General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums***Manafort just filed this response to Mueller's call for a hearing on his bail terms***
. . . due to the actions that led to the witness tampering charges, for which a superseding indictment was filed today.
The hearing, which will determine if his bail terms are modified or revoked, is set for June 15.
In the 2nd article below, the authors explain why it is so significant that the Grand Jury just indicted Manafort for the same charges that are being considered in the hearing. For the judge to rule against Manafort in the bail hearing, she only needs to find probable cause. The Grand Jury has already found probable cause when they indicted him for these same charges. Technically, the judge could make a different ruling . . . but that seems unlikely.
The indictment seems to have increased the chances that Manafort will be awaiting trial in jail.
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4500006/6-8-18-Manafort-Response.pdf
BACKGROUND:
https://www.justsecurity.org/57518/thin-evidence-manaforts-witness-tampering-meets-standard/
By Alex Whiting and Renato Mariotti
We disagree. First, in our view, Rosenzweig mis-analyzes the available facts and assesses them against the wrong legal standard. When all of the evidence is considered together, rather than piecemeal, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that Manafort sought to persuade witnesses in his case to testify falsely. It is frankly naïve to think otherwise. Second, regardless of how one ultimately views the strength of the tampering evidence, the suggestion that Mueller could be panicking is completely unwarranted. Any responsible prosecutor would bring this kind of evidence of tampering to the courts attention in precisely the manner that Mueller has, regardless of the circumstances, in order to dissuade Manafort from additional attempts to obstruct justice. The fact that Mueller has brought this motion says absolutely nothing about where things stand in his larger investigation.
https://www.justsecurity.org/57572/grand-jury-thinks-manafort-obstructed-justice-bail-judge/
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)This is his reply to the motion to revoke the terms of his release.
This is not a brief on the charges in the indictment.
I skimmed it over, and it doesnt seem to address the testimonial evidence of one of the contactees, but instead grabs some of the low-hanging fruit.
The standard here, unfortunately for Manafort, is whether there is merely probable cause.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)on the new charges.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)There are two different and separate things going on with the witness tampering.
1. Mueller filed a motion to revoke his terms of release. In order to do that all that has to be proven is that there was probable cause to believe he had. In other words, the burden on Mueller is to show that there is substantial reason to believe he had. Mueller's burden is NOT to prove that Manafort is, in fact, guilty of it.
2. In order to obviate the counterargument of "why didn't you indict him for it then", at the same time that Mueller filed the motion to revoke, he ALSO then went to the grand jury and got the witness tampering counts added to Manafort's charges. That's merely part of the superceding indictment, and we are nowhere near the stage where Manafort would responding to those charges. Those charges are just a few hours old. In that context, Manafort's burden would be to (a) show that even if all the evidence were taken as true, those facts would not amount to the crime charged, or (b) ultimately persuade a jury that Mueller has not proven his case of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
So, yes, "probable cause" is the standard to (a) revoke bail, or (b) return an indictment. But in the context of these two different things, the burdens of proof are very different in terms of "what is this opposing motion attempting to accomplish". Mueller's burden is much, much lighter here on Thing 1, than it would be if we were talking about the charges filed today (Thing 2).
And the reason for that is that we are not talking about a conviction standard of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. We are talking about violation of what amounts to an agreement.
The Eighth Amendment provides that "excessive bail" may not be imposed. Outright denial of bail requires a lot. However, Manafort here has not been denied bail. He was on bail, but Mueller alleges (credibly, I might add, but I like to analyze these things objectively) that there is probable cause to believe he violated the conditions of the bail that Manafort already had.
To do that, Mueller does not need to prove a full-blown case of witness tampering. He only has to show that it sure does look a lot like Manafort did. Manafort's guilt or lack thereof on the actual charge is not what matters.
Incidentally, many have opined that Mueller is successful, then Manafort will go directly to jail. That's not necessarily the case. An outright denial of bail requires a showing of danger to the community. While Mueller makes a go of that in his brief, it is important to remember that violation of conditions of bail CAN result in more restrictive conditions, such that the community danger is addressed.
Things like this can look more like a form of house arrest. For example, if the problem is "Manafort is attempting to communicate with witnesses" then the answer could be, "okay, we take away all of his communication devices, bar him from using electronic communication devices, whether his or not, etc..
This is the typical "Mafia Don" approach. You get them on a highly restrictive release, where they are essentially limited to vocal communication to people within earshot. THEN, in parallel with that, on the strength of the pending indictment, you also get warrants to bug the shit out of him, wire his schnauzer, turn some of the people with whom he communicates (as appears has already happened to some extent), and you let him fuck up again.
This is an organized crime investigation. I'm not at all suggesting that a scenario like the one above is the one that will play out. But that is not an uncommon scenario.
The opening paragraph of Manafort's brief is somewhat suggestive of what might be an appropriate (in Manafort's view) outcome if he loses on the motion:
" Importantly, the Courts Release Order does
not order Mr. Manafort to stay away from any individuals, nor is a do not
contact list attached to the Release Order, because there is no basis for imposing such conditions. "
That's a great sentence right there. Because what it says is, "Okay, look, even if Mueller proves his point, then the problem was that the Release Order needed a 'do not contact' list and a 'stay away' list. So if you find in his favor, then the remedy is a new Release Order that has them."
Because you don't like to lead with your chin and put it the way I said it, that's how you end up with sentences like that one in Manafort's brief. It's a good jumping off point for determining the remedy if Mueller prevails on the motion.
It's a well-done brief, but it's somewhat misdirective and doesn't fully address the evidence. In the Mueller brief, a variety of examples are cited of "types of activities which constitute witness tampering. Manafort's brief addresses those cases, but reaches the conclusion:
"The case law relied on by the Special Counsel confirms
that a defendant must do much more than communicate his views of a
case and evidence to others to sustain an attempted witness
tampering charge."
Well, yes, but sustaining a charge is not the point here. The point here is whether there is substantial reason to believe he did.
The really disappointing part of the brief is attempting to say, "Witness? What witness? I don't see any witness here" in relation to the testimonial evidence from the party who understood that Manafort was trying to suborn perjury. It's a tough nut to crack when your point is that "none of the communications objectively say that" when you have someone who is testifying that's what they understood from their end of the communication.
Manafort's brief leaves that poor witness stranded in a footnote:
"It is clear from the Special Agents declaration
that the agent spoke with the person on the other end of the call (i.e., D1).
(See Doc. 315-2, ¶¶ 19, 20). Instead of identifying what was
said exactly for purposes of this motion, however,
the Special Counsel instead states what D1 understood
from Mr. Manaforts brief text messages
not the telephone call that occurred.
Id. at ¶19. The Special Agent also states what D1 opines,
i.e., what D1 believes Mr. Manafort knew."
Well, yes, that's all well and good. The problem is twofold. First, if Mueller was relying on what D1 said Manafort said - i.e. "D1 says that Manafort said X", then that would be another kettle of fish. But what Mueller says is "Manafort communicated with D1, and this is what D1 understood from the communication."
What, after all, is "communication"? It is the transmission of words, text, etc., to another person for the purpose of getting them to understand something.
If (a) Manafort communicated to D1, and (b) D1 "understood" that Manafort was asking him to lie, then IMHO there is probable cause to believe that's what Manafort was trying to do. Does it prove Manafort was, in fact, intending to do that? No, it doesn't. But for the purposes of the current motions, it doesn't have to prove that.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)not disagreeing with you about the original inaccuracy in the post title.
After today, it seems that much more likely now that the judge will rule against Manafort in the bail hearing. A Grand Jury has already found probable cause in issuing the indictment. It seems likely that the judge will, too.
https://www.justsecurity.org/57572/grand-jury-thinks-manafort-obstructed-justice-bail-judge/
Third, and this is important in the short term, the indictment by the Grand Jury is significant for the bail proceeding next week. Why? Because as Renato and I detailed in our piece yesterday, for bail purposes the judge must only determine by the relatively low probable cause standard that Manafort attempted to tamper with witnesses. Well, now the Grand Jury has itself determined that Manafort did just this. By what standard? Probable cause, the exact same standard the judge will need to apply next week. The judge will not be bound by the Grand Jury finding, but it sure would be odd for her to ignore it and reach a different conclusion. Remember that even if the judge reaches the same conclusion, detention does not necessarily follow. It only triggers a rebuttable presumption of detention, but it will be up to Manaforts lawyers to persuade the judge that there exist conditions that could ensure that Manafort will stop committing further crimes, including further obstruction of justice. That could be a tough sell.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It's not as if Mueller can waltz in and say that "Hey, the grand jury found probable cause, so we don't have to do this hearing!"
That paragraph is a little bit too breezy in suggesting that.
In making a legal determination on these motions as to whether or not there is probable cause, the judge is not actually going to give two shits whether the grand jury did or not. This line here is just nuts:
"but it sure would be odd for her to ignore it and reach a different conclusion"
It would not be odd in the least for a judge to do that. Unlike a grand jury, which spits out a factual conclusion based on who knows what (and which could be a bigger bag than the minimal evidence advanced for the purpose of this brief), this judge is going to have to issue a reasoned opinion on the subject. Does that happen? Sure it does.
I mean sure, that sounds like something a prosecutor would say.
The only thing that would make it "odd" would be if it were not the case that federal prosecutions aren't lightly brought in the first place. A simpler way of saying that is "well, most of the time, the sumbitch is actually guilty" so it's not surprising that you get a convergence of opinions over a large sample space.
Mueller's indictment is a good move for avoiding the lack of one being used against the prosecution, but IMHO it doesn't really move the ball perceptibly on the motion to revoke.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)does and will effect a judge's opinion on bail.
In fact, when a new higher charge is laid, in some jurisdictions like mine, bail may be revoked without cause and a fresh bail hearing takes place.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Mueller hasnt filed a motion to lock him up. Hes filed a motion to revoke bail. The likely outcome is a much more onerous set of conditions. But that can all be negotiated, and provides a new set of incentives.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)or will her opinion have to be based on the briefs alone?
Yes - that makes sense. And my personal opinion is that this sumbitch is guilty as hell, and I hope the judge can figure that out.
Mr. Ected
(9,670 posts)We all benefit from analyses like this.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Manafort, a real bombshell with direct link to Trump and Russia and the election, Manaforts's flight risk and further tampering is indeed "probable".
🔐 him up! His testimony is the key to Shitler's castle.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)I go out of my way to read your posts and take notes in case there is a pop quiz.
I did have one question. In your 6th paragraph you stated
Incidentally, many have opined that Mueller is successful, then Manafort will go directly to jail. That's not necessarily the case. An outright denial of bail requires a showing of danger to the community. While Mueller makes a go of that in his brief, it is important to remember that violation of conditions of bail CAN result in more restrictive conditions, such that the community danger is addressed.
Is it not true that the question of whether or not the defendant is likely to show for trial is also a factor in approving bail.
Would it not also be possible to argue that the fact that the defendant is so reckless about adhering to the rules of his bail that it reflects a degree of desperation that there is now good reason to believe that he will attempt to leave the country (his associate from Russia was also just indicted) or that he might commit suicide or that he might face an attempt on his life which isn't that unreasonable given the recent attack in England.
Finally can't bail be revoked simply because the defendant continually breaks the condition of bail and is showing contempt for the process?
Manafort's response seems to be, "Well, yeah, I secretly communicated with people relevant to the upcoming trial, but only briefly!"
IMHO, the lawyer is doing his best with a bad set of facts for his client.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Yeah, I forgot to mention in my critique of it above that you have to play the cards you are dealt.
There is nothing more frustrating in the practice of law than trying to get a brief done when the facts are refusing to cooperate with you.
When that happens, you try your best to beat them into submission. As posted above, they did manage to fence off one of the most dangerous facts by confining it to a footnote. D1's testimony, among the constellation of facts here, is a particularly bright star.
dweller
(23,632 posts)jberryhill chimes in and points out as a reminder the simplest relevant fact, as in post 5 above
"This is an organized crime investigation."
eye one the prize
👍🏻
grantcart
(53,061 posts)is backed up with insightful comments from an informed DU export.
Everyone should hurry before it gets alerted on and disappears
BobTheSubgenius
(11,563 posts)I can't...because I don't. Venal, rapacious, opportunistic maggot.