Rosary beads are being confiscated from undocumented immigrants and refugees.

[pnwmom]

Why is Customs and Border Patrol doing this? Because they can.

Link to tweet

?lang=en

[Ilsa]

1. Denying them the opportunity to practice their faith?

Are the beads dangerous in some way that isn't apparent to my untrained eyes?

[Ms. Toad]

12. Virtually all personal items are confiscated

when immigrants are taken into custody.

These photos are from a collection of photos taken by a janitor at a detention camp prior to 2015 (i.e. they have nothing - specifically - to do with Trump)

[lpbk2713]

2. Fuggen idiots.

They represent Trump. Gotta hand it to them for that.

[oberliner]

3. This is from 2015

What garbage at a US Border Patrol facility reveals about the migrant journey

October 09, 2015 · 1:00 PM EDT

Tom Kiefer worked as a janitor and groundskeeper at the US Customs and Border Protection processing facility in Ajo, Arizona.

It’s about 40 miles from the US-Mexico border and it’s where migrants detained by agents at the border await their next step in their either successful or failed journey to the United States. Many will face deportation back home, mostly to Mexico or parts of Central America.

It was sometime in the fourth year when Kiefer, a photographer, started noticing — and photographing — trends among the items tossed into the trash at the holding facility. Like being processed at jail, migrants are stripped of their personal belongings.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-10-09/what-garbage-us-border-patrol-facility-reveals-about-migrant-journey

[Kingofalldems]

4. Knew that was coming.

[oberliner]

5. Here is some more information about those photographs

El Sueno: An Americano Project

https://www.lensculture.com/articles/tom-kiefer-el-sueno-an-americano-project

They are fascinating and heartbreaking.

[Kingofalldems]

6. I do believe you have already posted this numerous times.

And don't you have some OPs on this subject?

I really don't understand the duplicate posting.

[oberliner]

10. One other time

And no OP on the subject. Though I would encourage people to check out the photos. Have you had a chance to do so yet? If so what are you thoughts and reflections?

[Ms. Toad]

16. Do you have a better solution to combat fake news

when liberals are spreading it?

When posts flat out state (or imply) that images represent new Trump atrocities or policies, they should be corrected. This is not a matter of a difference of opinion. It is a matter of trying to make sure that liberals are not doing the same thing we've been accusing the republicans of: peddling fake news.

Yes the rosaries were confiscated at the border. The implication when you post a thread here without a date is that it is a current story (and there is at least one other thread which says this is a new trump policy). It isn't. It is a policy that began no later than the Obama administration - and these photos predate the Trump administration. We ought not to be suggesting (by omission) that they are the result of Trump's handiwork. It will come back to bite us.

[George II]

36. What is fake about the OP? It's all true.

Why are you sticking up for trump even though he wasn't even mentioned in the OP?

[Ms. Toad]

39. I'm not sticking up for Trump, I'm sticking up for integrity.

That particular story and image is being widely circulated among liberals as more proof of Trump's evil.

That article that has already shown up on DU (and elsewhere) . within the last 24 hours as evidence of Trump's evil (Unless you seriously think someone one DU is calling Obama evil.

If you repeat viral fake news (which an old story that was accurate when written, but which is being perpetuated as something else is), and you leave off the date- you should expect to be challenged as perpetuating the viral fake news.

From the reactions in this thread, it is clear that most believed it to be a new story about Trump. It takes all of a sentence to caution readers that this is not a current story.

[Demsrule86]

49. More Obama hatred I think.

I have noticed a an effort to destroy Obama's legacy on this site and other supposedly progressive sites...This began during the Bush era...so who knows if the rosaries are recent or not. Have you seen the efforts made by some here to blame Pres. Obama for the situation with the kids...this only helps Shitler. And we all know the president sets the tone...I am sure it is very very cruel now.


"One day in 2007, he was rummaging through these bags looking for packaged food, which he’d received permission to donate to a local pantry. In the process, he also noticed toothbrushes, rosaries, pocket Bibles, water bottles, keys, shoelaces, razors, mix CDs, condoms, contraceptive pills, sunglasses, keys: a vibrant, startling testament to the lives of those who had been detained or deported. Without telling anyone, Kiefer began collecting the items, stashing them in sorted piles in the garages of friends. “I didn’t know what I was going to do,” he told me recently. “But I knew there was something to be done.”

[oberliner]

50. Obama hatred?

This is something you really believe?

[Demsrule86]

54. yes. I have seen the post here...not saying you.

MY favorite was the one that breathlessly pointed out that children went missing under the Obama administration...as if Obama were ripping families apart. These were unaccompanied minors and were mostly put into the custody of family members (they didn't fear deportation as much and came forward) but some were put in the custody of HHS. But the key is they were unaccompanied not being ripped from the arms of their mothers and fathers in a new policy formulated by Trump and Sessions-not Pres. Obama ....oh and the children's bus pictures ( which was used to take kids places) ...it was shown implying that Obama had such a policy as Trump does now which he did not. Some it seems (again not saying you ) apparently hate Pres. Obama more than Shitler...can't understand that. There are other posts as well. Shitler blames Pres Obama and some immediately chime in agreeing which I find shocking and troubling. Personally, I will write nothing that helps Shitler anywhere for any reason especially not on this site...and the 'they all do it too' cost us the 16 election and this meme should have been abandoned by all progressives by now.

[oberliner]

56. I respectfully disagree

I think it's OK to point out that things have been bad on the border for a long time, including during the Obama administration, without attributing that to Obama hatred. That should not in any way take away from the fact that what Trump is doing currently is monstrous.

[Demsrule86]

58. But that is not what you did really...you didn't even mention the fact that the policy was in place

during the Bush years...which implied that Trump was following a procedure begun by President Obama which is untrue. Do you think it is helpful to cloud an issue like this? I think it gives Trump a pass and leads to the 'they all do it shit' that cost us the 16 election. At the moment, this issue is resonating with American voters and even some GOP elected. Perhaps some good will come of it, but not if we give Trump a pass and help him blamed Pres. Obama for his evil actions. We must not provide Trump with any cover or help him in destroying Pres. Obama's legacy or help him to blame Democrats for his actions and policy.

[Demsrule86]

48. I must applaud your willingness to defend this practice. I mean it makes it so different that

the storm troopers known as ice take everything from undocumented men, women and children before imprisoning them or in the case of children selling some to sex traffickers... why it is not just religious items, but everything... any religious items that might offer comfort of course but they take it all...this makes it so much better really. Why what was the OP thinking to condemn this practice as if it was a standalone practice...so different really...Also, the janitor began documenting such confiscation during the Bush administration. I am sure Shitler and Republicans would agree with your take. It must be the Democrats fault I guess as usual.

[George II]

31. Yep, it fits the pattern doesn't it?

[pnwmom]

7. The article was written in 2017, when the practice was continuing. And if they could do this

during previous administrations, imagine what a President Trump has implicitly or explicitly authorized them to do.

[oberliner]

8. The New Yorker article is about Tom Kiefer's photos which he published in 2015

He doesn't work at the border anymore, as the New Yorker piece mentions, but he does fear that "new cruelties" are happening now under Trump due to his anti-immigration invective (sadly, probably true).

That said, the rosaries in the photo were collected over a period of time before Trump was president.

[pnwmom]

11. So? Trump is President now. He's responsible now. n/t

[George II]

33. Amazing how some dismiss things like this as "it didn't start under trump", etc.

[pnwmom]

38. It's almost as if he hasn't been President for more than a year. Either that,

or they're driven to excuse him for some reason.

[George II]

40. It's the same old, same old...including the participants. And we wonder why we can't win elections.

[Ms. Toad]

43. It has nothing to do with excusing Trump

The images you posted were published by October 2015, at the latest. There is nothing Trump could have done to prevent that collection of rosary beads from being confiscated (or the fenced in children, or the color-coded bracelets which have each - including the rosary beads - been directly attributed to some new, evil, policy by Trump).

While it is true that he has not reversed the policies of prior administrations, you could have easily added a sentence explaining what an outrage it is that Trump has not reversed the policies he inherited. But instead you chose to remain silent and repost a story that you found precisely because it was being virally circulated to condemn trump for new atrocities (not for failure to reverse ones he inherited).

[pnwmom]

45. Every single day more and more people are affected by his policies. He doesn't get to say,

"but Obama did it first!" That doesn't work for me, anyway. Obama's not President anymore and border patrol police are still collecting rosary beads.

But Obama, unlike DT, was never trying to whip up hate against undocumented people. And his policies were focused on deporting people who had committed crimes in the US, not families living peacefully.

Obama gets the benefit of the doubt because he clearly was trying to help undocumented people in the US and their families. DT doesn't, because all he wants to do is scapegoat them.

[Ms. Toad]

46. My comments have NOTHING to do with whether he gets to say Obama did it first.

They have to do with reposting a viral inflammatory image that that is currently expressly being used to pump up outrage about a new evil thing Trump is doing, even though the photographs were not taken while Trump was president, and there is no evidence I can find that CPB has ever collected rosaries under Trump.

You continue to assert that there is nothing misleading in how you have used this article. It's pretty obvious to me, since it is part of a viral use of this article to suggest this is some new atrocity by Trump. But you apparently don't want to do this the easy way.

So let's take the article, and your use of it, and go through it the hard way.

Your caption is written in the present tense: "Rosary beads are being confiscated from undocumented immigrants and refugees." Throughout this discussion you repeatedly insist that it is now Trump's policy - and that your OP merely suggests that even if he didn't start it, he is now responsible for fixing it; that the image is merely (apparently) a visual illustration of a rosary confiscation policy that Trump is continuing.

There are multiple problems with that.

First, the article says absolutely nothing about the practice of confiscating personal articles continuing, nor have you provided any other support for the proposition that it does. So the article itself does not support the present tense you used in your caption.

The article was written in 2017, but the photographer left his job with CPB in 2014. Nothing in the article discusses the current practices of CPB. The ONLY reference to Trump is in the last paragraph: the photographer's speculation about how his former colleagues would respond to Trump. The only present tense reference to the confiscation of personal items are the photography captions - which are part of the photograph collection, written in 2015, at the latest, when these photographs were published. Compare the caption on the tuna cans here with this, from the photographer's page) I.e., they were present tense in 2015; past tense now.

I'm fairly confident that general collection of personal things is actually continuing - but I can't specifically document it with a quick search (the closest I can come is this 2015 document, which dictates that all personal belongings be inventoried and held for 30 days, and thereafter destroyed - consistent with my understanding of the current practice). I would be surprised if you could find any support at all for the inflammatory assertion that ICE is (specifically) confiscating rosaries under Trump's watch, since there was never a specific order to confiscate rosaries- they were merely some of the many personal belongings confiscated upon entry into detention.

That, in and of itself, makes your OP misleading for another reason - since your OP says rosaries, specifically, are (present tense) being confiscated. Nothing, other than speculation, supports that. I await further documentation on that point from you.

If you hadn't been so insistent that that you were merely using an old set of photographs to illustrate an ongoing practice by the Trump administration, I never would have reviewed the article closely enough to find out that even that assertion that the practice is ongoing isn't supported by the article.

Again - I have absolutely no problem with criticism of Trump. It is not about refraining from criticizing Trump. At all.

What I care about is not making a**es of ourselves by engaging in the same careless relationship with the truth that the jerks on the other side have.

[pnwmom]

47. I didn't say or imply that DT ordered specifically for rosary beads to be confiscated.

He's continued the policy of confiscating EVERYTHING that someone thinks might pose a danger or is non-essential -- even something as essential to religious Catholics as rosary beads. With all the hate talk that DT has been directing against refugees, the border patrol agents have every reason to enforce the policies even more drastically than they did with Obama.

You think it matters that the photo of those particular rosary beads was made during the Obama years. I don't. It's a symbolic image made then that is just as true today. Its purpose is to paint a picture of how these people's lives continue to be affected. There's no realistic chance that the border patrol guards who were taking rosary beads during Obama's time have suddenly stopped during DT's Presidency. The only difference is that no one is photographing them anymore.

[oberliner]

57. Why not post an article detailing what is happening now under Trump?

Instead of one that is about what happened while Obama was POTUS.

[Demsrule86]

51. And some confiscated before Pres. Obama was president...perhaps we should note that. I am sure

President Trump is a stand up guy and all.

[George II]

30. Does that make it acceptable?

[Ms. Toad]

9. This image was taken before 2015

Please be careful not to imply by omission that this is the result of a new Trump atrocity.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/cnnphotos-american-dream-mexico-migrants-items/index.html

Publication date 10/26/2015

[pnwmom]

13. Whenever this image was taken, it's a continuing atrocity and it's up to Trump to fix it.

He took a bad situation and made it worse. I'm past the point of worrying what I might have implied by omission.

[Ms. Toad]

17. As to this matter (collection of personal matters), what did he do to make it worse?

You might want to consider that Breitbart has (legitimately) picked upon liberals spreading the pictures of the Obama-era detention facilities as fake news. This isn't much different. Giving them ammunition is not a smart move.

Integrity matters - and it takes only a few seconds to clarify in your OP when the photos were taken, and that you believe it is his obligation to fix the continuing problem. (That I can support wholeheartedly - our atrocious immigration policies are something I have been working against or years.)

[pnwmom]

22. He's made it worse with dozens if not hundreds of statements equating undocumented immigrants

to criminals.

This would encourage even more mistreatment by CBP people who are leaning in that direction.

[B2G]

18. Were you aware this was happening under Obama?

If not, have you asked yourself why?

[pnwmom]

41. Yes, there were lots of articles about it. And also lots of people criticizing Obama for being too

lenient, mocking his more humane polices as "catch and release." Trump promised to make it even worse for undocumented people, and so far he's carried out his promises.

[hexola]

42. I think we always knew Obama was deporting people

But - since his tone was completely the opposite of Trump - anomalies didn't seem as much like atrocities...

Consider the right has been anti-immigration long before Trump - (look what they did to McCain over immigration)

They really had NOTHING to gain by calling Obama out over immigration atrocities - and they would risk being taken as being pro-immigration by their base.

So some of this stuff might have been hibernating - and now making an uncomfortable re-appearance.

[Demsrule86]

52. Let's be clear, it began under Bush...so I would really appreciate it if people would remember that.

[Demsrule86]

55. Were you aware this was happening under Bush? If not have you asked yourself why?

Obama was as great president...and nothing anyone can post or say will change that.

[Cha]

14. :(

[guillaumeb]

15. Part of dehumanizing the enemy.

Recommended.

[Ms. Toad]

19. Be aware that this collection of photographs

Last edited Tue May 29, 2018, 12:16 AM - Edit history (1)

was all taken from 2003-2015, several years before Trump had anything to do with CPB.

While the practice continues, it is not something he initiated.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/cnnphotos-american-dream-mexico-migrants-items/index.html (Publication date 10/2015)

[hexola]

20. Right wing Christians hate Catholics

Unspoken marching orders - for sure - it didn't take Trump to get this going.

[Ms. Toad]

25. These were NOT confiscated under Trump.

The photograph was taken no later than 2015, before Trump was elected.

Virtually all personal belongings were collected, and discarded if not requested back within 30 days after confiscation. One of the reasons the items were discarded was that many people are detained longer than 30 days, so their items were discarded before they were released.

The photographer worked at one facility between 2003 and 2014 as a janitor retrieved discarded items from the trash and photographed them. The article from which this was taken was published in October 2015.

[hexola]

26. Understood...

I might be laying it on a little thick in that last post...

[Ms. Toad]

32. I was responding to the

"it didn't take Trump to get this going," which implied to me that you thought they were confiscated as a result of a new Trump-hates-Catholics policy.

[hexola]

37. No - I was going for a broader indictment of right wingers

But - perhaps taking that a bit too far, maybe.

Not a policy - its just how they are.

[RestoreAmerica2020]

44. Viva Christo Rey! US gov,protestants/kkk aided anti-catholic movement in Mexico by facist

president. Over 90, 000 soldiers and peasants died in war between church goverment. Church clergy, soldiers and peasants were deemed martyrs and received sainthood. US Knights of Columbus supported peasants, rebels (as did Rome nd US catholics) sending funds to support rebels; protected remains of those martyred, which were later held in San Antonio. Thousands of Christeros sought refuge in United states fearing persecution fled to United States, then disbursed thoughout the Country absorbed by the Hispanic (Spanish, Mexican) community already here since early 16th century, prior to plymoth rock.

Fascinating, intriguing history of two countries, USprotrstant hatred of Catholics and what happens when facist government oppresses its citizens; people were killed for attending mass, churches were closed, mass was offered in private homes...priests were killed for giving mass, sacraments. What happens when a fascist regime attempts to control its people? The peasantry rebels! Their battle cry, to the death..Viva Christo Rey! My question to republikkklan (aka democratic party at the time] Catholics belong to a party that hates, is racist...wait, I know the answer-- because they are racists and bigots too...and, will belong to party, that is, until GOP, protestants, evangelicals decide they don't need or want Catholics in US.

Here are some historical facts:

Period: 1926 – 1929 Mexico’s Forgotten Pain: The Persecution of Catholics and the Cristero War

The Cristero War or Cristero Rebellion, also known as La Cristiada, was a widespread struggle in many central-western Mexican states against the secularist, anti-Catholic and anti-clerical policies of the Mexican government.

[World Atlas - Maps, Geography, travel
SOCIETY]
Snip
What Was the Cristero War?
The Cristero War was a movement against policies of the Mexican government. It is also called the Cristero Rebellion.

What Was the Cristero War?
The Cristero War was fought between the church and state.

The Cristero War (Cristero Rebellion or La Cristiada) took place between 1926 and 1928 in most central-western Mexico States against Mexican government’s anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, and secularist laws. President Plutarco Elías Calles enforced the laws (Calles Laws) in 1917 following the constitutional provisions to eliminate powers of the Catholic community and its institutions together with other religious celebrations. The rebellion was popular in rural areas and had the support of the Catholic Church. La Cristiada was a major struggle between the church and state.

Background
During the Mexican revolution that took place from 1910-1920, the Catholic Church and state made an informal agreement not to implement anticlerical articles of the 1857 constitution. After the change of the country’s leadership, northern revolutionaries targeted the Catholic Church with violent anticlericalism. The new regime strengthened anticlerical criminal laws in 1926 and enforced them because the state felt that the Church was too powerful. The widespread peasant revolts on land rights in Catholic majority regions at the time also led to a ban on religious celebrations, thus initiating conflicts that killed thousands fighting for religious freedoms. Both the Catholic and government groups engaged in unconventional terrorist like attacks throughout the war.

[kcr]

21. I don't think anyone is claiming nothing horrible existed before Trump

What Trump is doing is elevating them to a whole new level. At any rate I'm not sure why it's suddenly not allowed to mention anything pre-Trump or you're accused of spreading fake news. All of the horrible policies continue under Trump with new Trumpy goodness added. These "fact checks" are bullshit.

[Ms. Toad]

28. Don't be disingenuous.

No one has suggested that things pre-Trump can't be talked about.

But when stories and photos are going viral both in DU and elsewhere, among liberals who flatly state, or imply, that they represent Trump's atrocities or new policies under Trump, and then that same photo or story is posted here either flatly attributed to Trump - or without a date or explanation that it is a pre-Trump story or photo, it is pretty clear that it is part of the viral fake news using photos and stories to represent something other than what they are.

Children in pens (flat out attributed to Trump)- Trump's Amerika: First glimpse of immigrant children at holding facility - now deleted by the OP after realizing it did not represent Trump's Amerika

Rosaries:
There is literally NO LIMIT to their evil!!. US is confiscating rosaries of immigrants at border!!! (implied to be by Trump, unless someone on DU is suggesting Obama is evil)

Yellow wristbands:
Trump has just begun forcing detained immigrants to wear yellow insignias

Yellow bracelet 2 (now modified - but the bracelet has NOTHING to do with immigrants, and the color-coded bracelets began in 2008, at the latest). When it was last active, people were responding to the "I would wear one," even after the OP was changed to acknowledge that the bracelet was not an immigration bracelet.

You are absolutely correct that our immigration policies were bad before Trump - and that he has made them worse. But it is important to be honest about the the date of story or photos.

It's not about comparing Trump's policies to Obama's - or about forbidding discussion of anything pre-Trump. It is about integrity. Don't state or imply that something is other than what it is.

[Demsrule86]

53. But it would have been nice had you noted as the article clearly states that this was first

documented under Bush.

[pnwmom]

23. It's up to Trump to fix it NOW, but instead he's no doubt making it worse,

by encouraging the haters.

[Ms. Toad]

29. No argument there.

My only concern is the misleading use of photos to suggest that these photos (or stories) are the result of Trump policies.

[guillaumeb]

24. I understood that. But thank you. eom

[Ms. Toad]

34. Just to be sure you know -

these particular rosaries were confiscated while Obama was president.

[C Moon]

35. I know. I tried to delete that. It didn't take. Thanks! Will delete now.

A terrible thing, whoever was President.