President Obama: "AK-47s belong in the hands of soldiers, not in the hands of criminals"

[kpete]

OBAMA: I, like most Americans, believe that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual the right to bear arms. And we recognize the traditions of gun ownership that passed on from generation to generation -– that hunting and shooting are part of a cherished national heritage.

But I also believe that a lot of gun owners would agree that AK-47s belong in the hands of soldiers, not in the hands of criminals –– that they belong on the battlefield of war, not on the streets of our cities. I believe the majority of gun owners would agree that we should do everything possible to prevent criminals and fugitives from purchasing weapons; that we should check someone’s criminal record before they can check out a gun seller; that a mentally unbalanced individual should not be able to get his hands on a gun so easily. These steps shouldn’t be controversial. They should be common sense.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/07/26/588441/obama-gun-control-should-be-common-sense/

[ananda]

1. There's a difference these days?

Call me cynical, but at least Obama is
saying something.

[redgreenandblue]

3. Yeah, at least there is a statement, although a slightly eerie one.

"AK-47s belong on the battlefield of war" seems to suggest in the subtle way that there being "battlefields of war" is the natural state of things.

Maybe Ak-47s don't belong anywhere Mr. President, ever considered that?

[PavePusher]

57. Your opinion of the military is noted.

Now please take it to the proper forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1179

[hack89]

2. Right message perfectly delivered. nt

[slackmaster]

4. No problem with that - AK-47s are regulated as machineguns under the National Firearms Act

The President has figured out how to sound like he's saying something constructive about the issue without really saying anything at all.

Good for him!

[ohiosmith]

6. This post was alerted on. The jury voted 6/0 to let it stand.

At Thu Jul 26, 2012, 07:20 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

No problem with that - AK-47s are regulated as machineguns under the National Firearms Act
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1024162

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

This is not a criticism of our President (allowed at DU) but a straight out insult.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 26, 2012, 07:27 AM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Groan!
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: a bitchy comment to be sure but not banning material.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The post doesn't make a generalized personal attack on Obama or on anyone else. Instead, it expresses the member's opinion about a specific statement made by Obama. That's allowed.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The president has figured out a way to address this situation without pissing everybody off. This poster appears to be acknowledging that. I don't see any sarcasm here. President Obama is, after all, a politician and this is what politicians do.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This was one of the silliest alerts I've seen in a while.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[aikoaiko]

8. Wow, that is a clear jury slap in the face.

I hope it knocks some sense into the alerter.

[ohiosmith]

10. Me too, but I doubt that it will.

[slackmaster]

19. The President is a professional politician. Fence-straddling is an important aspect of the art.

Every effective, successful politician since ancient times has mastered it.

[aikoaiko]

9. I too think the Pres chose his works carefully - note that he didn't mention AR-15s or mag limits

or other firearms/accessories listed by names in the now defunct AWB.

I'm wondering if the President hasn't mastered how to play the anti-gun crowd like a fiddle.

[johnnie]

5. "They should be common sense."

And there's the rub.

[krhines]

7. This Proves It

This proves he is a Commie. AK47's are Russian made guns.

[99Forever]

11. Nice fence straddle.

That'll save some lives.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

73. No kidding. Many, many things shouldn't be in the hands of "criminals."

Classic Obama.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

12. It's sad that something so common sense would seem so controversial.

Hunting rifle? Sure. A pistol kept in a secure location inside one's home for protection? Maybe.

But who on earth needs a high powered, high capacity assault rifle? Seriously?

And don't give me the whole "right to choose" bullshit. There's no practical reason to have a gun like that in this country.

[4th law of robotics]

14. For the umpteenth time

very few people in this country have assault rifles.

Assault rifles are by definition automatic.

They are used in virtually no crimes.

And "high powered" when referring to a rifle is meaningless.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. "[Assault Rifles] are used in virtually no crimes."

Except when, you know, they are.

Like--I don't know--in Aurora, Colorado. On July 20, 2012.

[Sgent]

24. Um... no

the weapon used was not an assault weapon in any way other than it looked mean.

It was not an automatic rifle, and is functionally no different than my brother's deer hunting rifle.

Now, if you want to talk about banning larger magazines (although I don't really think that would have helped), I maybe sympathetic, but when you distort the truth, I don't really want to hear any more.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to banning the production / import of semi-autos, or at least regulating them more highly, but its a non-starter politically. Even if a majority of people would support it (and I doubt most would on a semi-auto), it would mean we lose states such as Virginia, Indiana, Ohio, Florida, etc. for at least 1-2 decades. Its not worth it.

Any change in the weapon's policy in this country has to come from the right. We can apply pressure, but going for broke will kill us.

[4th law of robotics]

25. He did not use an assault rifle

you are thinking assault weapon.

I know the terms bear some similarity to each other but they mean different things.

Given the amount of times this has to be pointed out I'm starting so suspect it's done intentionally to muddle things rather than out of honest ignorance.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

32. So assault rifle, assault weapon, what exactly is your point here?

It was an AK-47. It was capable of firing 100 bullets without unloading. Assault weapon, assault rifle, tomato, tomato.

The Right has its own "political correctness" that they always seem to rail against when it comes to discussion of things like the interests of minorities, except their PC involves things like guns. And under the Right's PC, it is taboo to discuss regulation of any gun, no matter how reasonable. You are better off insulting their mothers.

So allow me to be un-PC for a moment, at least in the minds of the Right. What need is there for any ordinary, average civilian to carry any weapon that has the potential for such destruction. We're not talking deer hunting rifles here, nor are we talking about a pistol you keep in a locked drawer next to your bed. We're talking about a weapon that appears to be designed for the heat of the battlefield.

[4th law of robotics]

33. "It was an AK-47"

Wow.

You're pulling my leg right?

In fact it was a flamethrower that also sprayed acid and nerve gas.

I mean as long as words don't mean things.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

36. Sorry to insult your oh so holy gun sensibility. AR-15.

Apparently this will easily fit in your nightstand. And it's great for shooting delicious buck.

[4th law of robotics]

38. The false claims that it was an AK-47 are too regular and too frequently disputed

to be simply an honest mistake.

Why that gun? Could it be because it is ingrained in our psyche as a weapon used to kill American soldiers produced by one of our most hated historical enemies?

I suspect the intentional mislabeling of an american weapon as one associated with the Soviet Union, Vietnam, China, etc is a very deliberate act of misinformation to manufacture outrage.

That is why it matters.

[HooptieWagon]

39. Not to mention...

AK47 is an automatic weapon, and an AR15 is a semi automatic like most handguns and many hunting rifles. Know-nothing gun banners seem to categorize weapons based solely on appearance, ignoring function and purpose. Its no wonder dialog can't be had, when one side is so factually-challenged.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

40. Who cares?

Can you honestly say that either an AK-47 or an AR-15 serves any functional use for either hunting or for discreet personal protection?

If not, there's no business of them being in the hands of ordinary people. I'm sorry, but there's none.

[X_Digger]

42. Absolutely.

They're in use by hunters, by sportsmen in competitions, and for home defense.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

46. So...um......

....how exactly was a AR-15 necessary to accomplish something that a normal hunting rifle could just as well do?

[X_Digger]

53. Lighter, less prone to damage, more ergonomic, more configurable for different conditions..

.. easier to maintain, less prone to rust, easier to switch calibers for different game, easier to make more accurate..

That help?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

54. "More configurable for different conditions."

You have that right.

Apparently it's perfect for a herd of deer.

Also perfect for a theater full of unsuspecting movie goers.

[X_Digger]

55. For example..

A collapsible stock- in summer hunting, the stock can be fully extended to match light clothing. In winter, it can be collapsed to accommodate bulky winter clothing. Rather than purchasing two guns, the same one can do be used in both cases.

Separate 'uppers'- the same gun, with a 5.56 upper works well for varmint hunting or target shooting. The same gun with a 6.8spc upper works for larger game such as elk. A different upper? Feral hogs.

Hunting in brushy, mountainous conditions? Use one configuration more suited to short distances. Hunting in the plains states or the desert? Use another configuration more suited to longer distances.

Target shooting at the local range? Use a 22LR bolt and save money.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

56. And also ideal for gunning down large numbers of movie patrons as quickly as possible.

It's really the perfect weapon!

[X_Digger]

58. What makes an AR-15 so much more suited for that than this? (Which wasn't covered by the AWB, btw)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Mini-14

[Tommy_Carcetti]

60. I really can't say.

You might want to ask James Holmes.

[X_Digger]

74. They both fire the same round, at the same speed (one bullet per pull of the trigger)

They both accept detachable magazines.

AWB covered one, but not the other.

Same lethality. But I know, the AR-15 looks scary.

[PavePusher]

59. There are millions of AK- and AR-pattern rifles in civilian ownership.

They are quite normal.

And they make fine hunting rifles, just as do many other semi-auto rifles.

Which of the following is a legitimate hunting rifle, and why or why not?

1. http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/bolt-action-model-seven.aspx

2. http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/pump-action-model-7600.aspx

3. http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/autoloading-model-750.aspx

4. http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/autoloading-model-r-25.aspx

[Tommy_Carcetti]

63. Congratulations. You've just unvealed a shocking fact.

Lots of civilians own these types of weapons. I believe my father in law and brother in law are two of them.

My question isn't whether lots of people own these semi-auto rifles, it's more of why.

I'll fully admit I'm not a hunter. I'm not necessarily opposed to other people hunting, but it's just not my bag (pardon the pun). However, my understanding of hunting--much like fishing--is that it is a waiting game. A stalking game. Hence the reason hunter build blinds and wait at times for hours before they can fire off the perfect shot. Fire off more than a couple of shots and miss and it's a good chance your target will high tail it out of range. So would a gun like a AR-15, designed first as a military weapon for getting off as many shots as quickly as possible, really be that more effective than a gun that was designed primarily as a hunting rifle and might not fire as rapidly? Like I said, I'm not a hunter, so that's not a hypothetical.

I'm sure you can use an AR-15 for hunting, and I'm sure many folks do. But it doesn't change the fact that it was designed as a military weapon first, and why ordinary non-military citizens need to be given that at their disposal is beyond me.

[PavePusher]

64. Nearly every hunting rifle in existence is derived directly from a military design.

I'm not sure how you think AR-pattern rifles are used in hunting, but you seem to imply that they are used in a "dozens of rounds, spray-and-pray" technique. Nothing could be furthar from the truth, of course.

Most jurisdictions limit medium and large game hunting rifles to 5 rounds or less. (California is, oddly, an exception to this.) Several companies make hunting-legal magazines for these guns. This makes them absolutely no different from any other semi-auto hunting firearm.

I noticed that you did not address my question above in any way....

[4th law of robotics]

43. It matters for the reasons I stated

did you read my post?

It represents a deliberate re-writing of reality to serve a political purpose.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

45. Yes, I read your post.

But your "woe is me the long suffering assault weapons owner why oh why do they hate me" logic is unpersuasive.

[4th law of robotics]

47. Your response indicates that you did not read it

or failed to comprehend what I wrote since I stated nothing at all about "woe".

[Tommy_Carcetti]

49. Okay, you do understand the concept of tone, right?

And that every post you've made on this thread appears to be bemoaning the plight of poor, misunderstood gun advocates.

Oh, wait, let me guess, you never actually said the words "poor, misunderstood gun advocates", so that means I must not have read anything you said.

[4th law of robotics]

50. No I'm pointing out the deliberate dishonesty of gun-grabbers

intentionally mislabeling things to re-direct and derail the conversation.

I have limited tolerance for such deliberate lies.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

51. Then by all means, take your "limited tolerance" somewhere else.

The fact is that someone used a semi-automatic assault rifle originally designed for military combat use, legally purchased with little oversight, to mow down several dozen innocent people who were doing nothing but watching a movie.

If we can't have a conversation as to the utility of such a weapon in the hands of ordinary citizens and the availability of purchase of such a weapon without you screaming about lying and "gun grabbers" and "intentionally mislabeling" and "derailing the conversation", then do us all a favor and go Cheney yourself.

[PavePusher]

61. The people who've been responding to you have used facts, evidence and calm, rational tones.

You've introduced no facts or evidence, and have been trying to sell fear and ignorance.

Who's the one that "can't have a conversation as to the utility of such a weapon in the hands of ordinary citizens and the availability of purchase of such a weapon"?

"Cheney yourself"? Alerted for the sheer hate and fucktardery.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

65. 15 dead, 58 injured.

Accomplished by a gunman who legally purchased a legally available weapon that inexplicably had the legal capability of carrying 100 rounds with the ability to discharge 50-60 rounds a minute.

In a movie theater. Not in a Fallujah firefight. In a theater.

You want my facts and evidence?

There's my facts and evidence.

And yeah, I said go Cheney yourself to someone who was ranting about "gun grabbers" and their "deliberate dishonesty." It's called in common parlance a euphamism. But if that euphamism is too much for your virgin ears to handle, then I'll just refer to my friend Willy Wonka instead and kindly give both you and your little friend a Good Day Sir!

[PavePusher]

66. Advocating that people you disagree with shoot themselves in the face is NOT an "euhphamism".

It's sheer vile fucktardery.

If you had facts and evidence to refute that person, please present them. So far you've been shown to be incorrect on every claim you've made.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

67. *Ahem*

http://articles.cnn.com/2004-06-24/politics/cheney.leahy_1_kevin-kellems-bush-judicial-nominee-senate-democrats?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS

Cheney, who as president of the Senate was present for the picture day, turned to Leahy and scolded the senator over his recent criticism of the vice president for Halliburton's alleged war profiteering.

Cheney is the former CEO of Halliburton, and Democrats have suggested that while serving in the Bush administration he helped win lucrative contracts for his former firm, including a no-bid contract to rebuild Iraq.

****

In response to Cheney, Leahy reminded Cheney that the vice president had once accused him of being a bad Catholic, to which Cheney replied either "f--- off" or "go f--- yourself."
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Yep.

Paging Mr. Wonka.



"Fucktardery"......

[PavePusher]

68. I stand corrected. I have not seen the term used in relation to that reference before.

I apologize for my misunderstanding.



You still have not addressed the question in #59.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

69. Well, now you know.

It was something of a big deal when it happened.

As to your question in 59, I honestly say as someone who is not a hunter I cannot say which one of those items is best suited for hunting or not. Feel free to ask a hunter and I'm sure he or she will be happy to weigh in.

I will say I'm not aware of those particular models being used in a mass shooting event like what was seen in Colorado. (Maybe I'm wrong, and feel free to correct me if I am.) James Holmes chose a AR-15 with maximum destructive capabilities and was legally and easily able to do so. That's the center of my concern at the moment.

[PavePusher]

70. Then it's quite obvious you didn't look at all the examples.

P.S. The "maximum destructive capabilities" of the AR-15 rifle are rather low on the rifle power scale.

Again, evidence that you don't seem to know much about the field.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

72. Again, if you can refer me to a mass shooting where....

....a traditional hunting rifle (i.e. one designed with hunting first in mind and not military use) was used, that would be helpful.

I'm not aware of such instances, but that is not to say it hasn't happened. Perhaps it has. You appear to spend most of your time on this website discussing issues concerning guns, so maybe you would know better than me.

All I know is last week a man walked into a theater with a AR-15 capable of holding 100 rounds of ammunition and shot dead 12 people and injuring 58. There's a discussion to be had, right there and right now. That's all I know.

[friendly_iconoclast]

77. *All* rifles were designed first for military use.

[Lurks Often]

78. Here is your example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Possibly due to a brain tumor, in conjunction with drug abuse and emotional stress, Charles Whitman killed 14 people, including an unborn child.

Of note is that armed civilians returned fire forcing Whitman to shoot through holes in the clock tower's facade and that one civilian grabbed a gun and went up to the top of the tower with the police officers after Whitman, where Whitman was shot to death.

The Wikipedia article seems to indicate that Whitman killed 11 of the 14 people with a bolt action hunting rifle.

[Kingofalldems]

52. Are you a Democrat?

[derby378]

79. Too late...

A long time ago, I got pounced on by a gun-control advocate for confusing an M1 Garand with an M1 carbine.

I aimed for the 10 spot on the archery target and hit the copyright notice instead. You aimed for the 10 spot, however, and hit a hay bale in the next county.

[JonLP24]

48. I know - sarcasm

but it's piss poor weapon for shooting Buck because the standard rounds it fires are too small.

It would be better for shooting rabbits & small game.

[PavePusher]

62. There are numerous uppers in larger calibers for larger game.

Or one can buy the AR-10 variant in .308.

[JonLP24]

80. I know

I think said "standard". My whole point was that compared to "hunting rifles" it isn't as powerful as they're being out to be. .308 would work w/ Buck.

[PavePusher]

81. Sorry about that...

I'm running into so much ignorance lately that I've defaulted to "pedantic mode".

Mea Culpa.

[backwoodsbob]

44. hate to break it to you,but

either of my deer rifles is orders of magnitude more powerful than a .223 assault weapon.

[treestar]

29. But of course they could be

The next Holmes could use one. Maybe the next shooting can be even worse in terms of lives taken.

But I guess we should just accept that, shouldn't we?

[4th law of robotics]

30. The process required to get a fully automatic weapon in this country

is pretty intensive.

And I prefer statistics to hypotheticals when determining policies.

[hamsterjill]

15. Well said!

Some good, ole common sense injected into the equation! I absolutely agree.

Now the trick will be for the Obama team to use a common sense approach in the debate with the NRA! Some how, some way, the American people need to understand that it is NOT threatening to their 2nd amendment rights by not allowing assault weapons!

[4th law of robotics]

13. Kindly point out which crimes have been committed here

using an AK-47.

Stupid, stupid comment.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

16. I think it's time for the Gungeonoids to fall in line. nt

[dickthegrouch]

17. Everyone ignores the "militia" qualifier

Militia wear uniforms. No one carrying a gun should do so without being in a recognizable, and heavily regulated, uniform.
Anyone that does carry a weapon without a uniform should be forcibly conscripted into the real army where they can indulge their disgusting fantasies in whatever failure of politics "needs" it.

And I loved the toon that n2doc found of Moses with the 10 commandments:





It was supposed to.

[slackmaster]

18. Actually, only members of the organized components of the militia e.g. National Guard wear uniforms.

The rest of us are just plain folks. My attire for today is "business casual."

MILITARY AND VETERANS CODE
SECTION 120-130

120. The militia of the State shall consist of the National Guard,
State Military Reserve and the Naval Militia--which constitute the
active militia--and the unorganized militia.

121. The unorganized militia consists of all persons liable to
service in the militia, but not members of the National Guard, the
State Military Reserve, or the Naval Militia.

122. The militia of the State consists of all able-bodied male
citizens and all other able-bodied males who have declared their
intention to become citizens of the United States, who are between
the ages of eighteen and forty-five, and who are residents of the
State, and of such other persons as may upon their own application be
enlisted or commissioned therein pursuant to the provisions of this
division, subject, however, to such exemptions as now exist or may be
hereafter created by the laws of the United States or of this State.

123. Whenever the Governor deems it necessary, he or she may order
an enrollment to be made by officers designated by the Governor, of
all persons liable to service in the militia. The enrollment shall
include any information that the Governor may require. Three copies
thereof shall be made: one copy shall be filed in the office of the
clerk of the county in which the enrollment is made, and two copies
in the office of the Adjutant General.

124. Enrollment shall be made upon such notice and in such manner
as the Governor may direct. Every person required by such notice to
enroll who fails or refuses so to do is guilty of a misdemeanor.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=mvc&group=00001-01000&file=120-130

[dickthegrouch]

20. We can change that /nt

[Marinedem]

21. In that case,

I expect I'll never see you talk about:

1. Police states
2. Military industrial complex
3. Militarization
4. Civil liberties
5. Conscription.

[joeglow3]

34. Wow, a page from Shrub's book

"They are not an official army, so we can torture, hold forever and do whatever we want."

[4th law of robotics]

37. Ignores, or interprets it correctly from a historical perspective?

[Kaleva]

22. The FOPA of 1986 made being able to buy an AK-47 a very hard thing to do.

That law stipulated that the only AK-47s one could buy in the US were those that were already registered. What this did in effect was make the AK-47 extremely expensive as there were only so many such guns registered at the time. An AK-47 in excellent condition can be bought but they run about $16,000.00 to $20,000.00.

Here's one going for $17,9995.00:

http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/index.cgi?db=nfafirearms&website=&language=&session_key=&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=long&db_id=20969&query=retrieval

[B2G]

26. NO guns belong in the hands of criminals

[Remmah2]

27. AK-47s are a bad thing.

When are people going to start buying Made in USA products and start supporting the economy?

Screw all this Made in China crap.

[treestar]

28. Typical. Just like the President to be reasonable.

And have a rational view. I don't agree with him that the Second grants an individual right, but if it does, it is to be regulated. the Second Amd. says that itself. The President knows it does not have to be taken to extremes like everyone having a right to an AK-47.

[TBF]

31. Or the mentallly ill. nt

[Zalatix]

35. Armed soldiers roaming among an unarmed populace.

Kent State showed us that nothing could go wrong with that.

[aikoaiko]

41. Update: Press Sec Carney says NO NEW GUNS LAWS. LOL.

Last edited Wed Aug 1, 2012, 08:46 AM - Edit history (1)

White House press secretary Jay Carney said at a press briefing that Obama was speaking of actions “short of legislation and short of gun laws that can reduce violence,” emphasizing that the president is “very mindful of the need when it comes to legislation that we protect the Second Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens.”

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/07/26/588441/obama-gun-control-should-be-common-sense/

[BOG PERSON]

71. does the US Army use AK47s?

i thought they use something else. while AK47s are the supposed gun of choice of "irregulars". at least to my understanding.

[ManiacJoe]

75. Every now and then, usually by Special Forces.

Regular troops get the M16 and M4.

[slackmaster]

76. Only when they want to make it appear that something they did was not done by the US military

[scarletwoman]

83. My apologies to all for a stupid lock.