LGBT kids literally kill themselves thanks to the logic of one of the posts Reid may or may not have

[dsc]

posted.

And then there are the concerns that adult gay men tend to be attracted to very young, post-pubescent types, bringing them into the lifestyle in a way that many people consider to be immoral. (Ditto with gay rights groups that seek to organize very young, impressionable, teens who may have an indication they are gay )

It is thinking like this that keeps adult gay men from helping young LGBT. It is thinking like this that makes my school push back at me over the idea of a GSA. When those kids can't get help, they kill themselves in some cases.

It is one thing to argue that she has been hacked, even as the evidence suggests that is unlikely. It is possible she was hacked. It is quite another thing, as many here have been doing, to argue that these posts aren't so bad, are just like what Hillary and Obama believed at the time, or aren't homophobic. Hillary and Obama didn't argue anything like this back in 2006. This is stuff that Perkins of the FRC would say. This isn't OK. It isn't what all kinds of people were saying. It is, quite bluntly, indefensible.

[David__77]

1. That strikes me as very reprehensible.

I understand that she apologized for the Crist thing: http://ew.com/tv/2017/12/03/joy-reid-homophobic-blog-posts-apology/

I am not aware of her addressing these other comments. Not that I think she has an obligation to do so.

Archives of her blog are freely available: https://web.archive.org/web/20060501000000*/https://blog.reidreport.com

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

23. Even though I assume Joy did NOT make these recently discovered comments, it WOULD be nice if

Joy went on the record and condemned them in the strongest possible terms, for all the reasons stated in the OP.

[David__77]

25. It also troubles me that so few are addressing the content of what was said.

...

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

27. That's because Joy is denying that she said it... it would be a good PR move if Joy HERSELF

condemned the vile hacked content of what was said, as you say, and started that conversation, which we definitely need to have, as a nation.

[David__77]

28. I agree.

Whether she says she made the comments or denies making them, addressing them and discussing the viewpoint associated with them would be great, in my opinion.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

33. Absolutely, Im actually surprised this hasnt sparked a national debate on homophobia, condemning it.

[George II]

90. Maybe because it's questionable that she wrote it, so why address something that probably....

.....was planted JUST so it would cause divisiveness?

Not falling for that ploy.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

2. I totally disagree w these types of past posts,

But people evolve. We run off our most ardent supporters then wonder why the gop is able to frame the messages and win. So long as shes not saying it now, and not running for office, let those who are pure as the driven snow cast the first stone. We need to be hyper-critical of the OTHER side. Joy is just a human being. Seems this has been top posting news for a few days now. Does she espouse this now? If not, it's my opinion we let it go and watch her closely. See Stephanie Miller yesterday about Black Propaganda. Not sure if it was, but, I put nothing past the rwnjs. Just an angle on it.

[TheSmarterDog]

3. And African Americans have been beaten, lynched & killed for less than what Joy Ann has done.

[Demsrule86]

4. She is African American...and this post should be deleted.

[TheSmarterDog]

7. And implying that Joy Ann advocates for LGBT youths to commit suicide is perfectly OK?

[Demsrule86]

50. I certainly didn't imply this.

I believe this is right wing bullshit.

[TheSmarterDog]

54. But the OP certainly did.

[dsc]

78. No I did not

you can keep repeating your untrue statement it is still untrue.

[TheSmarterDog]

80. You implied Joy Reid is responsible for suicides of LBGT youths. Yes you did.

If you're feeling remorse, don't lie and claim you didn't. Just delete the post.

[Demsrule86]

48. I don't know...I didn't see the first post.

Maybe it was a right wing source so they posted it again without the source.

[dsc]

5. and if a gay pundit said anything as racist

as that is homophobic I would want them fired too.

[TheSmarterDog]

6. This whole attack on Joy Ann is b/c she's black, and b/c she's a woman.

What you're doing is embellishing it's meaning & making her look worse. You're lying about her.

[dsc]

8. I typed the exact, precise words she said

or may have said, I added nothing, subtracted nothing. The words speak for themselves, plain and simple.

[Wwcd]

11. Where's the link to this flamebait?

Isn't your post alluding to Reid now being responsible for deaths?
Wtf.
Provide your source.

[dsc]

13. I didn't say she was responsible for deaths

I said the logic behind her words is. And yes, gay kids have committed suicide at an alarming rate. One high profile example. Tyler Clementi. You can use google

[Wwcd]

15. So your opinion piece DOES hint at Reid being responsible for Deaths.

You did say it.
Unless you have a link to another's writing this.

[dsc]

24. I said the logic behind the words

I was very clear in my post. You apparently chose not to read it. that isn't my fault.

[Wwcd]

31. Logic? There was no logic to your intentional attempt at

Spinning Reid's alledged statements into the cause of Deaths .

Jesus christ.
Where'd you get this sick idea?
You have a source? Link it.

[dsc]

34. I have a life lived

ask any LGBT adult and they will tell you that the whole idea that gay men target children is very much out there and very much a reason gay men won't deal with children at all in many cases. Again, those words keep LGBT adults from helping LGBT teens. That has only recently changed. When I was a teen literally no adult gays would help teens for that reason.

[Wwcd]

46. We all have "a life lived'. Linking Joy Reid to these Deaths is a really low blow.

I have my own Lived Life & would never have lain that on her shoulders as you did.

Bye

[tonedevil]

55. The post in question...

if written by Ms. Reid or the product of hacking says that adult gay men frequently prey on teen boys to bring them into the lifestyle. It goes on to attribute that behavior to gay rights groups. That thinking does in fact help to push gay teens to suicide. The only way Ms. Reid is being connected is this was found on her blog. At this point she is saying it was put there by somone else. Regardless who wrote it the sentiment expressed is deadly, you would do well to reflect on that.

[Wwcd]

74. "Regardless who wrote it the sentiment " ARE YOU SERIOUS!!

"Regardless who wrote it the sentiment "


Who wrote the semtiment?
Joy Reid, in the OP is now being held accountable for the deaths too??!!

It is you who be wise to show proof of that. Show proof of her words causing deaths Mr tonedevil.

Show proof or stop slandering. Joy Reid hasn't caused a single death as you & your friend seem to blame her for.

Stop your spin & slander or Show Proof of Reid causing any deaths.

WE'LL ALL BE HERE WAITING FOR THAT PROOF.
WHAT DEATHS HAS SHE CAUSED?

It hasn't even been proven that she said all the bs that's being spun at the speed of social media, & here we have some accusing her of causing deaths.

Show proof!

[tonedevil]

76. Ms. Reid says her blog was hacked...

that is her explaination for that post being found on her blog. I am not disputing her explanation. Feeding the idea that gay men are preying on teen boys does lead to gay teens being isolated and less able to talk to someone who understands what they are going through.
Regardless of who wrote it that is an offensive post. I have never accused Ms. Reid of writing it and challenge you to point out where I have.

[Wwcd]

81. The OP has no proof of Reid actually saying what she is accused of, & yet with that

..lack of proof the OP drops the suicide issue on top of that.
This OP should have been removed for the baseless slander hit piece it was intended to be.

Show us where any of Reids statements have directly caused the deaths the OP alluded to in his piece.

There are none.
I hope the FBI is indeed investigating the case of what is now looking like an opposition hit.

The OP has no link to his source & no proof of the slander of Reid now affiliated with any death by suicide.
JFC!


BYE
My ignore list just got a lot longer today.

[tonedevil]

84. I'll bet your ignore list is something to behold /nt

[TheSmarterDog]

18. You're heavily implying it. And that's reprehensable.

[tonedevil]

56. Are you defending...

the post in question?

[TheSmarterDog]

57. Do you think the OP is defensible?

[tonedevil]

60. I asked you first...

but I won't be evasive. I do think the OP is defensible because the content of the post is every bit as bad as the OP says it is. The OP also acknowledged that Ms. Reid is saying this is the product of a hack which is as yet unconfirmed. So do you think the statement on its own is defensible?

[TheSmarterDog]

61. I don't think lying is defensible.

The imply that Ms. Reid is responsible for & advocates teen suicide in any way is a lie. A lie spread by reprehensible lowlifes & scumbags.

[tonedevil]

62. You are evading the question...

do you think this is defensible?

And then there are the concerns that adult gay men tend to be attracted to very young, post-pubescent types, bringing them into the lifestyle in a way that many people consider to be immoral. (Ditto with gay rights groups that seek to organize very young, impressionable, teens who may have an indication they are gay )

I don't care who wrote it do you think those words are ok?

[TheSmarterDog]

64. And you're cherry picking.

[tonedevil]

66. I picked no cheries...

that is the post that appeared on Ms. Reid's blog that is the subject of this OP. That Ms. Reid is denying having written it is also acknowledged. The question I pose to you is do you defend that post?

[TheSmarterDog]

67. And you left out the OP's offending comment on it. Cherry Picking.

All the evidence I've seen shows Reid did not write that. However, the OP's comment is right there for you to see. Do you defend that?

[tonedevil]

72. I have asked you from the start...

if you think that post is defensible you have avoided giving an answer. I can only conclude you don't think it particularly offensive to say adult gay men frequently prey on teen boys. While the OP is skeptical of Ms. Reid's claim of being hacked it still acknowledged the possibility. The focus is on the post calling gay men predators why can't you denounce that?

[TheSmarterDog]

73. You think people should be held responsible for things they don't say?

When will you hold the OP responsible for the what they did say? Cherry picking again.

[tonedevil]

77. Who am I holding responsible...

for things they didn't say? I don't know who wrote the piece in question, but it appeared on Ms. Reid's blog which she says was hacked. Her explaination stands until proven otherwise, but the content of that post was undeniably heinous regardless of who wrote it.

[TheSmarterDog]

79. You're targeting Joy Reid for things she didn't say, from an anonymous accusation

Being promoted by entities that are not by any measure friends to Democrats, progressives & liberals. That makes the provenance of those posts and the resulting accusations suspect, at the very least.

And you have nothing to say about the greatly offensive comments of the OP.

[tonedevil]

83. How am I targering...

Ms. Reid? Was the post on her blog? Does she say her blog was hacked? Is the post offensive? Have I said anything else to target Ms. Reid?
Regarding the offensive things in the OP I understand the point to be similar to mine, but it does express more skepticism toward Ms. Reid's explaination that her blog was hacked than I hold.
You have purposefully misunderstood what I have written over and over, but I sure notice how you cannot say it is offensive to say adult gay men prey on teen boys.

[George II]

93. It's always "she said, or may have said". Why not wait until we KNOW whether or not she said it?

Instead, you post an OP, with no attributed source, all but saying that what she said has caused kids to kill themselves.

Listen, my brother is gay, and in his early 20s his lover at the time DID kill himself, because of cruel, vicious things that some people in his life said. It was a horrible thing for him to go through in his life. We don't throw out "may or may not have said" in my family.

If she said it, then let's condemn her. But if she didn't, and she's already been condemned, how do we reverse that? Or do we? Or don't we really care because she is who she is?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

30. That's IF Joy said it... has yet to be proven.

[George II]

94. Yes, it's "IF" "IF" "IF", yet the character destruction goes on, on the premise of "IF"!!!

I HATE THIS SHIT!!!!

How do you retract the character assassination and restore a person's reputation when "IF" turns out to be false?

Once again.........

I HATE THIS SHIT!!!!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

95. I understand completely... it's a terrible situation to be in for Joy and her supporters.

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt that she's been truthful about her blog being hacked and, as I've said, I've seen no contrary evidence that would convince me otherwise.

[EffieBlack]

97. They don't plan to retract it

No matter how bogus it could turn out to be, they intend to keep bringing it up - especially if Joy doesn't behave herself (for example, if she insists on doing "identity politics" or refuses to kiss a certain person's derriere on live TV)...

[George II]

98. I can't wait for 10 AM on Saturday morning. That'll be "must see TV"!

[Demsrule86]

49. LINK?

Joy denies this and asked for an investigation. So the interesting question is why the pile on?

[George II]

96. Sadly Sen. Franken asked for an investigation too, but still was forced out of office. "They" know..

....that they can get away with this character assassination, and it stinks to high heaven.

[EffieBlack]

29. African Americans have also been beaten and lynched based on the kinds of unproven allegations

being leveled at Joy.

So, maybe you should slow your roll on this one until you know all of the facts.

[dsc]

32. So it isn't a fact that those words are homophobic

that is what my OP is addressing. It was clearly written. Too bad you chose not to read it. The fact is if a gay pundit were accused of saying something as racist as those posts are homophobic and white gay posters were saying well even if he did say it it wasn't too bad, you would rightly put them in their place. Too bad, you don't let me have the same right.

[EffieBlack]

35. And raping a white woman and stealing flour were illegal, but that doesnt mean that every black

person accused of committing such crimes was guilty, or that lynching them for the, was right.

The comments were reprehensible. But Joy denies making them and I have no basis for assuming, without more evidence, that she is lying AND I have plenty of basis, given recent history, to believe that she could have been hacked, I’m not going to engage in an analysis of ugly posts that could very have likely been created by disrupters.

You, of course, are free to focus on whatever you choose. But accusing an African-American woman, without proof and against her denials, of promoting lies that could get someone lynched - without any sense of irony of the damage done to African Americans by false accusations against them will likely get a response from me, albeit, not the one you wanted.

[dsc]

45. Though I honestly find her story on this fairly hard to swallow

I specifically stated that I don't know if she posted those posts. I am taking issue with those who have stated that even if she did post them it is no big deal. Again, if this were an issue involving race I think you would be singing a very different tune.

[EffieBlack]

52. I have never said if she posted them, its no big deal

But since you decided to speculate how I would feel if this had something to do with race, I’ll tell you that I also think people can change over time and, even if they held terrible views in the past, if they’ve since evolved, owned what they’ve said, made efforts to atone for their past views and work t make a difference, I embrace them

If I didn’t - if I judged people based on their past mistakes and didn’t acknowledge and credit them for efforts they have made to overcome them, I’d have far fewer friends and and wouldn’t speak to half the people n my family,

I have an aunt who once fiercely opposed interracial dating and mixed marriages. Then she got to know a co-worker and started to spend more time with him out of the office. One thing led to another and they ended up getting married even though she was white and he was black. Over the years, she has learned and grown so much that she’s probably the most woke person in our family.

As I said, people change.

[TheSmarterDog]

37. A tireless advocate for truth is being railroaded by RW lies

and the OP is falsely accusing her of promoting suicide among LGBT youth. The word for it is reprehensible.

[EffieBlack]

40. And thats putting it mildly.

[mythology]

69. Except there is the very real possibility that she's lying

The claim requires evidence. She hasn't provided any.

[TheSmarterDog]

70. And you have absolutely no proof of that - other than an anonymous Twitter feed.

Something hinky is going on. It's not with Joy Reid. And the FBI is looking at her evidence.

[tulipsandroses]

10. Hillay and Bill Clinton are responsible

for the mass incarceration of many black men and women

I don't want them gone - It matters more to me what they are doing today I can't keep harping on Hlllary's past regarding mass incarceration. She's made amends - She's working towards progress. So is Joy. As a black person, If I rejected every single white person that said something vile in the past who is currently working for progress -I suspect. there would be very few people non blacks working to make this world a better place.

[NCTraveler]

17. They are making a very good point.....

As to what is going on in the bigger picture. The point is also on par with the issue you have with the op.

[Wwcd]

20. What does this bs on LGBT have to do with Clinton's

Nothing.

[NCTraveler]

22. They were making a solid comparison.

They weren't looking to throw Clinton out so why would they be looking to throw Reid out.

People change for the better.

One of my favorite Clinton traits. She isn't so rigid in her believes that she isn't willing to question herself.

[tulipsandroses]

42. A lot

Realize that you are making a mistake, your mistakes are hurting others, work for progress = Signifying you have matured and are growing

Your good work today should matter more than your words from years ago

[EffieBlack]

36. So obvious, yet too obtuse to realize it

[NCTraveler]

16. This. All day long. nt.

[George II]

19. How were either responsible (and you imply it was all on their shoulders)? Before....

....Bill Clinton could sign a "mass encarceration" bill into law it had to be passed by both houses of Congress, and Hillary Clinton was First Lady at the time.

[TheSmarterDog]

38. Back

Apparently it's perfectly acceptable to smear popular mainstream Democrats on Democratic Underground.

[tulipsandroses]

41. I am not implying that they are responsible for mass incarceration as a whole

Whew! Not trying to be dismissive, but folks need to calm down some. . Actually talk to folks and see what they think.

Someone reported my post as a violation of the TOS - under the rules of of it being Right wing talking points. - Without asking for clarification. I appealed and it was deemed not a violation so here is my clarification.

For clarification - Please note that I said that they were responsible for the mass incarceration of many black men and women. I was not trying to imply that they were responsible for Mass Incarceration as a whole. They both have admitted that their stance made matters worse, and yes many men and women were incarcerated. They have both apologized, both are working for progress. Therefore, I choose to not hold their past stance against them. It maters more to me what they are doing now.

[link:https://thinkprogress.org/hillary-clinton-says-she-agrees-her-role-in-mass-incarceration-was-a-mistake-eaa5b1b523c/|

I was trying to draw parallels to the Joy Reid situation. People can be wrong. Make amends, work towards progress.

If Hillary has been given that chance, so should Joy.

[oasis]

82. Trashing Democrats will never help you advance your argument or

your credibility.

[QC]

12. We're back to the pony days around here.

Or, more correctly, we never really left them behind.

[ollie10]

26. I think we need to see what happens

Apparently she has got the FBI into this. They will investigate. Until we know more, I think we need to be more calm

[EffieBlack]

39. Joy isnt stupid

She didn’t call in the FBI to investigate something she made up.

And if this were a lie, the FBI would have figured that out about 45 minutes after she called them in.

[ollie10]

43. Also, if she lied to the FBI that would be a crime

I tend to agree. She isn't stupid.

[EffieBlack]

47. My point exactly

She'd already be in some deep shite.

[bigtree]

44. so it's a statement that one could not countenance a liberal like Joy saying

...seems to bolster the case that it was inserted by someone else.

You've shown us how these statements add to stress and mental health of LGBT youth. What you're not showing us is how these comments mesh with what we all know about Joy Reid and her views. They're certainly aberrant from anything else she's actually been confirmed as saying.

Making it look like she's responsible for LGBT youth suicide (or potentially responsible) is far beyond what we know at this point, and I think uncalled for.

[stonecutter357]

51. cyber security experts have already found suspicious activity .

[MFM008]

53. One thing is CERTAIN

We never wait for real proof
Before throwing our people in a hole.

Al Franken.

[Amimnoch]

58. Sorry, not going to support this.

Yes, the stereotypes on us absolutely stink. Yes, they continue to propagate hate against us. Yes, more than just a few of our fellows have died as a result, not just by suicide but have also driven others to commit homicides against us.

There's so many bigger fish to direct our outrage against than someone who is, and has been at the VERY least 98% ally if these old blog posts are actually hers at all.

I’ve been a follower of Joy’s since 2016 on Twitter when I liked her coverage on AM Joy. I’d never seen or followed her blog, but I’ve seen and enjoyed MANY of her tweets over the last couple years. Most of the content I’ve seen from her on my twitter page has center around racial equality and challenges, but I have seen some about GLBT issues as well (I distinctly remember her being very supportive of our cause against that Kim Davis creature that refused to issue out marriage licenses), and nothing I’ve ever seen her tweet sounds at all like the blog posts. It just doesn’t read like it was written by the same person.

I don’t know if it was hers. Maybe it was hers and she’s evolved, maybe it was a hack, maybe it was a really bad decision during a bad time in her life, but I do know the current Joy that I’ve followed for the last couple of years isn’t that person, and personally.. I’m giving a full pass.

Rather than go after someone who may or may not have blogged a few nasty things years ago, maybe we should more focus on the Republicans in office that are actively looking to roll us back on our rights right now? Go after the sponsors of political pundents who want to see our marriages annuled, our rights eroded, and in some cases just outright believe we should be eradicated from the entire gene pool!

I'd much rather go after those than someone who may or may not have written something years ago on an obscure blog, and is obviously in full support of our rights and equality for at least the last couple years.

[NurseJackie]

68. I like the way you think.

[treestar]

71. +1

If people come around, there is progress. Why Harp in the time before they did? Seems counterproductive. And that is if she did post as stated.

[blake2012]

59. She shouldnt be fired/exiled over them if they occurred over 10 years ago

People’s sense of moral outrage is completely fucked up.

It is asymmetric warfare conservatives use.

If you’ve got a block of Americans (liberals) who will by and large always demand blood for this stuff and then a block of Americans who express selective “outrage” for political reasons and only against liberal targets while ignoring heinous behavior of ones “on their team”, then in the linger run we are truly fucked.

Something has got to change.

[George II]

63. So you're insinuating that something Reid "may or may not have said" 10+ years ago....

....is to blame for children killing themselves?

I never thought I would read something like this on Democratic Underground.

[workinclasszero]

65. Pure insanity

Strong voices for the rights of all including gay folks must be silenced so the actual oppressors of gays, PoC, and woman can be elected!

It makes perfect sense, no?

[JCanete]

105. This person is saying that homophobia, and particularly homophobia brought to you by our media

institutions and their hired personalities has absolutely had a negative impact, and Joy Reid has bee a part of that even if you just take the comments she's already acknowledged. If it turns out she said these things, that only makes her footprint slightly bigger, but its an ugly footprint.

I agree that you certainly can't take any person out of that and blame it all on them(although we do that all the time here when it comes to anybody who voted for Trump or Stein), because people are never just the problem, sometimes they are the symptom of it as well.

And I agree that what people said over 10 years ago should not condemn them, though if you look at posts going down, so does the OP. The op's main beef is that Reid has potentially concocted an out so that she doesn't have to take responsibility.

Are you suggesting though, that institutionalized homophobia has had no toxic consequences? When kids look around and not only are they made into monsters by the right, but they are disgusting to big chunks of the left as well, well where is their safe harbor? I know that some of the most marginalized and least supported groups are LGBQT people of color, who have had precious few people of color in the media to reflect them let alone those with any of their orientations in the past decades.

[George II]

106. Not really:

"LGBT kids literally kill themselves thanks to the logic of one of the posts Reid may or may not have posted."

[JCanete]

107. "thanks to the logic of"...right there in black and white

[George II]

108. Yes, ALL right there in black and white:

"LGBT kids literally kill themselves thanks to the logic of one of the posts Reid may or may not have posted."

[JCanete]

109. That logic is not Joy Reid's alone though. She didn't come up with that logic. She certainly is not

the only one to have espoused it.

The poster didn't say "thanks to Joy Reid"...the poster said "thanks to the logic". Thanks to the logic of one of the posts is pretty obviously, not suggesting that kids specifically came and read that post, and then committed suicide.

[MrsCoffee]

86. This OP won't age well either.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

87. Joy causes suicides? I doubt that.

[dsc]

88. kick

won appeal

[George II]

89. You kick your own dubious OP? How about posting some backup for what you're accusing....

....Joy Reid of doing?

[yardwork]

91. I agree with you. The words are indefensible.

[David__77]

92. Edit.

I had said that people could explore Wayback machine for themselves. Then I noticed that the link I had browsed now generates an error: https://web.archive.org/web/20060501000000*/https://blog.reidreport.com

It seems likely to me that whoever it is that has access to her old blog has intentionally blocked wayback machine by using the method described here: https://www.telapost.com/wayback-machine-error/

I think it's a bit too late for that.

[NatBurner]

99. joy reid killed my kung fu teacher :(

five finger death punch (with french tips)

[FreeState]

100. Same as it ever was DSC

The homophobia here is stifling.

[LostOne4Ever]

101. Thank you for standing up against homophobia! Nt

[MFM008]

102. Joy Reid

Ate my cat.

[JCanete]

103. I think that's a valid point, without wading into whether or not Joy said what she said.

Lets assume somebody did. You cannot get to a just society if you don't give people room to grow and learn from their mistakes. You cannot get there because one side will attempt to appeal to the lowest hanging fruit and will not give a shit, nor will that side's constituents, whether they are being insensitive or whether or not their rhetoric is resulting in demonstrable harm, while the other will continuously have to go searching for that perfect person who has never been wrong and has never had to grow on issues, and in the mean-time this side will continue to eat its own. The reality is people think stupid shit...if they are brave on the left they might even chance saying stupid shit(again...on the right saying stupid shit is your bread and butter)....or to be fair, if they were not brave and just wanted to speak in the safety of the current climate. But there has to be some space to take what people say in context of the times and their own journeys.

Now I am typically not personally at risk from the pain and suffering caused by feeding into marginalization, so that's easy for me to say, and I think it is unfair to tell others how gracious they should be when its them who have been most assaulted by the lack of grace in society, but personally, I believe in forgiveness and in people's capacity to change. I believe that for the most part people want to be good. They just don't always know what harm they are causing, and maybe they are too wrapped up in their own personal daily struggles and pursuits and unexamined dogmas to give it much of a thought. These are opportunities for them to give their prior actions and words some thought. Few people are irredeemable. And we can make them stronger allies, wiser, weathered allies by not simply discarding them when they fail us.

[dsc]

104. I honestly don't know how I would have responded to the counterfactual

of her taking responsibility for this and apologizing. I would like to think I would be willing to forgive, but it would be hard to watch her on tv and forget she said this. But on top of the words we have the pretty much certain fact she is lying and not taking responsibility. The lying is taking place now. The lack of taking responsibility is taking place now. With the latest take down from the Daily Beast we are approaching believing in the hack being the equivalent of denying the moon landing took place.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/claims-by-joy-reids-cybersecurity-expert-fall-apart?ref=home

[JCanete]

110. Yes, point taken. We should probably still wait til the verdict is in, even if that verdict seems

pretty obvious as to whether she has done this though.

[Blue_Tires]

111. I'm not saying it is okay

I'm saying we shouldn't swallow this obvious orchestrated bait, engineered into an outragegasm to get Joy off the air...