I think gun culture is a symptom of toxic masculinity.

[milestogo]

Lots of cultures have a problem with toxic masculinity, but when you add the element of widely available weapons it is a recipe for mass slaughter.

Toxic Masculinity:

The concept of toxic masculinity as used in psychology refers to traditional cultural masculine norms in American and European society that can be harmful to men, women, and society overall. Toxic masculinity is defined by adherence to traditional male gender roles that restrict the kinds of emotions allowable for boys and men to express, including social expectations that men seek to be dominant (the "alpha male" ) and limit their emotional range primarily to expressions of anger. Contemporary expectations of masculinity can produce such "toxic" effects as violence (including sexual assault and domestic violence), "sexual excess" (promiscuity), excessively risky and/or socially irresponsible behaviors including substance abuse, and dysfunction in relationships.

Terry Kupers, a professor at The Wright Institute school of psychology, defines toxic masculinity as "the constellation of socially regressive male traits that serve to foster domination, the devaluation of women, homophobia and wanton violence". According to Kupers, the term toxic masculinity serves to outline aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, "such as misogyny, homophobia, greed, and violent domination". These traits are contrasted with more positive aspects of hegemonic masculinity such as "pride in [one's] ability to win at sports, to maintain solidarity with a friend, to succeed at work, or to provide for [one's] family". The concept of toxic masculinity is not intended to demonize men or male attributes, but rather to emphasize the harmful effects of conformity to certain traditional masculine ideal behaviors such as dominance, self-reliance, and competition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

[smirkymonkey]

1. Completely agree!

[Skittles]

2. they get more upset about masculinity jokes than by slaughtered children

Last edited Thu Feb 22, 2018, 11:55 PM - Edit history (1)

they are absolute fucking cowards

[Squinch]

5. Our mistake is to back off the masculinity jokes. They are true. For these gun nutters,

who have to have a dozen guns and who have to show their guns at Starbucks and who have to make the gun their identity, the gun absolutely IS a penis replacement.

And there have been some comments here saying the photos of the children, after an AR15 has gotten to them, should be shown. If there were a way to do that that was respectful to the victims, I would absolutely agree. I would love to show those assholes what their hobby is wreaking.

[Skittles]

7. I honestly think they don't care

their fear and paranoia TRUMPS ALL - well, at least it has - time to start calling out these cowards for what they really are

[Caliman73]

53. I actually think that they might

Which is why they fight to keep those pictures out of circulation.

[Skittles]

57. I think they are hidden out of consideration for the families

[milestogo]

3. The people who have dozens of weapons

are almost always antisocial men who fit this pattern. Its the excessive number that reveals the pathology. If somebody owns weapons and likes to hunt or shoot in a social context - that is not unreasonable. But when you hear of these people who keep buying more and more and stockpiling them... there is something wrong.

How many weapons can you use at once to defend your property or your country? There is no defensive scenario that fits. Its as though these people are filled with rage and just waiting for a moment where they can justify expressing their rage with a powerful weapon.

[hunter]

8. Who is buying most of the guns? Follow the money.

That's why gun manufacturers support the NRA.

Three quarters of us don't have guns, most reasonable gun owners might have one or two guns that last them many years, even a lifetime, and then you've got the guys who are always looking for new guns, keeping small arsenals, and getting rid of the guns they are bored with in ways that trickle down to the illegal street trade or into the hands of psychopaths. A few of these gun hoarders, like the Las Vegas shooter, are psychopaths.

These kind of gun fetishes, the core constituency of the modern NRA, need to be denormalized, just as smoking in public places and drunk driving were denormalized.

[milestogo]

9. Well said.

[Squinch]

22. This is so important. Even here, we back off the obvious "guns are compensation" jokes because

we feel they are impolite. But you know what? The truth is that these guns, for these people, are compensation.

They ARE ridiculous. We need to stop shying away from stating how ridiculous they are, and we need to be very vocal about it.

[Squinch]

4. But there is more to it than that. Black men are not part of this. I think it goes back

to the same old thing that is behind so much violence and republicanism these days: a good percentage of white men are enraged that they have fewer unearned advantages, because they realize that with fewer (but still plenty of) unearned advantages they cannot compete with women or with men of color.

Men of color get the same messages about "alpha males" and whatnot. But they aren't joining the NRA and stockpiling AR15s and shooting up schools. Just that segment of white guys who feel they are being discriminated against because they are less able to discriminate against others.

[RhodeIslandOne]

12. You dont think gang culture has elements of toxic masculinity? n/m

[JI7]

14. that was her point, that there is issues with masculinity among men of color also. and that the

big difference is white men are angry over losing influence and power to women and people of color and other minorities.

it's about loss of privilege for white men.

[RhodeIslandOne]

15. The person I responded to?

They seemed to be completely absolving men of color from being interested in guns or violence. You don’t have to be an NRA member to have a fascination with owning and showing off guns. This problem of gun culture and young men feeling a need to have a gun to show their manhood spreads from the suburbs to trailer parks to the inner city.

[JI7]

16. majority of men of color support gun control . she didn't absolve the actual gang members

she is making a point of the country as a whole.

[RhodeIslandOne]

17. I dont disagree with this....

....but you seem to have read a lot more into the poster’s reply than I did.

[Squinch]

41. He knows that. It's just one of those attempts to derail the discussion. Bingo card tactic.

But thanks for this.

[Squinch]

21. We aren't talking about the gang culture, are we? We're talking about the "gun culture" which

is a specific thing, dominated by the NRA, white men, gun shows, gun hoarding as a thumb-in-the-eye to liberal objections to guns. It is associated with white supremacy and republican values.

And as I specifically said, black men are subject to messages of toxic masculinity, too, but they are not part of this gun culture.

I think football has elements of toxic masculinity, too. Many things have elements of toxic masculinity. But right now we are talking about gun culture

[RhodeIslandOne]

25. So you are saying that black males are not generally interested in guns?

Really?

You really think the only way to be part of gun culture is to be registered member of the NRA and white?

Seriously?

There are women and children dying in our inner cities because young males are exhibiting their toxic behavior randomly. Is that a blind spot to you?

[Squinch]

26. Really? Can you read? Or are you just gaslighting me?

Twice now, I have specifically NOT said that. But you seem to have an agenda where it's important for you to think this point is being made.

I'll leave you to this conversation that you are having with yourself that has nothing whatsoever to do with what I am saying.

Carry on.

[RhodeIslandOne]

27. You have twice said black males are exposed to alpha male culture....

.....and then stopped short by saying your vision of gun culture doesn’t include them.

Shooting up an inner city basketball court and shooting up a school are both tragedies of America’s obsession with guns. Why should they be treated differently? That reeks of institutional racism, i.e. what happens in “urban areas” is best not seen or heard. If you want to argue the sociological and economic reasons behind it, fine. But same church, different pew as far as I’m concerned. It’s all toxic masculinity, and guns are part of it for whites blacks and Latinos. I really don’t know how you can say it isn’t.

[Squinch]

32. This conversation you are having with yourself seems a bit masturbatory.

That's fine, if that's what you are into, but good manners dictate that you don't make the rest of us watch it unless we consent to do so.

The more you know...

[RhodeIslandOne]

33. Tapped out huh?

I’m sorry it’s THAT hard for you to accept even a slightly different viewpoint that all you can do is hurl bizarre sexual innuendo rather than converse on a message board of all forsaken places.

Try to have a nice day.

[Squinch]

34. Just one more thing: perhaps, when you have these conversations with yourself in the real

world, you can make a habit of putting a phone earphone in your ear. That way people won't notice how weird the one-way conversation is.

No need to thank me for the idea, just trying to help you out. Thoughts and prayers to you!

[RhodeIslandOne]

35. Nah, I should just be more like you....

....and demand “echo chamber” mode, where all definitions and semantics fit my narrow arguments so any one who strays even a millimeter from my personal opinion can be cited as “off topic!” and I can declare myself victor of the debate via forfeit.

[Squinch]

36. Wish there were an internet version of those ear jacks. Because this is a bit sad.

[RhodeIslandOne]

37. No ones making you click

Then again, no one’s making you come to a discussion board when you’re allergic to conversation apparently.

[LanternWaste]

48. I can certainly understand why your narratives depends on focusing on one particular demographic

I can certainly understand why your narratives depends on focusing on one particular demographic rather than the collective sentiment as a whole illustrated in OP... regardless of the petulance reference of either allergies or clicks.




(lots of space provided free of charge below to rationalize the narrative as something it in fact, is not)

[RhodeIslandOne]

59. Still stalking me?

Speaking of echos...

It’s amazing how you obsessively follow me around yet should know damn well I don’t only speak ill of only one single demographic in regards to America’s overall bad behavior.

[ismnotwasm]

38. Why do you think gang culture is an African American phenomenon?

When talking about culture and gender, historical context is useful. I think Black men experience toxic masculinity but the prevalence of whiteness as a standard supersedes this. Native Americans can exhibit toxic masculinity even when their original culture did not, becsuse of the toxicity of the whiteness standard. I suppose it sounds academic in theory, but the fact remains White masculinity expresses itself through power over others and becomes easily toxic—and being the standard, sets the standard.

[RhodeIslandOne]

39. I accept that gang culture grew from economic suppression

It doesn’t change the problem that ultimately it’s the dominant violent male culture of an area killing their living space of a people just like anywhere else that doesn’t attempt to counter it through education and understanding and some basic love for your fellow person.

[ismnotwasm]

42. Not always

In the Northwest, in our prison system, White Supremacists cause a lot of trouble, in fact the most trouble. (This is according to my SIL, who is ex-military and joins special “teams” in prisons to counter violence) They are definitely a “gang” yet we tend to think of them as an organized group with semi-legitimacy. They can only “love” other white People. They HATE Jewish people in particular.

I am not articulating my point very well, it boils down to this; while Black males do experience and express toxic masculinity, it is a reflection of Whiteness as a forced standard. There is a long historical precedent regarding black bodies and power, or the lack of power.

[RhodeIslandOne]

43. From what I understand there are gangs in almost every prison

And they are mostly drawn on racial lines, obviously. They are protection rackets.

I get your point, trust me, but I want us to work to fix the gun problem in every part of American culture instead of debating who’s responsible. Too much of what I’m hearing seems to be geared toward the idea that if white suburban schools find a solution to being shot up, it’s somehow gonna all A) Trickle down and clean up the inner city problem of gun violence or B) No one’s really concerned about that. I think both will not necessarily be able to be fixed the same way but both are equally tragic.

[ismnotwasm]

44. Yeah

Personally I think a multi-pronged approach is necessary, ban military-grade weapons, exponentially increased spending for social workers in schools for early identification and intervention for at-risk children (not just focusing on potential shooters, for the well-being of all children) strengthening background checks, banning gun ownership from people convicted of domestic violence, required safety equipment and classes—(the NRA could be at use here, and give safety classes, gun locks and gun safes away for free) keep the buy back programs going.
There’s a bunch more interventions. Inner city violence and the larger issue of White gun ownership and violence aren’t tightly connected, but if we introduced common sense legislation that has a prayer of passing, we could help both groups.

The NRA is a huge negative, because they won’t budge in the face of evidence, and the entire Right wing seems to have lost its collective mind.

[jalan48]

6. Possibly, I think it may also be a fetish.

[gulliver]

10. What about toxic femininity and, well, humanity?

Mass slaughter in one locale? Sure. It is often the hackneyed violence scripts written for men to use as "as a last resort." But overall? No. Women and men contribute to cruel aspects of culture that result in the deaths of innocents.

[milestogo]

13. We are talking about mass shootings -

which are overwhelmingly carried out by angry white men who stockpile military grade weapons. Men are responsible for their own actions. Responsible people write their own scripts.

[Squinch]

23. LOL! Look! A squirrel!

[ismnotwasm]

31. Femininity and masculinity are largely social constructs

Classic “femininity” isn’t violent—it’s soft, gentle, sensual, giving full of acquiescence and content to be led. Classic “masculinity” is rough, authoritive, powerful, with deeds overcoming emotion.

So, no.

[Hortensis]

45. Umm, male and female brains are genetically wired differently,

though, which definitely affects cognitive functions.

We're formed first and permanently by genetically determined personality type (variations of liberal or conservative, which is huge in us) and by genetically imposed gender.

Then we're influenced in various ways and degrees by environment. How much might be by each in any person is very much up in the air at this point.

In gender we also continue to be influenced by chemical differences that affect development and function of the brain before and after birth.

Not something humankind has known for very long, but definitively established now.

[ismnotwasm]

46. Of course

Within each individual, however there are variances and anomalies. Biological differences don’t dictate what are considered traditional “feminine” and “masculine” social traits—they are still social constructs. Remember science also thought in the 1800’s women shouldn’t get much schooling because it took energy away from their uterus.

Also, what is wired where is still a matter of intense study.

[Hortensis]

47. Lol. I'm not dismissing current science yet, no matter

how dramatically earlier schools of "scientific" thought were proven wrong. But thanks for the smile. I haven't thought of that earlier wisdom for some time.

[ismnotwasm]

49. Im not dismissing it either

I love science, my first degree is in science. Let’s see if I can explain what I mean. I’m not very clear this morning Traditional femininity is based on a lot of fallacies, women are weak, women can’t learn, women aren’t good at math women can’t drive. Women can’t fight in the military, can’t be cops, can’t be scientists. Aggressiveness is seen as a negative, non-feminine trait, yet we still have aggressive women don’t we? As we have loving,nurturing “feminine” men and boys.

It’s true that testosterone affects aggression, just as it’s true women ride the rides of hormonal fluxes, yet does either make them masculine or feminine? It’s true that Studies have shown that drops in testosterone as men age lessons aggressiveness, yet is testosterone to blame for lethal aggression when the majority of men aren’t running around killing people?

Blah, I’m still not being as clear as I like. It’s a bigger discussion than I’m ready for this morning I think.

[Hortensis]

50. Sure, I know what you mean. And, right, science

has not been able to quantify the comparative effects of genetics, environment and metabolism on the mental processes of males and females.

They have definitely proven, though, they all influence who we are and that women and men, generally speaking, really do think somewhat differently because of biological, not only cultural, reasons. One piece I read discussed differences measured in the visuospatial abilities of 2-month-old babies of different sexes. Yup, the tiny boys averaged better--and different--on that one, just as men do. The differences in cognitive and emotional functioning between sexes from biological factors seemingly aren't typically large, but they are being identified and measured.

I find all these new insights exciting and valuable. Equality is taken care of for me as a universal principle of human rights. And that there really are inborn gender differences that tend to complement each other better in some cultures than other is no surprise.

[ismnotwasm]

56. Truebiology is here to stay.

the Question being, at least to me, do things like visual-spacial differences matter in any significant way, and as we evolve, will it remain?

Now I’m going to go read a couple papers on the topic, because it is interesting, and the information is out there..

[Hortensis]

58. Big questions. Enjoy.

[johnpowdy]

11. They are making up for.....smaller things

[TheFrenchRazor]

18. it is hardly limited to american/european cultures; in fact, western cultures are probably slightly

more "evolved" in this area than many in the developing world, even if this isn't saying very much. seems like the more women are devalued in a society, the more macho BS will exist.

[raven mad]

19. Then why do I own one?

Not a handgun, a shotgun, and usually the only thing it does is scare the moose out of the yard, but hey, no one can call me masculine!

[Caliman73]

54. But are you a part of "gun culture"?

Do you hang around with other owners? Take pictures of your guns? Accessorize? Subscribe to magazines about guns? Etc...

I own firearms too. I used to frequent forums for firearms owners but I stopped when I realized just how much time was being devoted to the love of guns.

That, to me is "gun culture" and I have chosen to stay away from that.

[Spider Jerusalem]

20. Gun culture seems more like a symptom of toxic Americanity

it's the result of the confluence of frontier mythology, the mythology of the Revolutonary Minutemen, and right-wing Constitutional idolatry that insists the Constitution must be interpreted exactly and literally as written with the original intent of the authors in mind. (Oh, and racism. Can 't forget that; most of the NRA-member Republican-voting types who insist they need a gun for "self-defence" probably aren't imagining white dudes as potential rapists and home invaders, after all.)

[milestogo]

24. Well, right now we are also living in full-bore Violence Culture.

[brewens]

28. It can be exactly the opposite too. The biggest gun nut I know is basically a bed wetting

mama's boy. I actually know a couple like that. Dudes that could never defend themselves physically want that equalizer.

The one dude had a guy cut him off while driving and his girlfriend had to wrestle with him to keep him from pulling his gun out from wherever he had it stashed. I really think he's a guy waiting for that "make my day" event that lets him blow someone away.

[Caliman73]

55. That is part of toxic masculinity.

Feeling that you have to be violent and quick to anger and beat someone down for "disrespecting you", whether you can or not. One thing I noticed growing up, was that the people who could really fight and who were confident, would NEVER want to fight. They would walk away or get out of it unless they had to. The ones who were trouble makers were usually the ones most afraid.

When I was growing up, I got into a number of fights and every time, I felt like I had failed. As I grew up, I would walk away from fights and people thought I was a chicken. I did not care because there aren't any winners in a fight, just injuries and more violence.

[LonePirate]

29. I think it is more about racism and irrational fear. Toxic masculinity plays a part, though.

[The_jackalope]

30. Toxic masculinity has been attached to weaponry for thousands of years.

If James DeMeo and Riane Eisler are right (and I think they are), it goes back to the emergence of dominator cultures in North Africa and an arc up through the the Caucasus about 4000 BCE.

According to deMeo, the cause was climate change in that region due to a drying event in the region he caslls "Saharasia"

The indicator is the change in proportions of artifacts from agricultural implements to weapons.

http://www.second-congress-matriarchal-studies.com/DeMeo.html

The bronze battle axe has achieved its apotheosis in the AR-15.

[JCMach1]

40. It's culture that fetishizes guns

Women sustain the legality of this crap as well.

[redstatebluegirl]

51. Totally agree, I see it every day with my crazy nephew.

He loves Trump because he is a "man's man" whatever the hell that means. My nephew is a perfect example of this type of man.

[DBoon]

52. Toxic masculinity has a political affiliation

The model of masculinity under fascist Italy was an idealized version of masculinity prescribed by dictator Benito Mussolini during his reign as fascist dictator of Italy from 1925-1943.[1][2] This model of masculinity, grounded in anti-modernism and traditional gender roles, was intended to help create a New Italian citizen in a budding New Italy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_of_masculinity_under_fascist_Italy