Sen. Sanders agrees with Trump that Amazon is problematic

[KitSileya]

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/bernie-sanders-amazon-has-gotten-too-big-we-should-look-at-its-power-and-influence/

n recent days, President Donald Trump has railed against tech giant Amazon, claiming it is abusing the Postal Service to increase its profits while not paying taxes. The president has also stated that the Washington Post is acting as a lobbyist for Amazon, obviously referring to the fact that Jeff Bezos owns both the Post and Amazon.

Appearing on CNN’s State of the Union today, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) seemed to endorse some of what the president has said of the massive company. Asked by anchor Jake Tapper if he believed Amazon had gotten too big, the independent senator answered in the affirmative.

“Yeah, I do. I do,” Sanders declared. “I think this is — look, this is an issue that has got to be looked at.”

He continued, “What we are seeing all over this country is the decline in retail. We’re seeing this incredibly large company getting involved in almost every area of commerce and I think it is important to take a look at the power and influence that Amazon has.”

This is getting to be a habit - Sen. Sanders is so focused on his economic message that he cannot see that he is giving Trump ammunition to destroy his enemies. Trump is angry over the hard-hitting journalism of the Washington Post, so he is attacking Jeff Bezos any way he can, and Sanders is an idiot if he thinks that Trump won't take his quotes and run with it. It's not like this hasn't happened before, and Sen. Sanders has so much political experience that there's only two ways to see this - either he is so stupid he doesn't care about anything other than his own message, never-mind the war the Democratic party is fighting for our lives here, or he is doing it deliberately, which says things about Sanders that is frankly horrific. Either way, he needs to get in line, or sit down and knit!

[Trust Buster]

1. And what would Sanders propose be done about Amazon ?

[KitSileya]

4. Well, after reading his NYDM interview,

I can't say that I expect he has any concrete suggestions. Practical policy proposals don't seem to be Sen. Sanders' forte, I get the impression he's more for grand statements.

[pandr32]

206. +1

[brush]

232. Doesn't he get trump is only going after Amazon because Bezos owns WAPO also, which regularly...

skewers him?

Come on, even rookie pols don't take that bait. What's next, siding with trump and the repugs when they try to put the Post Office out of business again?

I say if the P.O. and Amazon have a deal where it helps the P.O. survive and save all those thousands of jobs, leave them the hell alone. And just think how expensive mailing a letter will become if it's privatized and FedEx or UPS get all of the P.O.'s business like the repugs want?

Not to mention how inconvenient it will be to have to pick up mail from centralized locations instead of from your mailbox.

[zentrum]

296. Bezos and Amazon will never

…save a single job by the time his project is done. Which is not that far in the future.He wants to robotize and automatic the entire warehouse and mailing system. He wants to robotize and automate all of Whole Foods. He doesn't want any labor costs he can possibly avoid. He is the death knell for jobs in a few years.

All those damn human workers—they get hurt, they get pregnant, they need health care, they need healthy environments, they need time off. He wants them done and out.

[brush]

311. If they're all done and out of work who's going to buy what he's selling? Maybe all the others...

whose jobs have been off-shored, or robotized too?

[zentrum]

373. They don't care if

…we become a third world country. They don't care at all. Or they wouldn't be automating so much. And they'd pay their damn taxes.

They are automating crop picking too and all food preparation. Brought too you by fully automated trucks.

But really their eyes are all on the huge rising middle/consuming classes in India, China, Africa and the UAE.

Clearly they want just a core ten or so masters of the universe to run the entire world. They figure they'll all be gallizionaires by the time it collapses—why should they care? They'll still have a horde of servants.

[brush]

498. Doesn't make the greatest sense to destroy the middle class here to go after customers in other...

Last edited Thu Apr 5, 2018, 03:26 PM - Edit history (1)

countries much father away with higher shipping costs.

[zentrum]

591. Nah, they'll

…just have warehouses locally—in China or wherever. No need to spend a lot of shipping. In any event, saving on labor seems the one thing they are hell bent on.

Hard to wrap ones' mind around it—but they do not care at all about America or us. They. really. don't.

[brush]

593. This is getting critical. How long do they think their gated compounds will be secure if everyone...

else is hurting?

Humongous wealth gaps never lasts forever in any society.

[zentrum]

594. Agreed. But usually

…it's the mass of us who suffer the most when it implodes.

[Hortensis]

327. No, Amazon and similar operations are not ultimately

about creation of lots of modest wage-level jobs. HOWEVER, Amazon and others of its type are part of a revolution that is technology and demand/need driven. Or it wouldn't be happening.

They are hugely about giving places that are affordable to live in the desirable shopping opportunities once only available to people who could afford to live in more affluent neighborhoods and communities. MANY areas will be newly desirable for living and will see increasing property values.

They are also hugely about making remaining in place sustainable for many who would not be able to due to various types and degrees of disability. Pharmaceuticals and other necessary supplies to the door is huge.

They are hugely about raising the quality of goods available. Consumers are no longer forced to purchase from a toaster made by one of 3 manufacturers supplying the same models to every store in driving distance. Not so long ago that, and the typically shoddy merchandise it enabled, was the reality for most Americans.

They are hugely about saving money on transportation and lower emissions. Car sharing is coming, and not just for urbanites who don't need one all the time.

Before, only people who could afford to buy in upper scale neighborhoods in desirable communities had everyday access to the kind of retail that provides good quality and variety for good prices.

In the bad old days, the more income levels drop the more and more quality and variety of goods in local stores plummet and prices for what is available rise. Note, this revolution also provides services like banking at home and, as mentioned, medications, not just to outer areas but also to low-income "urban desert" neighborhoods formerly without goods and services, with a potentially vitalizing effect on many without a single tax dollar or planning department project.

This is barely the tip of the iceberg of what this revolution means. We'll have to make sure the Koch types don't think this means, if they can get control of power, they can cut road works.

[zentrum]

375. To my reading this sounds

….like company housing, where one eats big agri-food, in a grey, uniform, Company Town. There's got to be a better way to solve global warming. Sounds like a soul-killing "utopia" (and we know how utopia's go) where one's entire identity is that of "consumer".

Why build everything around the consumer model? How about dealing with systemic racism and creation, for the first time in this country, access to equal opportunity? Then poor, disadvantaged people could afford to live where they want. There's a study just done about the average net worth of Black families in Boston and it's $8.00 compared to the average net worth of Whites—$247,000. Yes, that's the study. There's still no affording good housing and food if America keeps its secret caste system.

Suggest you talk to Whole Food worker's who are willing to talk. They are miserable. Terrified. And the stores have a lot less workers on the floor if you notice.

[Demsrule86]

410. All companies are on the automation bandwagon.

[JI7]

452. every business which would benefit from Automation supports Automation

[zentrum]

592. It's just that Amazon

…is in a position to swallow so many other businesses. They did it to Whole Foods in one gulp. They are looking into health care and Pharma.

[Blue_Tires]

578. +1

[Eliot Rosewater]

253. There is a reason for this, by the way.

[Blue_true]

286. Typical Bernie.

Remember his showings before editorial boards in 2016? He seem to make grand pronouncements, but there is little structural details below the surface.

[Demit]

10. Why, he thinks we should look at the power and influence that Amazon has, of course!

Other people can work on the details. Bernie Sanders doesn't have time for that, he's the idea man.

[Wwcd]

55. Lol.."the very very big idea man", no less.

Put a mic in his face & he'll tell us "who he really his".

[George II]

110. He's also not the president. Why doesn't he introduce legislation that will do that?

"Other people can work on the details"? WHAT "details"? Isn't legislating "working on details"?

[Demit]

156. Indeed, that is central to my point.

He can't be bothered to do what those ordinary senators do.

[Eliot Rosewater]

254. LOL. thank GOD People are FINALLY getting what is happening here

thank YOU

[Mr.Bill]

94. Maybe he will recommend

that Amazon should be free for everybody and he will do everything in his power to make that happen.

(sorta)

[Trust Buster]

125. LOL

[Hoyt]

128. Ouch.

[George II]

130. Reduce the price of Amazon Prime to $27?

[Eliot Rosewater]

259. Let's not throw out universal healthcare or education with the other stuff.

I get your point and I am one of the biggest critics of you know who that I know of and for very good reason, but we need to have single payer HC and education which is tuition free like the rest of the civilized world, or at least much cheaper than it is now.

Hillary knew how to get there from here, so to speak, too bad people had to HOLD THEIR FUCKING NOSES and tell everyone around them they were.

[Demsrule86]

290. Those who voted grudgingly after telling everyone they know and online...no matter how they voted

contributed to Hillary Clinton's loss.

[Cha]

422. Yeah..

"sorta"..

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

437. Maybe Bernie should serve on Amazon's Board of Directors...

then, maybe, the Bernie bashers would be singing his praises??

[KPN]

168. Maybe ask him that? But since you brought it up, what would you propose Trust Buster?

[Trust Buster]

173. I propose nothing. Amazon has done nothing wrong.

I enjoy not being limited to brick and mortar stores in my area. Sanders is proposing to fix something that is not broken. We now live in a digital world. Sanders needs to understand that IMO.

[KPN]

178. Thanks for the confirmation.

[Trust Buster]

184. Then tell me, what issue do you and Sanders have with Amazon ? Enlighten me please.

[KPN]

190. Basically what he said. In the end, I think Amazon is contributing to a weakening

of America by way of increasing concentration of wealth and growing income inequality. This trend, left unmanaged, will be our democracy's undoing.

[Trust Buster]

193. Left unmanaged ? What steps do you think can be taken towards a company that is abiding by

Our laws of commerce ?

[KPN]

198. Not many or none. That's the problem isn't it?

[Trust Buster]

202. The wasnt much of an answer.

[KPN]

215. Don't have time to get into the history of anti-trust law and economic theory

as related to today's structural retail issues right now. When I've finished writing my book, I'll get back to you. Until then!

[Trust Buster]

220. Amazon is not an anti-trust issue. They do not preclude access to other retailers to anyone.

[KPN]

265. Predatory pricing, concentrated economic power aren't anti-trust issues?

What it comes down to is: do we value plurality over concentration as a society? Seems to me, democracy is fundamentally based on plurality. Laws are written based on values that influence the legislative process. Who is/has been influencing anti-trust law (aside from courts) over the past "x" years?

[John Fante]

340. There are a countless amount of online retailers.

Amazon isn't the only one.

[JCanete]

347. theoretical presence versus practical presence. What is Amazon's market share compared to any

other online retailer.

Ultimately though, the point is not to tie our hands with a disruptive company because they are breaking no current laws...the point is to see whether their net contribution to the American economy and American households is a net positive or negative, and then to actually create legislation if need be to make things more fair and healthy.

[Demsrule86]

389. That is a really bad idea...net positive or net negative...who decides that?

I don't believe you write legislation for a company that has broken no laws because they are successful. Do you really believe that? You can use taxes or what have you to encourage companies to do one thing or the other for the 'greater good'...but when you start ordering them to do something... you cross a line. This is a Democratic Republic.

[KPN]

354. True. However, many of them sell through Amazon

today rather than via their own website. And that number is growing. The reason for that: technological advantages that Amazon has relative to markets/marketing. Those advantages are likely to grow in Amazon's favor. The reason we as a society tend to tolerate the concentration of market share in instances like Amazon and Wal-Mart is the emphasis we place on consumer prices (which is essentially access) in our competition law. We have also always favored plurality as opposed to concentration of power in suppliers, producers, providers as a general rule in our democratic society as well as competition law. New technologies have put those two guiding principles somewhat at odds. We have created and revised laws to adapt to new technologies as a nation in the past (railroad transportation and communications are examples). There's no reason we can't do so again if it's society's will.

[Gothmog]

388. There are no anti-trust issues here

A court would throw out any lawsuit claiming an anti-trust complaint.

[Demsrule86]

294. There need be no reason. If Sen. Sanders says that is reason enough.

[JCanete]

348. Demsrule....do you really really truly think there's no problem here? Do you think Amazon is not

disrupting the job market in a negative way? Who gives a fuck about whether or not it is flaunting current law. The question is do we need new laws here?

[Demsrule86]

391. I don't think there is a problem. Amazon is successful. They have beat the competition. I don't

think we need laws to pick winners or losers. I think it would be dangerous. who decides what is too successful? if a company is within the law, hands off. I also think it would be unconstitutional to write laws directed at Amazon alone. I would like to see legislation passed to ensure fair and safe work practices for every company. There is much we can do...but singling out a company for destruction which is what is happening here is wrong...no matter who does it. Trump should have his sorry ass sued into poverty.

[JCanete]

394. Is that your only metric really? Would you take those words and apply them elsewhere?

Uber is successful. It has beat the competition. Do you know how much the average Uber driver makes nation wide when expenses are figured in? Like 3.50 an hour.

Sanders isn't singling out a company, but companies that have enormous power do deserve to be held accountable for what they do, legislatively. Trump is singling out amazon, but then that's because Trump only cares about Trump. He's right here for the wrong reasons, and of course he would simply prefer that other more traditionally predatory industries continue to reap the spoils.

Of course it would be unconstitutional to target a specific company, though I don't think unconstitutional to construct legislation that happens to only apply to one company. That said, what Trump would do, we know would be bad. But the problem with threads like this is they get muddied and Sanders and Trump perspectives on this matter get lumped together. And this op was about sanders agreement with Trump, not Trump's own dipshit criminal solution to a problem.

[Demsrule86]

408. That doesn't mean we punish Uber ...we change the minimum wage laws...and on a

personal note,we maybe boycott Uber...but elected politicians have no business picking winners and losers in business. I find Sanders words troubling because it echoes Trump and gives Trump legitimacy...when he deserves none. And what exactly can Sen. Sanders or any Senator do about it? They have violated no laws...and there are equally or more powerful companies.

[JCanete]

449. Yes of course they do have business regulating industries. How could you possibly say they don't?

In every aspect, that is the governments job...to consider the wellbeing of its citizens. If today, a power plant is pumping poison into the air, you regulate it. But but but...you might say, that unfairly impacts that business and not the solar industry. are we now in the business of picking winners and losers? Yes of course we are. Making different laws for different companies...that is probably not acceptable, but fuck yes, its our job to tell companies what they can and cannot do, and how they have to do it. That is what minimum wage laws are. That is what OSHA is.

Uber doesn't need to be boycotted, its business model is exploitive and undercuts the minimum wage by creating a nonsense scenario where these people are considered their contractors, yet these contractors don't set their own prices...they are their employees and should have protections as such, and should be guaranteed a certain salary while on the clock.

You do realize that in the end we the people subsidize these industries right, the way we do the employees at Walmart who make so little that they qualify for government assistance? I just don't get where this idea of hands off is coming from from you. That or I'm reading something into your post that you didn't mean.

[Demsrule86]

479. No doubt the government needs to regulate business...but attacking a private company is not

regulation. That comes through congress-legislation... making comments on twitter or on television is not appropriate as it messes with a company's stock as we have clearly seen. I think you are a bit defensive about this...and I get that too.I have seen some of the comments concerning Sen. Sanders, and I would not make such comments. But it doesn't change the fact that what Trump did is wrong. He probably is using it to enrich himself. And Sen. Sanders needs be careful not making comments that are supportive of Trump. Also, I think saying Amazon is a problem is irresponsible. Amazon is a company that has followed existing law and is no different than any other company in that respect. I sincerely hope that Amazon sues the crap out of Trump and if Sen. Sanders doesn't rescind his remarks...he should be sued too so no other government official thinks it ok to say crap about a company and tank its stock for profit or for revenge.

[JCanete]

497. That view pretends that these companies don't have heavy influence on politics

Last edited Tue Apr 3, 2018, 01:53 PM - Edit history (2)

and on the media. They aren't doing no wrong whatsoever, unless you mean that they are helping to write the rules by which they are doing no wrong.That is what lobbying is about to say nothing of individual and corporate donations and funding of superpacs, etc, and I assure you, Amazon has a powerful lobby. Do you have a problem with political figures mentioning the Koch brothers? If so why?

So you want these companies to do what they want with impunity and then for nobody to question their actions .The lobbying is often behind closed doors. What they are asking for is behind closed doors. You have to look at what they are getting and allowed to do, and then draw attention to that because that tells a story.

[Demsrule86]

509. Maybe they do...but I don't want politicians deciding winners and loser and than deliberately

attacking. It is wrong.

[JCanete]

512. what trump is doing is irresponsible. Lets not conflate everything together. If a company is

behaving in problematic ways, even if it is well within the legal framework to do so, I absolutely want people with a megaphone to say so. That is doing what politicians should be doing...drawing attention to what is affecting the wellbeing of American citizens and of course, attempting to legislate to bring things into some sort of sanity. I assure you that while you are suggesting that politicians stay mum on corporations, corporations will not stay mum about politicians, nor will their political mouthpieces who are seated stay mum. You are advocating for getting hit in the face and not punching back.

[Demsrule86]

535. There is no evidence that Amazon has done anything wrong...there is no investigation and this is not

some sort of negative story about Amazon. This is about the president of the United States abusing his power and Sen. Sanders and apparently Sen. Warren (heard it this morning) agreeing with him... that Amazon is a problem. NO they are the problem. Agreeing with Trump is never a good idea...not ever. It is wrong. I don't care who is involved. I don't want a president or Senators able to attack companies willy nilly because they hate the company or don't like their policies or even because they are planning a short sale of stock. That is not how our government is supposed to conduct our business...hold hearings or whatever. And the damage to stocks- many of which are held in pensions is a terrible thing. For a president of the united States attack a successful business and cost said business billions of dollars is an abuse of power. Both Warren and Sanders should understand that. I hope Bezos sues the piss out of Trump and any who support Trump in his efforts to destroy Amazon because that is what is going on here.

[Sophia4]

217. Antitrust law is essential in our system. It should be enforced more than it is.

Amazon is not the only problem we have with regard to antitrust law. But we don't really know what portion of the on-line market Amazon has. Many of us buy from a lot of different companies, not just Amazon.

[Trust Buster]

221. And because you have the freedom to buy from a lot of different companies, Amazon is not even

Close to being an anti-trust issue. In fact, the Amazon model facilitates access to more sellers unlike anything we have ever experienced before.

[Sophia4]

223. I hope someone studies the market percentages and tells the real story on this.

I'd like to know what share of the on-line sales market Amazon has. It may be a lot less than people think. It's just that Amazon offers a wide range of products while other on-line sales companies specialize in one type of product such as garden seeds or shoes or electronic gear or books. Amazon offers them all but may not have as large a share of the entire market as Trump thinks. This deserves to be studied.

[Trust Buster]

233. Amazon enables access to more competition and not less.

That is the very antithesis of Anti-trust behavior.

[Sophia4]

242. We'd have to study the sales percentages in the on-line aspect of the market.

You could well be right.

Department stores sell lots of different product lines, but each has a portion of the overall market.

I'd like to know how large the on-line market as a total part of retail sales is.

I'd like to know what share of the on-line market Amazon has.

But I would also like to know to what extent stores like Walmart and Target have affected the retail store outlet market.

[Trust Buster]

261. It doesnt matter. Anti-Trust hinges on access and competition.

[Sophia4]

269. And how do you determine access and competition if not in part by market share.

[Trust Buster]

300. Demand determines that as long as the market is accessible. Amazon increased market accessibility

[Sophia4]

396. But how much of the market does Amazon itself dominate?

Probably not really too much, but then we need to demand the numbers.

[Demsrule86]

392. Successful companies gain market share...it is why they are successful. It doesn't mean they have

violated antitrust laws. You simply can't decide one company or another is a 'bad' company and go after it...as a president or a Senator.

[Sophia4]

395. We have antitrust laws and regulations.

But I don't know whether Amazon's market share or market dominance is great enough to trigger application of those laws and regulations. It's not my area of expertise.

[Demsrule86]

405. anti-trust is not based on market share.

[sprinkleeninow]

407. I am progressively getting weary from Bernie. eom

[Demsrule86]

295. Amazon isn't violating anti-trust...but I am sure that once Sen. Sanders says some will immediately

invoke it.

[Gothmog]

381. You got to be kidding

There is no basis for an antitrust complaint in the real world. A court would throw such a claim out if anyone tried to sue on this basis.

Just because one dislikes something does not mean that it is illegal

[George II]

401. No anti-trust laws are being violated.

[JCanete]

350. what the fuck...We need to regulate the digital world and Amazon. We need to, hey, bust trusts. What

is your definition of doing nothing wrong? Being immoral versus being amoral are really distinctions not worth making. I also like the conveniences of the modern world, but that doesn't mean we should let Uber and Amazon disrupt whole industries and put people out of work at a massive scale(replacing some of those jobs with lower paying alternatives) without doing some sort of mitigation...without making sure that they aren't sucking money right to the top, touching fewer and fewer hands and depressing rather than stimulating the economy in the long term.

The move to the future requires a new tax structure that rains more and more of the consolidated wealth back onto the public before it evaporates back into those few hands, and frankly what we really need is UBI, paid for in large part by the profits of corporations like Amazon. I am totally fine with moving to a world where there is less demand for workers (at a living decent wage anyway) and more liesure available as people can be guaranteed their fundamental needs, but until then stop-gaps have to be considered. Ways to prevent massive worker displacement and wage depression.

Just because Amazon is breaking no laws(thus doing nothing wrong?) due to what current laws actually exist is not justification for why there should not be laws that force them to adjust their practices.

And conflicts of interest regarding our news outlets and the industries that own them is incredibly insidious. It is fucking hilarious that Trump has brought this up but then this man is entirely irony free, but it is still a huge problem that needs some sort of address.

[Demsrule86]

293. Amazon does not meet the criteria that would invoke a trustbuster...Trump just hates Bezos...and

Sen. Sanders should not have spoken about it...he is a sitting senator. President Trump is merely enriching his cronies and of course he hates Amazon...he should not have said it either. The stock market is tanking.

[KPN]

362. What are the criteria and what social-economic

policies and theories are they based on? Laws are ephemeral. They can be changed to reflect prevailing values as they have in the past.

Out of curiosity. Projecting Amazon's trend in breadth and share of markets into the future, would you say its benefits to society outweigh its costs or the reverse? Or put another way, are the benefits of sufficient value to not be concerned?

[Demsrule86]

393. There are plenty of online places to buy things besides Amazon. I like local retail and

I disliked it when the big box stores drove them out of business. But I don't believe you can legislate winners or losers...and Amazon has done something very well and changed retail. I see no reason to punish them. And to me it smacks of jealousy. What prevailing value is involved in knee capping a successful company because you deem it is necessary as a 'value' or what have you? What would happen is you would drive business out of this country. I also believe it would be unconstitutional to target a specific business.

[bigtree]

2. Sanders still invested in undermining the two party system.

...it infects every political move he makes.

His lack of care or concern for the Democratic party makes him a willing dupe on Trump bait like this.

[PaulX2]

120. We Have A Money Driven System Parties Are Secondary

If you want to run for office on change there is 50 trillion dollars in wealth insuring nothing changes.

Bernie seems to be one of the only ones talking about it.

I have been saying Amazon is destroying small businesses for years.

Glad Bernie understands.

[George II]

144. "Bernie seems to be one of the only ones talking about it"? Isn't trump talking about it too?

But, since you say this, what is Sanders DOING about it other than talking? Anything? I haven't seen any legislation authored by him on this issue, have you?

[PaulX2]

147. Getting Young People Involved Instead Of Giving Up George

Ask yourself why so few young people show up to vote. Because there are less Bernies' out there, and a lot more folks ignoring the fact that our economy benefits billionaires first, and the rest of us are supposed to live on crumbs.

Amazon is a threat to thousands / millions of small businesses.

They use their scale to have a huuuuuuge advantage, and then return low priced goods, but not much else to society while thousands are being laid off, or having their wages cut to compete. Some win and some lose. Saying it needs to be addressed is fine with me.

I think your tax rate should be determined by your market cap.

Now there's and idea.....

And my name isn't Bernie.

[Demsrule86]

297. My kids and their friends don't like Sen. Sanders and will not vote for him.

[LSFL]

312. Mine are the same

Too get off my lawnish for them.

[Demsrule86]

333. I think Sen. Sanders has lost more support than some realize. I see him trying to appeal to Trump

voters ...do you suppose he plans and independent run?

[PaulX2]

403. Saying We Shouldn't Insult Them Is Not Exactly Reaching Out To Them

Even though we should be insulting them....

[Demsrule86]

404. I think the identity thing and Mello...was reaching out to them.

He has said we need to reach out to the white working class...that is Trump voters. I just want to win in 18 and 20...

[True Blue American]

466. Smart kids!

They should check Bernie’s past until he managed to become Mayor of a small town.

Jane is under indictment for scamming, putting a College into bankruptcy.j

[Demsrule86]

475. I don't know about any of that, but they want fresh younger candidates in 20.

[lunamagica]

317. Then why they didn't show up to vote for Sanders?

[True Blue American]

478. Maybe they were not impressed

By a wild haired old man promising everything? I am old, I was not impressed.

Young people are smart, they see through the tired old promises they know will never happen as long as the debt is so large.

These kids are becoming more Democratic as they see who is blowing the budget, neglecting Global warming they know is fact.

They want younger leaders.

I can still remember the generational change when John Kennedy ran.
It is taking place again and Democrats need to encourage the change.

[lunamagica]

502. That's what I think. They were not impressed

The rallies took place near college campuses. It was easy to attend, and something to do that didn't cost money. But once there Sanders didn't impress them enough to vote and his "revolution" never materialized.

I have a lot of faith in the Parkland students and their generation. They seem to be really motivated to vote.

[True Blue American]

504. I am really,truly impressed

With this young generation. They are so much more adult than most of us were.

Of course seeing your friends die in front of you, knowing unit could have been them makes you grow up very quick.

Seeing the corrupted mess of our Government they are demanding change. And are working to get it.

Big talk and false promises are not enough for them.

[lapucelle]

513. Then why does BS allow the products he sells to be carried by Amazon?

Maybe he should lead an Amazon boycott.

[DonCoquixote]

145. flip side

I have purchased a lot of stuff from small buisness, be they tea or art supllies, that I was ONLY able to get via amazon. Retail is not mom and pop, nor will it ever be.

[bigtree]

149. he got roped into Trump's latest distraction

...what's the value in associating ANYTHING he advocates with this counterfeit loser?

That's your pitch against parties? Against the Democratic party? That there's money influencing both of them? It's this kind of brain-dead sophistry which sank his primary bid.

[PaulX2]

212. So Being Robbed Is OK With You?

Not me.

I'm not equating dems with republican scum. There is a reason half this country doesn't vote. Maybe we could ask ourselves why.

[bigtree]

236. lol

You: "I'm not equating dems with republican scum."

Also you: "We Have A Money Driven System Parties Are Secondary"

...brain-dead sophistry. Quixotic nonsense, at best.

Curious going on about young folks bothering to vote. I clearly remember Bernie's large crowds often failing to result in a proportionate number at the polls.

[Demsrule86]

299. Oh please...some just have no interest in politics...Sander has little to do with it or most things

for that matter. He is an independent and a sitting Senator. That's that. He will not win a Democratic primary in 20. Personally, I don't care what he says, but when the president and a sitting senator attack a private company, I am disturbed by it. No government official should engage in this practice.

[Texin]

123. He's the Ralph Nader of our times.

If it hadn't been for Nader, we never would have had four years of Shrub.

[Jim Lane]

227. Bullshit. He's the opposite.

Nader should have done what Bernie did -- seek the Democratic nomination and then, if unsuccessful, endorse the nominee.

If Nader had done what Bernie did, Gore would have become President.

[R B Garr]

330. LOL. These contortions are so abysmal lately.

At least that is a sign that the insincerity is unsustainable, so there’s that.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

425. Ding ding ding... we have a winner!!!

[Gothmog]

307. Nader was key in giving Bush the 2000 victory

We lost the 2000 election due to Nader and his stupidity re are some facts on this http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

Nader-voters who spurned Democrat Al Gore to vote for Nader ended up swinging both Florida and New Hampshire to Bush in 2000. Charlie Cook, the editor of the Cook Political Report and political analyst for National Journal, called "Florida and New Hampshire" simply "the two states that Mr. Nader handed to the Bush-Cheney ticket," when Cook was writing about "The Next Nader Effect," in The New York Times on 9 March 2004. Cook said, "Mr. Nader, running as the Green Party nominee, cost Al Gore two states, Florida and New Hampshire, either of which would have given the vice president [Gore] a victory in 2000. In Florida, which George W. Bush carried by 537 votes, Mr. Nader received nearly 100,000 votes [nearly 200 times the size of Bush's Florida 'win']. In New Hampshire, which Mr. Bush won by 7,211 votes, Mr. Nader pulled in more than 22,000 [three times the size of Bush's 'win' in that state]." If either of those two states had gone instead to Gore, then Bush would have lost the 2000 election; we would never have had a U.S. President George W. Bush, and so Nader managed to turn not just one but two key toss-up states for candidate Bush, and to become the indispensable person making G.W. Bush the President of the United States -- even more indispensable, and more important to Bush's "electoral success," than were such huge Bush financial contributors as Enron Corporation's chief Ken Lay.

All polling studies that were done, for both the 2000 and the 2004 U.S. Presidential elections, indicated that Nader drained at least 2 to 5 times as many voters from the Democratic candidate as he did from the Republican Bush. (This isn't even considering throw-away Nader voters who would have stayed home and not voted if Nader had not been in the race; they didn't count in these calculations at all.) Nader's 97,488 Florida votes contained vastly more than enough to have overcome the official Jeb Bush / Katherine Harris / count, of a 537-vote Florida "victory" for G.W. Bush. In their 24 April 2006 detailed statistical analysis of the 2000 Florida vote, "Did Ralph Nader Spoil a Gore Presidency?" (available on the internet), Michael C. Herron of Dartmouth and Jeffrey B. Lewis of UCLA stated flatly, "We find that ... Nader was a spoiler for Gore." David Paul Kuhn, CBSNews.com Chief Political Writer, headlined on 27 July 2004, "Nader to Crash Dems Party?" and he wrote: "In 2000, Voter News Service exit polling showed that 47 percent of Nader's Florida supporters would have voted for Gore, and 21 percent for Mr. Bush, easily covering the margin of Gore's loss." Nationwide, Harvard's Barry C. Burden, in his 2001 paper at the American Political Science Association, "Did Ralph Nader Elect George W. Bush?" (also on the internet) presented "Table 3: Self-Reported Effects of Removing Minor Party Candidates," showing that in the VNS exit polls, 47.7% of Nader's voters said they would have voted instead for Gore, 21.9% said they would have voted instead for Bush, and 30.5% said they wouldn't have voted in the Presidential race, if Nader were had not been on the ballot. (This same table also showed that the far tinier nationwide vote for Patrick Buchanan would have split almost evenly between Bush and Gore if Buchanan hadn't been in the race: Buchanan was not a decisive factor in the outcome.) The Florida sub-sample of Nader voters was actually too small to draw such precise figures, but Herron and Lewis concluded that approximately 60% of Florida's Nader voters would have been Gore voters if the 2000 race hadn't included Nader. Clearly, Ralph Nader drew far more votes from Gore than he did from Bush, and on this account alone was an enormous Republican asset in 2000.

[Jim Lane]

406. I agree about Florida but disagree about New Hampshire

Your excerpt states that

in the VNS exit polls, 47.7% of Nader's voters said they would have voted instead for Gore, 21.9% said they would have voted instead for Bush, and 30.5% said they wouldn't have voted in the Presidential race, if Nader were had not been on the ballot.

Some of Nader's defenders argue that it can't be assumed that all Nader voters would have voted for Gore if Nader hadn't run. That's true, but it also can't be assumed that he had no net effect. The above statistic, if it would have applied in New Hampshire, would mean that a Nader decision to exercise his right not to run (instead of his undoubted right to run) would have produced a net swing to Gore of: 47.7% minus 21.9% equals 25.8% of the Nader total. (I've seen other polling that gave this difference as low as 13%.)

The New Hampshire votes were:
Bush 273,559
Gore 266,348
Nader 22,198

Without Nader, the net gain to Gore would have been 25.8% of 22,198, which is 5,727. That's less than Bush's 7,211-vote margin of victory. Put another way, if you augment Gore's total by 47.7% of 22,198 and augment Bush's total by 21.9% of 22,198, Bush still wins the state.

A caveat is that those exit polls were taken immediately after a campaign in which the Democrats had of course been opposing Nader, thus of course generating some ill will. My guess is that, if Nader had never run, some of those people who said they wouldn't have voted for Gore actually would have. As against that, if Nader himself had not run then the Greens would have run someone else who would have gotten at least some votes, so Gore wouldn't have been able to count even on the full 47.7% of the Nader votes that he would have gotten in a two-person race.

Two things are clear. First, Florida (unlike New Hampshire) was so close that Nader's decision to run definitely made the difference there.

Second, Bernie's decision NOT to emulate Nader was a great benefit to the Democratic Party. Bernie foresaw in 2014 that, if he ran in the general election as a Green or an independent, he "would be taking votes away from the Democratic candidate and making it easier for some right-wing Republican to get elected—the [Ralph] Nader dilemma." Although the Naderites vehemently disagree, I think Bernie was right. If he had followed Nader's path and run in November, then Hillary Clinton or whoever else won the Democratic nomination would have lost millions of votes to him. Trump would probably have won the popular vote and would have flipped some close Clinton wins, like Minnesota and New Hampshire. This is one reason that equating Bernie with Nader is so misguided.

[alarimer]

491. 300,000 Democrats voted for Bush in Florida.

Its wasn't fucking Nader's doing. The margin ended up being about 500 votes.

[Eliot Rosewater]

260. It makes me angry that we cant have these issues, he TAKES them from us. We

need to do something about Walmart, they are a blight on our society and maybe as time goes on even Amazon could be compelled to include more people in their profits as we are NEVER going back to brick and mortar, never.

Just like I am for Universal HC and tuition free etc., but I know who can do this and who cant and who really means to do it in the first place.

[njhoneybadger]

3. Nice Bernie, way to suck up to tRump voters

[whathehell]

9. Lol.. Bernie doesn't "suck up" to squat..

Some seem to need to keep re-fighting the primaries, though.

[marble falls]

11. Bingo.

[whathehell]

19. Thank you.

[marble falls]

143. We Democrats are shooting ourselves in the foot. We need to remember the upcoming election...

and remember neither Bernie or Hillary are running, and that they are both out right now supporting Democrats in elections all over the country. And that's where we all need to expending our energies. Some of us get it.

[whathehell]

361. Ansolutely..

I mean, who has time for the divisive BS?

Democrats and those who stand with Democrats do not.

[backtoblue]

397. + 1 nt

[EffieBlack]

12. Sanders sucked up to Trump voters in the 2016 primaries? I missed that

[whathehell]

16. Yeah, so did the rest of the world..

Try again.

[betsuni]

15. Something Sanders says April, 2018 is refighting the primaries?

[whathehell]

17. Lol..

I like that you're easily amused...It seems a lot of the Bernie Haters are.

[betsuni]

25. Oh dear! Am I supposed to be upset?

[whathehell]

32. Oh dear! Am I supposed to care?

Knock yourself out with those ROGLMAOs :

[betsuni]

59. Obviously you do care.

I'm knocking myself out and you're watching.

[whathehell]

67. Less obviously than you..

but keep knocking yourself out.

[betsuni]

79. Refighting the primaries in 2018!

[NurseJackie]

91. I know! Nobody is actually doing that... so that's not what it is.

This appears to be the default "go-to" response/accusation (no matter what the topic of criticism may be) and it is laughably outdated.

[betsuni]

105. It's absurd.

What sort of person thinks that what Bernie Sanders says and does something in 2018 is about 2016? Are they a Dickens character like Miss Havisham in her old wedding dress refighting the primaries forever? Oh wait, probably they project that onto people who voted for the Democratic nominee.

[Cha]

421. That's their go to when

they have no defense for his latest.

Thank you for calling it out, betsuni

[Eliot Rosewater]

262. We are moments from annihilation of the human race and people keep insisting on

their way or the highway, unfuckingbelievable

[sheshe2]

182. I know. Right?

[EffieBlack]

272. Don't you know? ANYTHING short of "Bernie's so DREAMY!" is refitting the primaries

Even a comment Sanders makes in April 2018 agreeing with something Trump said in 2018 that Trump will use to his advantage in the 2018 midterms and 2020 general election.

Got it?

[whathehell]

359. Whatever floats your boat

Buh bye.

[Wwcd]

60. He made his bed, starting with Russia Today.

Didn't care then & he doesn't care now, apparently.

[njhoneybadger]

104. Really, WTH

[Dream Girl]

342. If you say anything critical of Sanders your are "refighting the primary"

[NurseJackie]

376. It's an intellectually lazy way to bully people who are critical of what Sanders says and does in...

It's an intellectually lazy way to bully people who are critical of what Sanders says and does in 2018. Of course everyone knows that this criticism has absolutely nothing to do with the primary. At this point, however, I think they just use that as their "go-to" deflection (without even pausing for a moment to consider if it's valid or not) because it's been so successful in the past.

All I'm trying to say is that is really serves no good purpose for Sanders' defenders to resort to divisive name calling (ie: "haters'') or to pretend that things being said in 2018 are related to the primary of 2016. They're not.

[PatSeg]

21. Yes

And a lot of people have a problem with Amazon. I used to use Amazon for most of my online purchases, but since they refuse to stop advertising on Breitbart, I've cut way back. There have been numerous petitions and Bezos won't even acknowledge them. Meanwhile, reports of brutal working conditions in Amazon's warehouses do not help the company's image. They are turning into an online Walmart.

Amazon's customer service used to be exceptional, but now complaints about the Breitbart advertising have gone unanswered and when the message boards filled up with irate comments about the issue, Amazon responded by taking down all the message boards.

Trump has his own reasons to go after Amazon, but many customers have genuine concerns about the company.

[whathehell]

29. Of course.

Unfortunately, some here are so intent on shooting the messenger, they can't see the message.

[PatSeg]

37. Apparently

I think we can be against Amazon AND Trump at the same time. Occasionally, Trump will inadvertently say something that is true, though his motives are questionable. Trump sees Bezos as his enemy, so he has to attack, it is in his nature.

[whathehell]

46. Of course we can..

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[PatSeg]

48. Even ugly, bloated, orange ones!

[safeinOhio]

95. Looks like a lot of people have spoke about large corps.

including Hillary.

“large corporations are concentrating control over markets” and “using their power to raise prices, limit choices for consumers, lower wages for workers, and hold back competition from startups and small businesses. It’s no wonder Americans feel the deck is stacked for those at the top.” In a speech in Toledo last fall, Clinton assailed “old-fashioned monopolies” and vowed to appoint “tough” enforcers “so the big don’t keep getting bigger and bigger.”

Might that agree with Bernie on Amazon, just not mentioning Amazon?

I think we would do better not attacking progressives and stick to the real assholes.

[PatSeg]

102. Lord knows

there are more than enough assholes to keep us busy. People need to choose their fights more carefully. What a total waste of energy to go after Bernie Sanders, when we appear to have a crime syndicate running the executive branch.

[safeinOhio]

107. Exactly.

He got a lot of young people thinking about politics. Looking at the age groups that are against repubs, progressives are great no matter what their name is. I voted for Hillary even though I don't always agree with her.

[PatSeg]

129. Though I've always liked Bernie Sanders,

I didn't think he was the right candidate for president. Of the choices we had, Hillary was the most qualified, though I think a bigger field of primary candidates would have been healthier.

There is no candidate that I always agree with, that is more a republican thing I think.

[Wwcd]

151. Well, he just sided with that crime syndicate in the White House.

He is making a public statement and deserves to be gone after by anyone in the public who recoils from such a statement.

Wth.

[PatSeg]

157. I'm sorry

It sounds like an over reaction to me. Opposing Amazon as a company is not synonymous with supporting Trump.

[Wwcd]

163. Haaha..re-read the headline, at least.

[PatSeg]

189. Yeah, I read the headline

and it is not what Sanders said AND is not the headline of the article.

Bernie Sanders: Amazon Has Gotten Too Big, We Should Look At Its ‘Power and Influence’

Appearing on CNN’s State of the Union today, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) seemed to endorse some of what the president has said of the massive company. Asked by anchor Jake Tapper if he believed Amazon had gotten too big, the independent senator answered in the affirmative.

“Yeah, I do. I do,” Sanders declared. “I think this is — look, this is an issue that has got to be looked at.”

He continued, “What we are seeing all over this country is the decline in retail. We’re seeing this incredibly large company getting involved in almost every area of commerce and I think it is important to take a look at the power and influence that Amazon has.”

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/bernie-sanders-amazon-has-gotten-too-big-we-should-look-at-its-power-and-influence/

Apparently the poster wrote their own headline, implying that Bernie was supporting Trump.

Sanders went on to state that the Trump administration really needs to look into raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, reducing the price of prescription drugs and having millionaires and billionaires pay their fair share of taxes.

It appears that Sanders opposes Trump's agenda, as everyone knows that Trump is not going make millionaires and billionaires pay their fair share of taxes, etc. If Tapper or anyone else asked ME if I thought Amazon had gotten too big, I would also answer in the affirmative.

[Demsrule86]

544. He basically agreed with Trump who is attempting to destroy a company that has done nothing wrong

that I can see...very disappointing.

[efhmc]

160. As a feminist, I have never supported Bernie and as a Democrat I

think he is deeply harmful. He is NOT A DEMOCRAT and yet has used and abused and continues to misuse our party.

[Wwcd]

167. Its hard to know for sure what Party he'll call himself next.

That's the problem.
Where is his loyalty at any given time?
No one knows.

[safeinOhio]

192. So you would have voted for trump?

I’m sure you would not have. So you would have stayed home? I hope not.
Bernie, just like Hillary would have been better for women and Dems than trump. I’d take either one. Period.

[efhmc]

258. It is my opinion that someone who is not a member of

whatever party should not be a candidate within that party. If your rebuttal is that he "became" a member of our party, then why is he now listed as an independent Senator and not a Democrat? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2017/10/23/bernie-sanders-i-am-an-independent/792186001/

[progressoid]

380. So if he had gotten the Dem nomination, you wouldn't have voted for him?

You seem to have ignored that question.

[safeinOhio]

384. I'm old enough to remember a Democrat win the Michigan primary and I would have

voted for about anyone else if he had got the nomination. So, I would never say never and never would have voted for George Wallace. Would you if he were the Dem running?

[Eliot Rosewater]

264. Ya want something new to worry about? Open primaries, now in CA and elsewhere

NEVER benefit the Democratic party and will ALWAYS benefit either the GOP or progressives who seek to weaken the existing democrats.

[True Blue American]

489. Having worked at the polls

Watching my Republican neighbors, good Evangelical Christians try to vote for what they thought would be the weakest Candidate,(Obama,) being challenged on it by our fair minded Republican Judge, forced to sign a paper declairing they were Democrats I gained insights into Evangelical thinking. Never forgot that.

[True Blue American]

467. Thank you!

Bernie lied about remaining a Democrat after he lost.

[KPN]

177. You must be kidding, right?

[KPN]

138. Exactly.

[Wwcd]

175. Lets ask Hillary how she feels about Don the Con's scamming of the

public trust, before you go dragging her into this shithole dug by bernie & trump.

He fking agrees with Trump.
And you deflect to Hillary to defend it?!

That's your go to defense?!

Wow.

[EffieBlack]

183. But Hillary isn't stupid enough to do it in a way that sounds like she's on Trump's side and allows

him to use her to make his own point.

Bernie is either a pure opportunist who doesn't care who he hurts just so he can be heard or he's just stupid.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

442. How dare you bring Hillary into this and point out the hypocrisy?!

[Demsrule86]

537. This is not about large corporations. Thi is about the president of the United States going

after a company and attempting to destroy it. And this is also about a sitting Senator giving Trump cover. Neither Trump nor Sanders has the right to make intentional (lying) or in Sander's case careless statements about a company and cause billions of dollars in losses...you think they are a monopoly investigate it properly. I don't think they are . But there are laws on the books...but attacking companies in the media is wrong.

[Wwcd]

62. Trump has a message also.

Just sayin...

[whathehell]

63. Um, yeah..

I think we all get that.

[Wwcd]

82. Um yeah, we all hear what bernie is saying.

He agrees with he biggest money laundering, mobster con man of all time over a business the size of Amazon..because, because, because...

WTF!

Maybe he will send Weaver out in a day or so to clarify what he really meant.

There's so much bs on his statement its hard to not recoil in disgust.

Take his mic away, please.

[shenmue]

109. Yeah

[whathehell]

338. Ever hear the saying "Even a broken clock is right twice a day"?

A lot of people have issues with Amazon..Just because Trump ALSO has issues, doesn't mean we -- or Bernie -- are compelled to disagree with it or turn in our liberal bona fides.

[Wwcd]

339. Dig deeper. The everybody does it defense isn't convincing anyone new.

Geezuz..

[whathehell]

349. You dig deeper...I don't need to convince "anyone new"

and neither does Bernie, and I believe that about does it for this
conversation. Have a nice day.

[Wwcd]

352. Haa. Nah, I asked you first.

Chirp 🎵

[Wwcd]

343. Maybe bernie should have opted out of the battle between global billionares

Trump's losing money on Amazon.

That's what this battle is about. Until that point Trump never gave 2 shits about corporate money bilking anyone, in fact Trump's the biggest con of them all.

Whatever give ya airtime bern...

[whathehell]

344. Maybe, as a citizen and US senator, Bernie can say whatever he wants.

Just a thought.

[Wwcd]

351. And maybe what he says reveals more about who he really is.

Keep grabbing that mic bern.
Trump will help promote bernie in 3..2..1..when he uses berns own words to defend himself against Amazon.
Senator Bern & President Donald..go up against a private company because Trump is losing money on Amazon's success.

Nice of him to lend Trump a hand.

[whathehell]

356. Nah..Not to anyone but

a small group of dedicated anti-Berners, I'd guess, so I'm not concerned.... As I said, in my last post, this conversation is over. Have a nice day. :

[Wwcd]

360. Haaha...ok! Bernie sides with Con Man Trump!

He now has legitimized Trump's vengeful need to harm Amazon because Amazon caused Trump to lose a lot of money.

What are friends for!

Bye, again

[EffieBlack]

358. But Hillary's supposed to go away and shut the eff up

Gotcha

[Wwcd]

411. K & R

Careful. Knives are out!
A case of dishing it out but can't take it.

[EffieBlack]

414. Yup. Indeed

Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi are fair game but that doesn't apply to everyone.

[Wwcd]

416. Yup. Can't speak the truth about non Democrats but lies told for over a year about

Democrats are ok.
Nothing has changed since 2015.

Richard Painter said it best today:

Link to tweet

?s=20

I hope Bezos sues the pants off of those aligning with Trump.
We see them too, Mr Painter.

Here's his twitter feed.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RWPUSA/status/980873317317038080

[True Blue American]

465. I love Richard

How in good conscience can he remain a Republican?

He laid Hugh Hewitt on the floor yesterday! But he is thinking of running in Al Franken’s seat. That would mean another Republican.

[whathehell]

595. Where, pray tell, did I say that Hillary should 'shut the eff and go away"?

Answer: Nowhere. Looks like I'm not "got" after all.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

86. Precisely, for some, the rule of thumb is NEVER miss an opportunity to diss Bernie...

which only pulls scabs off old "primary wounds" and creates disunity. I don't get it... never will.

[Wwcd]

112. Bernie should stop giving those "others" reason to be disgusted with his statements.

He agrees with the dirtiest con man criminal of all time?!!!
And those "others" have to be silent because his name is bernie sanders?

Stop coddling him. This statement was flat out bad news.

[Kentonio]

142. You think Trump has never ever said anything that is true?

Come on now, time for us to be grown ups. He’s vile, obnoxious and does a huge amount of terrible things, but that doesn’t mean every single thing he wants must be opposed at all costs. Voters don’t understand that kind of thinking, and get really angry with politics because of it.

[Wwcd]

154. OMFG! Time for bernie to own his disgusting statement

Don't shift this convo to but but, Trump does it too...

That is not defending bernie's statement
That is avoiding it.

[Kentonio]

171. Oh for Christs sake

Seriously, you think Sanders saying Amazon getting too big and powerful is a ‘disgusting statement’?

[Wwcd]

181. Bernie also "Agrees with Trump". The money laundering mobster.

There's a reason why Trump has singled out Amazon & its not for some righteous cause.

Everything Trump disses is for his own personal gain.

Nice of bernie to assist.

Mfa

[Kentonio]

191. Bernies reasons for finding Amazon problematic have nothing to do with Trumps reasons

Or so you suggest that because Trump said what he did, that’s Bernie should just lie when asked if he has any issues with Amazon? Is that how far we’ve fallen?

[Wwcd]

247. The fall began when he shook RT's hand & got a media gig.

Deal was made & as bernie himself said, he was in it for Money & Media.

You can be just fine with that, but the rest of us see it as a nefariois & suspicious deal made to suit someone other than the general good of society.

He agrees with one billionare con man who's called out anotber global billionare .

[Demsrule86]

539. Bernie should have called out the president's obvious abuse of power not essentially agreeing with

him. He said something like Yes, Amazon is a problem...terrible response.

[David__77]

292. There may be an Amazon Party in the making!

...

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

418. Well said.

[NurseJackie]

179. LOL! GMAFB!

Not everything is about the primaries. This "go-to" deflection is an intellectually lazy defense that is little more than a transparent effort to incorrectly characterize ANY criticism about Bernie as being an attack or "refighting". Y'all are just gonna have to get tougher skin and accept the reality that ALL politicians take heat for their words and actions. Bernie is no exception.

which only pulls scabs off old "primary wounds" and creates disunity.

This has nothing to do with the primaries. This is about what's happening and what's being said in 2018. For quite a while, he's gotten a free-ride and gentle-touch using this type of deflection. But, two years on, he has to answer to his critics just like everyone else.

All I'm saying is that the only "disunity" is that which is created when people try to silence others with outdated accusations/deflections. It really serves no good purpose to perpetuate the myth that any critical word about Bernie is related to the primaries, because it's simply not true.

[whathehell]

331. I'm with ypu..

I don't get it either.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

420. Imagine if Hillary was on the receiving end of such ridiculous criticism every day.

[Gothmog]

500. She was-do you remember all of the crap posted on JPR?

In addition to a ton of pizzagate stories, the stories listed by the Washington Post as fake news stories that helped defeat Clinton were on numerous threads on JPR https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2018/04/03/a-new-study-suggests-fake-news-might-have-won-donald-trump-the-2016-election/?utm_term=.a20c1f8ee6fd

Here are the false stories, along with the percentages of Obama supporters who believed they were at least “probably” true (in parenthesis):

Clinton was in “very poor health due to a serious illness” (12 percent)
Pope Francis endorsed Trump (8 percent)
Clinton approved weapons sales to Islamic jihadists, “including ISIS” (20 percent)

Overall, about one-quarter of 2012 Obama voters believed at least one of these stories (26 percent). And of that group, 45 percent voted for Clinton. Eighty-nine 89 percent believed none of the three fake stories.

I saw these fake news stories on numerous threads on JPR

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

548. I'm talkin bout these days, post election.

[Gothmog]

549. There are threads on JPR on a regular basis attacking Clinton

For example

https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/queen-hillarys-sorry-apology-is-why-shes-no-champion-for-women/
https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/hillary-clinton-calls-for-new-national-commission-to-investigate-russian-cyber/
https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/hillary-clinton-hints-at-2020-bid/
https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/%E2%80%A2-video-%E2%80%A2-jamarl-thomas-clinton-attacks-people-telling-her-to-go-awaysexist/
https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/lets-review-the-past-36-months/
https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/we-have-bill-clinton-to-thank-in-part-for-trumps-propaganda-machine/
https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/it-is-march-2018-and-hillary-is-still-whining/
https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/backwards-hillary-clinton-apparently-still-has-no-clue-why-she-lost/
https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/13118-40-clinton-emails-added-at-state-dept-foia/

Do you want some more?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

550. What does that have to do with current post-election comments here on DU?

[Gothmog]

552. You are complaining about attacks on Sanders being done now

Clinton is being attacked by the idiots who post on JPR on a daily basis following the election. All of these attacks are from the last couple of days. I go to the JPR webpage to see what Russia is pushing today and there are some amazing attacks on Clinton on a daily basis.

You want to complain about attacks on Sanders occurring post primary but you are evidently okay with attacks on Clinton occurring post primary/election so long as Russian trolls, Putin lovers and the other posters who post on JPR are making these attacks.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

553. LOL... is that all you have? Making stuff up I never said. Hahaha, good one!

When did I ever say I'm okay with attacks on Hillary by Russian trolls? Talk about jumping the shark!!

[Gothmog]

557. No one who is sane cares about what is posted on JPR

JPR is a hate site full of idiots, russian trolls, putin lovers and Clinton haters. There are new attacks on Clinton on a regular basis. I visit that site to see what Putin is pushing this week. That site is a great place to the latest Russian fake news

Thinks on DU are far more relaxed. The fact that Bernie and Trump are using the same talking points is amusing but not surprising

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

558. True Gothmog, but that doesn't answer my question...

When did I ever say I'm okay with attacks on Hillary by Russian trolls and Putin lovers on JPR, as you alleged?
Of course, you know I said no such thing, nor would I... an apology would be nice, but, I certainly don't expect one.

[ehrnst]

501. Were you around in 2016?

Apparently not, if you think she wasn't.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

525. I'm talkin bout these days, post election.

[ehrnst]

530. Then why would a private citizen be on the receiving end of daily criticism?

A sitting politician, especially one that is seeking the mic and camera on a weekly basis, I could see.

Your comparison makes even less sense in light of your explanation.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

545. Sorry, didn't realize private citizens are immune from criticism.

[ehrnst]

568. Straw man. Or moving the goalpost. A combination.

You said "Imagine if Hillary was on the receiving end of such ridiculous criticism every day."

No one said she was immune, or should be. However some here believe that any criticism of certain sitting politicians who are on the national stage as often as they can be is "hating."

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

569. Yes IMAGINE, for comparison purposes-not saying it would be JUSTIFIED, so your point is nonsensical.

[ehrnst]

570. If you are comparing apples and oranges

(private citizen and career politician) your comparison is nonsensical.

And moving the goalpost is still moving the goalpost.

Is that clearer?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

571. No, makes no sense... just IMAGINE what the response WOULD be.

Hope that's clearer.

[ehrnst]

573. Response to what? Daily criticism "if HRC was president?"

Or if she was a sitting politician, or a candidate?

You mean like in 2016 before the election, not after the election?

Not clear on which you are talking about now.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

574. It's okay... nm.

[ehrnst]

575. If you don't care

if you move goalposts, it makes it a lot easier to avoid defending your statements.

It's Okay if you can't. You'll just be called out on it.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

585. Okay, you win Ehrnst... yes, I "moved the goalposts," riiiight. Good for you!

[ehrnst]

586. Some people take being corrected very badly.

Clearly.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

587. Thank you for correcting me... hahaha!! (And for the good laugh!) Yes, you're SO right!!

[ehrnst]

588. Yep.

Some people take it much harder than others.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

589. Yup, I may never recover from your self-proclaimed display of brilliance & superiority.

rofl:

[ehrnst]

590. Indeed. (nt)

[Hortensis]

503. She was and still is our elected president of the United States

by most voters.

It took conservative dark-money donors and their vast network of hired agents (especially in news and social media) plotting to use our electoral college against America, hard-core right-wingers, scheming by the religious right, playing of deluded right-wing voters who want to be good and their counterparts on the left, all helped by the best efforts of Russia's GRU and SLE counterintelligence experts.

I don't sleep really well these days, too disturbed by the dangers very foolish people have put us in. But at least I am not wracked with guilt over being fooled by our enemies. My ignorance and biases are not useful rings in my nose.

[Eliot Rosewater]

506. Please GOD tell me you forgot to add the sarcasm thingy?????

[BoneyardDem]

516. Because Hillary WAS on the receiving end of false stories/criticisms daily, many promoted on JPR

.....it was absolutely a mitigating factor in her eventual loss of the Presidency.

I was going to end this statement with a sarcastic "I hope JPR posters are happy for the contribution to the election debaucle"....but then I realized, sarcasm would not be necessary.

[Eliot Rosewater]

526. EVERY person who made it hard for our candidate to win is doing it still

cant say more than that

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

546. I'm talkin bout these days, post election.

[George II]

523. No imagination required.

[NurseJackie]

536. Oh good grief! Seriously? GMAFB! **Where were you in 2016?? SHE WAS!! **

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

547. I'm talkin bout these days, post election.

[KPN]

140. Bingo! It's kind of exhausting.

[whathehell]

363. Yes it is..

and it's why I ordinarily just ignore the Bernie Bashers.

[CountAllVotes]

113. I've been boycotting amazon.com

They are so big so fast! Gee, I wonder why?

Oh they sicken me so!

People buy and resale their stuff on ebay.com and when you attempt to ask amazon.com about it they act as if they are shocked I tell you, shocked!

Batch of greedy pigs IMO.

[PatSeg]

137. Oh yes, that is so annoying

I've ordered things through Ebay to avoid using Amazon. Then when some of them arrive, they are shipped from Amazon. That is rather frustrating.

[CountAllVotes]

158. A "gift" it says on the slip inside

The last thing I ordered was some vitamins on ebay.com.

They cost abt. $12.00 a bottle.

My order arrived with gift slip inside and THREE (3) bottles of the vitamins!

Great deal oh yeah (for me anyway).

I know of people that have had the same thing happen. A friend of mine bought a rug from them for $250.00 from amazon.com and she got TWO of them! WTH?

If they keep this up, they'll break themselves! Such idiocy! I am so not impressed!

[PatSeg]

174. Mine had a gift receipt as well,

but they didn't send me more than I ordered! Nice deals you and your friend got.

[George II]

136. But none of those things are the reasons for why trump and Sanders want the government...

....to "look at Amazon".

[SammyWinstonJack]

35. +1000000.

[whathehell]

36. Thanks..

:Back atcha.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

93. Make that +1000001

[KPN]

172. how about +1000002!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

42. Exactly! What the hell whatthehell?! Just remember, no good deed goes unpunished around here...

Bernie could solve the world hunger crisis and he'd still be criticized for not curing cancer... and, even if he did that too, for not doin it FAST enough. At some point, you'd think it was time for some people to move on from the primaries and UNITE to defeat the Repukelicans in 2018 and 2020. Bernie, once again, is leading the way on most progressive issues that the majority of Americans care about... that might splain why his popularity is growing by the day.

[PatSeg]

56. There are still some

who wish to keep the party divided, at a time when we have serious issues to address. This continuous attacking of Bernie is getting old and tiresome. We have a monster in the White House. That should be our primary concern.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

87. Exactly! Thank you!

[Wwcd]

71. What's Bernie ever done to solve the world hunger crises.

Bernie hardly leads the way on progressive issues.

Stop propping him up to be something he is definitely not.

His history tells a story of definately not all that as to progressive values & policies.
He'd like us to think he is, but its just not so with his history.

For every one you could list there's a very non-progressive example to follow.

Just because Bernie has a mic doesn't mean he actually is what he says.

His past & current actions are not that of a Progressive.
Go back & study what true Progressivism is about.
Its not bernie sanders.

He has once again proved that in this last statement.

[KPN]

364. Been paying attention to Sanders for about 30 years.

I take issue with your comments. Can you provide some evidence? Perhaps I missed something.

[Wwcd]

371. Women rights, Magnitsky, Foreign Policy, Gun Rights.....

"You can't miss what you don't want to see." ~quote


Edit to add: SIERRA BLANCA / Sen Paul Wellstone should have taught bernie all about Progressivism, if he really wanted to know.

Lets add Cuba/Castro, Sandinistas & Maduro to this list.

This is just for starters.

[KPN]

386. What about all of those things? I think you are

defining what being a progressive is based on views you agree with. Progressives don't always and don't have to always agree on everything for identical reasons. That's a given. Really, a fact of life that fits any association whether it's an ideology, a political party, a belief system, a marriage or a friendship. It's also a dynamic any successful association tolerates and works its way through amiably or at least respectfully. Seems to me you are picking at nits on some of if not all of this and I can only imagine why.

Let me put this out there for you. In my view, Sanders is one of if not the most progressive Senators and perhaps federal legislators in office. You seem to think because he views economic justice as intersecting with and foundational to virtually every other equal rights/opportunity issue and therefore focuses his attention on it above everything else, he is disloyal to progressive causes. I couldn't disagree more and find that disingenuous.

[Wwcd]

387. Sanders is not progressive now nor ever in his past.

Just because he's claimed to be doesn't make him one.
Just like claiming he was a Democrat didn't make him anything like a Democrat.

He's been a socialist longer than anything else.

Maduro to Sandinistas, Castro to 2016.
bernie is only & always a Socialist.

[True Blue American]

468. Your post is right on the mark.

[KPN]

556. offs. you must be kidding.

Here's some questions for you: does the Democratic Party espouse socialist values? If so, what are they? are these different than than the values Senator Sanders espoused? if so, how?

[SammyWinstonJack]

76. Bernie bashing, it's getting old.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

90. Very old.

[NurseJackie]

185. Aw.

no good deed goes unpunished around here...

[brer cat]

100. How is it "re-fighting the primaries"

to talk about what he is currently saying? Or is Bernie in some special category of one who isn't accountable for anything since he once ran in a primary?

[NurseJackie]

132. YES! This is the correct analysis! You nailed it!!

It's a lazy and intellectually dishonest "go-to" deflection/accusation. It's a knee-jerk and unthinking response that's trotted out whenever someone says something critical or unflattering about Bernie's words or actions in 2018.

[SidDithers]

231. +1...

Sid

[Eliot Rosewater]

267. The dance that has to be done here when talking about someone who is not a Democrat

it is exhausting.

[progressoid]

377. That's exactly it.

Sugar coat it however you like, but most people here are still bitter about Bernie even daring to run.

[grantcart]

486. +1

[George II]

114. HOW is this "re-fighting the primaries"? Who is talking about the primaries anyway?

[KPN]

133. Thank you for that. Sorry you have to get ridiculed for being open, honest and truthful.

[whathehell]

399. No problem, KPN

as a longtime DUer, I've grown accustomed to the "rough sleddng" in this place..That said, I do very much appreciate your kind words.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

555. One of the reasons I don't comment as often... the personal attacks are out of control here.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

14. But they're just misunderstood according to Sanders

[Demsrule86]

5. Presidents and sitting Senators should not comment on a private company period end of story. Amazon

should sue the shit out of Sen. Sanders and President Trump.

[progressoid]

31. What about Halliburton, Hobby Lobby, Sinclair Broadcasting, Fox News, Phillip Morris, BP, etc.

Our elected officials shouldn't comment on them? Ever?

[SammyWinstonJack]

51. Ha.

[Demsrule86]

69. Absolutely not. You run the risk of hurting a private company. You only help Trump by supporting

this madness...and Sen. Sanders should know better. Also, Sen. Sanders, a word of advice...never never agree with Trump on anything.

[progressoid]

195. You've got to be kidding. How about Academi (aka Blackwater)?

You're OK with Betsy Devos' brother's mercenary company? Congressmen shouldn't have questioned this company?

[Demsrule86]

302. You have Trump going after Bezos. It is personal...and it is wrong. A sitting Senator or president

should not do this...it is wrong period. And some on this thread condemned Trump for it...and only found it just fine after Sen. Sanders parroted the remark. It was wrong when Trump did it and is wong when Sen. Sanders did it.

[melman]

213. Wow

[Demsrule86]

303. You do understand that Amazon has lost billions of dollars and market is tanking right?

[melman]

309. You said no elected official should comment on any company ever

btw, you do understand that Amazon is not a 'private company'...right?

[Demsrule86]

334. They should not run to TV stations and bash companies...legislation or hearings in Congress are

appropriate. What Trump and Sanders did is not appropriate.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

424. That's crazy! Guess we shouldn't regulate businesses, like investment banks, esply if it requires

calling them out by name. Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Chase, etc. will be glad to hear that!

[disillusioned73]

127. Hmmmm... great question.

people show their true colors when answering this one.. corporatists will protect their own at all costs..

[progressoid]

204. Yup.

These are things that Democrats were generally in agreement on in the past. Oh well.

[True Blue American]

45. Perfect post!

Bernie lost, yet every cable station drags him on every chance they get.

BTW, didn’t I read yesterday that gun friendly Vermont just passed new gun laws.

The losers need to shut up and move aside for a new generation.

17 Senators voted for the bill that weakens Bank regulation. I am tired of them, too.

[Demsrule86]

66. Thank you so sick of it. I agree. I would like fresh faces in 2020.

[progressoid]

209. Uhm...you know that Sanders can't change Vermont laws right?

Not sure why you think there is a connection there.

[progressoid]

374. Amazon isn't a private company. It's a public company.

Like AT&T was a public company and then the gov't broke it up.

[Demsrule86]

409. it gave legitimacy to Trump's attempt to tank Amazon's stock.

[Honeycombe8]

426. You nailed it. The point is NOT AMZN. The pt is using bully pulpit for PERSONAL VENGEANCE.

The point is NOT what Trump said. The point is him using the Presidential bully pulpit, which is powerful, to torpedo a company's stock, attack a PERSONAL ENEMY, and for personal vengeance.

Can you imagine Obama doing that? Or even George Bush? That is WRONG, no matter how you look at it.

Many people, including myself, have concerns about Amazon getting so large. If Trump REALLY had that concern, he'd be having closed meetings to discuss what to DO about it. But what is he doing? He's just doing his TWEETING to attack the company because of personal revenge against Bezos. Amazon is not doing anything illegal.

Sanders was WRONG to jump on the Trump bandwagon against the company/person that Trump was attacking.

[Demsrule86]

480. I don't see that Amazon is a problem but if it is deemed so than it can be looked into...however,

I would not trust this administration to run a dog pound. It will have to wait until we regain power. And using the bully pulpit to attack companies or individuals is wrong. Trump needs to pay a big price for this.

[Honeycombe8]

485. Politicians need to stop reacting to the substance of his personal attacks, and focus

and focus on the fact that he's using his position to try to harm other people and businesses that he has a personal war with.

The stock market lost tons of money yesterday because of his statements about Amazon.

I do have a problem with Amazon, now. It has gotten so huge that its size alone allows it to gain an advantage that is unbelievable, and put hundreds of other businesses out of business. It is also buying up competitors. At some point, it becomes similar to an antitrust issue. Amazon wants to be the ONLY retailer, and it is headed that way.

WalMart did the same thing years ago. But Amazon's business plan makes WalMart look like peanuts.

But Trump isn't really concerned about that. He's concerned with the fact that the owner, Bezos, owns the Washington Post and is a "fake news" host that hits him repeatedly. Bezos is his stated enemy. That's what Trump cares about. He wants to make the multi-billionaire NOT a multi-billionaire. He's probably laughing right now at all the money Bezos lost yesterday because of Trump's tweet. Trump doesn't care that tens of thousands of 401k funds ALSO lost a lot of money.

Sanders played into Trump's scheme by carrying the water for Trump, instead of calling him on using his bully pulpit for a personal vendetta.

[Demsrule86]

510. Exactly, and I would bet serious money that someone...either Donnie two scoops, friends or family

are short selling Amazon stock...mueller needs to look into it.

[Honeycombe8]

531. +1. nt

[Demsrule86]

533. Thanks.

[JCanete]

455. that really makes no sense. Of course they need to. If you are suggesting something is wrong with a

system, you need to communicate that by pointing out the actors in that system. Companies are absolutely fair game legally. You would have to name companies. I do not understand what it is you think you're fighting for here.

[Demsrule86]

519. I think since Trump is lying that he could be sued... and here is the thing...I don't care what

company shitler is attempting to ruin...he shouldn't be allowed to do it...no president should. I don't care if it is the worst company ever...and Amazon is not that...also, Amazon employs many people who could lose their jobs if president asshat doesn't shut the hell up. Also, that stock is owned by multiple pensions. No president or sitting senator should attack any company or individual as Amazon has been attacked....wrong is wrong. Time to reign in the imperial president...too much power. Sen. Sanders should retract his statement. He is better than this.

[JCanete]

457. on what grounds? What law? Corporations are public entities and not people secure in their privacy,

nor should they be. If you are going to make a case for legislation, you HAVE to name names. You have to give examples for why legislation is needed. I simply cannot fathom what it is you are advocating here. It is truly beyond me this time.

[Demsrule86]

476. You can affect the stock first of all...whether there is a law or not, it is wrong. A member of the

government has no right to attack an individual or a company. You can hold hearings etc. This is particularly true if you are the president of the US...one has only to look at the stock losses to see why this is so...and of course no doubt Trump and his merry band of thieves have made a bundle with short sales. I don't think a sitting Senator should do it either...it has an effect on stock albeit a lesser one...and then there is the problem that by agreeing with Trump Sen. Sanders normalized this behavior and Trump.

[Demsrule86]

477. Actually there was a ruling that made corporations people...but I will say just one thing. You know

it is wrong for Trump to attack Amazon and cause the loss of billions of dollars ...A member of the government and especially a president has no business doing this...and Sen. Sanders should have said "a sitting president should not attack a private company and I won't do it here either."

[JCanete]

521. I agree with you that Presidents wield a huge ammount of power regarding this, but it is not

a President's job to protect a company, it is the Presidents job to do what is best for America. Same goes for Senators. Now, this is where we agree, Trump is not doing what's best for America. That isn't his interest. Sanders acceptance just as a response to a question that Amazon does need to be looked at does not corroborate all of Trump's plans or rhetoric on the matter, but until you explain to me what recourse...what voice we have(which should be our politicians) if we expect our politicians to just shut up about these things, I am going to have a hard time beliving that you've thought this all the way through. How is this standard different from when Warren grills CEO's of banks in commitee hearings and dresses them and their establishment down, or do you also see that as problematic? When behvior of corporations, particularly huge influential corporations, is egregious it should be called out...it needs to be callled out.

[Demsrule86]

534. Listen I hear you but I have to say that if say Nancy Pelosi had done this or Joe Manchin, you might

feel differently. Everyone makes mistakes. I think Sen. Sanders made one. He should not enable Trump. Apparently Elizabeth Warren did something similar because now it is being reported as Trump attacking Amazon with Sanders and Warren agreeing. I heard it on MSNBC this morning...when they did the news part. All involved with this are at fault and it only helps Trump.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

515. So Senator Clinton should never have said this about Halliburton?

We just heard news that this company that Vice President Cheney used to be in charge of called Halliburton, has decided to move corporate headquarters overseas and I think that raises a lot of serious issues we have to look at. Does this mean they are going to quit paying taxes in America? They are going to take all the advantage of our country but not pay their fair share of taxes? They get a lot of government contracts - is this going to affect the investigations that are going on? Because we have a lot of evidence of misuse of government contracts and how they have cheated the American soldier and cheated the American taxpayer. They have taken the money and not provided the services, so does this mean that we won't be able to pursue these investigations? I think it raises a lot of very big concerns and I think we are going to be looking into that in Washington. I think it is disgraceful that American companies are more than happy to try to get no-bid contracts like Halliburton has and then turn around and say we are not going to stay with our Chief Executive Officer or the President of our company in the U.S. anymore. Well I am proud to be an American and I am proud to be part of the greatest country in the world."

Link

[bettyellen]

560. Halliburton was being investigated for breaking the law. Amazon is being slandered by DT.

Two totally different things. If he said Amazon and othe rcompanies needed to raise their wages, I’d get it... but these attacks are not honest nor will they be productive.
Anyone giving them legitimacy is making a huge mistake.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

577. No, the argument was that no sitting Senator or President should EVER talk about a company.

[bettyellen]

580. A company under investigation by the government? Ha ha unavoidable.

This is deliberate stock manipulation. Not the same.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

581. Bernie is part of stock manipulation?

That can't be what you're saying. Because that's a pretty bold claim, Cotton.

[bettyellen]

582. Trump certainly is- which is why Sanders should have stuck to labor laws and minimum wage- without

Piling on a company. Especially since all of what Trump says about Amazon were lies. If he addressed it- pointing out Trump’s lies was job one. Did he do that?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

583. So you don't have a problem with the factualness of what Sanders said

you just think he shouldn't talk about something because Trump is a moron and talking about the same company for different reasons?

That makes no sense. If Bernie is right, he should talk about it. That just smacks of the multiple times that Dems have tried to "keep the powder dry" just to do nothing. He makes a valid point. The fact that Trump makes an invalid point changes Bernie's point not at all.

[bettyellen]

584. Sanders was talking about Amazon becasue of Trumps lies. Job one is to say they are lies. Then you

Can discuss how messed up it is that we don’t have a higher minimum wage and worker protections. I have a big problem when anyone addresses Trumps blatherings as if they have basis in fact when they do not. The public is confused and it just adds to it. Sanders statements will be used to bolster Trumps arguments now.

[NCTraveler]

6. They can team up to go after Bezos.

Sanders normalizes Trump with his own image. Yelling at walls seems to attract certain segments on both sides.

The Ronny Jackson of the left.

[Eliot Rosewater]

268. Jimmy CARter did it also and I immediately spoke out about it, NOBODY is to normalize that

vile PRICK in the WH

When Schumer did it my hair was on fire

[JCanete]

458. when something is accidentally said that is sane, you cannot walk away from that sane thing and just

show how much more insane you are. You have to acknowledge that a broken clock is sometimes on time. It would be foolish not to.

[IluvPitties]

7. I don't know... but I am kind of tired of Bernie.

[Squinch]

39. Hillary bots? Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay.

[IluvPitties]

43. Hillary Bots? A Democrat you are not.

[True Blue American]

50. Thank you

I voted for Hillary but both she and Bernie need to move on!

I much prefer winning and we can not win by dragging out the losers in the party.

[Squinch]

52. Exactly how has Hillary not moved on?

[WhiteTara]

65. She didn't kill herself.

She's still alive and speaks as a private citizen. But for some, she does need to just die so she won't say another true word.

[True Blue American]

72. That is not what I posted.

It is time to move on to this election and the news magnifies and lies about everything she says.

Both Hillary and Bernie need to stop. This next election is bigger than either of them.

[WhiteTara]

78. TBA

I hope to see that message for all of the Bernie posts, if you are serious. I'll look for you and your message of "shut up now, Bernie"

[True Blue American]

85. I Hope people understand

My wishing both to stop is not a reflection on either candidate.


The longer we dwell on the past, the more time we waste.

Now,we need to go forward.

[Eliot Rosewater]

270. Problem with "both move on" is one is still an elected official, so he wont move on AT ALL

so really what you are saying and you may not mean to is Hillary is to go away.

No man is EVER told to do that.

[True Blue American]

464. No,I meant what I posted

Bernie is not a Democrat,he does not speak for my party!

In the case of Hillary, Republicans,including Trump use her every time she says the least thing. Not her fault and I backed Hillary.

I just know we need the younger, best and brightest of our party! We have a huge group,and I want to win. Rehashing the last election is a waste of time.

[Squinch]

159. Need to stop what? I hope you are not suggesting that one of our greatest

stateswomen needs to not speak?

And as for Bernie, though at times I disagree with him, my problem is not with him. There is room in the public discourse for "idea people," though practicality needs to be given equal time.

My problem is with his acolytes who act like he is a messiah, who expect us to swoon when he does things others do as a matter of course, and who give him credit for things that have little or nothing to do with him.

[EffieBlack]

436. +1

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

428. As for Hillary, Sens. McCaskill and Durbin would certainly agree.

[EffieBlack]

438. Hillary tells the truth about Trump voters and McCaskill criticizes her and folks cheer

But when McCaskill disses black voters in her state, a black legislator criticizes her and people blast HIM.

Not impressed that McCaskill wants Hillary to be quiet ...

[True Blue American]

80. I am tired of losing

We need to win this one. Young,with no old baggage. Has nothing to do with not liking a person

[KrazyinKS]

8. Really, that is a good point

I did not realize he actually had the Post in mind. Thanks, I always learn something on this site.

[thesquanderer]

13. re: " there's only two ways to see this" - no, there's a third.

The third way to see it is that he is simply saying what he believes, that Amazon has gotten too big.

And if you listen to the interview, you'll find this was not the general topic of discussion or what he was brought on to talk about, it was the very last question he was asked, and he gave a very brief answer on that subject and then immediately pivoted to how bad Trump is.

Assuming he didn't have a prepared answer for that question, and assuming that he genuinely believes Amazon has gotten too big (something probably many Dems believe as well, including DU members), what should he have said? He simply gave a truthful answer and got off the topic ASAP.

[JackInGreen]

18. Not good enough for the 'primaries are never over' groups

He spoke, it sounded like similar noises to trump, he should be shamed in their estimation. I do not understand this entirely suicidal tendency in our party.

[progressoid]

23. Hey, stop with the sensible talk.

[PatSeg]

28. A lot of liberals have problems with Amazon and Bezos

though I think Trump's reasons have more to do with the Washington Post and how Bezos affects him personally and politically. This jumping all over Sanders every time he opens his mouth is getting old and tiresome. There are genuine reasons for informed consumers to have problems with Amazon, though they probably don't coincide with Trump's.

[True Blue American]

61. Trump lost

400 Million last year because of Amazon, according to Bloomberg.

Did Bernie lose,too?

I seldom use Amazon because I can beat most of their prices. But Amazon today is the WALMART of the past.

Trump is going down a dangerous path that could lead to charges.

[exboyfil]

64. You are kidding about charges

With nothing being done about even more direct corruption by Trump et al.

[True Blue American]

68. If Mueller does not take Trump out

There are many AG’s waiting in the wings with charges ready to go.

Even Chris Christie warned Trump a storm is coming, you need Lawyers. And that storm is not Daniel’s.

[PatSeg]

84. When Amazon refused to pull

advertising from Breitbart, my daughter and I started shopping around and often find better prices, as well as good service. I think it is healthier for the economy to give our business to other companies. I appreciate the convenience of shopping at Amazon, but they have gotten too big and it is detrimental to small businesses.

As Trump, he thinks he can do or say anything and never be held accountable. He has been doing it his entire life. I think his dumb luck is about to run out.

[HootieMcBoob]

30. Thank you 🙏🏻

These posts are tiresome.

[FarCenter]

20. There are over 90 million Prime members in the US. There are 126 million households

I wonder whether it is a winning political strategy to attack something that well over 50% of households support?

[progressoid]

26. 95% of Americans have shopped at Walmart last year.

Should we never speak ill of Walmart?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

33. An elected official shouldn't, no. Nt

[progressoid]

219. Why not?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

257. Unless the company is engaged in illegal activity,

an elected official should not use their authority to manipulate the public with regards to any company. Whether it be praise or crticism.

[FarCenter]

49. Whining about Walmart hasn't worked. When one opens, consumers abandon main street

So all the objections of main street businessmen haven't had any real effect on Walmart's success.

Walmart will succeed so long as it satisfies its customers better than other businesses.

[progressoid]

58. So we should just let them continue to fuck up America?

[FarCenter]

70. What is the most efficient way of moving goods from source to consumer's homes?

Whatever it is, as technology and business methods change, that is what will be implemented.

[progressoid]

92. Well, OK then. I guess whatever mega-corporations want to do is fine.

As long as it's efficient, it's cool. Fuck the minimum wage employee.

[FarCenter]

101. Did main street merchants pay more than minimum wage?

My recollection of small town middle America where Walmart got its start is that main street merchants were among the wealthier people in town. The made their money by selling a limited selection of shoddy goods at inflated prices. I doubt that they paid their employees more than minimum wages.

And a significant fraction of them would cheat their customers whenever they were able, despite the fact that they were local political and church leaders.

[progressoid]

203. You're not actually defending Walmart's business practices are you?

imeanjesusfuckingchrist. What the hell forum am I on?

[JackInGreen]

205. I've been confused all morning over it

I saw a (since deleted post) saying no elected rep should comment on private business, ever. I had to check my head and take my temperature.

[FarCenter]

210. Are they worse than the previous system of small retailers, distributors, and wholesalers?

Most of these were non-union low paying jobs in small/medium private businesses run by local plutocrats.

And small/medium private businesses are notorious for chiseling on their taxes -- e.g. Donald Trump. They are still the ones that take all cash payments without charging sales taxes. Likely they do not pay income taxes on such payments, so it is a win for the customer and a win for "mom and pop".

[progressoid]

239. Yes. Yes, they are worse. LMGTFY...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Walmart

[oasis]

390. The Walton family clearly leads in the Chickenshit Department. nt

[Eliot Rosewater]

507. Walton family are enemies of the human race

[oasis]

499. America's Least Generous Billionaires. Waltons are cheapskates.

They have zero generous tendencies.

[disillusioned73]

131. Always remember..

this is a "progressive" website..

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

429. THIS... of course we should speak I'll of these predatory companies and those who represent them.

[JackInGreen]

22. My gods, what is trump going to do NEXT that some liberal representative is going to agree with

and we'll have to execute the representative for having the temerity of holding an opinion that Trump has, for the moment, aligned with?

[bahrbearian]

98. Peace with North Korea the Horror.

I hope Bernie sets trump straight and tells him to Nix the talks and commence bombing.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

430. Hahahaha! You hit the nail on the head!!

[Tavarious Jackson]

382. It's not a one off

Attacking the media: "corporate media" Bernie says that at almost all his events.

Trade: "Disastrous NAFTA"

Accusing elections of being "rigged"

Immigration: " hurts workers"

There's more but this is what I could think of right now

[american_ideals]

24. Bad bad bad. President must NOT attack amazon.

Eve if we agree that Amazon needs regulation (I do agree), we must NOT allow the president to use the power of his office to intimidate media like the Washington Post.


The president doesn’t care about Amazon hurting competition. He only cares about the Washington Post.


Josh Marshall is good on this.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/mccabe-amazon-and-defending-the-republic-from-donald-trump

[Demsrule86]

305. I don't agree that Amazon needs regulation.

[Angry Dragon]

27. .............

[Ohiya]

38. What does Col. Sanders say?

[True Blue American]

74. Finger Licken Good?:)

[Wwcd]

40. Thank You. There's no more questioning who Sanders' aligns with.

Sen. Sanders is so focused on his economic message that he cannot see that he is giving Trump ammunition to destroy his enemies.

Trump is angry over the hard-hitting journalism of the Washington Post, so he is attacking Jeff Bezos any way he can, and Sanders is an idiot if he thinks that Trump won't take his quotes and run with it.

It's not like this hasn't happened before, and Sen. Sanders has so much political experience that there's only two ways to see this - either he is so stupid he doesn't care about anything other than his own message, never-mind the war the Democratic party is fighting for our lives here, or he is doing it deliberately, which says things about Sanders that is frankly horrific.
---------------

The Senator no one barely had heard of until Russia Today gave him familiarity.

He continues to present himself as untrustable as we fight for the soul of this society.

There is No More need to whitewash nor defend him.
His past actions & current remarks tell us clearly "Who He Is".


Thanks for posting KitSileya

[left-of-center2012]

41. Yet another attack on Bernie Sanders. Boring!

[Perseus]

44. Amazon has become an octopus

and consumers are not benefiting, their prices have become very high. Last time I tried to buy something from them they were higher by $10.00 than Walmart and other retailers.
I am not sure I can exclusively blame Amazon for the disappearance of bookstores, but they obviously have a hand in it. I am not against making money and Joe Bezos definitely deserves his success, but there has to be a limit on power.

[progree]

77. A great The Nation article on this subject (it goes WAYYYYYY beyond bookstores)

The Empire of Everything - The Nation, 3/12/18
https://www.thenation.com/article/amazon-doesnt-just-want-to-dominate-the-market-it-wants-to-become-the-market/

Amazon Forced Warehouse Employees To Work In Suffocating 110 Degree Heat
and beyond. They kept the dock doors closed because they were worried about theft.

http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-warehouse-2011-9

[appalachiablue]

230. Thanks for the links, we need reminders.

[Historic NY]

81. Of course you do know, lots of small ma & pa bookstores use amazon....

so you can find one or dozens of books from all over, new, used and otherwise at various prices.

Whats next Rock Auto which uses the same methods.

[CountAllVotes]

153. +1

n/t !!

[Cha]

423. BS sells his books on amazon

Link to tweet

[Wwcd]

440. What!! BERNIE SELLS HIS BOOKS ON AMAZON??

There's a word for this ya know..this form of Stock Manipulation is against the rules of Elected Officials.

Maybe we should see the tax papers of both of them. Both refused to show taxes. At least it would reveal "who they are".
Hello, IRS.

Thanks for this bombshell tweet, Cha!

[Cha]

444. It seems weird to me.. it's ok for

him to do it? But, amazon needs looking into?

I know why trump is bashing amazon.. he has a personal vendetta against Jeff Bezos.. he doesn't need any assistance from anyone.

Donald Trump Wants to Get Revenge on Jeff Bezos by Messing With Amazon’s Taxes

https://slate.com/business/2018/03/donald-trump-wants-to-get-revenge-on-jeff-bezos-by-messing-with-amazons-taxes.html

I'm just passing it around.. I found it on this thread from Maeve.

Wwcd

[Wwcd]

447. That's what CNNMoney is saying also Cha. Another good find, thanks

"The president has said he dislikes Amazon because CEO Jeff Bezos also owns The Washington Post.
He has said without proof that he believes Bezos uses the newspaper to lobby for Amazon's business interests.
Amazon does not hold a stake in The Washington Post."

Being discussed over here:
Stop by & add your Slate Post & link!!

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210443896

[Cha]

450. Mahalo for the link,

sweet pea

[True Blue American]

469. Good Lord!

Talk about a hypocrite!

[left-of-center2012]

47. You posted this twice today. Racking up the attacks on Bernie? Boring!

[Wwcd]

89. Thak god it was posted twice. I missed it the 1st time.

Why are people so mad when bernie shows a side of his true self?
Appears he's the one that should be questioned as to this statement.
Not those who voice a wtf over his words.

Its not our fault he agrees with Trump.
Ask him.

[mythology]

124. Alternative question

Why are people so blindly devoted to taking the worst possible view of anything Sanders says? It's disturbing.

The reasons somebody says something matters. Trump hates Amazon because the Washington Post doesn't fawn over him. Sanders is expressing a concern about different things.

[Wwcd]

161. Speaking of "blind devotion"...

You follow bernie over this cliff.

I have yet to hear a legitimate defense of bernie aligining with the thinking of a con man like Trump.

There is none.

Glad to see bernie reveal yet another layer of "who he really is."

How can anyone keep defending his bs.
Considering it was Rusdia Today who gave bernie his foot in the door to Media Marketing.
Yes. No one knew who the hell he was till RT gave him a mic.

[EffieBlack]

170. Because the people hearing Bernie agree with Trump are really going to pay close attention to WHY

they are both going after he same target.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

431. I think the Bernie bashing has "jumped the shark" on this one.

[SweetieD]

53. Amazon is problematic. Trump hates amazon for the wrong reasons but it doesn't mean

it isn't problematic. Sometime in the 70s our anti monopoly laws and cultural attitudes about monopolies went out the window. I have a feeling the American public will have to learn a hard lesson, to get folks to understand why these laws were created in the first place.

[appalachiablue]

240. For sure, people will learn the reason for anti-trust legislation sooner than later.

In the 1980s Reagan stopped enforcing the Sherman Anti Trust Law, although creeping deregulation began in the 1970s (M. Friedman, M. Thatcher) you're correct. Monopolies are just that, monopolies. And they're toxic, dangerous.

[Demsrule86]

306. That is nonsense...what exactly is the problem with Amazon? I don't see one.

This is just because Sen. Sanders said it.

[democratisphere]

54. Bernie lives in Bernie's world and I don't think he is paying attention

to the consequences of his words and positions. Bernie makes promises that can't be delivered by anyone.

[mcar]

57. Unhelpful, to say the least

[progree]

73. Amazon Forced Warehouse Employees To Work In Suffocating 110 Degree Heat

and beyond. They kept the dock doors closed because they were worried about theft.

http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-warehouse-2011-9

The Empire of Everything - The Nation, 3/12/18
https://www.thenation.com/article/amazon-doesnt-just-want-to-dominate-the-market-it-wants-to-become-the-market/


Thank you Bernie. You are right.

[CountAllVotes]

134. +1,000 !!

n/t

[David__77]

288. Not interesting to some people. Workers might not count to some people.

...

[progree]

301. Right. There are lots of closet libertarians who don't care about working people

and only care about how their Amazon and Exxon Mobil and pharmaceutical stocks are doing. As for anti-trust -- that's so late 19th century - early 20th century "populist" crap. Drug prices too high? But but there are 8 major (or however many) pharmaceutical companies, therefore lots of competition (right? of course) so raising the price 20 fold is, well, the wonder and glory of the free market, the Invisible Hand, blah blah, and besides they wouldn't do it except they didn't have any other choice, I'm sure. It's really stressful being a corporate mogul, you should walk a mile in their shoes before you criticize and blah blah blah blah

[joshcryer]

417. Workers are going away, though.

It is time we start to accept this. The reason people do these jobs (Wal-Mart has similar demands on their delivery side) is because jobs are increasingly harder to find. The idea that we must figure out ways to limit the efficient systems that these corporations are setting up, in order to worship at the feet of wage work, is totally wrong.

We should be embracing it and looking at ways to fill the gap when 80-90% of the population isn't doing wage work.

Donald Trump is wrong about Amazon, because if it wasn't Amazon, it'd be another company. What happens when Super Cyber Megacorp starts manufacturing stuff here in the USA again, with a total robot labor force? We're going to look at Amazon's practices and say "well, at least they hired people."

[David__77]

448. Workers arent going away. The skill level of workers can increase.

Skilled labor is still labor. I consider software programmers as well as miners to be workers. I don’t consider that we need to fight technology. I do think that the rights of labor are important.

[joshcryer]

456. I don't know what laws we can pass to fix this though.

Amazon is obviously one of the biggest culprits with their automated store with no cashieers. One would argue that such stores need laborers to run the machines, but as I posted when it came up before, it's likely low skill laborers installing the sensors, and it's a one and done kind of thing. A single human then can calibrate the system for a whole store, and that person would be responsible for not one store, but dozens of them. This is a labor sink that will almost certainly everyone from low skill to high skill.

One of these days in the not too distant future a company is going to be able to start churning out cheap products in a couple of centralized factories, think Amazon's warehouses, but with robots making stuff. Raw resources in, products out. They'll be run by a few dozen people. Tesla Motors is spending 2x the cost of automation to pioneer the fully automated factory. Automating final assembly of a car is the holy grail. Analysts look at Tesla and say it's not worth it, since final assembly per car is about 10 hours of labor and even at $50 an hour, halving it only saves $250, add in the $100 per hour for the laborer to run those machines you're only saving $150. It doesn't make sense. Yet Musk is still trying.

What rights of laborers are there if there are no laborers? We already see how utterly difficult it was for Taxi unions to prevent ride sharing companies from taking over, with little success.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

435. But, but, but... Bernie agrees with Rethugs that it's wrong!!!

Bernie must be silenced!!!

[James48]

75. What is sad

Is how many here seem to think Sanders said that to help Sanders.

Sanders is the real deal. He says things because they are true. Factual. Real.

I think he is a great political leader. And very astute observer as well.

[TheBlackAdder]

83. Fuck Trump & Fuck Amazon too! They both manipulated their environments to become successful.

[kentuck]

88. Bernie is going after those young voters, like those being led by David Hogg and his friends...

A very smart political move because they are not "automatic" Democrats, unfortunately.

These young people do not like the politics of Republicans but they aren't crazy about Democrats either.

[KPN]

200. And therein is the problem. How are we, the Democratic Party, going to adapt?

And are we going to adapt? Sometimes the prospects don't look so good around here.

[tiredtoo]

96. Teddy Roosevelt was also a great trust buster

methinks this is a good idea.

[Maven]

97. LOLOL. Here's Bernie speaking at Amazon HQ. He sells his books on Amazon too!

Link to tweet

I guess we'd know how many books if he ever released his taxes.

[MrsCoffee]

103. Figures.

I don’t get how so many fall for his tired routine.

[katmondoo]

106. The young people like Amazon

I like Amazon

[NurseJackie]

116. Wow! I wonder why he flipped his opinion. What changed between then and now?

Gus Ironic Conquistador™ @Gus_802

Bernie hates Amazon so much he's selling his books through Amazon and held this big confab at an Amazon HQ in Seattle.
3:11 AM - Apr 2, 2018

61 24 people are talking about this

Wow! I wonder why he flipped his opinion. What changed between then and now?

Did Amazon change in any way? Did Amazon suddenly start doing something different, something new, something THIS year, that they weren't doing all along?

It's certainly a mystery to me.

[Kentonio]

169. When did he say he hated Amazon?

You can have problems with the excessive power a corporation holds without being opposed to everything they do.

[uponit7771]

224. damn, every time I try to give him the benefit of the doubt

[workinclasszero]

255. Wow what a great look Bernie

[Gothmog]

318. Who is surprised by this?

[lunamagica]

326. BOOM!

[sheshe2]

332. Oh my!

[ecstatic]

400. SMH. Similar hypocrisy on trump's end: His campaign spent over 150k

on Amazon.

A report by CBS News digging into Federal Election Commission records found that in 2015 and 2016 the campaign spent $158,498.41 in 379 transactions classified as office supply purchases. The committee continued after the election to spend money on the website, purchasing more than $2000 in 2017.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/01/politics/trump-campaign-amazon/index.html

I can't even begin to imagine how much USPS SHIPPING was involved in $150k + in purchases.

[joshcryer]

415. I hate bashing people for where they give talks.

But this is one situation where it's ironic for sure.

[BeyondGeography]

99. Are we the laissez-faire party now?

That would be pretty suicidal. When five companies dominate the economic platform that will run the 21st century, you should be scrutinizing all of them. As for Amazon, by 2020, half of all searches will be voice-activated. Right now, Alexa recommends two products and very often one of them is an Amazon private label product. All through our history, government has had to redraw the lines when corporate power restrained trade and hurt consumers. And here we are again. But, BERNIE!

It’s embarrassing, folks.

[progree]

119. Greed is good. Greed is right. Greed works!

[FarCenter]

228. You can't nationalize millions of small businesses, but you can nationalize a few large ones.

[Demsrule86]

308. No you can't nationalize private businesses of any sort...that is called theft.

[FarCenter]

313. Actually, you can -- See, eg Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nationalizations_by_country#United_States

But actually, you don't have to assume ownership -- you just regulate their activities and financial results.

[Demsrule86]

328. I absolutely am against that and the banking issues in 2008 were different...they agreed to it in

order to get federal money.

The federal takeover of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac was the placing into conservatorship of the government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs) Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae) and Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac) by the U.S. Treasury in September 2008. It was one of the financial events among many in the ongoing subprime mortgage crisis.

On September 6, 2008, the director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA), James B. Lockhart III, announced his decision to place the two GSEs into a conservatorship run by the FHFA.[1][2][3]

"At the same press conference, United States Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, stated that placing the two GSEs into conservatorship was a decision he fully supported, and that he advised "that conservatorship was the only form in which I would commit taxpayer money to the GSEs." He further said that "I attribute the need for today's action primarily to the inherent conflict and flawed business model embedded in the GSE structure, and to the ongoing housing correction."[1]"

[bluedye33139]

108. They agree about immigrant labor as well

[George II]

111. He was all over television yesterday morning. The reason Congresspeople and Senators...

....get blocks of time off is to enable them to go back to their districts and find out what their constituents think about issues.

Is he ever in Vermont?

[NurseJackie]

117. Now THAT'S a very good question!

Is he ever in Vermont?

Now THAT'S a very good question! I'll bet that many people are wondering the same thing.

Priorities.

Watch carefully and all will be revealed.

[aidbo]

246. He was last there a few days ago for events on the 24th and 27th.

He’s going back in a couple weeks for a few town halls.

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/events/past

But do you really care?

[George II]

275. What I care about is him cozying up to trump, and him railing about Amazon even while....

....he's doing business with them. There are lots of other online booksellers other than Amazon.

[lunamagica]

336. I've been wondering about that, George. When does this guy work? It seems he is all over the place

getting paid to campaign, meanwhile, what has he done in the Senate this year?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

115. Amazon is hardly the worst of the lot IMHO

when it comes to corporations whom have outsized influence and receive special perks from the government.

[panader0]

118. Well Kit, what do you think about Amazon?

Do you think it's too big? Do you think it's hurting local and small retail?
What are your personal views on the matter?

[KitSileya]

139. I think it is best not to give Trump ammunition to shoot those standing up to him

Of course Amazon is too big, and we need proper labor laws that will make it illegal for Bezos to treat his workers as he does, but we also need politicians who are serious about fighting Trump and the GOP to stop helping them when they attack their enemies. Only when we get a majority can we actually do anything about working conditions, helping small retailers etc. Some don't seem to understand that unless and until we get a majority in Congress, we cannot do a darn thing unless it's to try to stop legislation, or trick Trump to agree with us (as Pelosi, Feinstein, Schumer et al have been fantastic at doing, running rings around Trump and putting the GOP in awkward positions). If we say Trump is right, we help normalize a President who attacks the press, who attacks competing businesses, who is off the rails and on his way to fascism. That means we have to be fucking careful about what we say, so he doesn't even seem to get any support - never mind giving him actual support. Sanders have several times now made statements about how he can work with Trump, how Trump is right on this, that or the other, and that is not helpful, to say the least. We're fighting for our lives here, and Amazon is the least of our worries right now.

That is my view.

[panader0]

141. "Of course Amazon is too big"

So you agree with Sanders on this then?

[Demsrule86]

310. No I don't. There is no law nor should there be about how big a private company should be...all this

sudden angst about Amazon here is because of what Sen. Sanders said and show clearly why he should not have said it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

121. I guess no one remembers when DU thought Amazon was problematic

Because it was shutting down mom and pop businesses.

Just like DU was in favor of many tariffs once upon a time.

[FarCenter]

155. The "mom and pop" who owned small businesses were the local country club elite.

And owned the cottage on the lake with the big boat.

[Demsrule86]

315. Not before Sanders said it...sure I would like better working conditions for employees but

that is a national problem, and Amazon is not the worst offender. Congress needs to address that. Also I favor tariffs as part of a manufacturing economic package but not the way it is done now...my hubs makes parts at his current company...one small part will now cost $30.00 more to make because of the tariff. Anyone who lives in what is left of steel country will tell you the steel infrastructure is mostly gone and most of the jobs pay shit money. It won't help that much as it takes big capital to open a steel plant. However,the current tariffs hurt higher wage manufacturers that use steel to make their products including but not limited to autos.

This makes manufacturing less competitive in this country...this may very well shut down Lordstown GM as it adds $1200.00 to the cost of the cruze. Congress of which Sen. Sanders is a member has the right and duty to enact laws to improve working conditions or to address other concerns...but tweeting or running breathlessly to cable networks and attacking a private company is wrong.

[JI7]

451. Amazon didn't shut down mom and pop businesses, Amazon shut down big stores like Borders

and borders nad similar businesses shut down the mom and pop long before amazon.

[Dreamer Tatum]

488. Heh. Suuuuuuuure. nt

[disillusioned73]

122. Mountian...

meet mr. mohill.. LOL

Anyone that has paid any attention to what Senator Sanders has pretty much said his whole career knows this is consistent with with his message & positions..

Anyone that doesn't agree that Amazon/ Walmart & any other large corp isn't a problem & affecting American politics & policies is part of the problem...

[SidDithers]

241. What's a "mohill"?...nt

Sid

[Squinch]

314. It's a mound of mohair yarn. Duh.

[SidDithers]

337. Hehe...

Sid

[Me.]

126. Of Course We Need To Look At It

Bezos is probably stiffing people over money he owes and paying prostitutes with all the money he's making, further, do we know if he has released his tax records, maybe he made bad land deals that killed small universities and there's so much more so it's right and fitting that, other rich men, those who are so pure, should look into what he's doing.

[zentrum]

135. Amazon makes its worker's lives...

……pure misery. And it's bringing this corporate factory culture to Whole Foods.

All Democratic leaders should be speaking up about this because it's a culture that spreading. And God knows the post office is under assault from the right to be privatized.

Think I'll call Warren about Amazon today. She always carries the torch for economic fairness for the 99.

[Demsrule86]

316. And it is one of many...we need national worker's rights legislation and in the meantime targetting

Amazon because Trump and Sen. Sanders think it is a good idea is just plain wrong

[lark]

146. Yeah, this seems to be a bigger and bigger issue.

Standing side by side with drumpf is pure stupidity, especially since drumpf just wants to hurt the WAPo and this is the mechanism he's chosen. He will do his best to end all left slanting or even MOR media because he wants only his words and messages shared, not the truth - ever. So why is Bernie siding with him in this? It really really makes me wonder. He knows drumpf is just trying to kill off all liberal media, judiciary, benefits, etc. and cares absolutely zero for workers, so why does he agree with orange assface? I really do not trust Sanders motives anymore.

[Ferrets are Cool]

148. To equate what Sanders said with what the PGIC said is problematic at best...

cheap shot is closer to home.

[awesomerwb1]

150. I'm not a Bernie hater(nor a Hillary lover)

but this guy needs to get behind Dem candidates and stop giving ammunition to Dump.

Sometimes he sounds like he's already campaigning for Bernie 2020. This is extremely counterproductive.

[Demsrule86]

538. It is being reported as Sanders agreeing with Trump...that is so wrong

on so many levels. The president of the US is engaging in abuse of power and no progressive should defend him.

[Progressive dog]

152. Yes, agreeing with Trump has become a habit

for Bernie. That agreeing started a long time ago and I expect it to continue.
Trump is a populist (a conman in politician's clothing), who doesn't give a shit about truth, justice, or the rule of law. Anyone who encourages that psychopath should be ashamed.

[dalton99a]

162. Agreeing with Trump AND attacking Democrats

It's the same old crap

[Gothmog]

319. Yep

[KPN]

164. Let's see. Sanders gets asked a question (without any specific reference to Trump or his position).

He answers the question in a rational manner that pretty much fits the view of many Democrats, and then ... BOOM! He is castigated, ridiculed, lambasted and -- mother of mercy -- excoriated for giving the Trumpster ammunition instead of just refusing to answer the question and shutting up about structural issues and problems with America's economy. That's the ticket. Don't say anything. Keep your mouth shut. That'll fix things!

Sorry, but if you want to win in 2020, better get over the butt-hurt folks.

[Snotcicles]

273. This place is a far cry from whence it came. nt

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

433. Not.Gonna.Happen. (sadly)

[disillusioned73]

492. Imagine what will happen..

if Bernie is the 2020 candidate.. this place may not survive, although I could be wrong since this lil hit piece only got 26 recs (or was it 36).. maybe the vast majority is just letting the few get it out of their system..

[CentralMass]

165. Is he wrong ? Hasn't Amazon become a monopoly and a problem ?

Last edited Mon Apr 2, 2018, 02:01 PM - Edit history (1)

https://www.thenation.com/article/amazon-doesnt-just-want-to-dominate-the-market-it-wants-to-become-the-market/

BUSINESSANTITRUSTFEATUREMARCH 12, 2018, ISSUE
Amazon Doesn’t Just Want to Dominate the Market—It Wants to Become the Market
The company is a radically new kind of monopoly with ambitions that dwarf those of earlier empires.
By Stacy Mitchell FEBRUARY 15, 2018"

The article dusscusses how Bezos, a former Hedge fund Manager, has and is planning to to take over everything that Amazon touches.

Almost $1 of every 2 spent online are spent at Amazon.
The article discusses how Amazon goes after competitors and when they throw in the towel and become a third party seller on Amzon, how Amazon screws them even then.

It discusses Bezos strategy of undercutting book prices. Amazon sold books at a loss for three years, succeeding in driving many bookstores out of business. 50% of all books printed and digital are now bought on Amazon.

"To think of Amazon as a retailer, though, is to profoundly misjudge the scope of what its founder and chief executive, Jeff Bezos, has set out to do. It’s not simply that Amazon does so much more than sell stuff—that it also produces hit television shows and movies; publishes books; designs digital devices; underwrites loans; delivers restaurant orders; sells a growing share of the Web’s advertising; manages the data of US intelligence agencies; operates the world’s largest streaming video-game platform; manufactures a growing array of products, from blouses to batteries; and is even venturing into health care.

Instead, it’s that Bezos has designed his company for a far more radical goal than merely dominating markets; he’s built Amazon to replace them. His vision is for Amazon to become the underlying infrastructure that commerce runs on. Already, Amazon’s website is the dominant platform for online retail sales, attracting half of all online US shopping traffic and hosting thousands of third-party sellers. Its Amazon Web Services division provides 34 percent of the world’s cloud-computing capacity, handling the data of a long list of entities, from Netflix to Nordstrom, Comcast to Condé Nast to the CIA. Now, in a challenge to UPS and FedEx, Amazon is building out a vast shipping and delivery operation with the aim of handling both its own packages and those of other companies."
"
By controlling these essential pieces of infrastructure, Amazon can privilege its own products and services as they move through these pipelines, siphoning off the most lucrative currents of consumer demand for itself. And it can set the terms by which other companies have access to these pipelines, while also levying, through the fees it charges, a tax on their trade. In other words, it’s moving us away from a democratic political economy, in which commerce takes place in open markets governed by public rules, and toward a future in which the exchange of goods occurs in a private arena governed by Amazon. It’s a setup that inevitably transfers wealth to the few—and with it, the power over such crucial questions as which books and ideas get published and promoted, who may ply a trade and on what terms, and whether given communities will succeed or fail."

There is much more in the article.

[Demsrule86]

320. No Amazon is not a monopoly...and both Trump and Sen. Sanders never mention the monopoly

that internet providers enjoy. I can buy things from other places than Amazon...but I have only one internet provider in my area. They can charge whatever ever they want...that is a monopoly.Amazon is successful but that does not make them a monopoly.

[CentralMass]

323. They article that I posted makes strong arguments that it is a monopoly.

For people who dislike Walmart, Amazon in an online version on steroids.

[Demsrule86]

325. I don't agree with you or the article...you want to end a monopoly end internet and cable monopolies

[Afromania]

166. Bernie needs to go and sit his ass down someplace. His ovetures to the trump voting public

is blatant now. He'll probably follow this up with an attack on another Democratic party member this afternoon. Somebody needs to tell him that he can do good for this country without being president or injecting himself into every single thing going on in this country. He's coming off as desperate and needy for attention and frankly it makes him seem like a complete asshole.

[Kentonio]

176. Hell sit his ass down in the Oval Office

If we have anything to do with it.

[EffieBlack]

186. Okay

[LexVegas]

188. It's fucking comical, isn't it?

[Kentonio]

194. I seem to remember you all laughing last time too

When he started out with single digit name recognition and no funding or party backing. You stopped laughing pretty quickly back then. We’ll see how much laughing you do when he enters the race as a household name and one of the frontrunners.

[R B Garr]

243. At least this finally acknowledges that he used the

Democratic Party for his own deceptive ends, which were endless unanswered criticisms. Had he run as an Independent, none of what you boast would have happened. He needed the so-called Establishment he pretends to be against. Finally the truth about what we all saw is acknowledged.

Now we are seeing some turnabout and accountability expected of him, and just look at the meltdowns. The double standards are truly epic.

[EffieBlack]

266. Better be careful or you're gonna get voted off the island

You're blowing the "Bernie's not in this for his own ambitions" subterfuge. Hasn't anyone clued you in that mum's the word and you're not supposed to admit what's really up.

Kind of like the little kid who thinks if he closes his eyes, no one can see him, he must think we haven't peeped what's going on, but everyone can see it as clear as day.

[lunamagica]

346. Yeah, he had no name recognition despite being in congress for decades...how that was seen as

a positive still baffles me. But being "new", people projected what they wanted on him. His biggest strength was his anonymity.

But now people know him. you know what they say about familiarity...a lot of truth has come to light and it isn't pretty.

Questions about his honesty, transparency. Why did he lie about Jane looking for the taxes? Why he keeps on refusing to show his full tax returns? What is he hiding?

I see almost daily people who voted for him in the primaries and now regret it. I've yet to see someone who didn't like or trust him and changed their mind and are now behind him.

2020 will bring a new generation of voters, led by the Parkland students. These young people are quite different from those who went to the rallies just to end up not voting. These kids have different priorities. For them it is not about free college. It is about safety and gun control. They would never choose someone like Sanders to represent them. And this time, the kids are politically active and motivated to vote.

It's not looking good for him.

[Kentonio]

365. You sit and enjoy your little DU bubble of anti-Bernie hate

It reflects nothing of what is happening in the real world. Better brace yourself for 2020, it’s not going to turn out how you would like.

[lunamagica]

367. Humm...my post wasn't about DU. Funny you didn't address any of my points

Like why did he lie about Jane looking for the tax returns, his refusal to release his full tax returns, and the Parkland students top priority being gun control. None of those questions have anything to do with DU.

Obviously you have no answers, so you completely ignore what I wrote.

[Kentonio]

419. Of course I do.

I have absolutely no interest in engaging with your smears of progressive leaders, which also is contrary to the posting rules here. I’ll continue to support the Senator, and you can continue to do whatever you please. It really makes not a single jot of difference to me.

[lunamagica]

446. You have no answers. Asking about why he refuses to show his tax returns is not

against the rules.

But how can anyone defend that? The only candidates who refused to show their full tax returns were trump and Sanders...

And there's no justification for that. That's why you won't answer.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

439. I remember that too... now THAT was a laugh!

[LexVegas]

187. ...

[Maven]

216. ...

[SidDithers]

245. ...

Sid

[NurseJackie]

251. ...

[David__77]

278. Sanders is so popular on this site!

...

[Kentonio]

366. Luckily the group think of DU means not a single thing in the wider world.

He’s the most popular politician in America for a reason.

[Demsrule86]

322. That will never happen. He has the ability to spoil 2020 for the Democrats as Nader did,

but he will never be elected president. Naturally if he was the nominee, I would vote for him. But his support has weakened considerably. I doubt he will win a primary. I want fresh faces for 20. And he will be nearly 80. That is too old in my opinion.

[True Blue American]

481. Bernie had his chance

No one would even listen to him if the media did not keep dragging him out.

Bernie would be wise to go keep Jane out of the mess she made.

The first time I noticed Jane was when she rounded up Reporters and marched to Arpaio's prison.

I thought,how dumb,doesn’t she know he will confront her? He did. What a fiasco.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

524. HAHA!! Yesss... Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!

[KPN]

196. Wishful thinking. Many Democrats and Independents admire and agree with Senator Sanders

on many of the issues he discusses. Division within the party around Senator Sanders doesn't bode well for the party; from my perspective, most of it is nonsensical and based in petty grievances as opposed to actual policy differences. We better figure this out soon or it will be too late. Clamoring for him to shut up isn't the solution.

[Afromania]

201. I like his policy positions fine but he creates his own divisions when he attacks the people he's

supposed to be on the side of. He creates divisions with them and the people who agree with those folks and then creates divisions within the voters when we squabble with each other about it. We don't need that and he needs to cut it out.

[KPN]

207. I disagree that he does that. Been a registered Democrat, loyal Democratic voter since 1972.

My view is Senator Sanders resonates with people who are frustrated with and distrustful of the two party system. Believe it or not, some of those are registered Democrats who are active in the party and have always tried to move the party BACK TO what is now often viewed as radical left on economic issues. Remember, 90 million eligible voters did not vote in 2016 and I don't buy the apathy thing; many of those 90 million are disenchanted with the system.

At any rate, if we want to win in 2020, we better be able to gain the support of potential voters with whom Sanders' messages resonate. That's on us, not him. Sanders has always caucused with Dems and has been trying to move the party back to the left for years.

[Afromania]

225. That's what he's doing and while he does vote with us he's not doing any favors with

how he's going about this. If we want to win in 2020 people need to stop being stupid and waiting for some magical message about whats going on and go ahead and grow up. If we keep treating them like babies they are going to vote like babies.

Part of the apathy in this country comes not just from how the two parties do things but people who worry more about what's good for them personally than everybody else. When Bernie wouldn't concede in 2016 he made it about him rather than the good of the country. When he attacks his "team" he's not doing anything to move the party left. He's doing it to court those mythical Obama/trump voters that are too stupid to understand who is sticking it to them and why. Bernie could dourt them until the cows came home if he told them that they were being lied to and why.

He probably won't because they don't want to hear that they made a garbage vote for garbage reasons and he wants their vote now. If he won they would do to him what they did to Obama. Not to the degree they refused to hear Obama(we all know why), but when they don't get instant gratification from his policies they'll stick their heads right back in the sand and vote GOP.

We can't trust these people to not get us all killed for their addiction to ignorance gullibility. Bernie pandering to them is only going to disenfranchise some solid always Democratic voters. If he doesn't like the Democratic Party he should run as an Independent and work on the appropriate framework associated with it rather than pipping around for the Democratic nomination while taking a crap on it at every turn. He's being disingenuous to keep at it like this and then want the Democratic nomination.

[KPN]

277. Ummm ... I'm not talking about Trump voters.

As I said, we see things differently.

[pnwmom]

357. His spouting off in support of DT's PR stunt isn't the solution. Bernie should have explained

what a hypocrite DT is being. DT doesn't care about working people or what they need. DT is against Amazon because Bezos owns it and Bezos owns the WA Post.

[melman]

368. 'spouting off in support of DT's PR stunt'

[pnwmom]

370. He could have used his platform to point out Trump's hypocrisy.

Instead, he used words that gave credence to Trump. That wasn't helpful.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

441. Sick of people telling Bernie to shut up... Bernie has every right to espouse his views...

especially when they are in complete harmony with progressive principles.

[KPN]

453. Yup.

[melman]

460. Notice how all the people doing that

are the same ones who insist no one ever told a man to shut up.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

471. Of course... hypocrisy knows no bounds when it comes to Bernie bashing.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

432. You're suggesting Bernie's a "complete asshole"? Just wow!! That'll unite the party!!

[MrsCoffee]

474. Unity? Bernie is a big reason we even need to be worried about unity.

What has he actually done to try to repair what he broke? That Unity Tour was a pathetic joke and Our Revolution is a nightmare. He is careless with his words and reportedly vindictive. Not a great combination for unity.

[Afromania]

487. We can fight and squabble with each other as much as we want. Once whoever it is wins the democratic

primary we vote for that person, case closed. If it's Bernie I'm voting Bernie, if it's somebody else I vote for somebody else. I'm not going to 2nd guess, vote 3rd party or gnash my teeth about not liking the candidate and sit it out. When push comes to shove I'm voting Democratic unless we put up some piece of shit like trump. We don't have to be in lock step with how we feel to vote for people who aren't actively trying to dismantle the country.

We have reached a point that is so far past sane with the republican party and their representatives that no words should be needed to reverse course. The iceberg is sitting right there in the noonday sun, plain as day. Nobody, and I mean nobody, should need cajoling to get out there and vote when disaster staring us in the face.

[EffieBlack]

180. "NOT HELPFUL, Bernie . . ."

Funny to see folks defending Bernie's bone-headed leap into being an apologist for Trump, doing all sorts of explaining about what he meant and why he said and how it's different, etc. just a week or so after people jumped all over Hillary for speaking the truth about certain Trump voters - telling her that her comments were "NOT HELPFUL," and not giving two blips about what SHE meant or that she was being completely honest.

[Me.]

250. But...But

if BS does it, it becomes pure

[mcar]

252. Odd how that works, isn't it?

[Jamaal510]

271. +1

[JCanete]

561. because that isn't being an apologist for trump. this is stupid. So stupid. If Trump came out and

said the sky was blue one day, when, despite the odds of anything him ever saying actually being the truth, lo and behold you look up and see that it is in-fact blue, what do you say then..."nope, delusional asshole in chief is wrong again...the sky is obviously pink today."

No. And if you look at a broken clock at the moment that the hour is correct, again, you don't simply say taht time is wrong because that clock is broken.

If on the other hand, you really truly think there are no issues with Amazon, and that we have no business regulating our industries like amazon, well this should be interesting.

That doesn't mean that Trump's reasons are sincere, or that his solutions are legitimate or justified, just because he glanced upon something that Sanders also finds is wrong.

Both the people who jumped on hillary for that and you and those dumping on Sanders for this can be wrong simultaneously.

[SomethingNew]

197. Breaking News:

Bernie Sanders has been spotted breathing and drinking water. Yesterday, Trump was seen engaging in the same acts.

BERNIE SANDERS MUST BE STOPPED! HOW DARE HE ALIGN HIMSELF WITH TRUMP!!!!

[KPN]

199. Ah, the truth plainly spoken.

[George II]

208. Why didn't Sanders say something about Amazon BEFORE trump did? And, if...

Last edited Mon Apr 2, 2018, 01:05 PM - Edit history (1)

...he's so concerned about big bad Amazon:

1. Why did his campaign spend more than $640,000 on products/services from Amazon?
2. Why are all three of his books being sold on Amazon?

In fact, if you search for "Bernie Sanders" on Amazon you'll see that there's a thing called "Amazon's Bernie Sanders Page"!

[SomethingNew]

218. These aren't difficult to answer if you set aside your bias for a minute or two.

Maybe he didn't say something sooner because it isn't a priority for him and he was never asked about it. The subject was brought up and he briefly gave his opinion. Thats typically how these things work . . . .

As for the other "questions," there is a big difference between thinking there may be a problem with something and thinking the entire thing needs to go away. Using a company's services (although I doubt he has any say over the books being sold there anyway) doesn't mean you endorse it 100%.

Are you equally outraged that he has a checking account and retirement investments even though he thinks banks need to be reigned in? If you think there is a problem with big banks, have you given up all banking services? Do you drive a car or use electricity while simultaneously worrying about Big Oil?

[George II]

234. If I have a problem with an organization or seller, I stop doing business with them. It's simple.

I don't say one thing and do something completely the opposite.

[SomethingNew]

237. How about the specific examples in my post?

Do you either:
A. Have no problem with banks and oil companies; or
B. Use no banking services or electricity?

Given your hardline stance, I see no possible third options for you. Depending on your answer I will have to either give you great credit for your deeply held convictions or great derision for failing to acknowledge obvious problems that are fundamental to the Democratic platform.

[George II]

238. I don't rail against banks or oil companies or our electric company, and....

....I don't go on national television to single out a company at the same time I'm doing business with them.

Plus, there's a huge difference between an average citizen and a United States Senator.

[SomethingNew]

244. Wait, so did you not mean your previous post?

The one where you said, "If I have a problem with an organization or seller, I stop doing business with them. It's simple."?

It seems to me that the real issue here a dislike of Sanders and that you don't particularly care what principle you use so long as it brings you round to condemnation.

[George II]

372. You're projecting way too much on this. So what were YOU referring to about my quote?

Last edited Mon Apr 2, 2018, 04:25 PM - Edit history (1)

About which organization did I not mean what I said?

Note, I said IF, and I also said organization or seller, not entire industry.

[SomethingNew]

383. You've specified your way into irrelevancy and an unprincipled no man's land.

[George II]

385. Insult much? So you draw a false conclusion about what I said, get outed for it, so....

....instead of addressing that, you go on the attack.

Good to know.

[SomethingNew]

461. This is nearly the most delusional interpretation of a conversation I've ever seen.

And no, that is not an insult or an attack. Just look back at everything that has been said and try to read it as an outsider.

[George II]

473. You may be right, but certainly not on my part. So, just who are you?

[JustAnotherGen]

229. Hmmmm . . .

You would think he would take his books off their portal before speaking - eh?

Trump took a massive hit ($600 million) and a large part of that is upscale retail closing their doors in Manhattan.

This has nothing to do with the Postal Service, WaPo, Globalism, import/export.

And note - Amazon has bid in with the Pentagon. Trump needs to shut the fuck up and anything he says should be OPPOSITE day for every single person on the left, to include Senator Sanders.

No safe harbor for the 45/140 orange faced shitgibbon. Folks are winning elections by being the OPPOSITE of Trump. Jones, Lamb, Murphy - it's opposite year and it works.

[KPN]

274. He wasn't asked. But go ahead and

continue the beating of Senator Sanders if you absolutely must.

[George II]

276. So you're telling us that he didn't like Amazon before trump brought it up?

If he's so against Amazon why did his campaign spend more than $640,000 on Amazon and why is he selling his three books on Amazon?

Seems like of hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

[KPN]

281. No, I wouldn't say. On your first question:

same response as last time -- maybe because he wasn't asked.

I buy stuff from amazon even though I don't like it. Same with WalMart. Sometimes they are my only accessible source. And to be honest, I do feel hypocritical when I do -- but I also have to meet my needs. Perhaps Senator Sanders is also simply meeting a need.

Frankly, this is making a big fucking mountain out of an ant hill. Obviously some butt hurt going on.

[George II]

283. Did you criticize Amazon on national television?

Amazon isn't the only online bookseller, there are several well known sellers.

So selling his books on Amazon is "meeting a need"? What need might that be?

[SomethingNew]

287. I think if you took a couple steps back and looked at your posts with a degree of remove,

you would see just how silly your argument has become.

[KPN]

304. Oh brother. Like I said, mountain

out of a molehill due to ... well, I'll just leave it at that and say bye for now.

[leftstreet]

211. LOL

[David__77]

279. Good exposition of dirty politics.

...

[pnwmom]

355. He's giving credence to a PR stunt of Trump's. He should have pointed out

that the Trump org makes heavy use of Amazon and that Trump's real problem is with Jeff Bezos.

[Sophia4]

214. We need to look at a lot of our companies.

Amazon is one of them. Whether it is really dominating the market to a problematic extent should be studied.

We need to encourage innovation and competition, not monopolization.

But at this point, we don't even know what share of the retail market Amazon has. We talk a lot about Amazon, but my husband and I buy a lot from other on-line retailers too.

I don't think that on-line shopping is going to diminish. The selection we get when we shop on-line is just too wide. We don't find that in local retail stores.

Change is a part of life.

Amazon is just a harbinger of the kind of change to retail that on-line shopping is bringing.

Wheth

[ucrdem]

222. Amazon captured exactly 4% of US retail sales last year.

It captured 44% of e-commerce sales. Yes that's a lot of e-sales, but relatively speaking, it's not delivering death blow to brick-and-mortar sales or jobs. And while it originally evaded state tax collection at least in CA that is no longer the case.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/03/amazon-grabbed-4-percent-of-all-us-retail-sales-in-2017-new-study.html

[ucrdem]

235. p.s. 20% of the local economy in my area is Amazon "logistics" i.e. warehouses and delivery.

It's not the greatest work but it's work and they are building warehouses right and left. Also road improvements, restaurants, packaging manufacturers and all the rest. In other words it's propping up the local economy. Better Amazon the WalMart.

[PaulX2]

226. Amazon Is My Company's Biggest Competitor - I Love Paying Twice As Much For Shipping

It seems so fair to me....

Thank you for pointing it out Bernie. Part of the reason the lying pile of human feces is president is because he did say something true every once in a while. Amazon's size and advantages are putting many people in trouble. Fact.

I think your tax rate should be set by your market cap.

You pay higher taxes to make up for your huge advantages, and ability to manipulate markets (and save on shipping).

Of course Amazon and their friends pay no corporate income tax. That is for small businesses like mine.

Some of us smell the rats, including Bernie, and some of us don't. How many politicians complain about the fact that most large corporations pay little to no corporate income tax? Along with the wealthy. The rest of us working folks are taxed like the dickens. The wealthy pay a lot of taxes, but it is peanuts to how much more they make. How much do the Kochs or Waltons pay in their growing wealth? Nothing.

[jalan48]

248. Amazon owner Steve Bezos is also the richest person in the US. Does this make him an oligarch?

[Gothmog]

249. Attacking Amazon is stupid

[CentralMass]

321. Pointing out the ever growing monopoly that it is becoming is not IMO.

[Demsrule86]

324. It is not a monopoly just because it is large and successful and a politician you like spoke against

it.

[CentralMass]

379. The facts speak for themselves.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/amazon-is-going-to-kill-more-american-jobs-than-china-did-2017-01-19
"
Amazon is going to kill more American jobs than China did"


https://qz.com/1107112/there-are-170000-fewer-retail-jobs-in-2017-and-75000-more-amazon-robots/

SALES NOT JOBS
There are 170,000 fewer retail jobs in 2017—and 75,000 more Amazon robots
"Assuming the current industry trends continue through the end of the year, the number of employees in Amazon-related retail (that is, retail that Amazon competes with, such as book stores, as opposed to areas it doesn’t compete with, like gas stations) will decline by about 1% year-over-year. While that’s a small percentage, the number of job losses would be 170,000. That would be the first annual decline since 2009.
Amazon’s employment increases won’t be enough to cover the losses in the rest of the industry. We have assumed Amazon will maintain its current year-over-year headcount growth rate and will add 146,000 employees worldwide in 2017, a 43% increase (excluding Whole Foods employees). Even with that aggressive growth assumption, and including Amazon employees worldwide, the combined employment at Amazon and Amazon-related retail would still decline by 24,000.
Amazon has already added 55,000 robots this year and its growth rate is accelerating. The company stated it had 45,000 robots at the end of 2016, added 35,000 robots by the end of the first half of 2017, and then another 20,000 in the third quarter. We’ve assumed another 20,000 in the fourth quarter for a total of 75,000 new robots in 2017. While it may be difficult to prove causality, it’s not difficult to see the correlation between a decline of 24,000 human employees and an increase of 75,000 robot employees"

[Gothmog]

378. There is no monopoly in the real world

No one in the real world would make such a claim and a court would laugh and through such a claim out of court

[CentralMass]

445. I disagree. Twelve Democrats sent a letter addressed to the Department of Justice and Federal Trade

Commission on this matter last year.

The letter, signed by Rep. Marcia Fudge, D-Ohio, and 11 other Democrats, warned against further monopolization and argued the Amazon-Whole Foods merger "should be scrutinized beyond the normal antitrust review process."

https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/consumers-beware-amazon-monopoly-will-price-gouge/

"Barry Lynn, director of the New America Foundation's Open Markets program, put it this way: "This is the crushing of competition. Amazon is monopolizing commerce in the United States. Now Amazon is seeking to become the company when you say to yourself, 'I'm going to go buy something' you think Amazon."

Lynn's concern was echoed by 12 members of Congress last year, who criticized Amazon in a letter addressed to the Department of Justice and Federal Trade Commission. The letter, signed by Rep. Marcia Fudge, D-Ohio, and 11 other Democrats, warned against further monopolization and argued the Amazon-Whole Foods merger "should be scrutinized beyond the normal antitrust review process."


The letter is linked in the above link and was signed by Reps Donold Payne, Maxine Waters, Bonnie Watson Coleman, Gregory Meeks, Bennie G. Thompson, Federica Wison, Val Demings, Emmanuel Cleaver, Barbara Lee and Senator Cory Booker.

[Gothmog]

493. Read the letter

I read the letter and even the author acknowledges that under traditional anti-trust concepts there are no anti-trust concerns. http://www.ufcw.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/61/files/2017/07/Lttr-to-DOJ-FTC-Re-Amazon-Whole-Foods-072017.pdf The letter wants the FTC to come up with new concepts to fit the situation going forward. The FTC and the DOJ have to enforce the law as written.

If you want to change the law to address Amazon, then GOTV and help us take back congress. Making vague claims about anti-trust issues that may occur in the future.

I Amjured (got the high grade) in antitrust a long time ago. Current anti-trust concepts do not apply to what Amazon is doing and a court would throw out a challenge based on the Fudge letter without a change in the statutory framework that governs anti-trust law

[CentralMass]

505. I would hope and assume that if any of the Democrats who signed that letter were asked, as

Sanders was asked, if Amazon is a problem, they would have responded yes. They did not send that letter without careful deliberation.

This issue is being turned into trump is attacking Amazon therefore it is good and we must defend it and any politician who states otherwise is a trump conspirator.

[Gothmog]

508. There is still no anti-trust violation described in that letter

Last edited Tue Apr 3, 2018, 05:32 PM - Edit history (1)

The letter sets forth no antitrust complaint that can be addressed under current law. Being successful s not an anti-trust violation.

It may well be desirable to constrain Amazon but this will have to be done by an amendment to the existing anti-trust laws. Trump's attack on Amazon does render everything that this company is doing good. However making bogus claims about the violation of the federal anti-trust laws does not advance anything

[CentralMass]

529. Who made bogus claims ? Not the12 Democrats or Sanders.

This is not particularly a driving issue of mine however seeing Sanders getting slimed by it resulted in me revisiting it. IMO Amazon uses predatory and monopolistic business practices. Practice like selling books at a loss for 3 years to drive your competitors out of business. Or when they throw in the towel and start selling on Amazon as a third party seller Amazon undercuts them and or pushes there equivalent product as the top cho once even in cases where it ismore expensive.

Their ultimate goal is that you must be an Anazon customer to purchase anything. They strive to own and control the infrastructure for all online commerce. They are buying brick and mortar store and ttempting to monopolize those markets. Like Whole Foods. You can see it coming where you need to be an Amazom member to get preferential pricing on or offline.

They have also displaced many retail jobs and turned them into fewer warehouse order picking jobs (with less the stellar wages and working conditions)and are displacing those jobs with automation.

[Gothmog]

532. The only bogus claims are those asserting that Amazon is violating anti-trust laws on this thread

Have you read the letter from the 12 Democrats? The 12 democrats do not claim that Amazon is violating the anti-trust laws. These 12 Democrats are not making an anti-trust claim against Amazon but would like the FTC to look at Amazon under other theories. Under the current anti-trust laws there are no claims.

Amazon is not violating the anti-trust laws but there are practices by Amazon that can been commented on. Right now, the laws would have to be changed to make Amazon's current conduct illegal.

[CentralMass]

541. The title of this post seeks to tie Sanders to trump. In saying that Amazon is problematic, Sanders

IMO was stating an opinion shared by many. He did not mention antitrust or validate Trump. However Anazon appears to be on a path to a modern monopoly.

[Gothmog]

542. There are several sub threads where posters are asserting anti-trust claim

I am not a fan of Amazon but I do not believe that there have been any anti-trust violations. The letter you posted did not allege any anti-trust violations.

[CentralMass]

543. Nor did I or did Sanders, the titled target of this post.

[Gothmog]

551. Did you read your post 321?

Pointing out the ever growing monopoly that it is becoming is not IMO.

What is the difference between monopolies and anti-trust law? They did not make a distinction in law school

[CentralMass]

554. I am referring to this post entitled "Sen. Sanders agrees with Trump that Amazon is problem"

Not any of the comments or subthreads.

[Gothmog]

559. LOL

You raised a bogus issue and cited material that did not support your claims. I am amused that you want to change the subject. Thank you for the laughs

[LexVegas]

256. Sanders.

[sl8]

263. Video and transcript:

Transcript:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1804/01/sotu.01.html

Video:
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/07/30/sotu-sanders-full.cnn

Or,

[Snotcicles]

282. How dare you

post links to videos that are straight forward and filled with reasonable thought instead of sarcasm and ridicule.

[mountain grammy]

335. Indeed! Shocking!

[Blue_true]

284. The lack of focus that you pointed out is why I have an issue trusting Bernie.

Bernie has no capacity to see that what Trump is trying to do is destroy the Washington Post and Jeff Bezos and in so doing, send a chill through all of the free press. Bernie runs on one gear, it is all big banks, big business and oligarchs to him, he seem to be cognizant of precious little else.

[jrthin]

285. ........

[RandySF]

291. And the stock market is tanking because the Orange Idiot is tweeting about Amazon

It's here to stay folks, and Trump and Bernie (to a lesser extent) spent 2016 promising a return to a retail model that's gone and not coming back.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

298. Lol. Sanders breathes and so does Trump!!! OMG!!!!!

?itemid=9589482

[Initech]

329. OK so Trump doesn't release his tax returns. Why does he get to criticize anyone else for it?

[Wwcd]

353. Precisely. Let's see both Trump & bern's full tax returns since they both think they can go after a

Private Co just because trump's losing money & bern needs a shot at publicity.

Bern agrees with Trump.
Does he even know WHY Trump started poking a stick at Amazon?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

462. This🔝🔝🔝🔝🔝🔝🔝🔝🔝🔝

[JCanete]

341. This makes no sense. I refuse to get on board the ridiculous politic that is doing our nation harm,

not good, that says you can never agree with anything somebody on the other side says, because you have just ceded ground. This is outright crazy. That is not the way to convince people that your side and your message is right. That is a way to convince people that you are just a partisan hack. Those who are okay with ultra partisanship will join you or the other side, those who find it disgusting may just flip a coin or stay home.

Instead, what Sanders has done is used the things that Trump has said in the past to shine a stark contrast between the messaging he gave the people(some of which Sanders said should be done as well) and Trump's actual actions. THAT is the right way to deal with Trump and what he says. Not running away from anything that he suddenly espouses to support.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

434. Crazy is right!! But, why should that stop one from missing an opportunity to bash Bernie?!

[KG]

369. I LOL'd

again.

[ecstatic]

398. That's my issue with him as well. Too rigid & singularly focused. Easily played; can't adapt

and quickly adjust to new information (especially if it contradicts something he thinks is true). You have this example, you have the tariffs example, and you have him defending Shulkin the other day. Yes, Shulkin was against privatization, but Yes, Shulkin was using the VA to travel and do all sorts of personal things. Then there's the grumpiness and dismissiveness when it comes to issues he doesn't care about. The media knows he's divisive and that's why they love inviting him on, to stir division.

[Civic Justice]

402. He's STILL doing stuff that divides the DEMOCRATIC Party

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210412020

[Honeycombe8]

427. Shulkin has a different story about that travel thing.

He says he did just the normal thing that has always been done. A trip abroad, so he brought his wife & a kid. She went her way, while he attended to business. Then they spent a day, after business over, to attend some big fair or something. That was not on the govt dime.

I think part of that may have been charged to the govt...don't know if it was the flight or whatever. He says HE didn't do that. That's the job of a staffer, who screwed up the charges. He's not the one who does that paperwork.

Whether Shulkin was doing something improper or not, I'm pretty sure that's not why he was fired. We all know that Trump, corrupt as he is, doesn't normally fire people for being corrupt. He fires people because they disagree with him or aren't loyal enough to him.

[True Blue American]

483. Thank you for explaining

Why the media keeps dragging Bernie out.

[Civic Justice]

412. We watched

Walmart Destroy Community Business, now Amazon is Destroy the remainder of Community Business - as well as independent Merchant and Major Merchant Facilities.

Amazon is a MONSTER, in the Digital Age, the SAME as we saw Walmart Become a Monster !!!

Greed Madness is not Good Business, and Making Money is not the only marker we should look at for Success.

Success is when Business and Industry Hire and Pay People a living wage,

and respect and support the citizens whom becomes its patrons, as well as being one in the same that makes up its workforce. This makes communities thrive.

Amazon is doing none of that!!!! It is trying to dominate in all categories.

"Setting up shop on Amazon’s platform has helped Gazelle Sports stabilize its sales. But it’s also put the company on a treacherous footing. Amazon, which did not respond to an interview request, touts its platform as a place where entrepreneurs can “pursue their dreams.” Yet studies indicate that the relationship is often predatory. Harvard Business School researchers found that when third-party sellers post new products, Amazon tracks the transactions and then starts selling many of their most popular items itself. And when it’s not using the information that it gleans from sellers to compete against them, Amazon uses it to extract an ever larger cut of their revenue.
https://www.thenation.com/article/amazon-doesnt-just-want-to-dominate-the-market-it-wants-to-become-the-market/
To succeed, sellers need to “win the buy-box”—that is, be chosen by Amazon’s algorithms as the default seller for a product. But according to ProPublica, “about three-quarters of the time, Amazon placed its own products and those of companies that pay for its [warehousing and shipping] services in that position even when there were substantially cheaper offers available from others.” As more third-party sellers have agreed to sign up for these services, Amazon has repeatedly raised its fees, with fulfillment fees rising this year by as much as 14 percent for standard-size items (and more for oversize goods), on top of similar increases in 2017.

Whole Foods will never again be what it was, "expect the quality to fall", and "customer service to VANISH"... Robots will unload the truck and stock the shelves, and monitored customers will have their data swiped along with their payment being cataloged to promote other areas of marking to pursue Category Dominance, that's Amazon aims .... to dominate.

When manufacturers began shipping "everything" directly to Amazon, the same as Walmart dominated Chinese Manufacturing and would not allow them to sell to anyone else, if it wanted to have a contract with Walmart. The same game is coming from Amazon.

Amazon backed Birkenstock into a corner, threatening to allow a deluge of counterfeit Birkenstocks onto its site—many from overseas sellers—unless the shoe company agreed to sell directly to Amazon the niche products it had previously reserved for specialty retailers. Birkenstock pushed back, but other companies, including Nike, appear to have caved to a similar demand.

People and the Pursuit of POWER.... has continued to damage the United States... since shortly after the Declaration of Independence was established. We remain blind to the game, and it continues to build up and abuse and misuse the people in "each phase and cycle", EACH TIME, in its wake; it results to destroy even more in the broader view.....

We might as well expect America to look like this....

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1230&bih=568&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=-cDCWuTyI4XYzgLkhp7AAg&q=Closed+business&oq=Closed+business&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l3j0i8i30k1l7.19989.19989.0.20504.1.1.0.0.0.0.188.188.0j1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.186....0.6AqdrN0aLww#imgrc=unnHYkFjnuWjnM:


INSANITY is when we keep falling for the same process over and over, and expecting a different result !!!!

[vi5]

443. Wait, so were for giant corporations now?

We’re for big companies consolidating power that reaches into every aspect of our lives?

We’re for low wages and anti-union tactics?

We’re for compaies that make massive profits demanding huge tax breaks?

This is news to me, and doesn’t sound particularly progessive or Democratic.

And yes, I ise Amazon. I use more than a few companies I have problems with.

That doesn’t mean I don’t want checks and limits on their power and reach.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

454. Apparently so... hard to believe. But, hey, if Bernie's against giant corporations...

[vi5]

484. It's ironic...

that so many of the folks who rightfully accused Republicans of having "Clinton Derangement Syndrome" that led them to believe that anything tangentially related to anything Clinton did or said needed to be opposed, now seem to suffer from Bernie Derangement Syndrome.

[disillusioned73]

495. So spot on..

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

522. Ironic... and sad, especially when party unity is of the essence.

[Wwcd]

517. Wrong. We're against Trump profiting from the abuse of his position.

Has nothing to do with supporting a corporation or not.

Hard to believe people support Trump on this now that bernie stepped in the fight between Trump & Bezos..

Kinda makes that horseshoe theory more believable doesn't it?

[JCanete]

459. it truly explains so much about the fights we've been having on these boards in the last year. Truly

depressing. We are in deep shit as a nation if this is what even fellow democrats sound like today.

[ecstatic]

463. There's a right way and a wrong way to address issues,

and trump is behaving like a dictator. This is NOT about Amazon, which his campaign spent nearly 200k with. He's doing this to suppress a news organization that is providing information to the public. He's trying to destroy our ability to get accurate information about what he's up to. No democrat should give cover to trump's actions. When he's done destroying WP, next it will be the NYT, CNN, MSNBC, etc. until all we're left with is the Washington Times and Sinclair Broadcasting.

Bernie, once again, foolishly missed the point by agreeing with trump, and further normalizing his actions. Bernie also gave his stamp of approval for trump's tariffs, which were announced randomly and erratically with no real thought or planning. Low info voters will think to themselves, "Oh, Bernie say's it's OK, so what's the problem?" For some reason, Bernie still doesn't get what we're up against right now.

[JI7]

470. lol, Trump doesn't give a shit any of that. he is going after Amazon because of the Washington Post

why make it as if Trump's attacks have anything to do with these issues.

if it was about those issues that would apply to other companies also and maybe come up with policies and to address those things and discuss it.

[Civic Justice]

472. seem like the Trump machine is succeeding in "Leading people by Confusion"

People should be aware... look into things... learn for ones self, what is the nature of a matter.

400+ comments, but few are doing any actual research, to get to the facts.. many are satisfied making only slap stick comedic comments.

Hitler used these "Drama Games" on people, until they had no idea what to believe, and they came to accept anything Hitler did.... while he consolidate power in many other areas, when he took over.. he had power over even the biggest of Russia's Enterprises.

Maybe we should actually research and read and get information as a first objective. We have been hoodwinked to run with any "drama spin" this Autocratic Aspiring Regime has put forth. Democratic Disunity is being exampled in this site far too often... and supported in further disunity by a cycle spin of "conflicting slap stick comments".

[Orsino]

482. This is apples and oranges, and bullshit.

What Trump and Sanders said aren't alike.

And yet any of us might agree that Amazon has gotten too big, while few of us would single out Amazon as a tax evader.

[vi5]

496. Agreed....

..and part of the problem is that they don't NEED to evade taxes. Politicians on "both sides" are more than willing to give them everything they want for free. Watching the states with Democratic governers and legislatures fight to see who can give Amazon a bigger free ride to come to their state is nauseating.

Why the hell would Amazon need to evade paying their taxes. They play the game the way the game is set up, and there is very little resistance from anyone with any semblance of power.

[alarimer]

490. Because it is.

No Democrat or liberal worth their salt should support Amazon, given how they treat their employees and give how they have driven many local businesses out of business. They are WalMart on steroids. A shitty company that happens to do things we like is stil;l a shitty company. Of course, many prominent Democrats sit on the boards of shitty companies because they don't really give a shit about workers.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/12/7-examples-how-amazon-treats-their-90000-warehouse.html

[Wwcd]

511. No Democrat or liberal worth their salt should support Trump either.

With Trump everything is personal.

Trump does nothing, criticizes nothing unless there's a personal gain in it for him.

Thanks bernie.

[alarimer]

514. They fucking don't

Neither does Sanders. Stop fucking equating the two. It's disgusting.

[Wwcd]

520. There was no equating the two until bern stepped in the middle of it.

This is his problem now.
What is he doing in the middle of a battle between Trump & Bezos anyway?


Disgusting is correct.

[JCanete]

562. no it isn't. Learn some nuance. jesus.

[Wwcd]

563. ROFL!! I'm sure Jesus already knows all the nuance he'd ever need.

[JCanete]

564. hehe...I mean, getting martyred on a cross is a little on the nose, don't you think?

[Wwcd]

565. That's disgusting. You seriously think its funny? Wow

Bye

[JCanete]

566. oh dear...yes, I think a lot of things are funny. I can find humor in things I think are sad. I'm

sorry you aren't capable of that. Good luck to you.

[RandySF]

528. Macy's are closing stores to focus on online sales. Do we punish them?

The labor issues are legitimate but Amazon is not alone in this. As for e-commerce, that's a bigger issue than Amazon and there's no going back to 30 years ago.

[honest.abe]

494. Wrong Bernie.

Amazon is playing by the rules and is just very very good at it.

Bernie is once again pushing his "one size fits all" solution to all America's problems.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

518. I would argue that anybody who agrees with Trump is problematic.

[RandySF]

527. Trump and Bernie are 24 years late to this debate.

And we all know that Trump is just using it as an excuse to go after an old business rival.

[Demsrule86]

540. It is hilarious to see Walmart execs whine that Amazon is ruining 'retail' jobs. They destroyed

plenty of companies in their quest for power with all sorts of nefarious practices.

[JCanete]

567. is sanders really 24 years late to this debate? He hasn't talked about this shit ever before? hmmm?

Yes, though, lets agree where we agree. Trump is just doing this because he thinks power is a means to personal ends. He is truly a sociopath, and a stupid one. It doesn't mean that sometimes, since he'll utter all kinds of shit, he isn't right about a little detail here and there.

[ucrdem]

572. None of that matters. He should have pushed back on principal and he didn't.

If it had been Bill or Hill or Barack or John Kerry I imagine that would be crystal clear.

[JCanete]

576. no. I don't begrudge people not being foolish and agreeing with a stopped clock when it happens to

actually tell the right time of day. To do otherwise would be strange.

[Blue_Tires]

579. Donald Fucking Trump of all people is accusing someone else of being a tax dodge??