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fleur-de-lisa

(14,627 posts)
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 12:01 PM Jun 2018

"If selling someone a wedding cake is participating in their marriage" . . .

Allen Marshall @AllenCMarshall

If selling someone a wedding cake is participating in their marriage, isn't selling a gun to a shooter participation in murder?

9:54 AM - Jun 5, 2018


32 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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"If selling someone a wedding cake is participating in their marriage" . . . (Original Post) fleur-de-lisa Jun 2018 OP
Bravo! Raster Jun 2018 #1
What a great quote Perseus Jun 2018 #2
Here's what's wrong with Dems like me (yes, me) zaj Jun 2018 #3
what about someone who repairs guns and makes them more beautiful with demigoddess Jun 2018 #5
They might be able to refuse to sell to a gay man for religious reasons zaj Jun 2018 #7
They wouldn't be liable for any death associated with it. Ohioboy Jun 2018 #10
What about just the manufacturer of guns? Ohioboy Jun 2018 #8
Yes! kag Jun 2018 #18
I totally agree with you about Dems thinking too clearly and arguing... LAS14 Jun 2018 #14
BINGO n/t kacekwl Jun 2018 #4
On the money in my opinion! pazzyanne Jun 2018 #6
Oh, volstork Jun 2018 #9
Who would want his cacabigoted cake anyway...just another way to discriminate! But, im sure he's RestoreAmerica2020 Jun 2018 #11
Religion should be non-violent and therefore against guns bucolic_frolic Jun 2018 #12
EXACTLY! usaf-vet Jun 2018 #13
Found two pennies on the street yesterday. Collimator Jun 2018 #15
Great contribution to this thread! Beartracks Jun 2018 #26
Selling someone a gun who you know is going to use it in a crime (or to someone you know... PoliticAverse Jun 2018 #16
Let them ALL eat cake. This is trickyguy Jun 2018 #17
Excellent point!!! Initech Jun 2018 #19
Sure - if you knew in advance what the shooters intentions were. hack89 Jun 2018 #20
And that is why Republicans are anti-logic as well world wide wally Jun 2018 #21
BRAVO!! Ferrets are Cool Jun 2018 #22
Shouldnt it be selling or making? cstanleytech Jun 2018 #23
Would the baker make a cake for divorced folks for second marriage? keithbvadu2 Jun 2018 #24
Did the court say it was participating in the marriage to sell a cake? nt Honeycombe8 Jun 2018 #25
THIS is a damn fine connection RainCaster Jun 2018 #27
Awesome comparison krakfiend Jun 2018 #28
+100 Duppers Jun 2018 #29
This message was self-deleted by its author AlexSFCA Jun 2018 #30
Nope, doesn't follow. malthaussen Jun 2018 #31
My, that's a hard question... PatrickforO Jun 2018 #32
 

zaj

(3,433 posts)
3. Here's what's wrong with Dems like me (yes, me)
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 01:03 PM
Jun 2018

I read that and think/say... that's not the real issue of the case. They ruled that the creation of the cake was an artistic/speech exercise. Not all sales are that.

*BUT* while that's true, this messaging is strong, and the people we need to reach (the vast majority of people) don't take the time to understand or consider the nuance. But to Dems, truth, facts, and authenticity are emotional core values. So we don't use the same persuasion tools to the same effect that Reps do.

demigoddess

(6,641 posts)
5. what about someone who repairs guns and makes them more beautiful with
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 01:24 PM
Jun 2018

added details? artistic endeavor?

 

zaj

(3,433 posts)
7. They might be able to refuse to sell to a gay man for religious reasons
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 01:34 PM
Jun 2018

(their art being expression)

But I don't see how it would hold that they are legally liable for the death associated with it.

I would probably support a law making that a reality, but I don't see how the logic does us any real good (other than rhetorically).

Ohioboy

(3,243 posts)
10. They wouldn't be liable for any death associated with it.
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 01:39 PM
Jun 2018

Just like the cake maker wouldn't be supporting gay marriage against his or her religion by simply making a cake. I think that's the point.

Ohioboy

(3,243 posts)
8. What about just the manufacturer of guns?
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 01:35 PM
Jun 2018

Gun making is their art. They are using their art to provide their customers with a way to kill.

kag

(4,079 posts)
18. Yes!
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 02:51 PM
Jun 2018

And lots of congress critters, including some Dems, have gone to great lengths to keep gun manufacturers from suffering the consequences of their deadly "art".

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
14. I totally agree with you about Dems thinking too clearly and arguing...
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 02:13 PM
Jun 2018

... facts. It gets in our way in a fashion that most Repubs don't have to contend with.

But in that spirit, I thought the point of the Supreme Court decision was the way the state treated the baker, in a manner that disrespected his religion. No?

RestoreAmerica2020

(3,435 posts)
11. Who would want his cacabigoted cake anyway...just another way to discriminate! But, im sure he's
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 01:46 PM
Jun 2018

..a "nice" Christian. Damn hypocrites! For christs sake take your business elsewhere ...need cake, flowers, photos an event catered ? I'm certain, there are plenty of entrepreneurs out there who would love the business...businesses that do not discriminate, hate...businesses that are inclusive and respect all people.

BOYCOTT ALL racist, bigoted establishments, businesses... and let that guy and people like him--eat cake!

Ps. Did I read that cake guy was also claiming artistic expression? If so, artistic expression and bigotry is an oxymoron.

Collimator

(1,639 posts)
15. Found two pennies on the street yesterday.
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 02:36 PM
Jun 2018

So, I guess I can afford to chip in my two cents.

First, the Marshall quote is thought provoking to say the least.

Second, I am not up to speed on the exact issues in the Baker Vs Gay Wedding case, but I will consider two perspectives.

If a gay couple or an interacial couple or a Muslim couple walk into a bakery and point to an item and say, "I want to purchase that" there is no argument to support denying them such a right. By extension, if a gay couple, etc. were to leaf through the design books for the wedding cakes and ask to buy the pretty flowered one on page 16, the baker better deal because it's not his business who is going to serve it or eat it. A "nice" straight, white couple could order the same thing with the intent to throw it off a roof; the baker doesn't need to know that. Even if they told him what they wanted to do, could he get away with denying them the product because he thinks it's a sin to waste food? I don't think so, pal.

However, If a gay couple wants to order a cake with custom decorations of sugared penis sculptures, or even two staid little grooms standing side-by-side, that's another matter. I believe the baker is within his rights to say, "I won't decorate your cake that way." Call it religious rights or artistic expression, the baker isn't (or shouldn't be allowed) to refuse to sell them a cake, but he should be permitted to refrain from creating something which he, personally, finds offensive.

Do I agree with the baker and his viewpoint about gay rights? No, of course not. But if a baker refused to make a cake featuring little figures of black people with chains on their legs, most people would support his stand. (And yes, somewhere in this country there are people sick enough to order such a cake--possibly to celebrate Junior's induction into the KKK, or whatever.)

A bakery run by an Orthodox Jewish family might be offended by an request for cookies that look like breasts or penes intended for a bachelorette or bachelor party. How many would insist that they would have to make the cookies to order? Especially when there are bakeries that proudly offer those sorts of items for sale.

Shortly after the election, I read some writer's point that "Democracy is living with people whose opinions you hate."

So, yes, that baker might hate doing business with the gay couple and making them the flowery cake on page 16. But to refuse to sell a standard item from his sales line to someone because they are gay should be illegal.

The gay couple may hate the fact that the baker has Gospel music blaring in his store and and an image of Jesus hanging on the wall, but can they sue him into making a giant penis-shaped cake just because that baker has the best frosting in the biz? Better to take their business elsewhere, and loudly proclaim their opinion of the guy to everybody involved with their wedding.

Certain things can be codified into law, but one cannot legislate the human heart. Slavery was made illegal, but the hatred (and fear, inspired by unacknowledged guilt) harbored by the white population could not wiped out with an act of legislature.

The change we seek is a compound effort between laws that protect certain essential rights and an ongoing, open conversation about shared and differing values. We have an amendment protecting free speech. There is no legal body on earth that can force us to listen.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
16. Selling someone a gun who you know is going to use it in a crime (or to someone you know...
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 02:44 PM
Jun 2018

cannot legally own a gun) is a felony.

trickyguy

(769 posts)
17. Let them ALL eat cake. This is
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 02:48 PM
Jun 2018

a totally ridiculous argument on the part of the baker.
He's shooting himself - no pun intended - in the foot for not making the cake.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
20. Sure - if you knew in advance what the shooters intentions were.
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 04:40 PM
Jun 2018

if you did not know then the answer is no.

Not complicated.

cstanleytech

(26,298 posts)
23. Shouldnt it be selling or making?
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 07:36 PM
Jun 2018

After all some of the arguments I have seen people try to use to defend the baker that refused to do the cake for that gay wedding case was that they were going to be forced to make it.

keithbvadu2

(36,829 posts)
24. Would the baker make a cake for divorced folks for second marriage?
Wed Jun 6, 2018, 08:01 PM
Jun 2018

Would the baker make a cake for divorced folks for second marriage?

Jesus was pretty specific about divorce.

Response to fleur-de-lisa (Original post)

malthaussen

(17,204 posts)
31. Nope, doesn't follow.
Thu Jun 7, 2018, 11:13 AM
Jun 2018

A wedding cake is a purposed purchase. They are only made for weddings. A firearm is not made for murder -- one might argue that murder is, in fact, misuse of the product. Logically and legally, this analogy does not work.

Morally, however, well, that's a different story...

-- Mal

PatrickforO

(14,578 posts)
32. My, that's a hard question...
Thu Jun 7, 2018, 11:53 AM
Jun 2018

The right-wingers aren't going to like it. They always hate it when their hypocrisy is exposed.

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