Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

highplainsdem

(49,004 posts)
Tue Apr 3, 2018, 09:36 PM Apr 2018

Former US attorney & MSNBC legal expert makes two VERY important points here:

These are tweets this evening from Joyce White Vance. Her Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_White_Vance


These tweets of hers caught my attention:





If Mueller believes he has sufficient evidence to indict Trump, but cannot indict a sitting President, expect the report he writes to be sufficiently politically damaging to make impeachment the only option. The GOP didn’t turn on Nixon until his crimes were clear.





Even more importantly, she tweeted about some details of DOJ policy explaining that even if Mueller expects Trump to be indicted, he might not notify Trump's lawyers of that for certain reasons:






In light of this evenings news that Trump’s lawyers were advised by Mueller that he is not currently a target, here’s DOJ policy on when prosecutors must advise a suspect that they are a target.




Link to the DOJ page with that policy:

https://www.justice.gov/usam/usam-9-11000-grand-jury


9-11.153 - Notification of Targets

When a target is not called to testify pursuant to USAM 9-11.150, and does not request to testify on his or her own motion (see USAM 9-11.152), the prosecutor, in appropriate cases, is encouraged to notify such person a reasonable time before seeking an indictment in order to afford him or her an opportunity to testify before the grand jury, subject to the conditions set forth in USAM 9-11.152. Notification would not be appropriate in routine clear cases or when such action might jeopardize the investigation or prosecution because of the likelihood of flight, destruction or fabrication of evidence, endangerment of other witnesses, undue delay or otherwise would be inconsistent with the ends of justice.



Emphasis added.

This policy detail makes it clear that even if Mueller believes he has enough evidence to indict Trump, he is not required to notify Trump's lawyers of that fact, given all the things Trump could try to do to obstruct the investigation and prosecuton.
24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Former US attorney & MSNBC legal expert makes two VERY important points here: (Original Post) highplainsdem Apr 2018 OP
Kick dalton99a Apr 2018 #1
I respect her... Mike Nelson Apr 2018 #2
It would have to be truly heinous. I think it will be blake2012 Apr 2018 #17
DU rec...nt SidDithers Apr 2018 #3
Notifying a target Clarity2 Apr 2018 #4
Thank you. babylonsister Apr 2018 #5
The operative follow-up question here would be - Would he even listen to them? calimary Apr 2018 #16
tRump is bdamomma Apr 2018 #6
he'll need to make clear he doesn't believe he can indict a sitting president bigtree Apr 2018 #7
Thanks for these caveats. triron Apr 2018 #8
K&R orangecrush Apr 2018 #9
Two things to keep in mind regarding Nixon. PoindexterOglethorpe Apr 2018 #10
good points elmac Apr 2018 #12
No, they won't. PoindexterOglethorpe Apr 2018 #13
But if GOP also in neck deep with tRump benld74 Apr 2018 #11
Impeachment would not proceed Awsi Dooger Apr 2018 #19
Justice. n/t slumcamper Apr 2018 #14
K&R for sunlight. n/t KY_EnviroGuy Apr 2018 #15
VOTE in NOVEMBER. Deliver us a Democratic House and Senate blake2012 Apr 2018 #18
Yeah! Cha Apr 2018 #22
+1,000,000 highplainsdem Apr 2018 #23
KnR Hekate Apr 2018 #20
Thank you for the emphasis, highplainsdem! Cha Apr 2018 #21
thanks for the post. i feel better now. KewlKat Apr 2018 #24

Mike Nelson

(9,959 posts)
2. I respect her...
Tue Apr 3, 2018, 09:43 PM
Apr 2018

...but I'm not sure the present Republican Congress will impeach and convict Crooked Donald, despite the clarity of his crimes.

Clarity2

(1,009 posts)
4. Notifying a target
Tue Apr 3, 2018, 09:49 PM
Apr 2018

in many cases doesnt make sense to me. If you are conducting a mob or drug sting for years for instance, would you notify them they are a target? Hell no.

babylonsister

(171,070 posts)
5. Thank you.
Tue Apr 3, 2018, 10:01 PM
Apr 2018

I wish we could let dt go on his merry way without the media educating him...maybe.

I do think he's doomed. Finally.

calimary

(81,322 posts)
16. The operative follow-up question here would be - Would he even listen to them?
Wed Apr 4, 2018, 12:38 AM
Apr 2018

Fox & Friends maybe. But they spoonfeed him everything that is fawning and favorable. The other media, ANY other media trying or not trying to educate him - they're the ones reporting things he doesn't want to hear or believe. So those are the ones he'll summarily dismiss as "fake news."

bdamomma

(63,875 posts)
6. tRump is
Tue Apr 3, 2018, 10:09 PM
Apr 2018

happy about being a "subject" ............what a jerk....let him sit down and answer questions let him bury himself.

Anyone watching Lawrence O'Donnell?

bigtree

(85,998 posts)
7. he'll need to make clear he doesn't believe he can indict a sitting president
Tue Apr 3, 2018, 10:13 PM
Apr 2018

...and make clear crimes (for anyone other than a sitting president) have been committed.

Does anyone believe Congress will impeach Trump for anything other than criminal charges, much less crimes said to be committed in a report?

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,862 posts)
10. Two things to keep in mind regarding Nixon.
Tue Apr 3, 2018, 10:48 PM
Apr 2018

First off, is that Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate. And the Republican leadership of that era, while understandably loyal to the Republican President, were also men of, if not honor, decency.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,862 posts)
13. No, they won't.
Tue Apr 3, 2018, 11:24 PM
Apr 2018

And had Republicans controlled either the House or the Senate Nixon might not have resigned. It's hard to say.

I was an adult and lived in the Washington DC area then, and even though I did not work for the federal government, the last week before the election it was obvious to everyone that absolutely no work was being done in any branch of government.

I worked at DCA, National Airport, and was working when Nixon made his resignation speech. I can tell you that I never before or since saw the airport at such a complete standstill. Planes did not push away from the gate so as to watch or listen to the speech. Not a single person came up to our ticket counter in the nearly twenty minutes Nixon was speaking. No one.

I have a recurring fantasy that I will be alerted to Trump's leaving office by massive fireworks and street celebrations.

 

Awsi Dooger

(14,565 posts)
19. Impeachment would not proceed
Wed Apr 4, 2018, 12:49 AM
Apr 2018

In this climate there is no such thing as a report that is, "sufficiently politically damaging to make impeachment the only option."

Trump and Fox and Republicans everywhere would scoff at any report. They would devote every second to mangling it and picking apart every word. Truth means squat to that crowd.

Whenever someone makes a Nixon comparison you can basically toss out the remainder of their premise. Brutal comprehension of situational impact.

Cha

(297,323 posts)
21. Thank you for the emphasis, highplainsdem!
Wed Apr 4, 2018, 03:53 AM
Apr 2018
"Notification would not be appropriate in routine clear cases or when such action might jeopardize the investigation or prosecution because of the likelihood of flight, destruction or fabrication of evidence, endangerment of other witnesses, undue delay or otherwise would be inconsistent with the ends of justice."
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Former US attorney & MSNB...