Video Games Do NOT cause violent behavior.

[ZM90]

Anyone on here who believes that I gotta say c'mon you're smarter than that! *does Navi impersonation* Hey! Listen! Look! *end of impersonation* I've been playing video games since I was 4 years old and I was even playing rated M games when I was 10. Look I'll be honest I have a replica of the Master Sword from The Legend of Zelda in my house, now this is a real sword not one of those cheap wooden or plastic swords and I also like to play the Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword which has VERY realistic sword combat due to Wii Motion Plus and guess what I don't go around with my sword slicing up people in real life! I am a HUGE gamer so if video games caused violent behavior I'd be a mass murder but they don't. Video games have been demonized for a long time now but you know there really is no correlation between psychopaths and gaming. So please stop demonizing video games without concrete proof.

[loli phabay]

1. my main question if its a real sword how do you think it would fair against zombies

if theres one thing ive learned from resident evil its nothing works better than an RPG. So Far

[ZM90]

2. Well it is the blade of Evil's bane and if you want to take Hylian mythology from the Zelda

franchise into account I'd say the zombies would be screwed.

[loli phabay]

3. would you willing to barter it for my mystical cat of many colours? :)

good luck when the zombies come ill stick to my RPGs

[ZM90]

4. Let's see the Master Sword can shoot beams, travel through time, find my TV remote (with dowsing),

evil cannot touch it period without being injured or killed, oh and according to A Link to the Past it's upgradable to be sharper so nah I'm good .

[loli phabay]

5. dang i need to borrow it for medal of honor and call of duty

would be funny running around with a magical sword.

[ZM90]

6. Yeah well if Shepard had the Master Sword in Mass Effect he would have just went back in time

and killed the Starchild before he made the Reapers. Another overpowered weapon in gaming is the Monado from Xenoblade Chronicles which allows it's owner to see seconds into the future and react exactly according to prevent it among other things such as shielding it's owner with a magical shield and purging your enemy of their abilities whether they be physic or others.

[backscatter712]

45. Swords do have the virtue of not requiring ammo.

IIRC, in World War Z, the military ended up using a modified entrenching tool (aka folding shovel) they nicknamed the "Lobo" or Lobotomizer - essentially a shovel modified to have heavy blades on each side, to make it a cross between a shovel and a battle axe - great for smashing zombie brains!

[Scootaloo]

79. Ever tried swinging a combat-grade sword around?

It takes a lot out of you! And when your enemies are an endless horde of beings that don't suffer from injury, whom cannot be crippled or sent into shock, it's a huge waste of calories, with exceptionally high risk of being bitten.

The ideal anti-zombie weapon is a series of cords stretched at about ankle-height. The first wave splats onto their faces and are crushed underfoot by the combined weight of the advancing horde. And then the second wave, third wave, etc. To say nothing of the ones that are busy stumbling over the fallen.

If you don't have a horde to do the crushing for you, a shallow staked pit should do the trick; it'll keep them down, at least. best to use sturdy rebar; you don't have to sharpen it, it generally won't break like wood, and it has a lot less resistance than wood owing to a finer grain, so you can really go Vlad Tepes on some zombies through the magic of inertia and gravity!

Save your guns and swords for the Mad Max apocalypse; the zombie apocalypse will be won by having lots of patience for losing solitaire against yourself.

[Yeah Its Spin]

7. Oh My

I have a replica of the Master Sword from The Legend of Zelda in my house

[loli phabay]

8. well is this a real replica with the magic powers or a replica of a replica ;)

[loyalsister]

9. The word "cause" is useless

I have not heard from anyone that they think video games "cause" violent behavior. The idea is worth exploring.
Is it worth knowing that people who do express violent behavior have also shown attraction to violent video games? If that were so, the question would be: So SOME people who commit violent crimes also express an interest in violence in a fantasy context?
Is that really so offensive and threatening?

[Arkansas Granny]

10. Um, are you making a serious claim here?

If so, you might want to consider this:

Violent Video Games: Myths, Facts, and Unanswered Questions

http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2003/10/anderson.aspx

[ZM90]

12. I'll leave you with this article right here

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20080418/005355882.shtml

[enlightenment]

16. Do you have anything that isn't linked to the book itself?

Grand Theft Childhood is very self-promoted by the authors (unusual for an academic work, actually), but oddly free of peer review. That it is loved by the gaming community - and a quick look at available links suggests that most of the conversation about the work is in the video tech community - is hardly surprising. I'd like to see a slightly more objective assessment of the research, however.

That said, taking a look at the authors' summary of their findings doesn't really show a lack of causality - if anything, it seems to prove a link between violent (mature) video game play and aggressive behavior.

http://www.grandtheftchildhood.com/GTC/Summary.html

[Major Nikon]

38. How about this?

http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia.edu/violence-in-schools/national-statistics.html

I've read a few studies on the link between childhood violence and video games and the question that most either ignore or dismiss is why is youth violence decreasing dramatically during the same time period that violent games have proliferated?

This seems to provide evidence that their claims are either just flat wrong or at the very least grossly overstated.

[Posteritatis]

47. The most common reaction from people there is to simply deny the decrease

It's the same way people get when they're confronted with the fact that crimes rates are generally on the way down - they go "Nuh uh!" and keep on going with their previous assumptions.

[enlightenment]

49. Thanks.

It is difficult to assign complete causality to any single element, but I also believe that the desensitization that occurs through consistent play of violent video games can be a factor in youth violence/alienation/etc.

I haven't read the Grand Theft Childhood study, so I can't really comment on it - but find it interesting that their own summary seems to disagree with their more publicized claims.

[Arkansas Granny]

36. The last sentence of the article you reference reads as follows:

To be fair, the study also found that kids who played almost exclusively violent or mature video games for very long periods of time were also more at risk -- though, with no evidence of causality.

[Posteritatis]

48. And the last clause of that last sentence says "with no evidence of causality." (nt)

[Bluenorthwest]

26. Is that the same APA that called being gay a 'mental disorder' until 1973?

So they have been very wrong indeed in the past, and it took outside voices to unglue them from their prejudice and conservatism.
Got any cites with say, 40 years free of disgusting prejudice stated as if it were science?

[Arkansas Granny]

35. I don't know what they said before 1973, but this is what they say now:

Is homosexuality a mental disorder?

No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a mental disorder.

http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/orientation.aspx

You're free to draw your own conclusions about their research on video games.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. And gun don't kill people. People kill people.

[Scootaloo]

14. Ferraris don't go fast, people go fast

[The Independent]

18. Rethink

Rethink your statement. Going fast isn't the point, killing people is. When you put your Ferrari in place of guns it still works in the original posters favor. "Ferraris don't kill people, people kill people."

[Scootaloo]

23. And my point is, the tool used makes it SO MUCH EASIER

It's easier to go 90 mph with a ferrari than without
It's easier to kill someone with a gun than without

The point of a ferrari is to travel fast - it's a mode of transport
The point of a gun is to cause injury or death - it's a weapon

[LAGC]

76. Actually, the main point of a gun is to punch holes in paper targets.

Only 0.0001% of all bullets fired by guns cause injury or death.

[Scootaloo]

78. Well, I'll tell you what, Ralphie

This here air rifle can put plenty of holes in a paper target. Just be careful you don't shoot your eye out!

If all you're doing is making the world's ugliest fucking paper doily, you can live with that, right?

[LanternWaste]

37. Hence the "person-was-shot-by-another-person" wound referred to in the ER..

Hence the "person-was-shot-by-another-person" wound referred to in the ER rather than 'gun-shot wound" or GWS...

[ellenfl]

39. gsw? eom

[greyl]

60. Think. nt

[jp11]

13. Anecdotal reference is anecdotal.

I agree with your point BUT you as the single case study doesn't prove jack just as many cherry picked nutjobs who were 'into' this or that doesn't prove those were the driving forces behind their nutjob status.

[ZM90]

15. Yes I know me by myself doesn't completely prove my point but I was providing one example

It probably would have been better had I looked for articles to support my point first but I was kinda sick of people demonizing video games so I wrote this post in a hurry.

[slampoet]

31. So all of Japan is anecdotal too?

[hifiguy]

43. Japan's gaming culture is at least as intense as that in the US

and the comics culture is vastly more so. I saw stuff that even made me blink in Japanese comics when I managed a sci-fi/comics shop, and I am really hard to offend or freak out. Yet Japan remains a singularly placid country for a modern mass society.

So it clearly isn't the media themselves.

[ZM90]

52. I don't have a problem with Japan's gaming culture but then again I've been playing video games for

years and I have imported Japanese games before.

[white_wolf]

53. I know. Manga makes American comics seem tame.

Batman has nothing on some of the things I've seen in Manga. Not to mention the fact that most Manga get adapted into Anime so even their cartoons are more violent. I say this as someone who grew up watching anime.

[ZM90]

54. I like to read some Manga, the Legend of Zelda mangas that were brought over here are some of my

favorites.

[white_wolf]

55. I do too, but a lot of it is more violent than most American comics.

Of course, that just shows that the problem of gun violence has more to do with mental health issues than it does popular culture. As for the Zelda manga, I won't lie. After the TV show and CDI games, I'm wary of anything not made by Miyamoto.

[ZM90]

58. Well I don't consider the CDI games or the cartoon part of the franchise due to how horrible they

are but the mangas are excellent and a very interesting take on the games themselves. They are written by someone from Japan called Akira Himekawa who is really a collaboration of two women. These two women wrote Ocarina of Time Vol 1, Ocarina of Time Vol 2, Majora's Mask, Oracle of Seasons, Oracle of Ages, Four Swords Vol 1, Four Swords Vol 2, The Minish Cap, A Link to the Past, and Phantom Hourglass.

[Enrique]

17. GTA caused me to drive badly

i'm serious.

[The Independent]

19. And rap music made me wanna shoot at the police.

[Javaman]

20. Perhaps it's combination of mental illness and

video games. Or mental illness and gun collecting or maybe mental illness and drinking milk shakes?

bottom line: it ain't video games. It's untreated or undiagnosed or misdiagnosed mental illness.

If it were solely video games, our streets would look like Syria.

[rustydog]

21. Maybe not, but what about a few decades of violence solves everything tv

violence is the first option if you disagree with anyone tv? Goober tv, ultra violent video games played unsupervised by kids who should be playing outside learning how to behave in a polite society,not how to snipe a zombie from 1000 yards.
Look at the problem with extremely violent police actions nationwide.
paying football players rewards for punishing hits. Escalating gang violence in inner cities, the victimization of women on TV and in movies....

Violent video games may not be THE reason, but they may be a factor. The violence is there and it needs to be addressed.

Like the global warming debate, it doesn't require your belief to make it true.

[ZM90]

24. Well I'd say any study from what I saw to say that video games caused violence likely cherry picked

it's facts. Also how do you propose the violence in gaming be solved? Censorship? Please that is not going to fly and I'm sure most people on DU know it. Banning violent video games? Wouldn't happen with a little thing called "freedom of speech". I don't always play extremely violent video games but I think that anyone has a right if they wish to no matter their age despite the so called "rating system" by the ESRB and besides the rating system won't keep a 10 year old from playing a M rated game.

The debate on video games and violence is much different from global warming believe me because with global warming there's actually evidence that is occurring. Evidence for violence occurring because of video games? Not so much.

[Confusious]

63. As every student of history knows

There was exactly zero violence in society before the advent of movies, television and video games.



There is little evidence of a correlation between violence in society and video games, and even your belief doesn't make it true.

[Tom Ripley]

66. When we played outside, we played lots of western gunfighters, cops and robbers, war, etc...

with lots of "bang bang you're dead!"
I'm not of the video game generation (pinball was where the action, girls, and weed were), and I just don't find them interesting, but I see little harm in them.

[Alduin]

22. It could be a cause, but it's not THE cause.

There are many factors in society that can cause violent behavior, not just video games. I hate it when people have kneejerk reactions after tragedies and blame one thing or another on that tragedy.

I also have been playing violent video games since I was about ten and I have no desire to get violent in public.

[Odin2005]

25. I think once the Boomers die off the anti-video game crap will go away.

It seems like it's the Boomers who obsess over the "evil" of video games.

[Posteritatis]

42. I kind of think the same thing

It's just the standard generational moral panic ("oh, but this time it's different!" - yeahno, that's claimed every time too), and people have generally stopped complaining about cartoons and rock music and comic books at this point.

(Never mind that large swathes of the gaming community have also started taking a lot of time to look at problematic aspects of the industry, its content, etc., in much more productive ways the last few years anyway.)

[unblock]

27. you can't deny that the ubiquitousness of glorified violence has some impact

especially on the more mentally defective among us.

banning violent video games in and of itself isn't going to put a complete halt to these tragedies because there are still violent movies and television shows and so on. even the local news, ironically, promotes violence in the way it sensationalizes crime.

it's true that the vast majority of us don't just play a violent game and then act it out. well, actually, a lot of small children do try, and good parents correct this behavior quickly enough. but that right there shows you that there is something to the idea that seeing leads to acting it out -- and avoiding that is a learned behavior, and we all know learned behaviors are never 100% foolproof.


somehow we need to cut down on the intoxication on violent entertainment. i'm not suggesting government bans, maybe just somehow more cultural awareness will lead to hollywood thinking, hey, maybe we should leave the actual brutal crimes offscreen.

[Confusious]

64. As I've said before

There was exactly zero violence in society before the advent of violent movies, television and video games.

You figure it out.

[randome]

28. I agree with you in general.

But posts like this come across as defensive instead of promoting a discussion.

Your personal experience does not weigh in on the general question of whether video games influence behavior in some.

Not relevant at all since no one is saying they affect everyone the same.

"I am not a serial killer therefore the premise is wrong."

Just saying that's not necessarily true.

[KT2000]

29. you might be missing the point

there are questions we should examine to determine the influence that violent video games may have on our society.
How much time are people spending with these games?
How may the killing affect the developing brain in children?
Are players becoming desensitized to killing and maiming?
What will brain scans show in a person playing a violent game? Killing a character?
Because some say they are not affected is it accurate to say that none are affected?

Check out the current Newsweek. Our wired life in and of itself is affecting the way our brains work. Some people lose their sense of self just through their reliance upon the many devices. People can become "grounded" in cyberspace rather than their real life.

There are aspects that need to be examined - not just ridiculed.

[laundry_queen]

30. might? :)

Good post. Lots of unanswered questions.

[Dash87]

32. Rock and Roll will be the downfall of our society!

Look at all those young-ings, dancing to their Elvis records. If you want real music, go to church, son.

[Chorophyll]

33. Violent behavior arises from all sorts of causes.

I think if a person already has a shaky connection with reality, that person could be influenced by video games. He or she could also be influenced by movies, television or anything else. That doesn't mean we should demonize video games, movies, or television. The best we can do is try to spot signs of trouble in people and intervene if possible.

And keep weapons out of their reach.

[MadHound]

34. Hmm, who to believe?

An anonymous internet poster, whose only evidence is personal and anecdotal, or the dozens of peer reviewed studies published by reputable scientists and experts in the field.

Thanks, but I'll stick with the scientists.

[Confusious]

65. scientists?

Really. Show me the studies that prove that playing video games makes you go out and shoot someone.

[ronnie624]

72. Lots of studies

suggest an increase in hostility and aggression, and a decrease in empathy for others, in children who regularly play violent and competitive video games.

One of these days, we will have to take responsibility for the direction of our society. We should be couching our children's lessons in cooperation instead of competition, aggression and violence.

[Confusious]

85. Are we human?

Have you read a little history of the human race?

Violence was around a long time before video games.

Have you seen a riot at a video game convention, ever?

Have you seen sports fans riot? I think the clutching of pearls about video games is a little overdone.

As far as studies, if it isn't long term, which most aren't, then it really isn't worth it's salt. You could probably get the same results from someone driving in traffic or having a bad day.

Most of the studies have words like "Overestimates" and "flaws" that go with them.

[ronnie624]

88. The existence of violence in human society

is no excuse for not striving to reduce it. Your logic is severely flawed.

[Confusious]

89. No, it's not

You just don't understand, because you can't seem to break the assumption that video games cause violence.

I gave examples of violence being common before video games.

I gave examples of recreation that has more "real" violence then video games ( There is a difference, whether you believe it or not. As someone who has a bullet wound in my left leg, I can attest to that. My shooting wasn't caused by video games BTW, the person was on drugs.)

I gave examples of studies which had words like "overestimates" and "flaws" meaning most the studies done on the relationship between video games and violence are bunk.

Lastly, teenage violence has been decreasing for 30 years, about the time video games started becoming big.

Maybe video games are an outlet for violence that is within us all?

Can you even consider that thought?

[MadHound]

75. Well, unless you've got access to various journals,

I can't actually show them to you. However,
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-03-01-1Avideogames01_ST_N.htm

[Confusious]

82. Overestimates, flaws

Seems a lot of the studies that I read about after I posted that shared the same criticisms.

A lot of them also measured things like heart rate and excitement, which is exactly what they are designed to do, raise both. I also get the same effect from driving in traffic.

Now, if they did a study looking out outcomes over a period of 4 years to 18 years and outcome, and found a relationship, I would definitely listen.

But A study that only looks at a small slice of time afterwards, not so much.

To me, sports fans are more violent then video game players.

I haven't heard of riots after an E3 convention.

[MadHound]

83. Do you have access to J-STOR?

If so, you would find a wealth of studies that have been done, both short and long term studies. The consensus does seem to be that video games can cause violent behavior in some people to one degree or another.

[Confusious]

84. Yes I have access through school

But I also seriously doubt any study that isn't long term. I also doubt any study before 2004. It's a new "discipline" and like I said, most have the words "Overestimates" and "flaws" that go with them.

There are a lot of factors in life, not the least of which is the fact that we are human and have a very long history of violence. Violence was around a long time before video games. It wasn't invented by them.

My personal feelings about it, in my case alone, is that video games give me an outlet for violent and aggressive feelings that would otherwise build up. I personally wouldn't hurt anyone, but it wouldn't be good for my mental health.

[ellenfl]

40. i have had a lifelong irrational fear of needles.

when i was in my 20s, i decided to join a university-sponsored birth control study because it meant that i would be taking glucose tolerance tests. for those who do not know, that involves drawing blood 5-7 times over a few hours. i took several such tests during the course of the study. i realized that the only way i would alleviate some of my fear was to experience needles more regularly. imo, violent video games and movies anesthetize people to the horror of the acts.

i also believe that the use of a gun makes the act of killing impersonal enough to mitigate some persons' humanity.

jmo.

ellen fl

[Confusious]

70. I guess if pixels were human

you'd be right.

I've shot a gun and been shot.

big, monumental difference.

PS By your line of thinking, seeing pictures of needles would have desensitized you. Seeing pictures of airplanes would desensitized people afraid of flying.

Do you think it would?

[ellenfl]

80. i'm pretty sure that

the more gruesome movies i watch, the less queasy i would be. i haven't tested that though.

ellen fl

[Confusious]

86. Really?

You'd be able to handle the smell, and the crawly feeling on your skin?

I've heard people describe the smell of death multiple times, as one of my interests is World War 2. I've studied it for 30 years.

I can watch the shows, but do I think I could handle it in real life with all the sensations?

I would puke my guts out, most likely.

Totally different.

[killbotfactory]

41. It's that damn rock music, or hip hop, or comic books, or trashy pulp novels, or tainted nescafe...

TETRIS MADNESS

[Odin2005]

44. Dungeons and Dragons is Satanic!!!

[backscatter712]

46. Nobody here is actually advocating banning, restricting or censoring video games, are they? n/t

[Confusious]

68. They can't

free speech. Supreme decision.

It's just annoying more then anything.

Someone telling you all the time that what you like to do is worthy of derision, or causes people to go postal and commit mass murders.

"you should be more like your old man! go out and hunt and play baseball, or when you're older, sit on your ass and watch sports on TV, or even better, at a stadium!"

Thank you, no. Never cared for sports or hunting.

PS, that was just an example, my dad never said those things.

[panader0]

50. You need to get out more

Have you tried hiking or fishing?

[ZM90]

51. I like to fish but I'm not usually in a position where I can do so sadly :(

[Posteritatis]

56. Because people who play video games never go out, right? (nt)

[Confusious]

67. We're all in our moms basement

in our underwear.

Never dated, and eat Cheetos as breakfast, lunch and dinner.

[emilyg]

57. Don't agree.

[Tom Ripley]

59. I don't care for video games (hell, I don't even like playing cards or Monopoly), but you are

absolutely correct. I am also sick of the hysteria.

[Nye Bevan]

61. On the contrary. I played video games a lot as a kid.

And now I frequently invade alien worlds, dropping bombs on them while moving side to side and inexorably downwards, one pixel at a time.

[TroglodyteScholar]

62. Of course they don't!

They just make it look awesome.

[RedCappedBandit]

69. In my experience, gamers aren't violent.

We're not the ones who go out at night picking fights and stirring shit up. We aren't the ones bullying all the people weaker than us. And whatnot.

[NashvilleLefty]

71. When kids grew up on the farm

they quickly learned how to kill at an early age. And not in a video game.

If they wanted their family to eat, they learned to kill.

Long, long before video games existed.

[JDPriestly]

73. Loneliness, lack of community and a feeling of estrangement from others

may be what causes the mixture of paranoia and anger that leads to obsessions with guns and weapons and pushes these loners, almost always loners, over the edge into acts of incredible violence.

Note I am talking about the obsession with guns and weapons combined with loneliness, a sense of isolation and the inability to connect with others or feel empathy for others, not hobby hunters. Loneliness, isolation and inability to empathize are the characteristics that seem to be common to these mad assassins.

Mental illness? Yes. But also societal illness that excludes people from an early age and deprives them of the sense of shared experiences and feelings of common culture with others.

That idea occurred to me earlier today when I was watching Piers Morgan's interview with Michael Moore.

When I have lived in other countries, I have noticed that, while all countries have loners, "eccentrics" the British proudly call them, the US has loners and eccentrics who really don't identify with the rest of our society and don't share social events or even the social identity of other Americans. They don't even admit to having the same feelings as others. The emphasis on making it on your own and on not needing a social net under you or a social cushion around you worsen the feelings of isolation that a surprising number of Americans have -- from childhood on.

In other countries, there are certain customs and community activities that bind people together. We have that less here. We have fewer traditions that include everyone.

I recall driving through the Austrian countryside one day some years ago. Our whole family was in the car. We came upon a wedding party dancing and celebrating ON THE HIGHWAY right there. They were all very happy, stopped our car and insisted we have some food and join them. We were in a bit of a hurry, but it was impossible to refuse. The whole village was attending the wedding.

We used to have a sense of community like that in a few places in the US but it was long ago. That is what is missing for so many. That is why there is this fear that causes so many Americans to load up on guns and ammunition and wait for Armageddon. And a few, the loneliest, the most isolated -- express their fear and anger in killing sprees.

It's a lack of community culture.

[ZM90]

74. You have some valid points :)

What I like to do is when I go over to visit my sister and cousins in another town is I like to bring my old Super Nintendo games and just have good old nostalgic fun with my cousins and we play these video games together, it's fun especially considering I am teaching my 8 year old cousin to appreciate classic games like Super Mario World and Zelda: A Link to the Past.

[JDPriestly]

81. Yes. In past generations, we played board games.

Being in the same room with those with whom you are playing games brings warmth along with the fun of the game.

Sounds like you have a great family. It's the basis for everything else in life.

So many people don't have that today. No wonder they become angry and act out their anger in horrible ways.

You couldn't give better gifts your sister and cousins -- the fun of the games, a link to the past and the love of family.

[Confusious]

87. I agree

The car has driven us apart, no pun intended.

[justiceischeap]

77. I'm with you in thinking video games do NOT cause violent behavior...

in the majority of people who play them. I think there are a minority of people that they do enhance what was already within them. I play first-person shooters and the more violent and bloody the better for me. However, once I walk away from the game, I'm not envisioning causing harm to my neighbors, I wouldn't have the stomach for that much real bloodshed.

I do think violent video games and tv/movies desensitize folks. It's hard to retain your compassion and empathy when you're constantly bombarded with horrible imagery so often that it becomes rote. "Oh, another mass shooting..." "Oh, someone got shot again in the city... What's new?" that sort of thing.