No, Samantha Bee's vulgarity isn't equivalent to Roseanne Barr's racism

[ehrnst]

Being foul-mouthed is not the same as a white person calling a black person an ape, or a Jewish Holocaust survivor a Nazi.

It’s sad that I need to explain this, but being racist and spreading anti-Semitic propaganda is worse. Much, much worse.

Why? Because Barr’s comments belittle an entire race of people and help spread paranoid fear of a Jewish global order. Dehumanizing entire groups of people as such puts them in danger of violent reprisal, and helps to justify the stripping of their civil rights.

There is no such inherent threat in Bee's vulgarity. Rather, equating crudeness with Roseanne's outlandish tweets normalizes racism and anti-Semitism.

That the White House would issue a full-throated condemnation of Bee while the president offered a dog-whistling defense of Barr speaks volumes.

Liberals have no problem turning on their own when they deserve it. See Kathy Griffin, Al Franken, Aziz Anzari, Lena Dunham … the list goes on.

This is not one of those cases.

Besides, if conservatives genuinely think dropping the C-bomb on TV is a firable offense — and they aren’t just culture war trolling — there’s a big fat target for their ire sitting in the White House.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/la-ol-enter-the-fray-dear-conservatives-having-a-potty-mouth-1527790128-htmlstory.html

[dhol82]

1. I do have a problem with liberals turning on the above mentioned people

Not a good choice.

[ehrnst]

9. I think that it's meant to illustrate that liberals do not simply give liberals

a pass, and sometimes even go overboard. But no, I don't think they deserved it.

On the other hand, conservatives REGULARLY defend misogyny, racism and homophobia from their own.

[dhol82]

26. True.

[JI7]

2. None of those deserved it.

[Zoonart]

3. Exactly!

Vulgarity is NOT equivalent to racism. It is really disappointing and kind of terrifying that people in our own DU community don' t seem to get this.

It is IMHO, this very disconnect that enables the Russian bots to divide us. Putin knew this about America and has exploited it to destroy our Republic.

[LiberalLovinLug]

30. +1000

[Exotica]

59. so right!!!

I am seeing the same response.

I am inter-sectional in this (I am both a woman and part black) and racism is a far bigger and impactful problem.

[Zoonart]

63. Yep...

I am from a totally blended family, religiously and ethnically. I am a white woman who is a Buddhist, married to a Quaker, with a Jweish daughter-in-law and two beautiful beautiful Jewish granddaughters and a black brother-in-law.
Racism is an issue we confront often.

[walkingman]

4. If the Trump tribe doesn't want criticism then do not be part of the administration. The entire

family seems to be part of the MOB.

[KansasKali]

5. I don't entirely agree with you.

Calling a woman a name like bitch or cunt is dehumanizing to her and to all women.

[ehrnst]

6. If it's a feminist comedian doing it, in a political context, then no

it's not demeaning all women.

Intent and context matters.

Do you think that this belongs on DU? If not, why?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210679478

[RandomAccess]

17. Nope

Used in public, it's demeaning and dehumanizing to all women, no matter the context. Like the N word, the C word should never be used. Never.

Let me say more about the dehumanization. The word's true ugliness and harm stem from the fact that it uniquely equates and reduces any woman, all women, to their sexual parts, objectifying them in a way most other words or insults cannot begin to match. To the women who are offended by it at all (some women aren't, for whatever reason), it is the very worst of the ugly gender slurs. It's irredeemable.To me, it is misogyny epitomized.

[ehrnst]

20. So, do you think that this DU post is equally unacceptable?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210679478

If not, why?

And what do you think about Gays displaying the pink triangle?

[RandomAccess]

24. What do you think?

Is it something you favor?

I'll answer your stupid question, but it's the only one I'll answer because I find the practice of asking questions like this objectionable, at least as I've seen it practiced recently.

I'd personally rather NOT see it, but there is absolutely no equivalence at all. The thread you pointed to shows the Republicans or at least Trump supporters showing their own assess and misogynist bigotry. It's not MY side of the political spectrum using misogynist, dehumanizing language. Frankly, IMO that OP is another potent argument for why the left should never allow or tolerate it amongst themselves.

[ehrnst]

25. But there it is - the C word, on DU.

I'm illustrating that the context matters greatly - as much as the word itself.

My question is "stupid?". You answered it didn't you? What does that say about you?

[RandomAccess]

27. Okay, then

The CONTEXT YOU thought made it okay for Samantha Bee to say that, didn't make it okay. In fact, I can't think of any other context that would make it okay.

I'm editing this post because the REAL difference only occurred to me after I posted it.

The word should never be used in public. Just like the N word should never be used in public. In the thread you pointed to, it wasn't being used. It was being shown -- and shown to demonstrate the misogyny of the rightwing.

[ehrnst]

31. It's not OK because you decided it isn't OK?

You, who doesn't get her comedy to begin with?

[RandomAccess]

34. I edited my previous post

[John Fante]

55. How is it any worse than referring to a man as an "asshole"

or "prick"?

I can think of a million misogynistic words to describe women. The "c" word, as foul as it is, is not among them.

[RandomAccess]

68. There are no words on the planet

that can add to or cause the oppression of men as a class or even as individuals -- unless those men are PoC.

Misogynist terms, sexist words, sexist jokes and cartoons, ALL add to the oppression of women.

[John Fante]

72. If Samantha had referred to Ivanka as a "piece of shit"

would that have been okay with you? Because that's the context in which Samantha used the "c" word. It had nothing to do with demeaning Ivanka's gender and everything to do with calling Ivanka out for being a horrible person.

[RandomAccess]

73. That would have been PERFECTLY okay with me

Because it's not a gender slur. Piece of shit doesn't demean her for BEING female and, by extension, all women for simply BEING female.

And what YOU think Samantha meant, even if that's exactly what she really meant (a piece of shit), it doesn't matter because that's not the actual meaning of the c word and no one would have ignored the real meaning in favor of piece of shit. If that's what she meant, that's what she should've said.

Simple: DON'T USE GENDER SLURS, even for horrible people.

[scarletwoman]

14. And you are...? nt

[lunatica]

33. No it isn't

I am a white woman. I not only do not feel dehumanized or even insulted by anyone using those words, but I’ve been known to use them myself when I get really upset. If they’re against me specifically I will fight back and you’re very likely not to come out of that fight unscathed. It won’t turn me into a withered victim.

First of all women call other women these names. It’s no worse than men or women calling a man a prick. It doesn’t dehumanize men.

Many women can hold their own and fight back when it comes to these small potato insults.

Racial and insults that are aimed at entire groups of people, on the other hand, are a different story.

[scarletwoman]

51. Exactly! Brava! nt

[Cha]

7. Not by a long fucking shot..

Link to tweet

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10679590

[Sherman A1]

8. My opinion

While I have no use whatsoever for Ivanka and her family, I think Ms Bee needs to be cancelled. I find her comments completely out of line.

[ehrnst]

11. For vulgarity? John Stewart had a gospel choir sing

"Go fuck yourself" to a politician.

People LOVED it.

Tell, me - have you ever watched her show?

[Sherman A1]

15. Yes, I have watched enough of her show

To know I do not find her to be at all entertaining and I believe that her comment was indeed over the line.

[ehrnst]

21. So you don't get her humor to begin with.

I see.

You are pre-disposed to thinking that her show has no value.

[Sherman A1]

37. I get her humor

this was a mean spirited, planned, direct personal attack that was completely over the top and completely unnecessary to make the point. Ms Bee makes her living using words and understanding their impact, that his her supposed expertise.

"I See"... You continue to fail to understand that and defend her....

[John Fante]

58. Ivanka deserves to be insulted.

She is a horrible human being.

[Sherman A1]

85. She may very well be as you describe

However, insulting her or anyone else gets you where? The message is lost in the insults and the person insulting another simply looks small as indeed they are. Take on ideas, disagree on policy, argue concepts, have a spirited debate on any topic, but start name calling and you lose.

[scarletwoman]

22. Let me see if I have this straight...

You don't find her "entertaining", so you're fine with the RW using her momentary vulgarity against us?

My opinion is, this is precisely why the RW continues to win. We refuse to defend our own if they somehow fail to pass our subjective purity tests.

Personally, I do my best to never miss her show. She's one of the sharpest and most incisive political commentators on TV. Plus, she's a woman - a true rarity in TV culture.

And if one woman calls another woman a cunt, I can live with it. It's a far different thing than a man calling a woman a cunt.

Samantha Bee is a valuable voice for the Left and I'm not about to throw her under the bus for a momentary lapse of taste.

[dhol82]

29. +1

[Sherman A1]

40. You have your version of this straight.

Ms. Bee makes her living using words and understanding their impact. That is her supposed expertise.

I believe that you are doing a great job of putting words in my mouth with "You don't find her "entertaining", so you're fine with the RW using her momentary vulgarity against us?" As I never said anything remotely resembling that statement or concept.

You like her fine, enjoy the show. I believe that her use of words in this case was nothing more than a mean spirited, vulgar, personal attack that detracted heavily from whatever point it was she was attempting to make as now the discussion is all about the use of one word. I think Ms Bee failed you, but you are entitled to whatever opinion you choose, just as am I.

[RandomAccess]

18. I agree it was over the line

but no way she should be canceled for it. No way in hell.

[Sherman A1]

19. We must agree to disagree

I stand by my opinion.

[yallerdawg]

10. Anyone who has been at DU for anytime knows the C word is not tolerated.

We can call the Dotard an orangutan as Bill Maher says, that is not a racist equivalency to Roseanne's insanity.

But, gawdamit - we can't change our tolerance for misogynistic hateful offensive language because someone on the 'left' says it about someone on the 'right.'

The C word has been functionally banned at DU - it's a real head-snapper to see it defended.

And trust me - I ain't no snowflake when it comes to language and left/right noblesse oblige, but C**T was virtually beaten out of us not too long ago.

If we don't demonstrate some kind of consistency, how can anyone tell the difference from them?

[ehrnst]

13. I think context matters. She's a feminist comedian

using it in a political context.

It's not like Ivanka is a housewife in private life. She is part of this administration, and complicit.

As the sentence that Sam used points out, her father listens to her, and she does NOTHING to help this country out by twisting daddy around her finger for us.

So, do you think that this doesn't belong on DU? It seems to be not only tolerated but getting many, many recs...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210679478

[scarletwoman]

28. Oh fer cripesakes, get over it!

No, it's not accepted to use the "C word" on DU, but that doesn't mean we have to freak out about anyone ever using anywhere.

There's such a thing as proportionality - and context!

It's the right wing that can't handle nuance - why would we want to be like them?

[yallerdawg]

35. I think your harsh language directed at me is totally uncalled for!

[scarletwoman]

45. What "harsh language"?

I didn't call you any bad names, did I?

[yallerdawg]

46. I don't know.

What's a "cripesake?"

[scarletwoman]

49. It's a way of saying "Oh, for Christ's sake" without directly "taking the name of Our Lord in vain."

I'm an escaped Catholic.

[dflprincess]

65. My dad used "for cripes sake"

and I picked it up from him.

[scarletwoman]

69. Yep, keeping it clean for the kids' ears.

[lunatica]

38. Samantha didn't use the word on DU. She used it in her show.

I don’t use that word here, but I would use it in my life outside of DU if I felt the need. Although I swear sometimes I don’t do it at people or to them.

[RhodeIslandOne]

61. Thank you

The rules of DU are not life.

[scarletwoman]

12. Thank you, Matthew Fleischer, for some common sense.

And thank you, ehrnst, for posting this.

I'm more than a little nonplussed to read some of the reactions here to Samantha Bee saying the dreaded "C word". Good fucking grief!

I'm not about to hit the damn fainting couch over one woman calling another woman a CUNT. It's a far different dynamic from a man using that word against a woman!

My ONLY regret is that Samantha gave the Right Wing Nut Jobs an opening to set up yet another false equivalence - something all of us need to avoid as much as possible.

So, I definitely wish Sam Bee hadn't said that - but NOT because I find it so absolutely pearl-clutchingly offensive. Only because it gave the RW an opening.

We need to stand strong and absolutely reject the false equivalence!

[ehrnst]

16. +1000. (nt)

[Docreed2003]

50. Excellent post! Well said...nt

[CatMor]

53. I completely agree with you.

[dflprincess]

75. Exactly! nt

[betsuni]

23. I'm surprised this has become such a big deal.

I watched the show and when I heard her say that, it didn't even really register because she was angry and worked up over immigration and it's Samantha Bee -- she can be harsh. Then I wake up this morning to outrage. She's a comedian. What the hell. If she loses her show over one word said in anger during a performance...

[scarletwoman]

32. It's pathetic. No wonder we lose hearts and minds.

Uptight, stick up the ass, correct to a fare-thee-well - I can't fucking stand it.

[betsuni]

39. Right there with you.

[scarletwoman]

42. Thank you. nt

[lunatica]

41. Oops!

Goddammit! Why are you using that fucking language around here?!

[scarletwoman]

43. I guess because I'll fucking use that fucking language if I fucking feel like it.

[lunatica]

44. It's like stringing pearls together isn't it?

It’s a fucking thing of beauty!

[scarletwoman]

47. I feel like a fucking poet!

[lunatica]

48. LOL!

Fuck! Me too!

[47of74]

52. Yeah me too.

I fucking hate these milquetoast types who will bend over backwards because they're afraid of what Republicans will think. FUCK that!

These are people who want us dead and we're quibbling over their feelings. FUCK that!

We need hard pipe hitting liberals who are not the least bit afraid of bringing a fucking Death Star to a Republican sling shot fight and not give a flying fuck in a shit bucket what these Republicans think.

[scarletwoman]

56. Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you!

It just fucking blows me away - how quick some on the supposed "left" are to throw their true, hard-working allies under the bus for one small slip out of absolute purity!

I honestly don't understand what kind of world these precious offense-takers live in! Do they not understand that our very existence as a progressive political force is at serious risk?

They want to rationalize losing a progressive WOMAN'S voice because she insulted another woman - a woman who is utterly complicit in the fascist takeover of our government?

This is fucking madness!

[RhodeIslandOne]

62. I'm not

Distract and deflect is a solid political strategy

[betsuni]

66. How effortlessly the Right becomes the PC snowflakes they accuse the Left of being.

No shame at all. So organized, soldiers marching together in their war on America.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

36. Yes

There's a mole in the Democrat System that starts these things maybe.

[Rorey]

54. Quoting myself

Barr based what she said on the person's race and what she perceived her heritage is. Samantha Bee based what she said on Ivanka's actions. That's a monumental difference in motive.

Barr deserves every bit of criticism she's getting. She's a POS.

[scarletwoman]

57. Thank you, I totally agree.nt

[mac56]

60. It's amazing what we do to ourselves.

Roseanne Barr compares a black woman to an ape, and says that the family of Holocaust survivors are actually Nazi sympathizers, and what does the right do? They take to the stockades to defend her.

Sam Bee calls Ivanka, another woman, by an unpleasant name, and what do we do? Tie ourselves up into knots about how horribly, horribly bad she was.

We have got to get over ourselves. We have got to quit stepping on our own dicks (oops, sorry, I may have offended someone). This is part of why the assholes win.

The stereotype of a liberal is someone who is so open-minded that he won't even take his own side in an argument.

[beachbum bob]

64. bee fucked up. trumps use everything to be the victim

Why walk into their trap?.... Why distract from Barr??...Bee deserves what comes her way.

We have to fucking smarter than this

[Initech]

67. It's not the foul language that offends the deplorables.

What offends them is when you take away their right to be assholes in public.

[Throck]

70. I use the HR barometer.

If it earns me a trip to HR I try not to say it too loud.

Too loud.

[SCVDem]

71. Let's not let the context get away.

This segment was about trumps border policy of separating parents from crying, hysterical babies, toddlers and bigger children.

As Carlin said, it's only a word. We give words power.

It was an attention getter to be sure.

[MRDAWG]

74. Rosanne attacked a race: Sam......

went after 0ne person.

[dflprincess]

76. And Sam went after that person

based on her behavior, not her gender.

[scarletwoman]

79. Exactly!

[TheFrenchRazor]

82. so if a black person "misbehaves," the N-word is okay? it's no wonder so many people think

racial slurs are OK, and aren't "really racist."

[meadowlander]

87. Everyone knows all bets are off if the person "deserves it"

Why bother with integrity or consistent personal standards of behaviour when you can feel the momentary joy of attacking someone with your internalised oppression on full display?

[meadowlander]

86. Using a slur that equates behaviour with gender...

[pintobean]

77. Tell that to NYC_SKP

[BobTheSubgenius]

78. A couple of points...

Of COURSE it is not the same as the slur Roseanne used. Not even in the same neighbourhood.

I try to never use words like that, out of respect for the audience. Said in front of me and like-minded people, I could not give a (PC term) of a rat.

Similar words - dick, dick-head, pussy - are used in conversation ALL THE TIME, so it is THAT word and that word alone (may be others, but none come to mind) that causes such an uproar.

While this incident seems to have crossed a bright line, the point can still be made, that...Full Frontal is Sam Bee! THIS is the first time she has ever made someone clutch their pearls...or not. I venture to say not. If that was the first time someone caught the show and was caught unawares and offended, I wonder where they have been.

That self-same word is defined in the OED as "an unpleasant or stupid person." Clearly, this is not a universally offensive word, even within the English language.

Finally, as a tip of the hat to Minnie Driver, I had to chuckle at this. In describing the incident, MD said that what she said was inappropriate, as Ivanka lacks both the depth and the warmth.

[scarletwoman]

80. "...Ivanka lacks both the depth and the warmth." Exactly! Thank you!

[TheFrenchRazor]

81. yes it is; women actually do count, regardless of who thinks otherwise, nt

[bettyellen]

83. Fucking correct!

[Gothmog]

84. K&R