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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhite Fragility Digest #14: 1 June 2018
Link to tweet
Yesha Callahan
A woman at an Albertsons store in Gresham, Ore., attempted to help out a fellow shopper when she came up short at the register. But according to Jacki Carroll, a white woman, the cashier refused to let her help the African-American woman who was using WIC (federal food stamp benefits specifically earmarked for women, infants and children) to pay for her items, and said the cashier made some pretty racist comments in the process.
“(I) said, ‘I will pay,’ and she said, ‘No!’ very abruptly,” Carroll said in an interview with KATU-TV. “Literally, she raised her voice and said, ‘No, you don’t need to do that.’”
Carroll was only offering to pay the $12 the unidentified woman was short, but she said that the cashier, identified only as Debbie, went classist and racist at the same time.
“I go, ‘Well, I don’t mind; just let her have her stuff,’” Carroll said she told the white female cashier, who then responded, “‘No! You’re not going to do that. She has WIC. She gets her free stuff.’”
Eventually the woman left the grocery store with only the items she could afford, and when Carroll continued her conversation with the cashier, she wouldn’t let up on her stank racist attitude.
“‘That’s why they have babies, so they can keep on getting all of the free stuff,’” Carroll said the cashier told her.
https://www.theroot.com/grocery-store-cashier-shames-woman-on-wic-wont-allow-c-1826381401?utm_medium=sharefromsite&utm_source=The_Root_twitter
Robin DiAngelo, Ph.D
The next Digest will be published as needed.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210609305
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210612268
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210616002
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210620209
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210623832
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210627625
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210636806
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210639960
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210642814
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210646721
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210650802
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MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Link to tweet
By Tanasia Kenney
Louisiana State Police are investigating after a Vernon Parish man was struck and killed by a vehicle on Tuesday near Highway 171, a deadly incident that was followed by racist and incendiary remarks by the driver.
Sherell Lewis Jr., 31, of Leesville had stopped to remove debris from the middle of the freeway when he was struck by a pick-up truck Tuesday afternoon, according to local reports. Lewis, a beloved barber in the community, was rushed to the hospital but later succumbed to his injuries during medical treatment.
According to local station KALB, LSP Troopers spoke with the driver, Matthew Martin, at the scene and questioned him and other witnesses about the incident. It was Martin’s Facebook and Snapchat posts following the crash, however, that has folks up in arms. Screenshots of his cell phone revealed exactly what Martin thought of Lewis, as he repeatedly referred to the slain man using the n-word.
Link to tweet
“Y’all, I just hit a whole guy on the highway,” the 18-year-old wrote on Snapchat, followed by several laughing emojis.
In a text chat between him and someone else, Martin tells a friend he hit “some n-gger” on the highway, adding that the impact “f—–d up” his truck pretty good.
Vernon Parish Sheriff John S. Craft said he was “appalled” by the messages.
http://atlantablackstar.com/2018/05/30/white-louisiana-man-mows-down-black-pedestrian-killing-him-then-brags-about-it-on-social-media/
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Link to tweet
By Tanasia Kenney
Link to tweet
Anti-racism activist Tim Wise didn’t hold back in his rebuke of white Americans who criminalize “living while Black” by calling the police, knowing its potential to end badly.
Wise, a celebrated author and educator, appeared on MSNBC’s “Everyday Racism” Tuesday night to offer his thoughts on the string of high profile incidents where Black Americans had the cops called on them for performing ordinary everyday activities, like waiting for a friend at Starbucks or barbecuing in a local park.
“…White America has been raised to believe that the cops are always the good guys and frankly that Black lives matter less than white comfort,” Wise argued, drawing deafening applause from the audience.
Speaking to fellow panelists, the writer proceeded to blast white America’s justification for calling the police and noted the tragic demise of 12-year-old Tamir Rice, who was playing with a toy gun before police gunned him down.
http://atlantablackstar.com/2018/05/30/tim-wise-gets-rousing-applause-for-calling-out-white-folks-on-their-lack-of-empathy-for-black-lives/
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Link to tweet
By Cleve R. Wootson Jr.
MEMPHIS — Sitting in his car outside a boarded-up house on a recent Saturday morning, Michael Hayes went through the mental checklist of things he does to make sure suspicious people know he is an enterprising young real estate investor, not a burglar or a drug addict.
He readied his business cards. He grabbed a sign with his business website and phone number to plant in the front yard of the brick house on Douglass Avenue. He cued up the contract that the homeowner signed allowing Hayes to go inside and take pictures for potential investors. He even had the owner on the phone as he worked one of the boards loose. And, as always, he exhibited a polite and respectful demeanor to anyone he met.
None of it was enough.
Before that afternoon was over, Hayes — a 31-year-old father, former teacher and an entrepreneur with a growing portfolio of rehabbed homes for sale — would have to justify his presence to a screaming neighbor and the police officers summoned to the scene.
He had committed no crime, and the police did not arrest him. But many of the millions of people who saw the video he recorded of the conflict say his transgression wasn’t what he did, but who he is: He was real estate investing while black.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/living-while-black-viral-videos-raise-concerns-about-everyday-racial-profiling/2018/05/29/d4bd630a-5b74-11e8-8836-a4a123c359ab_story.html?utm_term=.4f21748c64c6
Iggo
(47,558 posts)...just so he can get out of his car and do his job.
"He readied his business cards. He grabbed a sign with his business website and phone number to plant in the front yard of the brick house on Douglass Avenue. He cued up the contract that the homeowner signed allowing Hayes to go inside and take pictures for potential investors. He even had the owner on the phone as he worked one of the boards loose. And, as always, he exhibited a polite and respectful demeanor to anyone he met.
None of it was enough."
If this does not piss you off, you are indeed part of the problem. (Not you, Scorps...lol.)
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Link to tweet
By AIMEE PICCHI
Starbucks, Waffle House, Nordstrom Rack have one thing in common: they all involved incidents of "shopping while black," or where black customers are discriminated against because of their race.
The problem is receiving new attention because of these high-profile incidents, which involved employees calling the police for backup. On Tuesday, Starbucks closed more than 8,000 locations to provide anti-bias training to its employees after a Starbucks manager in Philadelphia called the police on two black men who were waiting for a business associate.
At the same time, black shoppers represent a growing consumer base, spending $1.2 trillion annually in purchases, according to data from Nielsen. About 43 percent of millennials identify themselves as black, Hispanic or Asian, which underscores the growing diversity of American shoppers.
Shopping while black "is an institutional problem, but you also simultaneously have to focus on the implicit biases that people have," said George Schreer, professor of psychology at Manhattanville College, who has studied the shopping while black issue.
In a 2009 research paper, he noted retail workers say they believe the typical shoplifter is a young black man, even though statistics show that the most common type of shoplifter is a white woman.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/shopping-while-black-an-old-problem-under-new-scrutiny/
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Link to tweet
By TheGrio
Recently released 911 calls from a golf course in Pennsylvania reveal that the white man who called the cops on golfing Black women told the dispatcher he was not racist.
Steve Chronister called the police twice in April of this year on five Black women whose only “offense” was golfing too slowly on the golf course. The dispatcher was understandably incredulous as to why Chronister was calling the police on five unarmed women at a golf course.
“Other than her mouth, there are no weapons,” he said. When he called the police a second time, he made sure to let the dispatcher know that he was not racist despite what the women were saying to him.
We have a tough situation here with a group of golfers that decide they don’t want to abide by the rules, said Chronister. “We’re not being racist. We’re being golf course management that has to have play moving a certain way.”
Sandra Thompson, Myneca Ojo, Sandra Harrison, Carolyn Dow, and Karen Crosby were the women in question and said they were rattled by the experience.
“It was like we were playing with targets on our backs,’ said Harrison at the time of the incident. ‘What other reason could there be other than we were guilty of being Black while golfing?”
https://thegrio.com/2018/05/31/golfing-while-black-racist/
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Link to tweet
Trump's policies have harmed Black people.
Written By Nigel Roberts
President Donald Trump rallied his base on Tuesday night by feeding them lies about how his policies have benefited African Americans.
Speaking to about 1,000 supporters in Nashville, the president claimed falsely that his policies have improved the lives of Black people, who, he said, have voted for Democrats “for over 100 years.” Aside from Trump’s obvious lie about African Americans only voting for Democrats over the past century, the president’s policies have in fact been detrimental to the Black community.
Link to tweet
In education, the president has looked for ways to cut education funding to public schools. This comes as many Black children attend schools in building that should be condemned, like many in Detroit, and schools that lack the resources that wealthy school districts offer their students. Moreover, rather than reducing bias in schools, Education Secretary Betsy DeVos approved new guidance, which took effect in March, that permits investigators in her department to disregard civil rights cases.
The president has also falsely insisted that he’s responsible for the decline in Black unemployment. However, it has been declining steadily since President Barack Obama’s presidency. Indeed, economists have credited Obama’s financial recovery initiative from the recession for the declining unemployment. In 2010, during the recession, the Black unemployment rate hit 16.8 percent, but it continued to decrease, falling to 7.8 percent when Trump took office.
https://newsone.com/3804471/trump-failed-policies-black-community/
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Link to tweet
By Tia Berger
A recent poll was conducted by NBC News asking if racism is still a major problem and 64% of the country concurred.
The Survey Monkey poll the network posted showed that not all Americans are color-blind although 30% voted that racism “exists today but is not a major problem.”
The poll was taken after an airing of “Everyday Racism In America” on Tuesday night which featured Valerie Jarrett, Al Sharpton, Sherrilyn Ifill, along with NBC host Joy Reid. The panel discussed racial incidents in America that have occurred over the years including Starbucks shutting down over 8,000 of their stores for their employees to undergo racial bias training.
The Starbucks closing which stemmed from the arrest of two Black men in April is a part of a long history of racially motivated events including police shootings of unarmed Black men: Eric Garner, Trayvon Martin, Stephon Clark, the white woman calling police on a Black family in California having a barbecue, a Black Yale graduate who’s white neighbor called the cops on her for taking a nap and more.
45% of respondents believe that racial issues in America are worsening compared to 41% that feel the issue is not widely recognized. Citizens also voted racial tension as the prominent factor of division between Americans.
http://atlantablackstar.com/2018/05/31/a-majority-of-whites-arent-convinced-they-benefit-from-societal-advantages-different-from-blacks/
Maeve
(42,282 posts)Does she think her boss will support her turning down the sale for that bigotry??? And to humiliate a customer...two customers at that, since refusing to allow someone to show compassion is also stupid...
Blue_Adept
(6,399 posts)It's just disgusting what she did. Sadly, I can imagine she kept her job because quite a few bosses feel the same.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)This is only going to stop when enough decent people call out the racists. The behaviors you document show how much work there is to be done. Exposing them to the light is the first step.
marble falls
(57,097 posts)This latest batch is truly disheartening. Thank you for mustering what it must take to stay even tempered when you put these together. For me this is one of the most important features on DU.
I just cannot believe that in 2018 people are still being poverty shamed in grocery stores. Grocery stores.
The collection of all the previous articles put together is overwhelming.........
salin
(48,955 posts)And these are just the minuscule sampling of the experiences such as these that occur all over the place all over the country every hour of every day. A reality which is more than overwhelming - it has to become intolerable for these to become rare to nonexistent instances.
Heidi
(58,237 posts)
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The white woman, Amanda, said her mother offered to pay for the groceries of the black woman who was $12 short.
The cashier rudely prevented the person from doing so, and made some nasty comments. Amanda indicated that she was not sure if the insults from the cashier were racist, or classist, or both (the cashier's comments did not include any racial slurs or epithets according the the FB post).
Then the white woman made a point of posting her experience on Facebook and to call out the cashier and the store for this egregious behavior.
She closes her FB post with:
"This isn’t right! Please help me share this. Let’s try to make a meaningful change. Thank you guys."
As a result of posting her story, this white person has been subject to online harassment and threats against her children.
It seems like she deserves some kudos for her actions.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)You do realize that there was a black person involved in this incident that you completely disregarded, right?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)How was The Root able to write this story and bring this awful behavior to light?
Do you not think Amanda deserves any approbation for her actions?
And her mother: "Carroll left the store, she said, she contacted the manager and demanded that the store apologize to the woman with the WIC and said that the cashier should be disciplined"
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Your message is loud and clear.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)To get them to be aware of systematic racism.
To get them to be aware of their privilege and to be aware of their white fragility.
White people are responsible for racism is America - they are the ones who need to change their behavior and stop perpetuating this unjust system.
In this story, there is a positive example to point to - why not do so? It seems like it could only help the goal of getting white people to change their behavior.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)The NotAllWhitePeople aspect of the story was very clearly included - otherwise you wouldn’t even have known it. Your problem is that this piece was not framed as a YesYesWeknowSomePeopleAreRacistButLookAtHowAwesomeTHISWhiteLadyWas tribute to white allies.
It’s not uncommon for some folks to give credence onlybto those narratives told from the perspective of the Magical Not Racist White Person ... as evidenced by such “historical” depictions of discrimination and civil rights as “Ghosts of Mississippi,” “Mississippi Burning” and “The Long Walk Home” that told the story of the civil rights movement and battles for justice, not through the eyes and voices of the black people who actually suffered the hate and led the battles but through the white “saviors” (usually fictional) who were so inspired by the quiet suffering of the noble black supporting characters that they bucked the system, stepped away from their privilege and, at great personal and professional sacrifice, took up the fight to overcome discrimination and, in the process, learned about themselves and became much better people because, after all, it was all about them.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I know about what they did because I saw the post on Facebook a week ago when this story went viral.
For some reason, you (and others) don't seem to think this portion of the story is that important, while I think it's a good example of how not to act with "White Fragility" - which, again, is the "digest" under which this article is being posted here.
My question to you is: What do you think should be done about white fragility other than making people aware of its existence?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Impatience often compels us to demand an answer prior to, and while we attempt to better understand the question.
When confronted with 2+2+x=y, it's much more rational to define x prior to inferring the value of y.
Rational thought is neither fun nor convenient, but it does work. 
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Lots to think about and consider, as always. Definitely need to slow down with asking for questions to be answered and give folks time to consider and reflect. Appreciate the insights.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)What is this?
Cut and pasted from the OP:
“(I) said, ‘I will pay,’ and she said, ‘No!’ very abruptly,” Carroll said in an interview with KATU-TV. “Literally, she raised her voice and said, ‘No, you don’t need to do that.’”
Carroll was only offering to pay the $12 the unidentified woman was short, but she said that the cashier, identified only as Debbie, went classist and racist at the same time.
“I go, ‘Well, I don’t mind; just let her have her stuff,’” Carroll said she told the white female cashier, who then responded, “‘No! You’re not going to do that. She has WIC. She gets her free stuff.’”
Eventually the woman left the grocery store with only the items she could afford, and when Carroll continued her conversation with the cashier, she wouldn’t let up on her stank racist attitude.
“‘That’s why they have babies, so they can keep on getting all of the free stuff,’” Carroll said the cashier told her.
And the caption of the tweet included in the OP read: "Grocery Store Cashier Shames Woman on WIC, Won't Allow Customer to Help Pay: 'They Keep Getting...A woman at an Albertsons in Gresham, Ore., attempted to help out a fellow shopper when she came up short at the register ..."
As for your question "What do you think should be done about white fragility other than making people aware of its existence?" - that's not really on me or other black people to tell you.
But since you asked, here are a few of my suggestions of what white people can do when people try to make them aware of the existence of white fragility:
1. Stop complaining about having white fragility pointed out;
2. Stop accusing people who point out white fragility of race baiting, whining, playing the victim, slurring white people and, of course, being "divisive;"
3. Stop trying to turn conversations about white fragility into discussions about everything but white fragility;
4. Stop trying to derail discussions about fragility with such whataboutisms as "There was a white person there who DIDN'T show white fragility - why aren't we talking about HER?!?!";
5. Stop reflexively pushing back on or getting defensive about having white fragility pointed out and, instead, actually listen to what black people are saying about it before arguing with us or trying to tell us we're talking about it all wrong;
6. When black people talk about white fragility, take some time to actually think about what you're being told and consider whether any of it applies to you and, if it does, reflect on how you can work on overcoming it;
7. Instead of arguing with and lecturing black people about whether and how we should talk about white fragility, talk to your fellow white people suffering from white fragility, help them see why they are solely responsible for that fragility and solely responsible for fixing it and in the meantime, solely responsibility for not acting it out on other people;
8. Stop behaving as if you are doing black people a special favor by being an "ally," suggesting that being an "ally" is a gift you can bestow and withhold at will depending up how deserving black people are of receiving it at any given time, and stop threatening to stop being an "ally" because a stranger on a political discussion board wrote something you don't like;
9. Go outside and spend some time with some real-life black people, in person, and talk to them about their lives and experiences and the weather and your kids and your pets.
These are just suggestions. But it's not up to me or any other black person to come up with or implement the solution to white people's fragility. That's on y'all. All we can do is tell you when we see it and how it affects us. You need to figure it out how to fix it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That part of the story has been in the news for at least a week.
I learned a lot more about that part of the story from the FB post and follow up posts and responses that have been ongoing.
My argument is that The Root would not have learned about this story (nor the local news outlet) had not this woman posted about it on Facebook (as opposed to the other way around).
In any case, I am happy to stop arguing about this. I will reflect on all that you have shared, and I would ask you to reflect on some of the points I raised as well.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Whining that the media didn't cover enough about the nice white woman when the only reason you know about her is from the media and claiming that the wouldn't have known about the woman had she not posted something on Facebook is really silly. Who in the hell - besides you - cares HOW the Root got the story since they got it and covered it?
I doubt that you even knew about the story at all until MrScorpio posted it - citing the Root, so your complaining sounds like you're just looking for something to fuss about - and only after I pointed out to you that the issue you think is the REAL story was amply covered.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)person desperately tried to do the right thing, both in trying to help the poor woman and making the clerk's conduct public.
The issues of racial prejudice and police lack of accountability for killing Black people are real problems that MUST be solved. But treating White peoples or police chiefs that are actively doing the right things to make those issues go away as "having an obligation to act because they are White" is nonsensical, especially when those people are acting out of moral outrage to what they witnessed.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)They both challenged the person who was behaving in a discriminatory manner, called to account the person who was making the discriminatory comments, spoke to the manager of the store and demanded action, published a description of what took place on Facebook and called for people to do something about it.
The were not silent, they did not walk away from the situation, they stood up for what was right and took swift and immediate action.
This behavior is the antithesis of white fragility in every respect.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)People being morally outraged by acts of prejudice or cases of wrongful police killings should be applauded for standing up for what is right, it seems those people get lumped in with the assholes and the dis instrested or the not my problem types.
marble falls
(57,097 posts)was, tell us something about the PoC who seems to have been reduced to a prop in a morality play.
The story is not about a woman doing the right thing, its about another woman who was poverty shamed: which happens a lot more than than one about somebody else doing the right thing in just another racist event in a poor mother's life.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)America is a racist country - helping bring awareness to that fact to those who are unaware of that fact (or who try to deny it) is critical, but the next question is what do we want people to do about it? This story seems to present a good example of that and I think that can be valuable in the fight to eradicate white fragility - which I assume is one of the important goals here. More people doing what Amanda and her mother did would be a good thing, would it not?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)feelings and drive them away and they’ll never want to do the right thing. When they do the right thing, we’re supposed to pat them on their heads, thank them, and tell them how wonderful they are so they’ll be encouraged and inspired to keep doing the right thing.
Sorry, but we’re not White People Whisperers whose job it is to train and cajole white people to do what decent human beings know they’re supposed to do in the first place. That’s not our job.
Grown white folk have choices. They make them every day and live with the consequences. And they can choose to stand for what’s right or they can choose not to. If they choose the latter, they need to deal with the consequences, including criticism from people - white and black - who know better. When they do the right thing they should do it because it’s the right thing to do and not because they expect to get some kind of Pavlovian reward for it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)They should not worry about hurting people's feelings.
White people are the one's who need to change their behavior. White people are the one's who are responsible for racism in America.
The idea behind getting white people to understand their privilege and their fragility is to get them to change their behavior and stop continuing to maintain this unjust system.
Awareness without action is pretty useless.
In this story, there are two white people who acted the way that not enough white people are acting. Why not point to them as a positive example?
Whites are the ones who need to not only learn and be aware, but also grow, and change, and evolve.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)A black person, a rude white cashier, and a nice white person. (Or maybe two nice white people?) But the basis of the story is that black people are judged when they try to shop and encounter rudeness from cashiers. This is an example of that. It's nice that someone helped, but your choice to center her story over the story of the person of color who was humiliated in public is the problem here. Your choice to ignore the really mean white person is interesting. Don't center white people - and even then only the nice white people - in every circumstance.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Is it just to raise awareness about casual and systematic racism? Or is it also to get white people to change their behavior? It seems like the next step after awareness is action. The story could have been framed in such a way - i.e. white people need to stop acting like the cashier and start acting like Amanda and her mother - otherwise the system that perpetuates the black woman in the article being humiliated and abused will continue.
White people are responsible for racism - they need to change their behavior. Is that not paramount here?
gollygee
(22,336 posts)It could have been framed differently if this were a thread about "white people who are nice." But this is a thread about white fragility, and the cashier is a fragile white person. The shopper was the target of a fragile white person.
Maybe you'd like to start a thread about nice white people.
treestar
(82,383 posts)As part of the same story? Who is it claiming white people in the story must erase the POC in it?
gollygee
(22,336 posts)And oberliner said that we could change our view of this story and center the nice white person. Changing how a story is told to center a white person has the potential to erase the person of color in the story. That doesn't necessarily mean it *must* erase the POC, but that's often what happens.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It is you who concludes mention of the white women who were involved makes us forget all about the black victims. Why would that be?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)We're not dealing with this in a vacuum.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)But that’s not what you did, Boo.
You said the story “Grocery Store Cashier Shames Woman on WIC, Won’t Allow Customer to Help Pay: ‘They Keep Getting Handouts’” should be “viewed as a story of a white person going out of her way to help.”
That’s deflection, plain and simple.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)"This could also be viewed as a story of a white person going out of her way to help" is different from "should be" which you decided to insert on your own in order to alter what I wrote. ( "Could" and "also" )
I think this story is valuable on both levels - showing the awfulness of what happened to this black woman while also showing an example of how white people ought to behave in these situations.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Do you want to encourage the behavior or just be judgmental?
Whose job is it?
I saw a Facebook article telling white people what they should do if they saw other white people act like jerks. The black person who wrote it was doing that job. They should not have? That leaves white people to do that. It themselves. Why trust them? They don’t experience racism.
That is a harsh attitude towards any set of individuals. Like only negative attention works. Positive reinforcement is actually a moral evil in this universe.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)If you want to encourage other white people to do the right thing, be my guest. But it's not my responsibility to try to convince white folk they should do what decent human beings should know to do without being told.
Maybe that's a task YOU can take on
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalNegro
treestar
(82,383 posts)If it would help? Don’t you want the problems solved some day?
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I know that it IS my job to recognize people that make the right choice when they witness an act of wrong being done. Recognizing people that make the right moral choice diminishes no one. The mere thought that a Black person complimenting a White person for being a human being induces blindness to wrong doing is simply wrong and in my view, part of the problem.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I compliment white people all the time. But I do it when and how I choose to. I certainly don't go around patting every white person on the back every time they don't do something racist today. No, it is NOT my job to make every white person feel better about themselves or to encourage them to behave like decent human beings.
Funny that you think it's your job "to recognize people that make the right choice when they witness an act of wrong being done" - but I don't see you jumping in to call out individual white people for committing wrongs against a person of color. I guess THAT's NOT your job, right?
Your priorities are noted.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Anyone that has read enough of my post should know that I despise racists, flat out. I think that they are maggots in the flesh of humanity and should be eradicated as fast as possible. Look, there are Whites that have no racist tendencies nor have they committed a racist act, yes, they were born White and in America, that unfortunately automatically give them a leg up, but why should we fault people for the circumstances of their birth, isn't that where racists start?
I don't take anything back, people that make the right moral choice should be pointed out as having made the right moral choice, doing so deminishes no one, but it does reinforce what is expected in terms of conduct.
malaise
(269,022 posts)Geez!
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)You’re not being consistent, Boo. Well, actually you ARE being consistent - since it always seems that whenever these kinds of situations are discussed, you either try to defend or excuse the actions of the white person inflicting the harm on a black person or now in this situation where it’s too ridiculous to even try, you try to deflect the concern away from the damage done by a white racist to a minority to demand that a white person get bonus points for doing what any decent person should have done in the situation.
I recall a few weeks ago you insisting - in fact, making a huge stink about it - that white people shouldn’t step in to situations where a person of color is being treated badly unless that person of color expressly invites them to do so. But now you not only think it’s great that this white person stepped in, you want to deflect all attention away from the wrong committed against the black person to give the kudos to the white person who spoke up?
One of the maddening things we keep seeing in these conversations is the assumption among some white allies here - and elsewhere - that they’re supposed to get extra credit for doing the right thing and that black folks’ immediate default reaction should shift from concern about how badly we’ve been treated to focus on showing our gratitude and offering praise to white people who do the right thing.
Just yesterday, we were treated to DUers telling us that there’s no such thing as “white privilege” - that the treatment white people get in society is actually the way EVERYONE should be treated and, therefore, it’s not privilege, it’s the norm. Yet you want white people to be given extra credit for wanting someone else to be treated “normally” just like they are.
Sorry, but if privilege isn’t privilege but the norm, insisting that someone else be treated fairly isn’t an extraordinary act - it should also be the norm.
If someone is an ally, they are an ally and they just do what allies do. They don’t expect to get all hails from the crowd for doing the right thing - since DOING THE RIGHT THING IS NOT AN ACT OF CHARITY - while the black victim is ignored, their white oppressor is forgotten and the blatant racism is addressed only long enough to show how awesome the white person is and then swept under the rug.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Though, I must say that I resent the comments in the first paragraph. They are not true and represent either a misunderstanding of what I have said or worse. I have never defended or excused the actions of white people inflicting harm on a black person. That is preposterous and a nasty thing to say. I hope you will reconsider those remarks.
With respect to this story, I agree that Amanda did what she was supposed to do. My assertion is that doing what you are supposed to do is a good thing and that not enough people are doing it. The goal of making people aware of casual racism is to help bring an end to casual racism. Getting more people to do what they are supposed to do is the next step after awareness, isn't it?
In your second paragraph, I think you are referencing the incident with the racist guy berating the people for speaking Spanish. My assertion in that case is that the Spanish speaking people in question handled the situation effectively, told him off, and got him to leave. I thought it was patronizing to suggest that a "white bystander" needed to intervene - that seemed to imply to me that the non-white people were not capable of dealing with this guy, when it seemed like they were.
In this case, the woman was not able to pay for the food that she wanted to purchase for her family, so it is an entirely different situation (doing a good deed for someone in need). I would think many good people would have helped out in that situation regardless of the races of the people involved.
In terms of this story, it's not about "giving extra credit" - it's about illustrating what the right thing is to do. Obviously black folks are concerned about how badly they have been treated (to quote your words) and there is enormous value in bringing attention to that reality, but what is the next step after awareness? Isn't it action? Don't we want to change behavior? Isn't part of the point of talking about privilege and white fragility in the first place to get white people to stop acting a certain way and start acting in a different way?
So here we have an example of two white people (Amanda and her mother) doing what not enough white people would do in a situation like this. I think there is value in saying to other white people: "look at what these people did, that's what you should all be doing".
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)You did more than simply say that, in that one instance you “thought it was patronizing to suggest that a ‘white bystander’ needed to intervene - that seemed to imply to me that the non-white people were not capable of dealing with this guy, when it seemed like they were.” You started an entire thread to somewhat snarkily and sarcastically push back on my urging white people to step up and say something in these cases. You don’t remember that?
If you see a situation where someone is asking for your help, by all means do so; when assistance is needed or requested, offer assistance, when a person is unable to deal with a threatening situation on their own, step in and help them.
But if a non-white person (or group of non-white people) is dealing with the situation effectively and the obnoxious, right-wing, racist person is backing down or walking away, then your "assistance" is likely not needed or wanted.
Not every non-white person wants or needs the help of white people (read up on the "white savior complex" ) In fact, in some cases, it could be seen as insulting and demeaning and implies that they need your help to handle situations that they are quite capable of handling themselves.
And in this thread, you didn’t suggest that people point to the actions of the white ally as an example of “what you should all be doing.” You didn’t say that at all. Instead, you said the narrative should be changed to “a story of a white person going out of her way to he” and “she deserved kudos.” You made no mention of directing this to other white people as an example of what THEY should do. You were all about nothing but deflecting attention away from the racist act of the cashier and the black woman she abused to make it all about this particular white woman and heap praise on her for being so awesome.
And while it’s unfortunate that you resent my first comment, it’s absolutely true as anyone who has read your posts on these topics knows all too well - and I’m sure you know it, too, notwithstanding you “who, me?” stance - so I stand by it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)At least we are both kicking this thread so that more people can read the OP and the other articles shared.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)would you have complimented that that White person? You keep saying over and over that complimenting White people for making the moral choice isn't your job. Which is it?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Would pay the balance then and relate the story online.
This would be so with a white welfare recipient.
You’ve actually managed to show race is not a factor in this fact pattern. It is welfare shaming and all 3 people in this story could be of any race.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)I guess I'm not decent for simply acting like a good person and not letting anyone know. Or maybe I don't understand your point, in which case please clarify for me. Thank you.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)After all, why just point out bad things that happen to other people because of the color of their skin because that takes the focus off me and my Fine A tions?
just in case
treestar
(82,383 posts)I thought posting it online was part of getting the story out. If you don't like that part, OK, just paying the balance, but a lot of people honestly could not do that, so I thought it was generous of them, not the bottom line of decency to be expected.
But we could not be discussing this without the online posting, so I thought that included as part of exposing the bad cashier. But if you are going Biblical where we don't mention our good deeds, maybe the informer is to be condemned for that, but at least she exposed the wrongdoing.
marble falls
(57,097 posts)black in a racist America, to the background.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Isn't that part of how we do something about making America less racist?
In theory, I would think that we would want every white person to behave exactly the way that Amanda and her mother did.
Praising their actions is one potential way to get closer to making that happen.
marble falls
(57,097 posts)thing? Shouldn't kudos come when you go above and beyond?
Shouldn't we be more concerned with the victim of cultural racism?
Giving participation trophies to kids for doing what they are supposed to be doing hasn't turned soccer into the new baseball.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)These threads have been chronicling people doing the wrong thing. Again and again people are behaving in ways that are reprehensible. The behavior of the cashier in this story is awful and my heart goes out to the women who suffered through the indignity of being so treated. I think this story could have been framed in such a way that would have shown empathy to that woman, outrage against the cashier, and the store, and racist America in general, and praise for the women who stood up to the injustice and took the right course of action.
marble falls
(57,097 posts)
It trivializes the value of doing the right thing. It also buries the plight of those being oppressed.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)
Wypipo Participation Medal for Not Being Racist
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to encourage that. Obviously not enough white people are doing it, otherwise the "white fragility" term would not exist.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)POC (certain ones, in particular) from thread to thread challenging their opinions about the existence and manifestation of racism at every possible opportunity.
For example, there are a number of DUers who consistently stalk, insult and disrupt POC constantly, but I haven't ever seen you challenge them or insist that they do better. It would be great to see you do what you insist people do - and that goes beyond just finding examples of good white people and generally saying "we should all be more like them." We need more than that - among other things, we need white people to step up and challenge other white people directly to back down off of their insulting behavior and do better.
You can start there, Boo.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Your posts always challenge me to think about issues more closely and examine my own beliefs and views (as many others posters do). Though we don't always reach the same conclusions, I almost always find great value in the exchanges (in spite of the times I think you unfairly mischaracterize my views).
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)challenge, insult and offend black DUers.
marble falls
(57,097 posts)
treestar
(82,383 posts)Not to me
Obama once paid for a lady’s airline ticket. He didn’t ask for kudos. But I do love that story. And it wasn’t what any decent person would do, it was exceptionally generous.
Yet I request kudos for him anyway.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Showing that there are people that don't tolerate racism regardless of their race or the race of the person victimized by racism sends a powerful message, to attempt to downgrade that is just wrong.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)That is the problem.
You seem to be trying to deflect from that not by focusing on the shit people get put through because of their skin color but on someone who acts decently.
Amanda's mom did not go out of her way to help. She did what any decent person would do.
The problem is she shouldn't have needed to.
Perhaps this is too subtle of a distinction for you.
ismnotwasm
(41,986 posts)These incidents happen every hour of every day, acts of racism, large and small. There is no need to point out that there are “good” white people and every need to point out how pervasive racism is.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Racism is pervasive in America. These posts are grouped under the heading of "White Fragility Digest" - presumably one of the goals is to get white people to stop behaving this way and to behave in a different way. Amanda and her mother exemplify that. Action is the next step after awareness.
ismnotwasm
(41,986 posts)White folks stepping in doesn’t negate racism, but turning the focus on ‘good” white people does NOT help fight racism. There has always been “good” white people. Racism is still a widespread social disease that affects white America.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)One place to 'listen' could be the comment section at The Root, which, as an anti-racist white person, I find enlightening. I get the feeling you see and hear only what you want to and I suggest you dig deeper before assuming anyone's intentions or their lack of understanding of the big picture. It may even be possible that you are deliberately derailing these important discussions but I will treat you with the benefit of the doubt despite my better judgment. The white people who acted as allies here are a big piece of the puzzle, no doubt, but not the main story and nor should they be.
Here's a quick sample from the comments, lest you assume no one is giving the Carrolls credit for bringing this story out:
-->Yes! I’m not sure I would have even spoke up, I’m pretty non-confrontational...
-->Yes!!!! You sound like an awesome person to me. I completely agree
oberliner
(58,724 posts)In fact, I don't think I have ever posted a message there.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)enough credit since, as Cal pointed out, she got lots of credit.
Response to oberliner (Reply #13)
Post removed
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What do you mean by that?
Response to oberliner (Reply #94)
Post removed
oberliner
(58,724 posts)But I do appreciate your avatar of the waving Puerto Rican flag. Disturbing how little attention that situation has gotten.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,501 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Was it based on a disagreement with the sentiment I expressed about the story or just too many responses from me in this thread?
You seem to be saying that it would have been best for me to stay out of this discussion entirely, but I actually thought there was a really positive exchange of ideas and perspectives and I tried to express my view respectfully.
I thought I raised a reasonable point, and I appreciated the back and forth with those who didn't think so.
With respect to the OP, I still feel strongly that the next step after awareness is action - and that this story presents a good example of the kind of action we would want to encourage (the actions of Amanda and her mother), but I understand how focussing on that can be seen as minimizing the experience of the person who was mistreated. That was not my intention.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)“Awareness” being the operative word - which means, among other things, not denying and, when that’s not possible, making excuses for bad behavior or immediately trying to shift to “action” that seems to be limited to encouraging white people to behave like decent human beings by trying to derail discussions of or deflect attention away from bad acts, their systemic, pervasive nature and damage done to countless minorities victimized by this every hour of every day to zeroing in on praising individual white folk who spoke up after the fact in isolated, individual situations.
rurallib
(62,416 posts)They give us at least a small chance to put ourselves in others shoes for a few minutes. It is uncomfortable.
Pointing out that the racism in this country is not limited to events but is something that POC must live with every moment of every day has really caused me to reassess my actions - Thank you so much.
Ligyron
(7,633 posts)We kinda thought things were getting better until Trump. Thanks for reminding us.
BannonsLiver
(16,387 posts)Just looking at 2007-2016 the Obamas were slurred for a decade. While that was going on we had Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice and Dylan Roofs murder spree, and a whole lot of other really nasty stuff that I’ve forgotten about because their was so GD much of it.
Beyond the euphoria I experienced that night in Nov. 2008 there was never a point during those years that it seemed to me like things were getting better with regard to how we deal with race. On the contrary, what I saw, and I think many others saw, was a whole lot of bigoted, scared white folks who lost their shit over his election and as the years ticked by became increasingly emboldened to act out.
That said, I do concede that Trump played a large role in amplifying that particularly in 2015 and 2016, to present, but I think the sentiment was there all along during a period when it might have seemed like things were improving.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)The examples you mentioned are important and jarring - but they are also very distant from most white Americans. They don't know Trayvon, Tamir or the people who were murdered in Grace Emmanuel and many of them don't know anyone like them at all. They don't have any friends who are treated to the "stare" or followed around stores, stopped for DWB or mistaken for the bellman or waiter or criminal suspect.
So, while many white folk saw and were likely horrified by the situations that you mentioned, they didn't have any impact on their lives or the lives of their families or people they know.
I've been very dismayed by how few white people in today's America have regular contact with people of color. A few weeks ago, I asked people to share when was the last time they had a conversation about race with someone of a different race or socialized with someone of a different race in their homes and was really shocked at the number of white DUers who answered that they never or rarely did. It seems that much of what a lot of folks here know about people of color, they learn from the media or on DU and elsewhere on the internet.
There's a big difference between watching and following a situation like, for example, Dr. Gates being arrested on his own front porch and actually having that and other similar things happen to you over and over and never knowing if it's going to happen again today or having a close friend who experiences these things on an ongoing basis. Not experiencing these things close up and personal doesn't make you a bad person, but it does tend to keep you at a distance and give you less opportunity to really understand, try as you might, exactly how pervasive and damaging these daily occurrences are. And I find that people who do have friends who go through this and, thus give them more than a birds-eye view of these things tend to be less likely to dismiss the concerns of minorities when they come up in places like this.
BannonsLiver
(16,387 posts)Thanks, Effie. 
Ligyron
(7,633 posts)Effie pretty much sums up my intended meaning correctly and she makes a really good point about my, and I'm sure others, lack of black friends and situational awareness.
I'm old and I made it halfway through my senior year in HS before schools in my area were even integrated. so I missed out ever meeting, never mind making friends with anyone of a different race up to that point.
After 2 year of college I ran out of money and so joined the Army where upon I found myself in units where whites were a minority. I thought, "Oh boy, here comes trouble", but hell, those guys couldn't possibly have been any nicer to me. I made literally dozens of black friends who graciously introduced me to some areas of black culture as it existed among the younger members at any rate. I remember handshaking was a big deal and they demonstrated the somewhat complex method I needed to employ to do so correctly in order to be one of the gang. All were very patient with me. Fact is: I never saw much racial animosity during my four years in the Army outside of a few silly incidents which was really more about music than anything else. The Army appeared to me, at that point at least, to be an example of fairly successful (for the most part) integration and harmony between races. Compared to what it was even twenty years before I'm sure it was like night and day.
When I got out of the Army I eventually lost pretty much all contact with former military friends of whatever race and it was back to isolation once again. Now, I really have no black friends anymore and it's not because of any animosity on my, or anyone else's part - it's just that I don't have any but a few AA acquaintances here and there. The guys who lives next door is black and we get along great but I'm way older than him. Why would he be interested in hanging out with an old guy like me? A nice black couple lived two houses down from me at my old neighborhood but they were way older than us, so while we got along great, we didn't hang out much and that was a generational artifact more than anything.
But even way back when I did have dozens of black friends I don't ever remember them sharing any of their encounters with racism. I suppose they just figured why bring up trouble with white folks I'm getting along so well with? O course, I didn't ask either, so perhaps shame on me.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I think your experience is very common.
jmbar2
(4,888 posts)I suppose for folks who don't want to see racism in action, it's easy to justify racist incidents as isolated, unfortunate events. However, when you see the continuing list, frequency and ubiquity of them, it's undeniable. America is a terrible place to be black.
I feel so ashamed and grieved that we are doing this to our fellow Americans. I will do whatever I can, as a white person, to make it less so.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)From the story in the OP.
jmbar2
(4,888 posts)I've been rehearsing in my mind responses to such behavior. I want to be ready.
ismnotwasm
(41,986 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)for situations like this.
thanks
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)If they get the money in return for the product they don't have to even pay attention. If Jacki had given the lady the money back in the line before they got to the cashier, Debbie would have been none the wiser.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)I imagine that many of us have helped someone who was a little short at the supermarket.
Its difficult to imagine the world of fear and hatred that the cashier lives in that she becomes so invested to stop another person from helping another.
Remember what Eddie Murphy said "talk is cheap", but when I hear of BS like this I always think of his classic skit "White Like Me".
treestar
(82,383 posts)Exaggerated comically for effect.
brer cat
(24,568 posts)
kentuck
(111,098 posts)
BumRushDaShow
(129,053 posts)