Who is Sanders referencing when he extols "the independent who has to run against Democrats"?

[lapucelle]

Not with Democrats, but against Democrats.

“There is not a lot of love, frankly, for either the Democratic or Republican Party and many people are discouraged with both. They’re turning away from both. So I think it is not a bad idea to have somebody who says, ‘I understand that. I am an independent. … I have had to run against Democrats'".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2018/06/07/daily-202-why-bernie-sanders-won-t-join-the-democratic-party/5b18850d30fb04775d88138c/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bd122cb1955d

[SidDithers]

1. DU rec...nt

Sid

[Hortensis]

23. The more exposure the better. This is in WaPo.

Keep talking Sanders.

[JI7]

2. The 2016 primary

[msongs]

3. bernie and trump share one thing - they can't stop rehashing the 2016 election nt

[YessirAtsaFact]

82. They also have something else in common

I'd like to go the rest of my life and never hear anything about either of them again.

[Cha]

4. That's the same kind of thing he said when he wanted President Obama

primaried in 2012.. ".. millions are disappointed.."

How's that working out for him?

"..frankly.." yeah right.

[NastyRiffraff]

5. Makes perfect sense

When you constantly bash the Democratic party, of COURSE you're running against it. Certainly not "helping" it.

[Cha]

6. Right.. more divisiveness.

I love my Democratic Senators!

Riff

[PSPS]

7. Sanders is like trump in that he's forever in primary mode. Putin playbook: foster divisiveness

I wonder how many rubles find their way into his bank account.

[mcar]

8. Good question

If he's running against Democrats, why should the DNC have him in the fold?

[oberliner]

32. What about the next line of the quote (that was cut out for some reason)?

"But I want you, as independents, to come into the Democratic primaries and transform the Democratic Party.’”

[lapucelle]

37. The line where BS encourages independents to show up at Democratic primaries

to vote for candidates who "have to run against Democrats"? Here's the full quote:

"I understand that. I am an independent. … I have had to run against Democrats. But I want you, as independents, to come into the Democratic primaries and transform the Democratic Party.”

Odd that BS isn't encouraging independents to run with Democrats or as Democrats. Odd that he isn't encouraging voters to come to the polls in November to transform the country.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2018/06/07/daily-202-why-bernie-sanders-won-t-join-the-democratic-party/5b18850d30fb04775d88138c/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1313b70288a6

[lapucelle]

38. Last year here in Nassau County we had REPUBLICANS

running in Democratic primaries. Thank goodness we have closed primaries. If not, we might have Republicans "transforming" our county party from the outside. No thanks.

[oberliner]

51. I understand your point

And I don't completely disagree with you. I just think Bernie's quote ought to have included the last sentence.

[lapucelle]

55. ...

The OP concerns a quote about a poor beleaguered independent who "has to run against Democrats". It's right in the headline.

I was asking whether BS was referring to a hypothetical candidate who "has to run against Democrats" or someone specific who "has to run against Democrats".

At your behest, in two different responses, I included the part of the quote where BS encourages independents to vote in Democratic primaries, but neglects to remind them to vote in general elections.

The OP is asking a specific question about a specific part of the quote. I probably should have made it clearer by writing a headline more specific than

"Who is Sanders referencing when he extols "the independent who has to run against Democrats"

[oberliner]

76. To answer your question, Sanders is referencing himself

"Number one, in Vermont, since 1981 when I won election, defeating a Democrat, by the way. I have run as an Independent." is how he begins his response.

[ehrnst]

83. Actually since he's run for Senate, he runs as a Dem in primaries as for the financial resources

which pulls any resources from Democratic challengers, then refuses the nomination.

I guess you could say that he runs against any Democratic primary challenger.

[mcar]

46. Why should I want independents to

"transform" the Democratic party? Transform it into what, exactly?

[oberliner]

50. He is suggesting that it can be made more progressive

For instance, he had a huge influence in determining the Democratic Party platform at the convention this year due to his electoral success and popularity. Many have said it was the most progressive Democratic Party platform in a long time.

[mcar]

52. It is a very liberal platform

I'm not sure about the "huge" influence, since HRC'S own platform was very liberal. I also recall lots of complaining from the "progressives" involved.

Still don't know what that has to do with Independents being encouraged to take over the Democratic Party.

[oberliner]

56. Fair points

If you read the full interview, it seems like the thrust of what he is saying is that there are a growing number of people who identify as independents and he wants to try to make it so that those people can participate in one of the primaries. I think this is a reasonable position, although I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, I do think that Democrats should be the ones choosing the Democratic Party candidate, but on the other hand I feel like independents ought to be included in that process somehow as well.

What would you say about someone who is generally aligned with the Democratic Party but wishes to maintain their status as an independent?

[mcar]

65. I know many Independents who align with Democrats

My son is one. Needless to say, I am very fond of him.

That said, if he ain't a Democrat, I don't want him voting in Democratic primaries. You want to be involved in the decision making? Join the fricking party. Just spare me the being on the outside, by your own choice, but whining that you don't get to decide what the party you didn't join decides.

And please, spare me the "if we don't do what they want, they'll stamp their feet, hold their breath and maybe not vote for Democrats" threat (not saying you say that, just the general tenor of some of the arguments I see here). Surely, sentient adults who call themselves progressive are not that selfish, childish and petty.

[oberliner]

66. What about being to register as a Democrat on the day of the primary?

As opposed to being required to do so six months in advance (as is the case in NY, the example Bernie brings up in the interview).

Would you support allowing same day party registration to vote in the primary?

[mcar]

71. I don't know

My first thought is no, because it seems designed for ratfcking. I'd have to give it more thought.

[lapucelle]

74. In my county in NY, we had Republicans running in Democratic primaries last year.

I do not support same day party enrollment for the purpose of voting in a primary.

[oberliner]

77. That definitely is not right

But what about someone who is an independent who aligns primarily with Democrats?

[lapucelle]

80. That person has a decision to make:

Remain an independent and vote only in the GE or enroll with a party and have a say in choosing its standard bearers.

It is a responsibility of all voters to be proactive in seeking out eligibility rules an deadlines.

The rules and deadlines, by the way, are determined by state election law, not by the individual parties. Anyone seeking a change should begin by lobbying their state legislature, not by haranguing and scapegoating the Democratic party.

[George II]

59. He had some influence, not "huge" influence.

[oberliner]

60. Hillary Clinton selected six of the committee members and Sanders chose five.

So he definitely had significant influence (perhaps "huge" was on overstatement).

[brush]

57. What's glaringly obvious is that he didn't say "vote for Democrats".

Last edited Sat Jun 9, 2018, 09:13 PM - Edit history (1)

He says "transform the party".

Why leave it to interpretation? Is that on purpose?

If you want people to vote for Democrats, say "vote for Democrats".

Be absolutely clear on that, especially when we've got a Putin-loving, would-be dictator in the WH who needs to be contained by a Democratic taking of at lease the House in November.

There is no time for vague, maybe he meant vote for independents, maybe he meant vote for Dems statements.

He needs to just say loud and clear, "VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS".

[oberliner]

58. He definitely has his issues with the Democratic Party

Those are fair points that you make. He is not giving a full-throated endorsement of the Democratic Party, certainly.

[trueblue2007]

35. the DNC have him in the fold? Didn't the DNC say Only Dems will run in our party?

I agree with your comment.
BS isn't a Democrat. As an Independent he isn't allowed to run as a Democrat.
That should have been a rule in the 2016 election. My opinion anyway.

[sheshe2]

9. We understand you don't like us.

Got it Bernie. Let it go man, this is eating you up. THIS IS 2018 Bernie, stop fighting the primaries. It is over.

[Cha]

11. The feeling is mutual from my end. He's trying his

damnedest to make them "discouraged" .. does anybody ever mention that?

[sheshe2]

12. I agree.

I am tired of it all. Leave us be Bernie.

[Cha]

13. Yes, BS is still doing the Divisiveness in

2018.. Democrats are out there Winning and he comes up with this?!

He wanted President Obama primaried in 2012.. that didn't work out so well for him, either.

[peggysue2]

27. Does anyone ever mention that?

As soon as anyone does, you get a load of 'you can't win without us or stop replaying the 2016 election or we're going to pick up our marbles and go home. Wha-Wha.

I'm sick of Bernie and his constant grumpy old man complaints, that is absolutely designed to depress and discourage voters. Because if it ain't perfect you can't vote for it mentality. And this during a period of genuine national danger with the Trumpsters doing their Let's Destroy Everything schtick.

He needs to stop it, yesterday.

[Cha]

29. I'm way beyond that..

Mahalo, peggysue!

[uponit7771]

14. +1

[sheshe2]

17. .

[Tarheel_Dem]

10. I'm reminded of that old saying..."with friends like these......"

[uponit7771]

15. +1, after this statement I seriously doubt the friend part

[Cha]

16. I never doubted there it was ever there.

[sheshe2]

18. Yep.

[brer cat]

19. K&R

[stevenleser]

20. Hence the need for the rule that the DNC just passed

This is really akin to an abused spouse situation. Bernie thought he could keep slapping the Democratic Party around and the party would just keep taking it without consequences.

[R B Garr]

69. Yup, and talk about rigging the system....

I could give a detailed accounting of just who is rigging the system...it is so obvious.

[Gothmog]

21. I was so very glad when the Our Revolution candidates in Texas lost and lost badly

[NurseJackie]

22. Taken as a "stand-alone" statement, I have to be honest and point out the obvious...

‘I understand that. I am an independent. … I have had to run against Democrats'

Taken as a "stand-alone" statement, I have to be honest and point out the obvious: he certainly doesn't sound like someone who is an ACTUAL ally of Democrats or the Democratic party! But then, combined with all the previous smears and attacks on Democrats and the Democratic Party, it really helps to put things in perspective.

Not with Democrats, but against Democrats.

You nailed it!

All I'm trying to say here is that if you let someone speak long enough... and if you listen carefully to what they're saying... eventually their motives become clear. In this case, I have to say that his own words definitely do NOT paint a very flattering picture.

[Hortensis]

24. He's badmouthed Democrats for 40 years and more,

* voted with Democrats 95+% of the time for 27 years,

* been heartily despised by his colleagues -- including the Democratic Party's progressive caucuses -- for 27 years,

* run for congressional office as a Democrat several times and plans to do so again, and

* run as a Democrat for president, with NONE of his colleagues endorsing him.

If Sanders sees no dissonance in all that, it doesn't mean he's mentally ill, it means he's the kind of person who believes all his lies and unprincipled behaviors are justified. It's all clear to him.

[peggysue2]

30. Hummm . . .

If Sanders sees no dissonance in all that, it doesn't mean he's mentally ill, it means he's the kind of person who believes all his lies and unprincipled behaviors are justified. It's all clear to him.I

Who does that remind me of, anyone? Might be Emperor Babyfingers who just commented on his 'successful' G-7 meeting.

Birds of a feather, with right wings and left wings.

[SunSeeker]

25. K & R

[Me.]

26. Wow... What A Mendacious Ploy

another ambitiously obvious checkers player. Tax returns Sir, tax returns.

Oh and please... you, Jane and Nina...do start a 3rd party as OR isn't quite working out or maybe you and Stein could merge. Oh wait, two monumental egos in the same room will never work.

[shanny]

33. That always works well.

Or are we conveniently forgetting Florida 2000?

Funny how that only gets trotted out when casting blame at Nader or Stein, but never when recognizing the different behavior of Bernie.

Don't fret though, Everything is still All His Fault regardless.

[Me.]

36. Did They Run Under & Use The Dem Banner Too?

[shanny]

45. Did they run in the Democratic primary?

[Me.]

68. As Far As I Can Tell

only HRC and BS did

[shanny]

78. so what's your point

[oberliner]

28. I wonder why you cut out the last line of this quote

Which was:

"But I want you, as independents, to come into the Democratic primaries and transform the Democratic Party.’”

[NurseJackie]

34. Translation: "I hate Democrats and the Democratic party soooo much ...

"But I want you, as independents, to come into the Democratic primaries and transform the Democratic Party.’”

Translation: "I hate Democrats and the Democratic party soooo much that I refuse to be a member of the party in good standing... but don't try to read anything into my open hostility and contempt of the Democratic party... don't let that influence you... even though I won't join them... you should... and, uh, vote for Democrats, or something... yeah that's it."

I wonder why you cut out the last line of this quote

because it's meaningless. Taken in context of all that's come before... all that he's said... all that he's done... it has no meaning at all. Why bother quoting it. It just makes him look bad.

All I'm trying to say is that it's impossible to take seriously his urgings to vote for Democrats or support the Democratic party when he's so hostile and mendacious in the way he characterizes Democrats. We're not feeble, we're not corrupt, we're not ideologically bankrupt.

[oberliner]

41. It's part of the quote

He is making an argument in support of bringing more independents into the Democratic primary and helping to make the Democratic party more progressive.

[NurseJackie]

48. I can't take him seriously. I don't trust him.

[oberliner]

49. That's a reasonable position

However, I still think the quote should not have been truncated the way that it was. It's somewhat deceptive. If, after reading the full quote from Bernie, one concludes that he is off-base, then I certainly do respect that opinion.

[mcar]

53. Yep

[lapucelle]

40. The line where BS encourages independents to show up at Democratic primaries

to vote for candidates who "have to run against Democrats"? Here's the full quote:

"I understand that. I am an independent. … I have had to run against Democrats. But I want you, as independents, to come into the Democratic primaries and transform the Democratic Party.”

Odd that BS isn't encouraging independents to run with Democrats or as Democrats. Odd that he isn't encouraging voters to come to the polls in November to transform the country.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2018/06/07/daily-202-why-bernie-sanders-won-t-join-the-democratic-party/5b18850d30fb04775d88138c/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1313b70288a6

[oberliner]

42. It's part of the quote though

So you cut it out for a reason.

[lapucelle]

43. Please don't presume to explain to me what I did,

and don't impugn your motives to me. I'm sure you are an expert on many, many things, but this is clearly outside your ken.

[oberliner]

44. I'm just saying it's part of the quote, in the paragraph from the WaPo article you cited

You decided to cut off the last sentence of the quote/paragraph for some reason.

(You even added a close quotation mark that wasn't in the original which gives the impression that it's the end of the quote, even though it's not.)

[brush]

61. You keep posting this about the second sentence and I keep posting...

why didn't he say "vote for Democrats" not "transform the Democratic Party". Whatever that vaguness is supposed to mean.

With a Putin-loving, would-be dictator in the WH Sanders needs to be perfectly clear with his message.

Either say "vote for Democrats" or just stay the hell out of our politics.

[oberliner]

63. I only posted it once (edit to add: not true, I actually posted it twice)

And followed up with people who responded to that one post. You make a reasonable point with respect to opposing Sanders for not explicitly endorsing Democrats.

[shanny]

31. Someone needs a hobbyhorse.

[R B Garr]

70. Speaking of hobby horses, you are free to attack Republicans

for a change. Lots of actual material to chose from.

[ehrnst]

39. His own words. (nt)

[OnDoutside]

47. I will repeat what I said before : After 20 years of incessant Repug attacks on Hillary, it allowed

an "IN" for Sanders.

With (hopefully) a much younger opponent, with none of the baggage Hillary unfortunately had, any one of a number of whom have already adopted many of the centre left policies, I think Sanders will run out of steam. AND, his opponents are Democrats, which quite rightly will make a difference too.

[aikoaiko]

54. Any independent now that were forcing party membership for presidential runs.

[Squinch]

81. The raven flies at midnight. The brave have toes of steel.

[Mike Nelson]

62. I have said...

… I would have happily voted for either Bernie or Hillary. I don't believe he would have defeated Trump, though I would have done my bit and more...

… I've also said I still admire Bernie and would have liked him to remain a Democrat. Now, I'm sure it's better he left - and he is very likely going to be an opponent in 2020...

[donco]

64. Bernie Sanders will

be pushing 79 in 2020. I would prefer someone a bit younger to run against Pence.

[dembotoz]

67. In the county near me Bernie folks were treated very poorly

I was shocked to be honest with you.
We treated them as fellow Dems and most of them joined.
In the next county over?they did not join.
This party purity crap serves no purpose but trumps.

[Adrahil]

72. Himself. It's always about Bernie in the end. NT

[Historic NY]

73. He should run his own banner, with Nina Turner as his campaign manager.

[betsuni]

75. K&R

[still_one]

79. If he thinks that rhetoric is going to garner him a chance at 2020, he is delusional.

He may mislead and motivate some of his supporters to NOT vote for the Democratic nominee, and like Ralph Nader in 2000, along with the likes of Michael Moore, and Susan Sarandon, have only one purpose in life, to help republicans continue their war against America.

"Michael Moore, the filmmaker, lambasted the front-runners. ''A vote for Gore is a vote for Bush,'' he said. ''If they both believe in the same thing, wouldn't you want the original than the copy? Wouldn't you want Bush? Sirloin or hamburger? Which would you go for?''

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/15/us/the-2000-campaign-the-green-party-in-nader-supporters-math-gore-equals-bush.html

I f he has any presidential ambitions for 2020, they are gone.