Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 08:58 AM Apr 2018

Why do all the legal "experts" on TV say that Trump should not sit down with Special Counsel?

What choice does he have? Just ignore the Special Counsel? Then ignore the subpoena to the grand Jury?

Instead of saying that Trump should not be permitted to sit down with Mueller, perhaps they should say that when Trump sits down with Mueller, he will need to tell the truth? Is that too much to expect from the person sitting in the Oval Office?

Anyway, lawyers do not tell Donald Trump what to do. He tells his lawyers what he wants them to do and say.

He's sweating. But he doesn't want his supporters to see him sweat. He cannot tell the truth because it would expose him. Therefore, he lies.

38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why do all the legal "experts" on TV say that Trump should not sit down with Special Counsel? (Original Post) kentuck Apr 2018 OP
His only option .... ewagner Apr 2018 #1
As soon as mueller gets under his skin, hell drop himself in the shit sunonmars Apr 2018 #3
EXACTLY! "He cannot tell the truth because it would expose him. Therefore, he lies." FM123 Apr 2018 #2
Because of gejohnston Apr 2018 #4
I don't think Mueller will be looking for a simple "perjury trap"... kentuck Apr 2018 #6
What you and I think gejohnston Apr 2018 #20
How would that be a "responsible" lawyer? kentuck Apr 2018 #22
Yes. gejohnston Apr 2018 #24
That is the logical route this is going, in my opinion. kentuck Apr 2018 #26
Of course he looks for perjury traps. former9thward Apr 2018 #29
That is a strange comparison for a Democrat. hedda_foil Apr 2018 #9
I was speaking as if gejohnston Apr 2018 #18
Simple, all he has to do is tell the truth. But he is incapable of telling the truth emulatorloo Apr 2018 #19
Quote experts gejohnston Apr 2018 #21
But anonymous posters on the internet know everything. former9thward Apr 2018 #25
The argument has to be judged on merit and rationale, not on whether they are on Internet or on TV. kentuck Apr 2018 #27
Any credible lawyer would tell their client not to talk to a U.S. Attorney. former9thward Apr 2018 #31
Because he's stupid Iliyah Apr 2018 #5
LOL femmocrat Apr 2018 #7
It is not Trump's choice Botany Apr 2018 #8
He wants a "mulligan"... kentuck Apr 2018 #10
Much of the media and their talking heads been pushing the false meme that Trump has a choice Botany Apr 2018 #12
He is attempt to escape the ultimate authority... kentuck Apr 2018 #14
The people who are stating that he should not sit down with Mueller, support him politically. RDANGELO Apr 2018 #11
He will try to spin the 5th Amendment as necessary because of the conspiracy against him... kentuck Apr 2018 #13
Because he's a reflexive liar mythology Apr 2018 #15
Because the only possible outcomes are nego Lee-Lee Apr 2018 #16
So then, the only alternative would be to subpoena him before the Grand Jury. kentuck Apr 2018 #17
They are using reverse psychology.....say dont do it and he will! KewlKat Apr 2018 #23
He can take the 5th and the Congress will do absolutely nothing about it MaryMagdaline Apr 2018 #28
That is his constitutional right. kentuck Apr 2018 #30
Exactly. All those people saying he would pay a political price must be thinking of MaryMagdaline Apr 2018 #32
He will probably take the 5th and blame it on the "deep state".. kentuck Apr 2018 #33
He can take 5th under any circumstance. Civil, MaryMagdaline Apr 2018 #34
Thanks Mary! kentuck Apr 2018 #35
Welcome MaryMagdaline Apr 2018 #37
Since trump always does Turbineguy Apr 2018 #36
a few points, and a few principles. unblock Apr 2018 #38

ewagner

(18,964 posts)
1. His only option ....
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:07 AM
Apr 2018

...is to take the 5th Amendment

that's it...

If he tells the truth he's screwed

If he lies, he's screwed.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
4. Because of
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:10 AM
Apr 2018

Perjury traps and other process crimes can include honest mistakes. See Ken Star and Bill Clinton.

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
6. I don't think Mueller will be looking for a simple "perjury trap"...
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:14 AM
Apr 2018

He's looking for outright lies and cover-up of criminal activities. He is not Ken Starr.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
20. What you and I think
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:16 AM
Apr 2018

Doesn't matter. All I said was what any responsible lawyer would tell their client. All prosecutors should be on a tight leash and viewed with suspicion.

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
22. How would that be a "responsible" lawyer?
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:31 AM
Apr 2018

To tell his client something that would not be in his best interest? Refuse to sit down with the Special Counsel and wait for the subpoena to the Grand Jury?

Then what would be the responsible thing to do?

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
26. That is the logical route this is going, in my opinion.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 11:02 AM
Apr 2018

Trump will take the "Fifth" and blame it all on the "deep state" for being unable to answer the questions asked. That will be sufficient for his supporters.

former9thward

(32,082 posts)
29. Of course he looks for perjury traps.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 11:10 AM
Apr 2018

His only guilty pleas so far have been to perjury. He is no different than any other prosecutor. Please remember, Mueller is the man who hounded Steven Hatfill for years as the supposed 9/11 anthrax killer. Hatfill sued and got 5.8 million from the DOJ. Mueller then went after a totally different guy who ultimately committed suicide.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/washington/28hatfill.html

emulatorloo

(44,186 posts)
19. Simple, all he has to do is tell the truth. But he is incapable of telling the truth
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:06 AM
Apr 2018

Which is why the pro-Trump “legal experts” on TV say bullshit nonsense about “perjury traps”

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
27. The argument has to be judged on merit and rationale, not on whether they are on Internet or on TV.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 11:04 AM
Apr 2018

Is it credible? Does it make sense?

It doesn't matter where it comes from.

former9thward

(32,082 posts)
31. Any credible lawyer would tell their client not to talk to a U.S. Attorney.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 11:12 AM
Apr 2018

No good can come from it. If there was a later subpoena, which I doubt, then you cross that bridge when you get to it.

Botany

(70,588 posts)
8. It is not Trump's choice
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:24 AM
Apr 2018

He can agree to do an interview and/or get a subpoena to show up
in front of a grand jury.

Botany

(70,588 posts)
12. Much of the media and their talking heads been pushing the false meme that Trump has a choice
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:36 AM
Apr 2018

He doesn't. But they ignored so many other things such as Trump's "military school" was
really reform school for rich kids and that Melania Trump was a sex worker.

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
14. He is attempt to escape the ultimate authority...
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:40 AM
Apr 2018

...the US Government.

It's worked for him in the past.

But, you are correct. It is a false meme.

RDANGELO

(3,435 posts)
11. The people who are stating that he should not sit down with Mueller, support him politically.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:33 AM
Apr 2018

They are assuming that he could be around to run for a second term. If he does sit down and takes the fifth, his political career is over but, ironically, these people are saying that a person that they say is fit to be president should not talk to Muller because he can't tell the truth.

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
13. He will try to spin the 5th Amendment as necessary because of the conspiracy against him...
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:37 AM
Apr 2018

The "deep state" makes it impossible for him to answer the questions asked, he will say.

Eventually it will end up in the Supreme Court, in my opinion.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
15. Because he's a reflexive liar
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:45 AM
Apr 2018

He doesn't just lie when it would actually matters. He lies about the size of his inauguration crowd, he lies about the vote totals, he can't help himself. Even if he had absolutely nothing to lie about, he would lie about something. And I think given his use of twitter, he may not have been involved in anything. Would you tell a blithering idiot who can't keep his mouth shut a big secret?

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
16. Because the only possible outcomes are nego
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:57 AM
Apr 2018

If Mueller has enough tosupport charges already, Trumps testimony won’t change that. It can’t make evidence go away.

If Mueller doesn’t have enough then Trump can only stand to harm himself by testifying, because either he will give enough to him to connect the dots or he will open himself up to a perjury charge either intentionally or unintentionally.

So it’s in Trunos best interest to evade testifying in person as much as possible. It’s all downside, no upside for him.

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
17. So then, the only alternative would be to subpoena him before the Grand Jury.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:04 AM
Apr 2018

Would that be preferable for him?

It's not a multiple choice question for him.

He could create a crisis and send it to the Courts, I suppose. And I would not be surprised if that is what happens.

First, he tries bullshit.
Then, he lies.
Then, he delays.
Then, he attacks.
Then, he pays.

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
30. That is his constitutional right.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 11:11 AM
Apr 2018

As it is with every American.

Would there be any political consequences from taking the 5th? I doubt that it would much matter with his supporters.

MaryMagdaline

(6,856 posts)
32. Exactly. All those people saying he would pay a political price must be thinking of
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 11:15 AM
Apr 2018

Former presidents. This guy will pay no political price. If he is smart he will take the 5th.

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
33. He will probably take the 5th and blame it on the "deep state"..
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 11:24 AM
Apr 2018

That he could not get a fair hearing under the circumstances and was forced to take the 5th. That will be enough to satisfy his supporters.

But, to take the 5th, must he do that under the Grand Jury or can he take the 5th under the Special Counsel questions?

MaryMagdaline

(6,856 posts)
34. He can take 5th under any circumstance. Civil,
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 11:27 AM
Apr 2018

Criminal pre-trial, whatever. Special counsel has subpoena power and can compel his attendance. From there, he would have to decide whether to answer or not.

MaryMagdaline

(6,856 posts)
37. Welcome
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 11:35 AM
Apr 2018

Before better lawyers correct me, I need to specify ... you can't refuse to answer in a civil case EXCEPT if the questions would place you in criminal jeopardy, such as "did you pay taxes last year?" Once the threat of criminal prosecution is over you have to testify. Hence OJ had to give deposition after beating the murder charges.

unblock

(52,328 posts)
38. a few points, and a few principles.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 11:53 AM
Apr 2018

first, i believe in vigorous defense against prosecution and i believe in the right of *all* defendants (guilty or not) to fully exercise their constitutional and procedural protections.

this does not mean i'm defending people who are guilty. rather, it means i'm defending a process that tries to prosecute people properly so that *innocent* people are not caught up through sloppy or overly aggressive prosecuting.


in that light, there is little to nothing to be gained from donnie's point of view in him *voluntarily* appearing in front of a grand jury unless it is part of a deal to spare him (and/or his family) from certain charges. it's very difficult to see this working out in his favor.

whether by accident or ego or habit, he's very likely to say something that implicates himself or perjures himself. this could be the case even if he isn't actually guilty of anything (yet), simply because his relationship with objective truth is tenuous at best. his penchant for self-flattery and insults and lies and contradictions could easily get him in trouble, again, even if he's actually innocent.


of course, i rather suspect he's guilty as hell, but my point is that even if he's completely innocent, appearing before a grand jury would be a mistake for him.


now, if mueller actually subpoenas him, then of course he has to comply. that raises the only real reason to appear voluntarily -- it might look better politically to go voluntarily than to be subpoenaed. but that's a purely political consideration. there's no legal advantage to going voluntarily. it's a bit like enlisting in the army to avoid getting drafted. again, unless there's a deal.




same goes for taking the fifth. legally speaking, there's no implication that the person taking the fifth is actually guilty. *politically*, it makes someone look guilty because if they weren't, perhaps they could have just answered the question. but legally, the jury and the courts are not allowed to make any such inference.

for example, say someone attacks me and i kill them in self-defense. i have no proof of self-defense, but prosecutors have no real proof tying me to the incident. if they ask me "did you kill that person", i can and should take the fifth. i'm innocent of murder, but i'd be a fool to admit that i was the one who killed that person, and then not be able to provide compelling evidence that the killing was justified under the circumstances.

legally, donnie should take the fifth where appropriate. again, that's not a defense of donnie, that's a defense of proper process, which is needed to protect the innocent.



to perhaps beat a dead horse, guilty people do us all a service by vigorously using all legal protections available to them. they help ensure the government sticks to proper procedures designed to protect the innocent from winding up in prison for crimes they did not commit.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Why do all the legal "exp...