General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"If selling someone a wedding cake is participating in their marriage" . . .
Allen Marshall @AllenCMarshall
If selling someone a wedding cake is participating in their marriage, isn't selling a gun to a shooter participation in murder?
9:54 AM - Jun 5, 2018
Link to tweet
Raster
(20,998 posts)Perseus
(4,341 posts)Needs to be passed around...Fantastic!
zaj
(3,433 posts)I read that and think/say... that's not the real issue of the case. They ruled that the creation of the cake was an artistic/speech exercise. Not all sales are that.
*BUT* while that's true, this messaging is strong, and the people we need to reach (the vast majority of people) don't take the time to understand or consider the nuance. But to Dems, truth, facts, and authenticity are emotional core values. So we don't use the same persuasion tools to the same effect that Reps do.
demigoddess
(6,641 posts)added details? artistic endeavor?
zaj
(3,433 posts)(their art being expression)
But I don't see how it would hold that they are legally liable for the death associated with it.
I would probably support a law making that a reality, but I don't see how the logic does us any real good (other than rhetorically).
Ohioboy
(3,243 posts)Just like the cake maker wouldn't be supporting gay marriage against his or her religion by simply making a cake. I think that's the point.
Ohioboy
(3,243 posts)Gun making is their art. They are using their art to provide their customers with a way to kill.
And lots of congress critters, including some Dems, have gone to great lengths to keep gun manufacturers from suffering the consequences of their deadly "art".
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... facts. It gets in our way in a fashion that most Repubs don't have to contend with.
But in that spirit, I thought the point of the Supreme Court decision was the way the state treated the baker, in a manner that disrespected his religion. No?
kacekwl
(7,017 posts)pazzyanne
(6,556 posts)volstork
(5,402 posts)SNAP!!
RestoreAmerica2020
(3,435 posts)..a "nice" Christian. Damn hypocrites! For christs sake take your business elsewhere ...need cake, flowers, photos an event catered ? I'm certain, there are plenty of entrepreneurs out there who would love the business...businesses that do not discriminate, hate...businesses that are inclusive and respect all people.
BOYCOTT ALL racist, bigoted establishments, businesses... and let that guy and people like him--eat cake!
Ps. Did I read that cake guy was also claiming artistic expression? If so, artistic expression and bigotry is an oxymoron.
bucolic_frolic
(43,190 posts)but it's an implied aspect of religiosity
usaf-vet
(6,189 posts)Collimator
(1,639 posts)So, I guess I can afford to chip in my two cents.
First, the Marshall quote is thought provoking to say the least.
Second, I am not up to speed on the exact issues in the Baker Vs Gay Wedding case, but I will consider two perspectives.
If a gay couple or an interacial couple or a Muslim couple walk into a bakery and point to an item and say, "I want to purchase that" there is no argument to support denying them such a right. By extension, if a gay couple, etc. were to leaf through the design books for the wedding cakes and ask to buy the pretty flowered one on page 16, the baker better deal because it's not his business who is going to serve it or eat it. A "nice" straight, white couple could order the same thing with the intent to throw it off a roof; the baker doesn't need to know that. Even if they told him what they wanted to do, could he get away with denying them the product because he thinks it's a sin to waste food? I don't think so, pal.
However, If a gay couple wants to order a cake with custom decorations of sugared penis sculptures, or even two staid little grooms standing side-by-side, that's another matter. I believe the baker is within his rights to say, "I won't decorate your cake that way." Call it religious rights or artistic expression, the baker isn't (or shouldn't be allowed) to refuse to sell them a cake, but he should be permitted to refrain from creating something which he, personally, finds offensive.
Do I agree with the baker and his viewpoint about gay rights? No, of course not. But if a baker refused to make a cake featuring little figures of black people with chains on their legs, most people would support his stand. (And yes, somewhere in this country there are people sick enough to order such a cake--possibly to celebrate Junior's induction into the KKK, or whatever.)
A bakery run by an Orthodox Jewish family might be offended by an request for cookies that look like breasts or penes intended for a bachelorette or bachelor party. How many would insist that they would have to make the cookies to order? Especially when there are bakeries that proudly offer those sorts of items for sale.
Shortly after the election, I read some writer's point that "Democracy is living with people whose opinions you hate."
So, yes, that baker might hate doing business with the gay couple and making them the flowery cake on page 16. But to refuse to sell a standard item from his sales line to someone because they are gay should be illegal.
The gay couple may hate the fact that the baker has Gospel music blaring in his store and and an image of Jesus hanging on the wall, but can they sue him into making a giant penis-shaped cake just because that baker has the best frosting in the biz? Better to take their business elsewhere, and loudly proclaim their opinion of the guy to everybody involved with their wedding.
Certain things can be codified into law, but one cannot legislate the human heart. Slavery was made illegal, but the hatred (and fear, inspired by unacknowledged guilt) harbored by the white population could not wiped out with an act of legislature.
The change we seek is a compound effort between laws that protect certain essential rights and an ongoing, open conversation about shared and differing values. We have an amendment protecting free speech. There is no legal body on earth that can force us to listen.
Beartracks
(12,816 posts)Thanks!
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PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)cannot legally own a gun) is a felony.
trickyguy
(769 posts)a totally ridiculous argument on the part of the baker.
He's shooting himself - no pun intended - in the foot for not making the cake.
Initech
(100,081 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)if you did not know then the answer is no.
Not complicated.
world wide wally
(21,744 posts)Ferrets are Cool
(21,107 posts)cstanleytech
(26,298 posts)After all some of the arguments I have seen people try to use to defend the baker that refused to do the cake for that gay wedding case was that they were going to be forced to make it.
keithbvadu2
(36,829 posts)Would the baker make a cake for divorced folks for second marriage?
Jesus was pretty specific about divorce.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)RainCaster
(10,884 posts)Why hasn't the GOP connected these dots yet? Oh yeah, it's an IQ thing.
krakfiend
(202 posts)Duppers
(28,125 posts)Response to fleur-de-lisa (Original post)
AlexSFCA This message was self-deleted by its author.
malthaussen
(17,204 posts)A wedding cake is a purposed purchase. They are only made for weddings. A firearm is not made for murder -- one might argue that murder is, in fact, misuse of the product. Logically and legally, this analogy does not work.
Morally, however, well, that's a different story...
-- Mal
PatrickforO
(14,578 posts)The right-wingers aren't going to like it. They always hate it when their hypocrisy is exposed.