My simple take on the Roseanne Barr / Samantha Bee comments the last two days:

[George II]

Actually it's Martin Luther King Jr.'s take:

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

Roseanne Barr's comment was about the color of Valerie Jarrett's skin

Samantha Bee's comment was about the content of Ivanka Trump's character.

[guillaumeb]

1. Insightful.

And correct.

[betsuni]

2. Yes!

[sheshe2]

3. Correct.

Thank you George.

I was just reading this.

What Barr tweeted was incontrovertibly racist, and it was appropriate that she was fired. By contrast, "cunt" in the context of Bee's monologue was just a vulgarism, from one woman to another. It's a vulgarism that appears on numerous Trump-related items. It's a word Trump White House guest Ted Nugent used years ago in reference to Hillary Clinton. It's a word that, in acronym form, was the name of an anti-Clinton organization formed by Trump pal Roger Stone during the 2008 campaign. It's a word Trump himself used in reference to former deputy attorney general Sally Yates, according to Michael Wolff's Fire and Fury.

http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2018/05/when-youre-fighting-thugs-be-ready-for.html

[Cha]

8. Thanks for that, she.

More good context.

[sheshe2]

11. The self proclaimed pussy grabber

now is shocked with the c word...he used the word, embraced it and now feigns outrage.



Cra, Cha.

[Cha]

12. Samantha Bee apologized to Ivanka Trump. Now it's time for Donald Trump

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[George II]

15. Bazinga!

[Cha]

18. IKR!

[sheshe2]

16. Woah.

That is an excellent tweet Cha...won't happen yet it sure as hell needs to be highlighted for the hypocrite that he and his are.

[Cha]

19. I know.. trump will never apologize.. Thank Goodness

for Mueller and the FBI investigating his slimyness.

[LittleGirl]

60. Forgot to the gold star family too! eom

[groundloop]

61. As well as John McCain (and many many more too numerous to list)

[LittleGirl]

63. Absolutely! eom

[geardaddy]

53. +1

[George II]

14. Precisely. No comparison between the two.

[Caliman73]

4. Agreed.

While I would have much preferred a word that is not a gender slur in America be used, I agree that the context and point of the insults make them very different from each other in terms of offense.

She could "feckless piece of shit" and that would have been golden.

[Anon-C]

5. By George I think you've got it!

[sheshe2]

17. Lol!

[Cha]

6. Well Done, George!

I love the way you framed that.

[NanceGreggs]

7. Well said! n/t

[Gothmog]

48. From MLK's daughter

Link to tweet

[George II]

56. Thanks. She gets it too!

[RandomAccess]

9. No, it was a gender slur

and as such harms all women ---

JUST AS ALL Trump's racial comments harm all PoC. You can't remove the harm from the word. It's just not possible. There are many other ways Bee could have made her otherwise important or valid point.

[scarletwoman]

21. No, the harm is not equivalent.

Just as black rappers using the "N-word" is not is not the same harm as white people using that word against African Americans, so too is a woman using the "C-word" to another woman, is not the same harm as a man using that word against a woman.

Samantha Bee is one of ours - we should not let the RW push us into throwing her under the bus.

[RandomAccess]

24. I'm not letting the rightwing push anything here -- how insulting of you to say so

or imagine that. AND I'm not suggesting she be thrown under the bus either.

I believe -- and she apparently agreed -- that the use of that word was a mistake.

And if you want to call your women friends cunts, you fucking go right ahead. But you g.d. better not use that word anywhere near me.

Just as black rappers using the "N-word" is not is not the same harm as white people using that word against African Americans,

Yeah, well, lotta people disagree, some of them the very people who once thought it was okay and tried to defend it in their own music.

so too is a woman using the "C-word" to another woman, is not the same harm as a man using that word against a woman.

Nope. It validates the word and gives tacit permission to others to use it. It also implies that women themselves don't really mind. And you simply cannot remove the inherent sexualized dehumanization from the word. It's impossible.

[scarletwoman]

27. Oh well. The word itself has never bothered me, only the context in which it's used.

Maybe it's because I long ago became a fan of Robert Burns' poetry and his humorous use of "cunny".

Or my etymological studies of the Indo-European origins of the word - "Kund" as in Kundalini. Or maybe because I was always a fan of cunnilingus.

Anyway, for whatever reason, I simply don't have any kind of gut-level emotional repugnance associated with the C-word. Certainly not in any way analogous to the gut-level repugnance I feel for racist language.

[RandomAccess]

29. You know, I can appreciate that

But what I don't understand is treating it dismissively as if there is no harm connected with that or other gender slurs.

THEY ARE DE-HUMANIZING, and de-humanization greases the wheels to dehumanizing behavior against us.

[PunkinPi]

45. I think Rebecca Traister explains the distinction well here...

...Language’s ability to inflict harm depends on the power of who’s wielding it and against whom it is being wielded. I’m not talking simply about the power of the individuals in question. For example, it’s not about the damage done by Samantha Bee to Ivanka Trump or Roseanne Barr to Valerie Jarrett, all of whom are individuals with various kinds of power. It’s not about them. Rather, it’s about considering the relative degrees of power of the entities and ideas that those individuals are representing.

So when Bee goes after Ivanka for her complicity with and support of a presidential administration that’s doing grievous harm to the bodies, families, and lives of human beings, Bee is acting on behalf of less powerful people (the immigrants whose children, including babies, are being taken away from them) and speaking out against the grotesquely powerful and abusive (the administration that is creating and enforcing this barbaric policy).

It is true that in her critique of Ivanka Trump, Bee used an expletive that is explicitly misogynistic; it is wholly reasonable to object to the word cunt for feminist reasons. It is also reasonable and worthwhile to consider why a term for female anatomy has become such a potent pejorative; why does a word that means vagina also mean “very bad person,”? That’s a valid question, but it’s crucial to consider it in this context. Bee was not reinforcing or replicating the crude harm that “cunt” has been used to inflict historically: the patriarchal diminishment and vilification of women. In fact, Bee was using it to criticize a woman precisely because that woman is acting on behalf of that patriarchy, one that systematically diminishes women, destroys families, and hurts children.
...
Look no further than the fact that Sarah Huckabee Sanders can say with a straight face that a comedian being mean to Ivanka Trump on television is “vile,” “vicious,” “appalling,” and “disgusting,” but she will never apply those apt descriptors to the administration she’s fronting for: one that is led by a man who brags about grabbing women by their pussies, calls human beings animals, and enacts policies that separate children from their parents in the name of keeping asylum-seekers out of the United States.

Words matter, and sometimes only the strongest ones will do the job.

https://www.thecut.com/2018/05/samantha-bee-ivanka-trump-full-frontal.html?utm_campaign=thecut&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1
___
bold for emphasis

Personally, I dislike the c-word, but see this instance as the difference between "punching down and punching up". YMMV

[RandomAccess]

46. I find it to be merely a rationalization. A clever one, perhaps, but still.

You CAN'T use the patriarchy's tools to dismantle it. That just strengthens it.

[babylonsister]

10. Bravo!! nt

[mcar]

13. Just right, George!

Thank you for this.

[world wide wally]

20. Best explanation yet.

[Roland99]

22. This!

[eggplant]

23. Can I repost this elsewhere?

Do you prefer attribution?

[George II]

26. Yes you can, but I don't need the credit....thanks for asking.

[lunatica]

25. That's my argument too

For example, do we get all upset if a man calls another man a prick?

Also, Samantha Bee’s show is late night for adults. It’s not for the entire family.

[spanone]

28. K&R...

[certainot]

30. which his why limbaugh attacked bee and made more excuses for barr

[mythology]

31. I may not have gotten an A in biology, but I'm pretty sure that's a body part

Bee's comment wasn't about Ivanka's character. It was a gender based slur. The defense of somebody because she insulted somebody you don't like is absurd. Was Trump talking about Megyn Kelly having blood coming out of her where ever a comment on her character?

The tribalism is just odd to me.

[Honeycombe8]

34. I agree. She crossed a line & has stated she did.

The C word is a derogatory slur used to refer to women and dehumanize them by referring to their privates only...as if that's all they are. It's worse than p***y.

She went too far...she could've made a joke and made her point w/o going there.

It's not as bad as Roseanne's use of the A word, because that was a whistle call to white supremacists and dates back to the beginnings of the KKK AND Roseanne had done it before AND a govt official was fired last year for referring to Michelle Obama that way. Conservatives know why the use the A word. Still, Bee went over the line.

[ProfessorGAC]

40. Because It Came From A Woman?

I would be in 100% agreement had that been said by a man.

Questioning Sam Bee's commitment to female empowerment is, however, ridiculous.

[DrDan]

41. exactly

[NurseJackie]

32. Perfect.

Thank you!

[NoMoreRepugs]

33. BOOM. Drop the frickin mic.

[catbyte]

35. Exactly. Thank you.

[Gothmog]

36. Great post-I agree

[brer cat]

37. Outstanding, George.

[lunamagica]

38. Great point, George!

[greatlaurel]

39. Well said. Thanks!

This needs to be the response to the right wing trolls.

[LanternWaste]

42. She's the shiny opportunity being used to deflect

She's the shiny opportunity being used to deflect any and all deeper discussion away from its more valid, relevant and germane topic. She's this weeks Whatabout?

I'm witnessing people who have consistently justified the use of sexist language, consciously skirted the line of sexism to see what can be gotten away with using trope-filled narratives and sentiments suddenly having a "I found Jesus" moment in regards to gender equality. I don't believe it for one second.

I'm not buying the self-righteous redemption routine. It's a bill of goods, and will blow away in the wind with the arrival of the next shiny opportunity that comes along.

[ehrnst]

43. On the head. (nt)

[PunkinPi]

44. Well said, K&R

[Gothmog]

47. From Joss Whedon

Link to tweet

[Bernardo de La Paz]

49. False equivalency between Barr and Bee:

Bee (wrongly) used a misogynistic word AGAINST a misogynistic racist regime.

Barr (wrongly) used a racist word SUPPORTING a misogynistic racist regime.

[Initech]

50. Roseanne's comments were ugly on multiple levels.

Samantha Bee's comment was ugly on just one level, and now that it's got Chump's attention I would expect that it will have the opposite effect of what Roseanne said!

[HenryWallace]

51. This is simple rationalization..

[dchill]

52. "... about the content of Ivanka Trump's character..."

Tests came back negative.

[MichMan]

54. The two were not the same

Barr's statement was made on social media via twitter.

Bee's was broadcast as part of her show

[democrank]

55. Whataboutism with a twist.

This isn't about Ivanka Trump's character or Roseanne Barr's racism. It's about Samantha Bee's use of "C_NT", a vile,misogynistic word. I won't make an excuse for her or try to make her choice of words less disturbing by turning the spotlight on someone else.

[Srkdqltr]

57. Both were equally ugly.

Both should be gone. Doesn't matter who was worse. Begone both.

[Wwcd]

58. K & R

[stuffmatters]

59. Perfect

[W T F]

62. In the style of Sarah Hucabbee Sanders's Modus Operandi.....

Bee's coment about Ivanka was "Bleeped" so we really don't know what she said.

[Mc Mike]

64. Terrific, thanks, G II. nt