US liberal Islamophobia is rising - and is more insidious than rightwing bigotry

[Soph0571]

When will Muslims step up and reform Islam?” asked the self-identified “progressive and intersectional” college student, following a presentation of my book, American Islamophobia: Understanding the Roots and Rise of Fear, at New York University.

The student wore a Black Lives Matter T-shirt and a colorful assortment of pins and patches on his camouflage backpack calling for “equality now” and claiming that “The future is female”. The young man, by way of verbal admission and the myriad of political statements he proudly wore, was a political progressive. And indeed, a representative of a swelling population of leftists who embrace progressive principles yet see Islam as inimical to liberal values and in conflict with American identity.
-----------------
Liberal Islamophobia is rising, in the United States and beyond, and rapidly metastasizing in the shadows while its tentacles on the right extend in the form of presidential rhetoric, state-sponsored travel bans and expanding surveillance. Yet, liberal Islamophobia may reveal itself to be more ominous than the bigotry trumpeted by Republican stalwarts and reactionary conservatives, particularly if we continue to ignore its uptick on television, college campuses, and liberal spaces beyond and in between.

[link:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/26/us-liberal-islamophobia-rising-more-insidious|

Very interesting article.....where is the balance?!

[RandiFan1290]

1. I think it's disgusting that the admins allow it on DU. nt

[LAS14]

16. Why? Which side of the discussion do you support? nt

[louis c]

52. I agree. The OP is spreading bull shit.

[leftynyc]

55. Funny how so many here

have no problem trashing Christianity all day long. Only Islam gets a pass. Why is that?

[louis c]

56. The article is not bashing Islam, it's bashing Liberals...

...you know, like us.

This is an appropriate post for Briebart.

[leftynyc]

59. I get that

And I think a major part of the problem, especially here in the US, is that liberals think all Muslims are all like the ones here in the US and they're not. "Our" Muslims are simply part of our melting pot and have a much better record of assimilation that they do in any other country. We've all seen the polls about what the Muslims in the middle east and Africa think about blasphemy (deserves death penalty), gays (should be illegal), terrorism is justified. American Muslims - the large majority of them - don't feel that way but since there is over a billion Muslims in the world, American Muslims represent a very tiny minority of them. I think that's the point Maher is trying to make.

[7962]

106. And thats a great point as well. nt

[Soph0571]

88. I disagree

A liberal Muslim is asking for other liberals to consider their optics. It is interesting how many people here have a problem with that. Maybe people should not be picking at the splinter in the writers eye when they obviously have a plank in their own. This article was published in the Guardian. Hardly as bastion of right wing thought.

I am witnessing a whole lot of people doing a knee jerk reaction to the headline rather then actually reading the content. Somewhat disappointing from this site of progressive thought and ideals.

[louis c]

99. I read the content and the headline matters

most people, especially our right wing friends just read the headline. As a result, the headline matters and does great damage.

So, I read the whole article, get the point, and 40% of the rest of America reads the headline and calls me an elitist for understanding the nuanced points in the longer article.

This article wasn't just written for DU readers. it was written for the general public.

The headline is damaging and that's why it shouldn't appear here.

[Eliot Rosewater]

102. I wish it would disappear, as you say. We are a "headlines" nation now and this shit hurts.

[Voltaire2]

2. This is the usual nonsense of "how dare you criticize islam"

Last edited Fri Jun 1, 2018, 08:06 AM - Edit history (3)

This is the canard that criticism of a deeply misogynistic religion is bigotry. It isn’t.

It is also the now tedious repetition of assorted out of context Maher and Harris quotes that, even out of context, don't support the thesis that "bad liberals" (and really the author means BAD ATHEISTS BAD) are worse than overt Islamophobia.

The left is saturated with pundits and self-styled public intellectuals who disseminate discourses that Islam is monolithic; that Muslims must choose between liberal principles and their faith,

Countering actual Islamophobia by rejecting all criticism of Islam is dangerously stupid. Islamic countries are routinely by law misogynistic. Many (not all!) consider women to be minors in the legal custody of either their husband or the male head of their family. Some form of Sharia law is enforced in many Islamic countries, and frequently that means that religious leaders have authority over or are the judges of the legal system. While in western countries muslim women may veil by choice (ignoring of course the social pressure within their communities to conform) there is no choice in many Islamic countries.

The only countries where homosexuality can be punished by execution are Islamic countries. Criticism that Islamic culture is deeply homophobic is not bigotry, it is a statement of fact.

[Soph0571]

3. Yeah putting the link in now

It is a very interesting article that raises some valid points but goes over the top on others IMO

[Demsrule86]

6. I don't find this what I consider a hit piece interesting. Condemning liberals while giving the

right wing a pass is spreading false information.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

8. Nothing in the excerpt talks about "giving the right wing a pass"?

Where did you pull that out of?

Are you going to alert the thread? That would be bogus.

[7962]

21. Good lord. its just amazing......

[Demsrule86]

30. The article which is in my opinion written so this guy can get on right wing TV (Fox)

and radio does exactly that. By the calling out the liberals while saying nothing about Trump's heinous policies does exactly that. These liberals are the real bigots not the good Trumpers. Anything that say Democrats and Republicans are the same hurts us...would have thought after 16, people would realize that.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

12. Yes, at least the excerpt seems to be tending to say that criticism is bigotry.

I didn't follow the link to read more.

It is a mistake to assume that any criticism is an attack aiming at destruction. Similarly in this thread we see a reaction in the opposite direction taking the same form: assuming a criticism of liberals & progressives is a vile destructive attack on them.

[7962]

22. Yes, we shouldn't "ask" them to stop female genital mutilation; its their culture!! UGH nt

[Major Nikon]

54. Maher attacks the religion, Trump attacks the people

Yet to the author, there’s no difference. Very telling that. Tolerance doesn’t require one to tolerate intolerance, regardless of which horse it rides in on.

[Bradshaw3]

105. Well said

[denbot]

4. Pfft.. It's us and not the Trumpanzee's who are the real racists, right Soph-whatever?

Jeeze, could this shit possibly be inspired and propagated by Putin’s minions? Could it have possibly escaped the majority of us DU’er’s that Bill Maher is an islamophobe..? And since Bill has an obvious flaw, we all own it!?!

Thanks for sharing your concerns here.

[Demsrule86]

5. So liberals are the threat? I see...I well remember when Pres. Obama shut down immigration from

Last edited Fri Jun 1, 2018, 08:28 AM - Edit history (1)

Muslim countries and refused Syrian refugees...oh wait that was Trump. This isn't true and was meant as an insult to Duer's and other liberals. The article which you posted for some reason also...feeds into the 'they all do it' meme...not helpful.

Update...I am forced to consider after reading some of these posts on a progressive website that the author may have a point.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. You are drawing the wrong conclusion from the OP.

Your posts in this thread seem to indicate that you think the liberal and progressive movement is pure and clean and has no faults and nobody in it should be criticized and nobody in it needs to improve. Just because some liberals have islamophobia (fact) does not mean that the OP is saying "liberals are the threat".

It is NOT the "they all do it" meme.

It is NOT meant as an insult to DU members.

Drop the binary thinking. It is not helping you.

[Demsrule86]

26. This a muddying the water...they are all the same sort of post...the last thing we need with

Trump and midterms coming. How could this guy not take on Trump and the GOP after what they have done in terms of Muslims and what they most like will do which is attack Iran. Sorry this is an article meant to cash in by bashing liberals. This guy wrote a book and is trying to sell said book...and what better way than to appeal to the right...'you are not the bigots why it is the 'liberals'...he will be all over Fox and will probably be posted on breitbart and every other right wing shit site. It shouldn't be post here in my opinion. I find it self serving and with no proof whatsoever of his premise.

[7962]

23. Jesus, thats NOT what this OP means at ALL.

Amazing.

[Demsrule86]

27. It is exactly what he meant.

[TimeSnowDemos]

7. Interesting, but..

.. Unsurprising.

Supporting party x doesn't make you a decent human. And the American left - while utterly and completely preferable to the American right - is not exactly hard left. Depending on the topic it ranges from pretty far left (some social issues) to extreme right (gun control, campaign finance, lobbying), so it doesn't surprise me that some of the American left is racist or islamaphobic at all.

And the reaction here is less than ideal, but unsurprising.

If the GOP is immoral and anti-American, then the left must be moral and pro-America. When it isn't, it's no surprise that some people would rather call it a Russian lie than look at it as an opportunity to make their own party better. Which is a shame.

[Demsrule86]

28. So now it is the 'centrist'...those meanies who foment revolution apparently and are hopeless

bigots.

[TimeSnowDemos]

32. What?

Not sure what you mean by that?

[Demsrule86]

39. I read you post...

"And the American left - while utterly and completely preferable to the American right - is not exactly hard left. "

[TimeSnowDemos]

68. Yes and

I mean I KNOW what I wrote.i just don't understand your response.

I can guess, but that seems likely to cause a misunderstanding, and who wants that?

If you don't understand what I wrote I'm happy to explain it.

[Lee-Lee]

9. There are many tenets of Islam and how it is practiced that are not compatible with liberalism

And saying that isn’t islamaphobic any more so than saying the same things about any other religion.

Treatment of women, the view of the woman’s role in society, tolerance of other belief systems, tolerance of a person right to choose a belief system (especially to leave the religion) and many other aspects of how the majority of practitioners of the religion believe and implement those beliefs are in fact incompatible with a progressive society. Just like for many other religions as well.

The author acts as if it’s not permissible at all to say this. Or that it’s not permissible at all to have any criticism. Sorry, I don’t buy it. Saying I don’t like how women are treated or regarded in a religion isn’t x-phobic against that religion it’s stating I’ve looked at the issue and believe their actions to be wrong.

I get that it places a lot of people in a rough spot, because in this country Muslims are a persecuted religious minority. But it’s fine to be the person that simultaneously tells the right wing bigot to shut up with their hate and simultaneously tell a follower of Islam that you don’t like how the majority of the followers of the religion treat women and that their religious leaders need to get into modern times with that. Those are not incompatible viewpoints.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

11. tenets

Nobody dwells inside Islam or rents space inside Islam, but many "hold" beliefs of Islam.

"tenets" means "holdings". It comes from Latin roots visible in the Spanish and French verbs "tener" and "tenir" which mean "to have" and "to hold", respectively.

[Lee-Lee]

14. Thanks. I never watch the autocorrect on this phone close enough

[Bernardo de La Paz]

18. Thank you for post #9. It is thoughtful and well composed.

But "tenets" has only one 'n' and "tenants" has only one 'e'.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

19. You have composed a great precis of the issues & article's false equation of criticism with phobia.

[Demsrule86]

40. I see...when will be begin the modernization of the Hasidic Jews...who still live like it

is Poland in the 14th century? Or is only religions we don't like subject to this modernization?

[Lee-Lee]

48. Absolutely all religions should be subject to the same criticisms

That said rushing to compare Hasidic Jews, a relatively small sect with about 350,000 followers worldwide, with Islam that has almost 2,000,000,000 practitioners worldwide is a bit of a jump. Especially when their numbers are relatively flat while Islam is growing.

Will I criticize them the same? Absolutely. Do I see an equivalency in many of the aspects of the two? I sure do. Do I think that the impact on global society of the two is equal? Not by a long shot, and it’s only normal that there will be a greater frequency of criticism of the group that is larger and more impactful on global society.

But of course all are open to criticism. Maybe you missed the threads here where a Hasidic Jew demanded a female airline passenger be relocated from the seat next to him- plenty of criticism was to be found, quite deservedly.

[Demsrule86]

119. Criticism I don't care about. I won't do it myself...and I don't like the Burqa actually. But

banning religious garments is discriminatory and unconstitutional.

[Lee-Lee]

120. I don't think anything in that article talked about banning anything

[Demsrule86]

121. They banned the burqa in the Netherlands and also the Hijab in France.

[Petrushka]

113. True . . . so true!

[JI7]

13. liberals are usually critical of religion

[Lee-Lee]

15. Exactly. Why people think islam should be immune from that I don't know

In the way it’s implemented today in the world in many ways it’s the most deserving of criticism.

[7962]

25. Many here will bend over backwards to give Islam a pass;

while having no problem whatsoever with bashing Christianity & Jews.
And the reality is that in many Muslim countries run by Islamists, liberals would be the FIRST people to be killed or imprisoned.

[Demsrule86]

41. Seriously? Those poor Christian and Jewish folks...so persecuted and all...

[7962]

49. Come on, You've been here long enough to know what i'm talking about.

And my 1st point is still accurate even if we disagree on the 2nd; most of us here on DU would be targets in most Muslim countries with non-secular govts. Gays, women, Jews, Christians, even children, etc, would ALL be constant targets. Sure, some bigoted people here do the same, but not as a matter of state decree.

[leftynyc]

61. Uh - did you miss

that part of Roseanne's tweeting screed that went after George Soros? Did you miss the nazis marching in Virginia whining about how the Jews will not replace them? And right here is what I'm talking about with liberals. You can trash Christians and Jews all day long. But Islam is given a pass. Your post PERFECTLY makes my point.

[smirkymonkey]

80. I know, I don't get it. I think it is the fundamentalism that we have a problem

with, not the people who follow a religion without forcing their beliefs and punishments upon others. And that goes for Christian, Jewish and Islamic fundamentalism. All are open to criticism

[7962]

91. Yes, exactly.

But the Islamist fundamentalism is the one pushed to be rule of law and rule of life in so many countries.
We have our own fundies, but they'll never get too much further than the courtroom with their silly ideas

[get the red out]

47. Thank you!

This one certainly is!

[SidDithers]

17. Religion is a learned belief system...

Last edited Fri Jun 1, 2018, 07:51 AM - Edit history (1)

People are religious by choice, not by birth.

Choices and opinions absolutely should be open for criticism. We criticize political opinions and choices all the time. Religious choices and opinions should similarly be open to criticism and ridicule.

As the saying goes: if you don’t want people laughing at your beliefs, don’t hold such funny beliefs.

Sid

[Lee-Lee]

31. One caveat to that

For most of the Muslims in the world, those living in Islamic majority countries, the choice isn’t easy. You are born into it with no choice and live in a society that will not tolerate people leaving.

For those here in the USA the choice is easier, but even then is hard. Especially for those who are immigrants in their communities who don’t have any support system outside family and those close communities, abandoning religion can mean being tossed out on your own with no support system. That’s a far bit harder than even in a religious small town in the south where not being religious doesn’t raise an eyebrow anymore.

[SidDithers]

35. Fair enough...

but it doesn't change the fact that religious belief is a learned behaviour.

A society that is overwhelmingly religious isn't, in my opinion, a healthy society. Education teaches individuals that there are other options, that there are other ways of looking a the world. It's no wonder that the most strongly religious societies are also the ones that are most opposed to free and open education.

Sid

[Demsrule86]

42. A society that doesn't give people the right to practice a religion or no religion if they choose

isn't healthy either. I believe in freedom of speech and religion.

[SidDithers]

44. You and me both...

Sid

[Demsrule86]

46. back at you!

I have to say some of these post are shocking.

[leftynyc]

63. Religion is NOT a choice

in many Muslim countries where blasphemy is against the law.

[Major Nikon]

69. Which doesn't mean religion isn't a choice

There's plenty of people who are irreligious even in the most fundamental theocracies.

[leftynyc]

76. It's what happens to them

when outted that concerns me. You will NEVER get me to believe that women wear burkas in so many places - some incredibly hot - because they choose to. It's what's expected and they would get punished for not wearing them. Atheists are free to live their lives freely here in the US and Western society. We both know that's not the case in many parts of the world.

[Major Nikon]

82. If the law required you to wear a fez, that wouldn't make you a Shriner

Although you might be able to drive the mini car in the town parade.

[leftynyc]

83. Which makes it even worse

Those women are being FORCED to wear them by their men and their society. Any person who values freedom FROM religion should be horrified.

[Major Nikon]

84. It's bad enough if they are just coerced

So I get that part, but it’s still a “lead a horse to water” situation. Nobody can force them to believe it, and if anything the compulsion should have the opposite effect.

[Petrushka]

117. "...a 'lead a horse to water' situation.'"? Flog that horse . . . 40 lashes for refusing to drink!

Woman In Sudan Refuses To Wear Hijab, Faces Flogging

Amira Osman Hamed, a Sudanese woman, will be tried on Sept. 19 for refusing to cover her hair with a hijab, a headscarf worn by Muslim women. If convicted, the 35-year-old could be punished by flogging, according to the Agence France-Presse.

After being detained by police for refusing to wear a hijab on Aug. 27, she says she is willing to face the flogging in order to protest the law that requires her to cover her hair.

This isn’t the first time Hamed’s dress has provoked the ire of Sudanese authorities. In 2002, she was arrested for wearing trousers. Thanks to the help of a lawyer, she was charged only with a fine in that case.

Both of Hamed’s supposed crimes have been in violation of Article 152 of the Sudanese Penal Code of 1991, which states, “Whoever does in a public place an indecent act or an act contrary to public morals or wears an obscene outfit or contrary to public morals or causing an annoyance to public feelings shall be punished with flogging which may not exceed 40 lashes or with fine or with both.”

< snip >

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/10/woman-sudan-hijab-flogging_n_3894950.html

[SidDithers]

73. It's still a learned belief system...

whether those beliefs are learned through indoctrination and coercion, or through eyes-open choice, doesn't really matter to me.

Any learned belief system should be open to criticism and ridicule. Especially those belief systems that morph into theocratic regimes.

IMO, by calling it "liberal Islamophobia", the article in the OP is treading dangerously close to the "religions shouldn't be criticized" line.

I was only trying to, badly apparently, state my opinion that belief in any particular religion isn't an innate quality, and shouldn't be protected from criticism.

And I agree with you - blasphemy and apostasy laws, and the societies that spawn them, absolutely remove the option of choice in whether to learn the mandated belief system.

Sid

[leftynyc]

77. Understood

I've maintained that many liberals have a blind spot with Islam - I suspect it's our habit of rooting for what we perceive as the underdog. I've argued right here - for over a decade - that Islam gets a pass that neither Christianity or Judaism does and have been called hateful things by people who proclaim - from their high horse - that I'm simply a hater. I think they're morons.

[SidDithers]

79. Agreed...

especially the "rooting for the underdog" point.



Sid

[MicaelS]

86. You nailed it.

this is EXACTLY what is happening. Our proverbial worship of the underdog, has unintended consequences.

[KatyMan]

20. How's the weather in Moscow? n/t

Nt

[BannonsLiver]

81. +1

so fucking transparent, just like the Samantha Bee outrage threads.

[ProfessorGAC]

24. Oh, Brother!

And before you ask, i read the link. Specious nonsense.

[ExciteBike66]

29. It is not necessarily bigotry to call for reformation of a religion...

Lord knows we do it all the time in relation to Evangelicals.

The below quote from the article is especially stupid. I wonder if the author can cite a single "liberal" intellectual who believes that all Muslims believe the exact same things. Of course religious people must sometimes choose between liberal principles and their religious views, that is one of the founding ideas of this nation.

"The left is saturated with pundits and self-styled public intellectuals who disseminate discourses that Islam is monolithic; that Muslims must choose between liberal principles and their faith, and, echoing the college student I encountered at in March, a religion that is in need of “reform”."

[Lee-Lee]

34. He creates false premise and then argues against it

He declares that anyone who criticizes Islam must be seeing it as a monolithic religion, then dismisses any and all critical opinions about it as being based on that to try and delegitimize the critics.

I hate to break it to him, but plenty of us are capable of seeing that Islam is practiced in many ways over a range people and still see how the majority of the practitioners have beliefs and actions incompatible with progressive or liberal beliefs.

In the US the vast majority of Mosques are still segregated by gender, with women placed behind partitions or in other rooms away from the men and the main prayer hall and service. That’s a kind of gender segregation that is, in fact, not compatible with liberalism, feminism and Democratic ideals. If any other institutions in those country were to do that we would be justifiable in our outrage and criticism of them- why should this one religion get. Pass.

[Demsrule86]

43. This is not about encouraging reformation...this is about making laws which forbid the practice of

a certain religion and it is wrong to make such laws.

[7962]

50. If thats the case, then I totally agree with you.

Start with one law, and who's next?

[Voltaire2]

57. Uh which liberal is calling for these laws?

[ProfessorGAC]

60. You Didn't Address Voltaire's Question

Which liberals are calling for a prohibition on practice of Islam?

Even the article doesn't name any names calling for that. And his pounding his fist on Maher's table is silly, as Maher is critical of ALL religion. If he finds that there is more to criticize in one religion than another, one cannot immediately assign islamaphobia as a motive. To do so would assume that it is impossible for all religions to have equal and identical flaws about which to criticize.

As to the "not about encouraging reformation" the lawyer that wrote this piece uses that exact example in the 4th paragraph. Did you miss this? His criticism of the american "left" is rooted in part on the idea that some liberals think islam is in need of reform. The author of the piece uses those exact words.

How can you say it's not about something the author says it is about?

[ExciteBike66]

67. Uh, which law are you talking about?

I don't see anything in the article that focuses on a law against Islam.

[Major Nikon]

71. That's not what I got out of the article

[kcr]

109. Are you kidding? This thread alone is full of what that quote claims n/t

[ExciteBike66]

123. Did you read the article?

The headline states liberal islamophobia is rising, but is there any study that shows that? The article itself concentrates on the usual suspects (Maher et al) and then just flat out states that their message is reaching millions of liberals (without saying whether or not liberals agree with that message).

The student quoted at the beginning asks about reform, which is where my comment came in. I think all religions need reform, including Islam, so I am not put off by the question.

The article further implies that it is somehow a problem to ask Muslims to choose between liberal principles and their faith, nothing controversial about that. That idea is a founding idea of our nation, pretty much.

[Oneironaut]

33. Sorry, but this sounds no different than when Christians demand we leave their religion alone.

Religion is an idea, and all ideas worth discussing should be open to attack. If an idea is considered so sacred that it is immune from criticism to spare others’ feelings, then it’s probably nonsense.

Islam and Christianity as an ideology are backwards. They are also highly destructive to human progress. People cling to both religions, and use them to justify doing unspeakable horrors.

Criticizing Islam is not Islamophobia in the same way that criticizing Christianity doesn't make you a bigot. I object to the idea that we need to pretend that Islam isn't a backwards ideology in the name of tolerance. Its an absurdity that has no place in a progressive society. Being respectful doesn't mean you need to pretend that nonsense ideas have any value.

To the author, and all religious followers - ill stop attacking your religions when you can prove that their claims have at least some merit. Furthermore, I’ll stop attacking your religions when they stop trying to indoctrinate children, kill women, create us vs. them conflicts, and worm their way into public policy.

You can believe in your sky fairy, but i’ll keep telling you why its nonsense.

[SidDithers]

37. Well said...

I'm reminded of the quote from physicist Steven Weinberg:

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Sid

[Demsrule86]

45. That is your opinion and you don't have the right to foist said opinion by decree

anymore than the Christians you despise have the right to force you to practice their religion by decree. You can't decide who is worthy of freedom...it is an all or nothing proposition.

[Oneironaut]

64. Christians and Muslims are free to believe in their sky fairy without oppression from the government

That does not mean that I can't point out how both religions are authoritarian, misogynistic, homophobic, brain-washers based on ancient fairy tales written over hundreds of years.

Furthermore, I think it's funny how you snuck in "Christians you despise" over something like "religions you despise." It's not about the Christians or Muslims themselves - that's a strawman. I don't mind Christians or Muslims any more than any other person - I just want their religious system (and some of them as well) to stop trying to force me to believe their silly ideas.

Let's have total religious freedom. Christianity and Islam as a whole should keep their hands off government, children's minds, women's bodies, the education system, and our freedom. I have no problem with people deluding themselves with ancient fairy tales on their own time.

[Demsrule86]

108. I don't disagree with that...I was actually confusing this post with the one about Denmark banning

the burqa which I object to because I believe in freedom to practice a religion or no religion.

[Oneironaut]

114. Ohhhhh ok. Np!

[Mariana]

116. Is criticizing a religion "foisting said opinion by decree"?

You seem to think that criticism of a particular religion is the same as prohibition of the practice of said religion. It isn't. The poster says, "I'll keep telling you why it's nonsense." That doesn't infringe on anyone's freedom of religion one little tiny bit.

[Demsrule86]

118. Banning the burqa is interfering with the practice of Islam.

I don't even like the Burqa...and I hate right wing hate speech, but I would defend both with my life because...only if we protect those freedoms even that we disagree with ...will we remain a free people.

[Major Nikon]

70. If freedom of religion includes the freedom to promote religion...

so must it include the freedom to criticize it.

[SidDithers]

36. ...

Sid

[7962]

53. And which of the 3 murdered people at that magazine over their satire?

Only one. And its almost ALWAYS only that one.

[leftynyc]

65. Don't be surprised

if someone alerts on your post (which I support 100%). It'll be an example of what I'm talking about in my comments.

[7962]

90. Yes, its possible to even be alerted for stating actual facts. Your post above is spot on, as usual

This post may be considered an opinion, but others haven't been

[leftynyc]

95. I used to avoid

these threads but a few years ago realized unless I'm willing to state the facts when they need to be said, I'm not helping.

[ck4829]

75. "And its almost ALWAYS only that one."

Is it the one "almost ALWAYS" shooting up schools, churches, movie theaters, etc?

[7962]

89. Haven't seen many of those in the US professing a religion. But overseas you DO.

Remember the concert shootings & bombings? The random stabbings in the streets? The myriad of OTHER attacks?
ALL by people professing Islamist statements.

[Lee-Lee]

115. Have we seen that done in the name of another religion?

[SidDithers]

78. All of the major religions have a bloody history behind them...

some, bloodier than others, but none are pristine.

The KKK is a Christian Identity organization. Christians have bombed abortion clinics. Catholics and Protestants have been blowing each other up in Northern Ireland for a ages.

Sri Lankan Buddhists and Tamil Muslims blew each other up with regularity during their civil war.

I'm not even going to try to comment on Jews and Muslims. That history is so twisted I've given up trying to understand it

My point is that religion is used to divide populations. It's used to create in-groups and out-groups that can be demonized and dehumanized. They make it acceptable to do violence against those not part of the in-group.

They all do it.

In my opinion, they can all go into the shitter.

Sid

[workinclasszero]

94. So does atheism, bloody as hell

See Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, the killing fields of Pol Pot's Democratic Kampuchea just to name a few.

Millions and millions and millions of victims of official atheism, yeah.

[SidDithers]

96. Laughable...

But you knew that.

Sid

[workinclasszero]

97. I see no humor in the deaths of millions under the boot of official atheism AKA Communism

Dictators are fucking evil, right and left.

People with no religion have no reason to feel self righteous over those that do.

History teaches otherwise. But you knew that.

[SidDithers]

104. Laughable was your pitiable attempt to deflect from religious atrocities...

by using the oh-so predictable "but what about Stalin" argument that so many of the faithful endlessly trot out.

It's even got a name. The Atheist Atrocity Fallacy.

Not that I expect you'll read it, but others may be interested in how your hackneyed argument has been presented over and over and over and over, and how it's really just kinda worthless. The fact that you're using exactly the same argument as Dinesh fucking D'Souza should tell you that you're starting off on the wrong foot.

https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-pol-pot-in-memory-of-christopher-hitchens/

To give you an example of this fallacy in action, we need only examine the reply of renowned Christian apologist, Dinesh D’Souza, to charges of religious violence:

"And who can deny that Stalin and Mao, not to mention Pol Pot and a host of others, all committed atrocities in the name of a Communist ideology that was explicitly atheistic?"

“…it is interesting to find that people of faith now seek defensively to say that they are no worse than fascists or Nazis or Stalinists.” ~Christopher Hitchens

Can't you bring something new to the table?

Edit: and since when is "boot of official atheism" also known as "Communism"?

Sid

[Exotica]

122. Boot of official atheism aka Communism???

What claptrap.

[KG]

38. got no use for xtianity. or islam.

[Dorian Gray]

51. Somebody alerted on this

and I find that dishonest.

Why can't this be a discussion?

I honestly think that there are problems in general in Islam (and Christianity) that can be discussed. A propensity toward patriarchy. But I also believe I can critique that and still support a person's right to be Islamic or Christian. And an open dialogue about this is important.

Why would anybody want to shut this discussion down?

[RhodeIslandOne]

107. The headline stinks and is flamebait

I do think there should be a honest discussion but I don’t see it happening when the author accuses liberals of being bigots (which is the same thing the evangelicals do because we don’t want their shitty religious ideas codified into secular law either).

[oberliner]

58. One of the most intellectually dishonest articles I've read

Seems like most DUers are seeing that as well.

[Hav]

62. This is a topic where I'm split

and I don't know what the right approach is. I think the likes of Maher or Sam Harris are borderline islamophobic while others who criticize them and only concentrate on tolerance while fighting bigotry might be too naive because there are dangerous elements in this religion (and others as well, of course). One of the reasons why Maher and Harris are so outspoken is their position that those who we see as extremists aren't misreading the Koran but are indeed following it. They sense a real danger, but I also sometimes have the feeling that they go too far in the way they approach this fight.

There is a line between bigotry and valid criticism. Without more knowledge, you cannot honestly brand someone as a bigot when he asks for muslims to step up to reform their religion. You should be able to criticize without automatically being attacked as a bigot. On the other hand, bigotry and prejudices can be motives behind criticism.

[Codeine]

66. Islam is most assuredly inimical to liberal values

and in conflict with American identity. ALL religion can be described as such. I’m not going to hold Islam up as being deserving of special sympathy and I’m flabbergasted by liberals and progressives who do.

[hatrack]

72. Nice turd! Thanks for crapping it out on us!

[ck4829]

74. I hope not

[madville]

85. It's not Islamophobia to point out how women are viewed and treated

across much of the Muslim world.

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). Quran 4:34

[MicaelS]

87. This really expresses my view of the Left's attitude toward Islam.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10026053899

I continue to wonder why progressives are so protective of Islam

Homophobic, sexist, anti-Semitic, pro-theocracy and anti-free speech. These ideas are all well within the mainstream of contemporary Islam.

Islam falls well short of the things progressives believe in.

And the fact that there are Christian fundamentalist wackos is no reason to give Islam a pass.

And it seems that whenever atheists mock or denounce evangelical Christians they are applauded by progressives, but when those same atheists (like Bill Maher) similarly mock or denounce Muslims there is either silence or anger from the American progressive left.

and this............

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10681639

I've maintained that many liberals have a blind spot with Islam - I suspect it's our habit of rooting for what we perceive as the underdog. I've argued right here - for over a decade - that Islam gets a pass that neither Christianity or Judaism does and have been called hateful things by people who proclaim - from their high horse - that I'm simply a hater. I think they're morons.

Our proverbial worship of the underdog, has unintended consequences.

[Blue_Tires]

92. So one yahoo college student at a rally says something and the entire left is tainted?

That's the strongest case he has?

Oh, and for the record, Bill Maher isn't "the left" any more than someone like his buddy Greenwald is... Their politics are all over the place and subject to changes in prevailing winds -- Must be why they get along so well...

[workinclasszero]

93. What is this attack liberal democrats day?

From Joy Reid to liberals are the oppressors of Muslims I mean damn people!

Its like freepers running wild around here today!

[Skidmore]

98. This is the RW bigots playing the left

via trolling the media. Don't fall for it.

[wonkwest]

100. Anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-equality

Yeah, I don't care for the religion.

Call me whatever name you like. As if slapping a -phobe on something will suddenly make me care.

I support liberal values. Across the board. For everyone. I don't make special exceptions because, "That's their culture." Soft bigotry of low expectations right there.

That said, Muslim individuals are just fine with me. I know a few, I like them, they're solid people. It would never cross my mind to treat them any differently than anyone else.

But you can't ask me to like, support, or go along with that backwards ass religion. Nope. Not going to do it. As long as it propagates my brothers and sisters getting stoned to death or thrown off buildings or jailed or hanged, I will not be kindly predisposed to it.

Fundamentalist Christians are a fungus on society. Why should conservative Islam be treated any differently?

I know. And it has to do with latent racism on the Left. I choose not to go along with it.

[Tarc]

101. I dislike all religious nuts..Christian, Jewish, Islamic alike

The religion itself isn't the problem, it's the minority of kooks within each one that gives them a bad name.

"Liberal Islamophobia" is not a thing, there are many aspects o Islam that are worthy of criticism, particularly their treatment of women.

[saidsimplesimon]

103. Please, this is offensive

This is propaganda gone wild, imo.

[kcr]

110. What? Bigoted liberals? Impossible!

Seriously though. Gotta love some of the responses proving the OP.

[oberliner]

111. Which responses prove the OP?

[kcr]

112. The ones who paint all Muslims as fundies

claiming it's criticism of the religion. This is nothing but straight up bigotry. It's the Bill Mahr brand of liberalism.