Gillibrand.

[MoonRiver]

225. I have no idea what you're talking about.??

And, she is obviously not fat.

[marble falls]

228. He didn't know either. He left to get some Pizza.

[MoonRiver]

232. Sometimes pizza is exactly what's needed!

[PatrickforO]

148. Agreed.

Good post, and correct. This wasn't a high road, it was a kangaroo court, and it hurt us by silencing one of our best and strongest voices.

[AntiFascist]

151. Some politicians have a need...

to take advantage of any opportunity to advance their objective to run for president. I won't name any names.

[aikoaiko]

153. I see no evidence of railroading -- just some senators with opinions

It happens. I wish he were staying in the Senate, but he made his choice given what he knows about his past, the opinions of his colleagues, and whatever else was in the mix.

Its politics.

[Kajun Gal]

154. Amen!

[Honeycombe8]

155. True. How can we win if we keep "firing" our attack dogs and those who show leadership...

for the sake of being moral than the opposition. We could actively recruit molesters and STILL be ahead of the opposition in morality.

This was so wrong. An injustice to Franken. AND it hurt the Democrats and the Russia investigation.

[zentrum]

157. Told Gillibrand several times

....how angry I am at her. How much we need Franken. How she subverted due process. I've been sick over it.

[True Blue American]

171. Did she answer?

Sherrod Brown did. He always does, but this time his answer was not enough for me. I despise lynch mobs.

[zentrum]

176. Spoke to aides

…in her office. They said I was "making good points", which seemed an odd thing for them to admit, given their job.

No, she never responded to my emails and she's my senator.

[True Blue American]

216. Just make sure she does not get your vote.

I am still waiting on Sherrod to respond to my second email. I made it clear I was disappointed with him.

Democrats have a good chance of winning if they act like grownups. They did not this time.

They need to follow the rules.

[marlakay]

158. My senator Jeff Merkeley just wrote me back

About it said a bunch of good stuff about helping women fight against sexual stuff then he said Moore, Trump and Franken all had to go.

It bothers me that he put Al along with those guys like he did same thing.

Maybe he meant we shouldn’t allow any of it but He didn’t say it like that.

[MurrayDelph]

189. Jeff is generally one of the good ones

but this Zero Tolerance approach, like all Zero Tolerance approaches that don't recognize degrees and nuance, usually results in the long run with Total Acceptance of all bad action.

(As I read this to my wife, she added "Like schools with Zero Tolerance for drugs suspend girls for taking a Midol).

[peequod]

159. I stand with Al and yet...

...I am a Democrat and will support the good ones, the fair ones until the end.

Yet, every letter I write until the end of my days, to the Senators who f*cked Al on this, will end with a reminder of their mistake, that includes Bernie, Elizabeth Warren and any of the other temporary horses asses.

[True Blue American]

217. Good for you

You just gave me that idea,. Thanks,keep reminding them.

[Loubee]

161. But Democrats are good at holding press conferences and expressing alarm

if not exercising power or effective strategy; witness today's "rally" on the steps of Congress.

[JeaneRaye]

162. This one thing.

I know this one thing. Kristen Gillibrand wants to be President. I will NOT support her in the primary. If she wins the nomination, I will vote for her but that is the ONLY way she will ever get my vote.

[KPN]

167. I agree. Our need to take the high (righteous) road is infinite it seems.

And that need bites us in the ass every time as it does all of America.

[True Blue American]

170. Email

I sent an email to Sherrod Brown telling him of my disappointment in him,for the first time ever.

He responded that sexual harassment was not acceptable. I answered right back telling him the lynch mob did not give Franken a chance to appear before the Ethics Committee that Franken asked for.

I told him he should better use his time getting the real sex abuser out of the WhiteHouse,that Franken was only accused of groping, not sex abuse.

For the first time I am angry at Senator Brown.

[floWteiuQ]

177. No.... she shouldn't

And stop eating your own! This is how they divide us. It's All's decision and not anyone elses!

[rainin]

179. If she is primaried, I will donate to her challenger. I will not forgive or forget. n/t

[MrModerate]

184. Gillibrand is dead to me. I don't care what she wants to do in politics . . .

But I won't lift a finger for her.

Not because I have any loyalty, per se, for Franken (although he struck me as one of our better Senators), but because Gillibrand demonstrated foolishness and lack of nerve (and rejection of reality) in slagging Franken. We can't have that type of bad judgement in the White House.

Especially after year(s) of Trump.

[robbedvoter]

191. Also, when Schumer was targeted by the same people, different reaction

Nobody seems bothered by THAT hypocrisy

[workinclasszero]

201. Massive failure of judgment and fairness

Al was railroaded out of the Senate by a lynch mob IMO. BTW has Trump resigned yet for his many sexual assaults?

I'm sure republicans had a damn good laugh at Al Franken getting stabbed in the back by his own party without a chance to defend himself.

No hearing, no trial, GTFO Al.

Roger Stone and his gal pal are at the suckers in the democratic party, no doubt about that!

I will not give a dime to any of the people responsible, will not support them in any primary for damn sure.

If they happen to get the nomination for President I will be forced to vote for them knowing they have failed and fell for for republican dirty tricks once already so it makes it easier the next time.

[Alice11111]

210. +1000

...but geez, we got to trade Franken for a guy who says we should lay off Trump.


I raised money for many of those Dem senators who went after Al. I did not help elect them so they could destroy the best in oir Senate.
Especially for the ones leading the charge,
who do you think you are?
One Franken is worth more than the lot of them.

[True Blue American]

219. You can bet

Elfman Jeff Sessions is really enjoying this.Al made him look like a fool.

And Gillebrand and the rest were gullible as heck.

[LiberalLovinLug]

202. K & R

Do Dem reps ever peruse DU?

[heaven05]

203. +++

[Alice11111]

206. +1,000,000

but maybe the Repubs will like us now.


...as if I give a flying Fuck if they like us..

[democratisphere]

208. She is done!

[Alice11111]

211. I so hope Al moves to NY and runs asainst her. She went

after the Clintons too, in her self promotion, so hopefully,
Bill and Hillary will try to improve the Senate.

Hill was invited to NY to run for the Senate. Why not Al??

[democratisphere]

212. Minnesota may not want to give up Al. He is a political treasure in the current environment.

I believe NYers would welcome Al with open arms, where embraces are never misCONstrued for anything other than what they are. Imagine 2 New Senators for NY; Franken and HRC. Utopia!

[Alice11111]

215. Really! He loves Minnesota, but the Gov already appointed

someone for his seat. I like your idea!
We need some backbone who will make some positive changes, not just speeches. We sure don't need someone who throws our best Democratic leaders overboard...for RW, made up reasons.

[True Blue American]

220. Hillary,or better yet,Chelsea

Could run against her. Doesn’t Chelsea live in NY?

[Alice11111]

221. Chelsea, Bill, Hillary, Al Franken, or any good Democrat

will, hopefully run, and be well funded.

[True Blue American]

223. I like that,:)

[Upward]

222. I Used to Admire Gillibrand

If you look back to 2008, when most of the world thought Caroline Kennedy was going to be handed a Senate seat until the press started mocking her for talking like a real person (as in saying "teh" instead of "to&quot rather than an experienced oral commander, Gillibrand pulled off a real coup. At the time, I thought, 'okay, good, we need someone who can be a cut-throat.'

With this, she went too far for me. I want smart cut-thoats, not stupid ones who weaken their own team.

[True Blue American]

224. When you put yourself first you lose

We need team players so,thanks to the above suggestion I will keep reminding Sherrod.

I was so proud of him when he took a plane from Ohio to cast the deciding vote after his Mother’s funeral. I stayed up to watch him walk through the door at midnight to give the people the ACA.

His wife,Connie Schultz is an Award winning writer. I admire them both but told him he needed to concentrate on getting the real assaulter out of the WhiteHouse!

[Alice11111]

227. There were early signs, but we could not imagine she would

Go after our best Democratic leaders.

[Casprings]

233. This is such bulllshit

This is an issue she has fought for sense she came into the Senate. I don’t know, maybe she just believed it was the right thing to do.

[MoonRiver]

244. Does Gillibrand believe in due process? I think she was a prosecutor.

[L. Coyote]

241. STOP bashing Dems. The Russians are promoting this idea big time.

Try not to get in bed with the Russian trolls on this issue. It is a divisive wedge being exploited just like the Dem primary division was used to divide and conquer for Trump's benefit.

Franken and Gillibrand did what was right and best for the party! I would argue they helped us win in Alabama by showing the nation where the high road is at.

[Mc Mike]

247. Disagree. Both Senators are good people, to me.

See no need for a bitter schism.

[Lunabell]

252. Divisive

[CentralMass]

253. Senator Gillbrand when asked if her good friend Anthony Weiner should stay in the NYC Mayoral race.

should stay in the New York City mayoral race.

http://m.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/kirsten-gillibrand-anthony-weiner_n_3674118

https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2013/05/source-anthony-weiner-hires-a-former-obama-and-gillibrand-aide-000000
"According to a source, Anthony Weiner has hired a former Obama campaign aide and adviser to Senator Kirsten Gillibrand to be the political director of his soon-to-be-announced mayoral campaign."