URGENT Just 3 weeks to pass an end of double jeopardy law in NY to counter Trump pardons now.

[Tom Rinaldo]

NOW is the time to put on the pressure. If time runs out the legislature does not convene again until early next year and any pardon Trump issues before New York State law is changed will negate prosecution by New York State of any crimes pardoned at the Federal level by the president. This is covered in today's New York Daily News :

"Trump's latest pardon has NYS AG calling for end of double jeopardy law in New York"
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-pol-after-trump-pardon-nys-ag-calls-for-end-of-double-jeopardy-20180531-story.html

Here are the bill numbers in the NY State Assembly and Senate:

In the Assembly the bill is in the Codes committee. It is being sponsored by Assemblyman Joe Lentol (D) and it is Assembly Bill #10422.

In the Senate it is also in the Codes committee. It is being sponsored by Senator Todd Kaminsky (D) and it is Senate Bill #8236.

This NY State legislature session is scheduled to conclude in three weeks. The next legislative session is not due to begin until next January. If these bills fail to be signed into law Trump will have 8 or more months to issue Presidential pardons that can not be countered by prosecution for crimes committed within New York State. Those pardons would truly become "get out of jail free cards" unless we can close the double jeopardy loophole in New York law within the next three weeks.

I spoke both to my Democratic Assemblyman's office in Albany and to Assemblyman Lentol's office (and to my Republican State Senators office as well). Prospects for passage in the Assembly are very good. It should have no trouble winning Committee approval and passing the full Assembly.

That by itself means nothing. There is a shell game constantly being played in the New York State Legislature. Democrats in the Assembly can pass any progressive legislation that they want anytime they want, taking full credit for that action while knowing that the Senate will usually kill it. What counts is not what the Assembly does but how quickly they do it and how high a profile they give to passage of this legislation. This bill needs to clear the Assembly soon so that maximum pressure for it's passage can be put on the Senate. Democrats in the Assembly and the Senate must publicly make this legislation of the highest priority for THIS session.

We only need the votes of one or two Republicans in the New York State Senate to get this passed and there are several "moderate" Republican Senators who fear a blue wave this November. No doubt they hope the clock can be run out before they are forced to take a stand on Senate Bill #8236. That is what everyone expects to happen. We can not allow that.

[hlthe2b]

1. I don't know what people outside of NY can do.

Seems to me that this is going to take NY residents calling state legislators and the Governor... Somehow, I don't think someone calling from Colorado would be appreciated on a state matter?

Obviously, I'd like to see this succeed and quickly....

[Tom Rinaldo]

4. I might suggest calling NY Governor Cuomo if you live out of State

He has known national ambitions and we need him to push hard in New York State for this law to pass this session. It might seem less inappropriate for a Democrat from out of state to call our Democratic Governor (rather than a local State Senator) to say that you are counting on him to come through for all of us. Cuomo has known ties to some Republican State Senators. Pressure from him could make the difference.

Here is his contact page:
https://www.governor.ny.gov/content/governor-contact-form

[hlthe2b]

5. ok... I will

[fierywoman]

7. Could we call from out of state and say, " I'm an American, could you please..."

[Tom Rinaldo]

13. I see no reason why not

There's not much point in tracking down individual State Senate Republicans to lobby calling from out of state, but the Governor has a role to play in pushing this legislation through. Contact info for Cuomo is in post #4 above.
And if know anyone who lives in New York State you can lobby them to lobby the NY State legislature.

[leftynyc]

2. Already called Sen Stewart-Cousins

Not worried about her vote but made the call anyway.

[marybourg]

3. Bad facts make bad laws

[Tom Rinaldo]

6. I'm not sure what specific point you are making

Both the recently resigned New York State Attorney General and the newly appointed New York State Attorney General have strongly called for this change in NY State law.

[marybourg]

11. There are many reasons why we originally enacted double jeopardy

laws, and there may be some valid counter arguments, but longstanding laws shouldn't be overturned in response to one occurrence or one set of facts, no matter how egregious, or how notorious the actor. Remember there are always unanticipated consequences.

[Tom Rinaldo]

12. OK, I get that...

I have never fully understood how a person acquitted on a State level of a crime, such as murder, can then be tried in a Federal Court on a "different" charge such as deprival of civil rights, for the exact same killing. But separate State and Federal trials pertaining to the same events are not all of that unusual. Civil and Criminal trials for the same event happen all the time also. O.J. Simpson won his criminal case for the murder of his wife but lost his civil case for that same murder, to cite a well known example.

There seems to be a lot of legal precedence for charges being prosecuted independently on both the State and Federal levels when jurisdiction can be established for both. The specific wording of the current NY State law seems at issue, not the concept.

I appreciate your point, but in the face of examples like the above I don't think it is germane in this instance. Anyone acquitted of a crime at the state level could still not legally be retried at the state level of that same crime. The revision being considered in NY law is very narrow, tailored to federal pardons. For it to apply one would have had to have been pardoned for Federal Crimes, not acquitted of same. It doesn't call for disregarding a federal court decision of innocence in order to try someone on the state level.

[grantcart]

21. It isn't about eliminating double jeopardy its about eliminating no jeopardy

double jeopardy is meant to prevent people who have been found innocent or not guilty from being prosecuted a second time.

This law is aimed at ensuring that people who have been found guilty cannot escape justice because they have received a politically motivated pardon that is in itself an obstruction of justice.

[Lee-Lee]

8. I'm not sure I support ending double jeopardy laws

Those exist for a very good reason.

Throwing them and the protections they provide away for everyone just because a few people you really don’t like may benefit from them is bad policy made in haste.

[dsc]

9. New York's is an extreme version

most states don't count it as double jeopardy for you to have been prosecuted for a federal crime under the same facts. One example of this in reverse was shown in Mississippi Burning where the state acquitted a defendant for murder with the feds prosecuting (I think it was the murder of Goodman, Schumer, and Cheney). Also the cops in the Rodney King case got convicted by the feds after being acquitted by jury for state charges. New York bans the state from trying a defendant who has been prosecuted by the feds. The fix being asked for here is to allow for the trial of a pardoned defendant.

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. This Just one more Rec and this notice can make the greatest page n/t

[grantcart]

22. It isn't about eliminating double jeopardy but eliminating "no jeopardy"

double jeopardy is meant to prevent people who have been found innocent or not guilty from being prosecuted a second time.

This law is aimed at ensuring that people who have been found guilty cannot escape justice because they have received a politically motivated pardon that is in itself an obstruction of justice.

[Hortensis]

14. Kick! Good luck on responsible action.

[mountain grammy]

15. K & R

and will return later to kick again.. Three weeks left.. get it done, NY.

[bluestarone]

16. K&R

Need to get this done!!!!!!

[Demsrule86]

17. I am not sure this is a good idea. I don't believe in double jeopardy...this could be used by

Trump for political prosecutions...double edged sword.

[Tom Rinaldo]

19. No, it doesn't work that way.

Nothing other than career Justice Department officials or impeachment stands in the way of Trump trying to prosecute anyone he wants for political reasons now. This doesn't change that in anyway for the worse.

OK, if you really want to stretch it. Right now Trump can't urge the NY District Attorney to bring up on State of New York charges (assuming there is a proper geographic nexus) a person who previously received a Federal pardon (for a Federal crime) from a former President like Obama. If New York modifies its law Trump could then look at everyone who has in the past received a federal pardon, for actions they had been federally convicted of, find out which ones committed those crimes inside New York State, and then somehow pressure New York State into attempting to prosecute those people under State law. That is not a realistic scenario to even be attempted, let alone succeed.

[Demsrule86]

27. What about someone who was acquitted? could they be tried by Trump in federal court if

acquitted in state court or vice versa?

[grantcart]

23. it isn't about eliminating double jeopardy, its about eliminating "no jeopardy"

double jeopardy is meant to prevent people who have been found innocent or not guilty from being prosecuted a second time.

This law is aimed at ensuring that people who have been found guilty cannot escape justice because they have received a politically motivated pardon that is in itself an obstruction of justice.

[Demsrule86]

28. So it only applies to a pardon ...not conviction or acquittal?

[grantcart]

29. Acquittal no

Somebody who is convicted under identical statutes but us then given a pardon and never faces the punishment would be liable for criminal prosecution in the state on the charge that they never faces jeopardy because the President pardoned them.

For example Joe Apiro was convicted but pardoned before he was even sentenced so he never faced jeopardy.

If you are found innocent you cannot be retried, and that is where the whole principle of double jeopardy really applies.

No one really imagined a whole class of criminals getting mass,pardons by a culpable chief executive.

Double jeopardy is intended to protect against malicious prosecution, not righteous prosecution and a malicious chief executive.

If Trump succeeds in avoiding criminal prosecution and impeachment on clearly defined crimes our constitutional system of checks and balances is over.

A lifelong Republican who was a judge told me that if the Democrats don't retake the House in a landslide then our Republic is over as we know it.

[Demsrule86]

30. Ok...I just don't want to see system similar to that in Italy where that American girl

accused of killing her flatmate was tried multiple times. The state or the feds could simply keep going until they found someone to find that person guilty.

[triron]

20. kick for visibility

[grantcart]

24. I agree 100% but people shouldn't get too bummed out about this

Anybody who receives a pardon immediately loses their ability to invoke the 5th amendment against self incrimination and must testify completely and truthfully or will commit new crimes that are not covered by the pardon.

What do you think Cohen might testify to if he had no 5th amendment protection and had to answer every question or be arrested and go to jail?

[manicdem]

25. Both sides

Have to see this from both sides. If Trump unjustly prosecutes someone and the next President (like Biden) pardons them and there is a change in administration in NY, the NY could unjustly put them back in jail.

[Tom Rinaldo]

26. Not without a trial

A President issues a pardon for Federal crimes. New York's law as currently written (it's different in different States) seems to allow a Federal pardon to wipe the slate clean of the potential for State prosecution if that crime occurred inside New York State regional jurisdiction. But New York can't put anyone in jail without first a new indictment and then a new conviction.

So for your scenario to happen "Biden" would have to pardon someone successfully prosecuted for a federal crime under Trump, and then NY State's AG would have to file new State Charges against that person and seek an indictment for a State Trial inside NY. And then that person would need to be convicted again.This is pretty far fetched. Trump is the extreme abnormality. No other modern President has openly abused the pardon power in this manner. Trump can singlehandedly pardon someone with his power, but he can not single singlehandedly convict anyone without a trial. Nor can any prosecutor in New York State.