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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe nonsense is starting to creep into DU posts AGAIN, so one more time, about Germany:
Since the 2016, I have seen posts about how here in Germany there is universal health insurance (there is not) and "free" university education (there is not), and all sorts of other kinds of "Valley of the Shmoon" aspects that make life just one long paradise, and all you have to do is get here to receive everything you want for free.
This is really getting boring.
If you REALLY believe this, just hop on a plane to any airport here, get off and ask for everything you want for free the rest of your life, and see how far you get.
*shmoo--if this was before your time, try wikipedia
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CaliforniaPeggy
(149,620 posts)Lionel and I are not looking for any of that on our visit, thank goodness!
DFW
(54,380 posts)We are looking forward to having you, too!
Actually, my bet is that NONE of those posting this nonsense believe it either. It just fits in with some narrative they are posting, so they like to say, "look at Germany, THEY have everything." Well, no, we don't.
Things are just funded differently here. But nothing is free except useless advice, and that's free in the States, too!
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,620 posts)Now that most of the planning is done, we are starting to look forward happily to the visit.
syringis
(5,101 posts)Je ne connais pas trop le système allemand mais je suppose qu'une partie des frais reste à charge des patients. C'est le cas chez nous. Tous les médocs ne sont pas remboursés non plus.
Pour ce qui reste à charge du patient, la quotité dépend de la situation personnelle. Revenus, invalidité, handicap, etc.
Pour l'université, pareil ici : pas de gratuité. Un minerval à payer +/- 1000 euros chaque année. Suivant la situation, les étudiants peuvent bénéficier d'une bourse et le minerval est réduit à +/- 200 €.
Il y a quand même les livres, transports, loyer éventuel d'un studio, etc. qui reste à charge des parents ou de l'étudiant.
Cela dit, si c'est parfois difficile à assumer, il existe des solutions et il faut bien le dire, c'est quand même vachement mieux qu'aux US où un étudiant se retrouve avec l'équivalent d'un crédit hypothécaire sur le dos, avant même d'entrer dans la vie active !
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)I lived there about two years, had a baby there, and the doctors actually, literally saved my life during the second birth.
Of course, in Germany there are co-pays. But everyone as far as I know has basic health insurance. We did when we lived there. There may be some people who are not covered, but I was never aware of that. Everyone just assumed we had the required health insurance. I also had a baby when we lived there. No problem.
syringis
(5,101 posts)I live in Belgium. It is +/- the same.
Basically, all EU citizens have, at least, a basic health insurance.
DFW
(54,380 posts)My wife worked with many of them. Some of the time, it was a case of illiteracy (Germany has that, too, even though no one wants to talk about it), and her charges couldn't read the paperwork.
It's nothing compared to the millions in the States with no coverage, but it certainly exists here.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)The insurance premium was taken out of our paycheck, but everyone that I know of was covered when we lived in Germany because they were required to have the insurance.
The co-pays were very small if they existed. I believe they were being introduced when we lived there.
Nothing is "free," but Germany has health insurance that is required and therefore "universal." At least it did when we lived there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany
DFW
(54,380 posts)Foreigners who move here are required to show health insurance of some sort, or they do not get a residence permit. If you have a German employer while you are here, they do the paperwork for you. If your employer is outside of Germany, as is mine, you are on your own. The Germans accepted my US insurance as proof of coverage. the fact that Blue Cross refuses just about every claim I submit is of no concern to them. Their bureaucrats are there to process paperwork, not get complicated. Germany "requires" health insurance of foreigners, NOT of German nationals. It tries to cover as many citizens as possible under their system. By and large, they succeed, but there are still several hundred thousand who fall through the bureaucratic cracks and have no health insurance at all.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)in some cases the same as they are here.
Of course it is not "free," but if you fill out the paperwork, they take the payments out of your paycheck and everyone is pretty much required to have it. At least that is how it was when I lived there.
Several hundred thousand out of a population of 82.67 million is pretty good. I'd say that is as universal as it gets. There are always people who refuse to be covered. But anyone who wants health insurance in Germany can get it. That is not true here. Not by any means.
https://www.google.com/search?q=germany+population&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
DFW
(54,380 posts)The Germans consider it scandalous that "as many as several hundred thousand" are without health insurance. To an American, that is a noble goal we could only hope to achieve.
To fill out the paperwork, you have to be fluent in both German and legalese, and not illiterate (more widespread than thought). The problem is mostly solved if you have a German employer. If your employer is elsewhere, as mine is, then nothing is solved. You have no local coverage unless you get "privat" and have no pre-existing condition. My pre-existing condition is what raised my quote to $35,000 a year. If you are unemployed and have neither the social documents nor the money and are under 65, then you are out of luck. If I hadn't picked up my wife's monthly premiums between age 60 (when she retired) and age 65, she would have been without coverage, including for the cancer that would have killed her but for dumb luck two years ago. I could afford it. She could not have. ALMOST anyone who wants health insurance here can get it. Not quite everyone.
But it's far more comprehensive than in the USA, that is for sure.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)So it was never a problem for us.
DFW
(54,380 posts)You had a lot of advantages I never will have. Luckily, I could afford to pick up the tab for my wife's insurance during the time she was unemployed, and if I hadn't, she would have been facing a quarter million euros in medical bills for her last cancer treatment. One good thing is that while insurance companies here will quickly refuse to cover things they consider "exotic," cancer treatment is not considered "exotic."
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Germany and cut my chin open (fell on a divider in the carpet) and they took me to an airport clinic and stitched me up for free. I don't know if they would do that in the US. Didn't ask for an insurance card. They did a pretty good job too. No scar.
DFW
(54,380 posts)They may or may not bill you. They are usually taxpayer funded. But one time, I tripped and fell at the Aachen train station, and briefly lost consciousness. My residence was still in Dallas at the time. I was attended to by the first aid team at that train station. I gave them my name and home address, and the bill for about €450 arrived in Dallas about a month later. About 4 years ago, I had an injury so painful, I needed an ambulance to pick me up where I was and get me to a hospital right here. The ride took about 20 minutes. The bill for €650 (almost $800) took less than two weeks to arrive. My so-called health "insurance" laughed at me when I submitted the bill.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)bill. I am sorry you were charged for something that was not your fault.
DFW
(54,380 posts)Like I said, the only thing here that is free is advice.
Polly Hennessey
(6,797 posts)Sounds like sour grapes with a grudge.
Hav
(5,969 posts)that health care is not free, these costs seem very reasonable. You have a driver, sometimes two plus medical personal in the ambulance and then treatment for 450$. I know these costs sting, but don't you think the problem is that your insurance didn't cover that? Did you compare these costs to those that would have occurred in the US? My brother was hit by a car, taken to the hospital by ambulance, treated there and released the same day, if I remember correctly. The costs for that alone were way above 30000. A couple of therapy sessions for something like 10000. If the lawyers weren't able to reduce these costs, there would have been no money left from the 50000 max insurance payed out (a ridiculously low cap if it had been a car insurance in Germany).
I know the general point is that it's not free but there can still be tremendous differences between two systems that are not free.
DFW
(54,380 posts)I had the flu, and practically collapsed right in Sen. McCaskill's office. Rather embarrassing! The Senate infirmary thought it was a heart attack (it wasn't) and called an ambulance to take me to GW hospital. The bill for that was around $900, and none other than Howard Dean called me few days later, saying he was collecting on a bill for $10,000 for an ambulance ride. If there's anyone who knows that subject, it's Howard.
We all know that almost all aspects of medical care are are billed way lower in Germany than in the States. In 2012, President Obama laid out a plan for budget deficit reduction, and he said he wanted up to two thirds of that to come out of inflated health care costs (Republicans squashed that idea, of course). When I got a medical bill for an emergency hospitalization in 2011, it was for $35,000 and change. It was "reduced" to $26,500 because it was going to be submitted to an insurance company. Private people always get billed higher in the USA. I still haven't figured that one out, but it's SOP apparently.
By the way, my insurance didn't cover the ambulance ride in the States, either. Frankly, they don't cover much of anything, except the costs of letters telling me why whatever I submitted to them wasn't covered. In Germany, I wasn't treated in the ambulance, (and it was €450, more like $600 at the time, not $450), as the suspicion was a kidney stone. I was driven to a urology clinic in Düsseldorf. When they determined I didn't have a kidney problem they helped me out to the street where my wife had driven to pick me up, and she drove me to an orthopedic clinic to check for spinal injury (correct this time). No charge for that ride.
Your general point that costs are lower here is true, and well-taken. My original point was that many seem to claim that we have single payer here, or that costs of medical care and education somehow materialize out of nowhere and are taken care of by the Tooth Fairy instead of by the population paying for them in one way or another. If you are treated here for some injury or ailment and don't get billed, you might not bear the cost, but the population of the country where the treatment took place DID bear the cost, in one way or another. The costs DID sting, as you pointed out, but on the other hand, I did not ask German taxpayers to foot my bill.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)The New Deal was a glorious time for everyone, when in fact it absolutely was not for POC.
European Social Democracy is the ultimate, when in fact they have plenty of issues, but as a society buy into the concept of commonwealth better than we do.
The thing that drives me nuts is the starry eyed lack of realism and ability to see things as they are and envision a better way forward past minefields.
DFW
(54,380 posts)It's hard to argue for improvement with someone who thinks things are perfect.
We know some "ethnic Germans" who came here from Kazakhstan after the Soviet Union broke up. They work hard and know that nothing is free. And yet they got plenty of help from the German government when they arrived with nothing. Guess who they vote for? The AfD because they think the AfD will "keep the foreigners out." What were THEY when the got off the plane here, saying "help me out, please?"
syringis
(5,101 posts)Another point is often missed :
A system, as good as it may be, cannot be applied everywhere. There are many factors to consider. Size of country, demographic density, homogeneity, etc.
Systems like ours can be an inspiration to find what will work best, but will be virtually inapplicable in the US.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,693 posts)DFW
(54,380 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,693 posts)
DFW
(54,380 posts)First piece of political satire I ever read--and still one of the best.
BannonsLiver
(16,387 posts)Btw, I’ll be visiting Germany for the first time in mid October for the first time. Really looking forward to it.
DFW
(54,380 posts)By American standards, it is a small area, but it is actually a very diverse place, a patchwork of Germanic cultures linked together by convenience and geography.
By the way, mid-October here can mean ANYthing, weather-wise. Be prepared!
BannonsLiver
(16,387 posts)Flying into Frankfurt (from DFW!) then Spending a bit of time in the Mosel Valley and working our way down into Bavaria. Also plan on some time in Salzburg. Time prevents us from getting up to Berlin, but we’ll do that on a future trip. Thanks for the weather tip. That lines up with what I’ve been told by other folks. I kind of like the sound of that actually!
DFW
(54,380 posts)I hope you chose Lufthansa! Their attitude toward customer service has (I'm told) improved recently, while that of American has gone downhill.
Berlin is worth a visit (and Potsdam!), but you are wise not to try to pack too much into a short time.
The Mosel Valley is pretty, good choice. The Rhein Valley between Mainz and Koblenz is spectacular. Hamburg is a must, but you can do the north next time, even include Amsterdam and Utrecht while you're in the neighborhood.
BannonsLiver
(16,387 posts)I’ve heard a lot of good things about Hamburg in particular.
We’re on American. When I started planning I wanted to fly Lufthansa, I’m kind of a commercial aviation fan so flying an international carrier is always intriguing to me, but it just didn’t work out on this trip fare wise. Hopefully it will next time. Unfortunately I’m aware of AAs issues but when the price is right you just have to take a leap of faith. I’m keeping my fingers crossed it won’t be a complete disaster.
DFW
(54,380 posts)Flying American isn't always a disaster.
Just when I'm on the plane, it seems.
Solly Mack
(90,767 posts)
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,693 posts)Does it have eyes? Wings? It's very shmoolike.
Solly Mack
(90,767 posts)They're very cool.
Autumn
(45,084 posts)Sophia4
(3,515 posts)far more people than here.
We lived on the economy, not on an American salary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany
DFW
(54,380 posts)However, it does NOT cover everyone, and everyone has to actively take care of their own paperwork. No one will do it for you, and it is NOT free. My wife is a German citizen, has had cancer twice, and was a social worker here before she retired. We have seen ALL the ins and outs by now
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)I have never claimed that German health insurance is free. The money was taken out of our paycheck. But it does pretty much cover everyone. I never knew of anyone there who was not covered. There probably are people who don't apply or maintain their policies, but that is the exception.
In particular, prenatal and postnatal care was excellent.
That's my experience. It was many years ago, but it was Kaiser Wilhelm who introduced the idea of a government managed healthcare system. Germany was the first to have it.
If someone wants additional care, or care that the German system thinks is experimental, they have to get special permission for it or pay for it themselves.
I know this because one of my children had terrible allergies and needed a medication that was not considered "approved," but the authorities approved it for us so it was covered.
But the frequency of rejected medical treatment in Germany is not unusual. American companies, in spite of the unconscionable amounts they sometimes charge, also refuse doctor-recommended treatments on occasion.
DFW
(54,380 posts)They are the ones who fall through the cracks. Addicts, social misfits, alcoholic jobless, I'm sure you can fill in the blanks. One of my wife's "clients" was an educated academic whose wife had left him lost his job and apartment, and basically became a street hobo. He showed up at her office on day, fat and reeking of booze, and she said no drunks, come back when you're sober. She said six months later a slender, well-spoken man showed up at her office, and said, "I bet you don't recognize me." He was the drunk from six months earlier, and had checked in to one charity rehab after another, determined to claw his way back. She was amazed, welcomed him into her program, and celebrated when he left, going back to work at a full time job for the first time in fifteen years. It's hard to believe modern Germany could have several hundred thousand such stories, but they do. Of course, if you don't frequent the undersides of bridges or subway tunnels after hours, you don't see most of these people, and who does that?
It was my wife's job, so we not only knew they were out there, we knew THEM. Her charges weren't always hard luck stories, either. Sometimes they were Russian immigrants who were looking for free handouts. If the social services sent them to my wife, they were expected to make an effort to get cleaned up and take work. Often, though they claimed German ethnicity in order to be let in, once here they suddenly didn't know enough German to get a job. One kid, maybe 22, always missed appointments and gave this as an excuse. One Friday, when she got home from work, she called him up from our place. She said, "I want you in my office at 8:00 Monday morning. Have you understood?" He started saying he didn't quite understand, and then she put me on the phone and told me to tell him in Russian what she had just said. He was completely startled, but had no more excuses when I asked him, again in Russian, if he had understood everything. He did, and this time, he was in her office at 8:00 on Monday morning. He turned out to finally be a success story, learned German and did get a job. Otherwise, he was destined for a wet blanket residence under a bridge, too.
One cruel aspect of the German health system refusing "experimental" treatments is that some of them are now quite standard, and really life-saving to someone like my wife. My wife's cancer treatments and operations left her with no lymph nodes on her left side and restless legs syndrome. She needs regular lymphatic draining to relieve swelling on her left side. Her insurance considers this "experimental" and won't cover it. So, too, with her restless legs syndrome, which she was afflicted with after her chemotherapy. It requires constant medication, or she can't sleep or even sit down.
These are costs I gladly bear, of course, as I can't bear to see her suffer. She gave her whole working life to help people who were down and out, got miserable pay, a monthly pension in three figures for her troubles, and this is what she gets in return. Don't get me wrong, we're glad her cancer treatments were paid for, but the system refuses to even recognize that the treatment can leave scarring that needs life-long attention. Just because not everyone needs it does not mean it's "experimental." Of course, the managers of the German health insurance system are under pressure to make savings where they can, and if they can cut corners here and there by claiming certain standard treatments are experimental, they will. All systems have their numbers crunchers, I'm afraid, and their attitude is NOT that of a social worker.
thucythucy
(8,052 posts)both for my own illnesses, and my partner's cancer, I'm puzzled by your repeated references to the fact that in Germany "everyone has to actively take care of their own paperwork."
As opposed to what?
Do you any idea how much paperwork is involved in getting quality health care, or sometimes any health care at all, in the US system? And that's for people (such as myself) who have access to health care to begin with.
Try scheduling an MRI sometime, or an appointment with a neurologist or neuro-oncologist. Aside from everything else, I get a good TEN PAGES of paperwork to fill out for EVERY appointment with a neuro-onc.
And just try finding someone in a hospital who will do that paperwork for you. Indeed, there's paperwork involved in getting a referral to a social worker to help you with your paperwork.
I have family in Germany, and there's no comparison to the difficulties faced by average people there with serious illness, as opposed to average people here. My German family are astounded when I relate what it's like getting treatment here. And I live in a blue state with very good care overall.
Not to mention the GOP is now busy stripping coverage for pre-existing conditions from the ACA.
Germany's system may not be perfect--no system is. But I'd trade it for what we have here in a heartbeat.
DFW
(54,380 posts)That's not what I meant. But I have seen posts that imply a belief that all you have to do is show up here and your every wish will be granted like Aladdin's Genie was doing your bidding, and all you had to do was rub the lamp.
My wife has had plenty of dealings with the German health care system with her cancer, and I wouldn't have wanted her to get sick in the USA with what she had. When I referred to paperwork, I didn't mean each individual illness, I meant getting properly registered in the first place, especially if you're a foreigner or work for a foreign employer. I know how bad it is in the States, and I know what a pain it is to schedule an appointment, though my doctors I see in Dallas know I live overseas, and try to accommodate me if I give them some advance notice. But I also know what an expensive pain it is for me to be treated here in Germany with my employer being in the USA. If I stop working, I'm SOL, and am stuck with appealing to Medicare to cover German bills, or paying the $35,000 a year premiums here (unless they have gone up--I didn't ask since 2011).
thucythucy
(8,052 posts)especially if you're a foreigner or work for a foreign employer" is onerous.
I am disabled, and have worked in the disability community, and know very many people with disabilities.
The paperwork involved in getting, and staying eligible for, SSI and SSDI is horrendous. Most people I know who rely on those systems don't do so for the monthly stipend (which is ridiculously low) but because it's the only way they can get health insurance. Stripping coverage for pre-existing conditions from the ACA will take us right back to that.
I know people who have been blind all their lives, who get periodically "reviewed" for eligibility. This involves producing medical records, getting statements from doctors, submitting checking and bank account statements, demonstrating that at no point did they have more than $2000 cash assets, etc. etc. And this is for American citizens, folks who were born here and have lived here all their lives.
I can't imagine what it would be like for a foreigner to try to get Medicare or Medicaid to pay their medical bills. Or to apply to SSI or SSDI. Probably it's not even possible.
I sympathize with your plight, and hope the best for your wife. But any comparison of the German health care system with ours I think shows Germany's is far superior--unless you're mega rich and can afford custom, premium care, which of course most of us can't.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)I have a good friend whose wife is from Germany but they have lived here for the last 25 years and a couple of years ago their daughter went to do her University in Germany and didn't spend a dime on tuition, and didn't have any special scholarship.
From Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Tuition_fees
Public universities in Germany are funded by the federal states and do not charge tuition fees. However, all enrolled students do have to pay a semester fee (Semesterbeitrag). This fee consists of an administrative fee for the university (only in some of the states), a fee for Studentenwerk, which is a statutory student affairs organization, a fee for the university's AStA (Allgemeiner Studentenausschuss, students' government) and Studentenschaft (students' union), at many universities a fee for public transportation, and possibly more fees as decided by the university's students' parliament (e.g., for a cooperation with a local theater granting free entry for students). Summed up, the semester fee usually ranges between €150 and €350.[65]
In 2005, the German Federal Constitutional Court ruled that a federal law prohibiting tuition fees was unconstitutional, on the grounds that education is the sole responsibility of the states. Following this ruling, seven federal states introduced tuition fees of €500 per semester in 2006 and 2007. Due to massive student protests and a citizens' initiative which collected 70,000 signatures against tuition fees, the government of Hesse was the first to reverse course before the state election in 2008; other state governments soon followed. Several parties which spoke out for tuition fees lost state elections. Bavaria in 2013 and Lower Saxony in 2014 were the last states to abolish tuition fees.[66][67]
I don't agree with the idea of "free University" for the same reason that I don't agree that they should give such high loans to students. I like Obama's idea of the first two years being mostly free and the last two funded with a combination of work study, scholarship and loans that can be forgiven by service (military, Peace Corp, taking jobs teaching in urban areas, etc). Completely free university encourages people who really shouldn't go to college to go anyway. My oldest daughter is a great scholar and had a great college experience, my youngest daughter got good grades and would have passed in college but she really didn't like to read books and do academic work so we encouraged her to pass it and she is very productive and happy, but she can always change her mind later.
Here is an article that states that not only is German higher education free but it has lots of negative effects, along the lines that I think would happen here:
https://qz.com/812200/is-free-college-possible-germany-shows-there-are-downsides-to-tuition-free-college/
But Peter-André Alt contends that being unable to charge tuition means universities are overcrowded and thinly stretched. Meanwhile, hard-pressed taxpayers are unfairly forced to fill the void, even if they don’t go to college or have kids who do.
. . .
Like other universities in Germany, Freie Universität was free of charge in 1963. In 2006, German universities were allowed to begin imposing tuition. Student protests and a political backlash followed, however, and by 2014 tuition was once again being eliminated at the public universities that educate the vast majority of German students. Except for small administrative fees—at Freie Universität, €304 per semester, or about $341, most of it for a public transit pass—most German undergraduates now pay no tuition.
DFW
(54,380 posts)Unless you can find lots of wikipedia articles, full with bold segments, stating that teachers and professors work for free, that construction companies put up schools for free, that cities provide utilities for free, and that booksellers print books for free, etc etc etc. none of that is free here in Germany any more than it is free in the USA.
Here it is taxpayer-funded, where in the USA it is mostly tuition-funded (plus grants, alumni contributions, etc etc). But it is not "free." It is just that the financial burden is born by other people than the students themselves.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)But of course if you are going to redefine terms that are used in every day normal use then you can easily consider everyone else's conformity to general use of terms as "nonsense".
If you were trying to make the point that posters don't give enough appreciation of the tax burden that Germans and most other Europeans carry to pay for their social contract then it was a poorly worded OP.
I think all DUers understand that all government services, including military, education, post office, and so on, are funded through tax revenue and that it doesn't have to be restated in every post.
However, if you are really stating that there are DUers who try to make the point that the programs get funded out of thin air I would be interested to see an example. The only person I am aware of that makes sweeping statements about adding hundreds of billions in social programs and never contends about the cost isn't a Democrat.
Will O Wisp
(9 posts)I was confused for a bit because my German friends went to college and enjoy health (and dental care!) regardless of their income. Of course it isn't free.
Nothing in life is. But, Germany has prioritized where the taxes collected go. Shame that the US cannot follow suit and shame on the DNC for thinking that it isn't possible.
yardwork
(61,608 posts)You might be surprised by what has been in the Democratic Party platform for a long time. (Not just since 2016.)
But there are real barriers to getting where we want to be. The first step is for Democrats to regain the majority in both houses of Congress. That gives us control of all the committees, which decide what bills even come up for discussion. If Democrats chaired the committees and had the majority vote on the committees, lots of progressive ideas would get a hearing and vote in Congress. Right now, the Republicans control the process. The Democrats literally have no power. That's how our system works.
Voltaire2
(13,037 posts)No shit, it ain't free. It is however universal. And it makes our 'system' look like a corrupt joke, which is easy, as our system is a corrupt joke.
thucythucy
(8,052 posts)Heaven forfend!
Here in 'Merica no one EVER asks you to fill out a form. Especially in the health care system. Why, the forms just fill themselves, it's so wonderful!
I'll add this just in case: 
Coventina
(27,120 posts)Is it possible to get residency?
If so, are you then covered by the social services? Or no?
(I'm not talking about citizenship, I know that would be much more difficult).
DFW
(54,380 posts)Many come for a few years of job experience, but few settle here permanently. Most of the ones who do, did so because they married one of the friendly natives, like I did.
It is possible to get residency, but have your paperwork in order. Have a job lined up (or have one elsewhere that will support you). Have health insurance you can show them (US health insurance is OK if current). If your employer is German, they will cover you with the social services. If not, the government will take your taxes and then tell you "you're on your own," as with me. I get nothing in the way of social services. No retirement consideration, no health care, nada. Just pay them a nice five figure sum of euros every three months, and then please don't bother them.
LEARN THE LANGUAGE. You're about as welcome here speaking only English as you'd be in Boston speaking only German. Plus, unless you're bringing €ten million and buying a house you will be living in, if you don't satisfy the language requirement, you don't get a residence permit. They are not looking to import hermits. Learn to speak the local language with close to native proficiency, and you will have no resentment at all. I was once at a work conference in Frankfurt when a German colleague made a derogatory comment (not an evil one) about "all the foreigners" around. I said, "hey, wait a minute!" He said, "you don't count, you're practically one of us." I don't FEEL German. I'm still American down to my shoelaces. But being accepted in the country where I live is vital to a sense of well-being.
Keep in mind that the USA is one of about three countries in the world that does NOT recognize residence-based taxation. Eritrea and some other African country are the other two. This means that even of you have a verifiable residence in another country, if you maintain your US citizenship, you have to file US taxes. If the taxes you pay in your residence country are higher than what you would have paid in the USA, you can usually offset, but this depends on whether or not there is a double-taxation treaty with the USA. Even then there can be complications, especially if there is income not covered by the Treaty. For example, I have a ROTH IRA on which I paid the taxes up front in the USA before moving to Germany. That retirement money is now tax-paid, mine free and clear in the USA under US law. The Germans want to tax it again (also illegal under the treaty), which I can't afford, so I haven't taken out a cent of it yet. If this is not changed, I'll have to move before retiring.
Coventina
(27,120 posts)I was curious because I have traveled there, and my husband goes there frequently due to his job.
He really likes it, and I really enjoyed my time there.
But, it doesn't sound like an easy ex-pat option.
Not that we're necessarily looking, but I'm just a curious person.
DFW
(54,380 posts)Few people who have actually made the move are fully aware of all the bureaucratic mess you have to go through to get permanent residence in a country that has all the people it needs. Obviously, any country welcomes a new arrival who has money to spend, promises never to be a financial burden on the local taxpayers (and has the funds and/or the current job to prove it), and speaks the local language well enough to fit in.
Germany can be a great place to visit. For that matter, IF you are prepared to put up with all the local idiosyncrasies and the weather, it is an easy place to live in as well. But, as with any country other than your own, when you move there, you accept life on their terms and play by their rules, not your own. If you can't handle that, you end up moving back home in no time flat. Besides German, I speak French, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, Catalan, Russian and Swedish. Except for Russia, I think I COULD live in any of those places. I choose to live in Germany because my wife is German, because the location is convenient for my work, and because I have made peace with the local quirks. That is the key to living anywhere, I think.
Hav
(5,969 posts)but it is also not a purely binary situation were all systems that are not free are the same. The costs for your university education come mostly later in life by paying taxes when you have a job thanks to the education you got. On the other side, the costs while you study are very low. I had a fee per semester of something below 100 Euros. That included free public transportation (not for the whole of Germany, but still a considerable area). For a time, there was a fee of 500 that was widely unpopular and that got abolished soon after that. Also, the state actually assists you financially with what is basically an interest-free loan while you study.
I'm fully aware that I pay for it now with my taxes so that the next generation can take advantage of that system. I'm ok with that, it's an investment in the future and it is what a society should be about. That surely beats having to worry about how to pay something like 30000 per semester while you study and have no full-time job.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Like 80 Euros per month for health-insurance for a regular young person. (~$95)
Or 500-600 Euros per semester for tuition. (~$590-$710)
DFW
(54,380 posts)Compared to the USA, those numbers are so low, they are the next thing to free. Health insurance is very complicated in Germany, with its "Kassen" and "privat" systems. Education in the USA is a very expensive thing to have to bear, and our students are often asked to bear most of that in the form of loans, whereas the rest of the costs in Germany are born by the taxpayers. Germany's system is far better, in my opinion, although the quality of education the German university students get is just as lopsided as it is in the USA. You can luck out and get a great education, just as you can land in an institution where the students are processed through as units of production, the professors are inaccessible, and everything (and everyone) is a number on a statistics chart.
My daughters grew up in Germany, are both German native language, and went to Gymnasium here. Both opted for a university education in the USA because they found the German institutions far too impersonal. I had inherited just enough to cover the cost, and blew every last cent of it on their US educations. I don't regret a cent of it, as their educations led them to good jobs, self-sufficiency, and, most important, self-confidence. The peace of mind that gave me is worth far than the money could ever have been. But it was a luxury most Americans never have.
TimeSnowDemos
(476 posts)While it's not untrue that Healthcare costs money in Germany - and everywhere - It IS true that no one in Germany need go without.
Universal healthcare, the terms of which are negotiated between governments and - essentially - unions is ubiquitous. In fact you can't even buy private health insurance unless you earn over something like 50,000 a year. And even then you still pay into the so called 'sickness fund'.
"Regular salaried employees must have public health insurance. Only public officers, self-employed people and employees with a large income, above c. €50,000.00 per year (adjusted yearly), may join the private system."
"Germany has a universal multi-payer system with two main types of health insurance. Germans are offered three mandatory health benefits, which are co-financed by employer and employee: health insurance, accident insurance, and long-term care insurance."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany
As for universities.
Public universities are tuition free.
"The idea that higher education in Germany is free is only half true. Students still have to pay an administration fee of €150-€250 a term, for which they get access to canteens and sports facilities, union membership and a student travel card. While there are no tuition fees for bachelor degrees at state universities, some states will charge students for so-called “non-consecutive” masters degrees, i.e. courses that don’t build on the subject they have studied as undergraduates. Those who drag their feet and take too many semesters to complete their courses also have to start coughing up in most of the Länder. All of Germany’s 109 private universities charge tuition fees. As a result, the amount of money Germany’s higher education sector earns from private sources now is still higher than it used to be 10 years ago, before fees were introduced and then scrapped – €2.8bn compared with €2.2bn in 2005."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/04/tuition-fees-germany-higher-education
So yes, public German Universities are free to cheap, like in the rest of Europe. Remember that 'free' means you pay with your taxes.
WoonTars
(694 posts)Which is just another reason why living in the UK is better than living in Germany.
QC
(26,371 posts)
kcr
(15,317 posts)that liberals in America aren't too stupid to understand how taxes work. So knock it off with the right wing talking points. You don't know what you're talking about.
DFW
(54,380 posts)Aren't enough to know what I''m talking about.
Right wing talking points, sure. Zum Befehl! Nicht mal ein netter Versuch.
WoonTars
(694 posts)N/t
My siblings are still there. One of my daughters is there. All my cousins are there. My job and income are still there. My health insurance is there (or, it pretends to be, anyway). The EU still does X gazillion dollars in trade with the USA, and the USA still has who knows how many thousands of military here, has nuclear missiles stationed less than 250 miles from where I live. I am paid in dollars but live in Euros, am station chief for a US entity here. When Americans come to my area to give speeches or interact with local politicians, I sometime translate, whether it's Milo Yellow Hair of Howard Dean.
That's a partial list, but maybe it'll give you an idea?
hunter
(38,312 posts)... so it may have more to do with pre-existing conditions than living in Germany. My wife and I were uninsurable before Obama care. My wife once ran out a COBRA to the bitter end and then we were on the waiting list for our state's high risk pool in the midst of chemo, which was utterly terrifying. Fortunately she was accepted to the state program before serious harm came of it.
My long time doctor has retired, probably thinking good riddance to all the insurance crap he's had to deal with over the years. I haven't found a new doctor.
Sometimes I just say "fuck it" and pay cash at the urgent care, because dealing with the insurance company isn't worth the time or effort for what they *might* possibly reimburse, but I also ignore stuff that may kill me someday.
My wife's in the midst of changing insurance at work and I'm certain it's going to be yet another crap-fest, giving me a new list of doctors who are unenthusiastic about their work, if they'll agree to see me at all.
DFW
(54,380 posts)At least I was off the hook for the monthly payments, but it took a while for her new insurance (65 and over) to kick in. She is, of course, a second-class insured citizen ("Kassenpatient" ), but she has been going to the same doctors for years now, and knows the ropes. Bring the receptionist-nurses a bottle of champagne at Christmas time, brings them little boxes of goodies I pick up in Belgium or France, knows how to get them to stay on the phone when she calls up and says, "Düsseldorf, we have a problem." I still pick up the "exotic" stuff German insurance refuses to cover, like lymphatic draining and medicine for restless legs, but she is now covered for all the regular and drastic stuff. After two rounds with cancer, we hope she's seen enough of that for one lifetime.
Being over here most of the time, I pay up front for everything, and submit it to Blue Cross, who systematically says no, or "we can't understand it." But they usually say that when I submit bills incurred while in the States, too, so what else is new? At least here in Germany, where I pay income tax, I can deduct medical bills that were not reimbursed. Blue Cross should ask John Grisham for a waiver of copyright infringement, and rename themselves "Great Benefit" from his novel "The Rainmaker."
Since I have no insurance in Germany ($35,000 a year, gimme a break!), ironically, I am automatically classed as "privat," or first class, and get an appointment whenever I want. Because of this, I am still alive. The first time I suspected a cardiac issue, I looked in the yellow pages, and called up a cardiologist in our town requesting an appointment. I had been with my wife in Italy, and felt twinges in my shoulder and shortness of breath while climbing hills. Both my dad's parents had died of heart attacks before the age of 70, so I had read up on danger signs. When we got back to Germany from Italy, I called. They said they had an opening in two months.
I said I was from the USA passing through and would pay cash up front. Suddenly they had an opening that afternoon. They noticed right away something wasn't right, and asked me to come back in 2 days for a stress-echo test. I did, and the doc said, in my office, NOW. He said he was calling up to the cardiac clinic in Essen, where I was to go THAT MINUTE. My wife drove me up there (half an hour), and the next day, the specialist put in 2 stents, called me the luckiest man in Europe that day, and said just one thing in English: "just in time." I had 2 coronary arteries 99% blocked, and he said I could have dropped dead at any second. Had I accepted the appointment for 2 months in the future, I would already have been dead for most of them. I have low blood pressure, so I didn't have the chest pain warning signs that people with higher blood pressure would have had long before I noticed my symptoms.
The cardiologist I landed with is apparently (I didn't know this before I called them up) the top guy in the area. I told my wife she should sign up as a patient there, just in case she ever needed it, although her heart is fine. She went there, but got (almost politely) tossed out on her ear because she is on regular German insurance, and they had enough patients on that insurance system. I was furious, but I can't ignore that the guy saved my sorry ass from dying 14 years ago, so I shut up and my wife goes elsewhere.
kcr
(15,317 posts)Because guess what thinking liberals just want everything for free because they're stupid is?
Hekate
(90,690 posts)...and who doesn't
DFW
(54,380 posts)Some have something to contribute, some listen, some just know better because, well BECAUSE!
The usual. Plus ça change, as Marcel Marceau might have said........
appalachiablue
(41,132 posts)'I have seen posts about how here in Germany there is universal health insurance (there is not) and "free" university education (there is not), and all sorts of other kinds of "Valley of the Shmoon" aspects that make life just one long paradise, and all you have to do is get here to receive everything you want for free.'
_____
I've not seen posts in several years here claiming that college and healthcare are "free" and "paradise," in the realm of 'fairies,' unicorns or rainbows. Many people on DU are aware of the situation outside the US regarding university education and health care, particularly in Europe, Canada and other developed countries. It's not a secret.
As a teen I knew students who attended the University of Hamburg, and I travelled to Germany several times to Erlangen, Munich, Frankfurt and Strasbourg. The UK system I know from a semester at Cambridge, my roommate went to the Univ, of Freiburg, we both studied and speak German but my French is better; also another close friend attended university in Bordeaux, France and stayed on to become a professor.
In the US, two major systems, college education and health care have been problems especially financially, for decades. Students in Canada and European countries pay immensely less than we do, and the same for health coverage/insurance. In the UK, France, Italy and Nordic systems, students usually pay for housing and fees which are nominal compared to the US.
I've never heard of college students in those countries graduating with debt, where here it's in the range of 50-300K and more for an undergraduate degree, and 400-600K and more for medical school training. Also important is that in the US, student loan debt can never be discharged in bankruptcy.
Citizens in countries with universal health care also don't receive hospital bills for a weekend broken arm or ankle for 10K, or lose their house over a more serious condition or illness, as I saw one Danish man confirm in disbelief when asked.
In my family, of the four generations who attended college, not one person graduated or left with any student debt whatsoever, including those who went to medical and graduate school.
The only relative who is slightly different is a millennial who began college in 2008. But through hard work part-time, grants and relatives like me paying down loans, they will graduate not only with honors, but with only 5K debt.
Prior to the 1980s, public colleges and universities were mostly affordable and supported largely by taxes. But that came to an end with Reagan's tax cuts (make those dirty, protesting Hippie kids pay for it! with debt). That era began the steadily rising higher education costs being transferred to students and families with no end in sight. It has to change, like the robbing, inefficient corporate American health insurance system.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)The biggest obstacle, of course, would be becoming fluent in German. I was very struck at how similar Germany is to the USA, which should not be too surprising given our national language almost WAS German, but English won out in the vote.
I'd also have to find lodging cheap enough for me, which would be a small condo I'm guessing. Thanks again for a great visit and introducing me to Ingo. He was a great tour guide of Berlin and of the Potsdam palaces. We ate Bavarian in Berlin lol and at a nice restaurant near Potsdam for lunch after the tour. Such a great guy.