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Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 12:10 PM Jun 2018

Sanders isn't the only one to be wary of in 2020.

Last edited Sat Jun 9, 2018, 05:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Anyone, such as Tim Ryan, who promotes the narrative that Democrats need to shy away from "identity politics" (or that Democrats need to go out of their way to appeal to a specific subset of the working class) will not have my support in the primary (in the general, of course, I'm willing to hold my nose and vote for whoever I need to vote for). And I can only hope we don't nominate someone who placates those who promote such nonsense.

Racism and sexism should be front and center. Not just because it's a way to inspire the base, but primarily because it's what is called for at this time in history. Actually, it's been what's called for ever since Nixon and his Southern Strategy.

Republicans garner support because of racism and sexism, so some make the mistake of thinking Democrats should shy away from discussing racism and sexism. That is, to put it bluntly, moronic. We must be proud and loud in our anti-racism and anti-sexism.

***I'm editing this post to provide another link since so many insist on echoing right wing talking points about Democrats losing because they focus on "identity politics." Link: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/16/13972394/most-common-words-hillary-clinton-speech.

And this is from an article Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote in 2012:

Confronted by the thoroughly racialized backlash to Obama’s presidency, a stranger to American politics might conclude that Obama provoked the response by relentlessly pushing an agenda of radical racial reform. Hardly. Daniel Gillion, a political scientist at the University of Pennsylvania who studies race and politics, examined the Public Papers of the Presidents, a compilation of nearly all public presidential utterances—­proclamations, news-conference remarks, executive orders—and found that in his first two years as president, Obama talked less about race than any other Democratic president since 1961. Obama’s racial strategy has been, if anything, the opposite of radical: he declines to use his bully pulpit to address racism, using it instead to engage in the time-honored tradition of black self-hectoring, railing against the perceived failings of black culture.


As usual, the right wing talking points (and Democrats who subscribe to them) are wrong.
112 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Sanders isn't the only one to be wary of in 2020. (Original Post) Garrett78 Jun 2018 OP
To be "wary of"? Truly? guillaumeb Jun 2018 #1
I'll momentarily play your game: Garrett78 Jun 2018 #3
It became a game when you wrote your title. guillaumeb Jun 2018 #5
You weren't addressing the topic. I placated you nonetheless. I'm done now. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #6
Yeah, I'm alwys wary of someone who talks Autumn Jun 2018 #7
Not addressing the topic, but thanks. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #12
Wasn't addressing you but thanks anyway. Autumn Jun 2018 #15
If you can't stick within the ridiculous framing Voltaire2 Jun 2018 #22
A one way discussion on one persons set up talking points is limited discussion Autumn Jun 2018 #24
Well said. Nothing to add to that. eom guillaumeb Jun 2018 #66
Let's not be "wary" of anybody. The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2018 #2
If Dems bash 'identity politics' or 'political correctness', I'm going to be wary. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #4
I'm going to be wary of Dems who bash "single payer" Jim Lane Jun 2018 #59
I don't see a conflict marylandblue Jun 2018 #8
That's a false dichotomy. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #11
What do you mean by false dichotomy here? marylandblue Jun 2018 #20
I'm talking about "social liberals and economic liberals." Garrett78 Jun 2018 #26
I am saying the opposite of ignoring identity politics marylandblue Jun 2018 #28
DU rec...nt SidDithers Jun 2018 #9
He's A Very Ambitious Self Avowed Corporatist Me. Jun 2018 #10
Ha! NurseJackie Jun 2018 #86
You be wary, I'll be hopeful. bluedigger Jun 2018 #13
Thank you. Qutzupalotl Jun 2018 #14
Like standing *for* policies that address systemic racism and sexism. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #17
That's getting closer, but still an "against." Qutzupalotl Jun 2018 #23
This is a white supremacist, patriarchal society. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #27
You will note I did not say we should shy away Qutzupalotl Jun 2018 #38
Again, the platforms I referenced do just that. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #39
I want policies addressing racism and sexism to be front and center. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #16
So do I. Tavarious Jackson Jun 2018 #18
They aren't separate from economic issues, of course. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #19
They're called Civil Rights. NY_20th Jun 2018 #21
I like you! Squinch Jun 2018 #31
Well, gosh. NY_20th Jun 2018 #33
Welcome! Glad you're here! Squinch Jun 2018 #35
"Identity Politics" is a right-wing smear framing of Civil Rights. And Dems support Civil Rights emulatorloo Jun 2018 #43
Yes! robbedvoter Jun 2018 #97
I'm beyond wary of anyone who dismisses Civil Rights. Cha Jun 2018 #79
Appealing to whites is the ultimate identity politics. johnnyrocket Jun 2018 #25
"Racism and sexism should be front and center. " Ferrets are Cool Jun 2018 #29
Agree on that True Blue American Jun 2018 #32
"Identity politics" isn't what Democrats have been leading with. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #37
Well said and thank you for saying it emulatorloo Jun 2018 #45
Yes,it is. True Blue American Jun 2018 #48
I can't stop you from buying into right wing talking points. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #55
The narrative is that the veryleft will attract independent s ismnotwasm Jun 2018 #30
Moderate Democrat True Blue American Jun 2018 #34
I'm willing to compromise in 2020 if I HAVE to DFW Jun 2018 #36
Good for Howard Dean. True Blue American Jun 2018 #49
HRC Crutchez_CuiBono Jun 2018 #54
No ono without a D behind their title will get my vote leftofcool Jun 2018 #40
For the uncompromising purists out there, keep one thing in mind... world wide wally Jun 2018 #41
I don't subscribe to "lesser of two evils" rhetoric. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #42
That is my point world wide wally Jun 2018 #50
I vote for the person who will do the best job and will protect vulnerable citizens emulatorloo Jun 2018 #44
Looking at the replies, you've obviously touched some nerves. Good! NurseJackie Jun 2018 #46
I like Joe Biden Gothmog Jun 2018 #47
"Wary"? lol shanny Jun 2018 #51
In your best Elmer Fudd voice say thewhollytoast Jun 2018 #52
... shanny Jun 2018 #53
Hahaha...Soshawists progressoid Jun 2018 #99
Yes, because the "economic anxiety"/win over Trump voters argument is dangerous. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #56
There's no economic anxiety? shanny Jun 2018 #60
That isn't the argument. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #61
I submit that Democrats need to focus on issues shanny Jun 2018 #63
Combating systemic racism and sexism does improve the lives of all Americans. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #67
There's a joke about a billionaire, a black guy and a white guy shanny Jun 2018 #69
Again, see the links I've provided. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #71
The "base" is--at best--30% of American voters. shanny Jun 2018 #73
The Democratic nominee's economic proposals were light years ahead NY_20th Jun 2018 #74
"Ahead"? What does that mean? shanny Jun 2018 #89
further forward. Leading. NY_20th Jun 2018 #91
lol shanny Jun 2018 #92
And here I was trying to be lighthearted with you, NY_20th Jun 2018 #95
Regarding those Obama-Trump voters: Garrett78 Jun 2018 #76
If it's in our platform I'm good with it. I don't think the same message should be front and center jalan48 Jun 2018 #57
you are misconstruing what Sanders was saying, and maybe should take his qoutes in context, JCanete Jun 2018 #58
I didn't quote Sanders, so I couldn't have taken a quote out of context. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #64
first, not disproven by study after study. Asking people why they voted for somebody is not JCanete Jun 2018 #72
Here are some links: Garrett78 Jun 2018 #75
Mahalo for the links, Garrett.. and Cha Jun 2018 #77
Hopefully you saw the OP after I edited it to include a couple more links. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #78
I will check it out when I get back.. meanwhile I posted Cha Jun 2018 #80
Thank you for an excellent OP and for the links and research. I'm SO SICK of the LIES... NurseJackie Jun 2018 #81
It's infected the likes of Tim Ryan, as well. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #82
just to be clear, no dispute here on what media in general, but specifically the right wing, is JCanete Jun 2018 #83
Dems already have a message that should (and does) appeal to the majority of working class folks. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #84
Its not gotten dead wrong. You said it right there. Racism is a tool. It has always been a tool. It JCanete Jun 2018 #85
Again, the Democratic message is already heavily geared toward the working class. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #87
Of course, you fire up the base. It would be nice to get the base and then enough other voters to JCanete Jun 2018 #88
And yet a majority of working class folks are voting for Democrats. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #90
the issue with this argument is that there are a lot of reasons why people of color JCanete Jun 2018 #93
Anyone who, at this point, thinks Republicans are better on economics is a damn fool. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #94
heh...I'd say drastically misinformed, and that there are reasons, a part of which we are to blame, JCanete Jun 2018 #96
What's there to be wary of regarding Bernie? He's represents the best of progressive ideals. InAbLuEsTaTe Jun 2018 #62
Where did you get this from? NY_20th Jun 2018 #65
So Bernie is 1 of the top Senators, serving in a "STRONG DEM" state according to your source, InAbLuEsTaTe Jun 2018 #68
Please provide a link for this. NY_20th Jun 2018 #70
Are you making that up, or do you have a source to back up your claim?... SidDithers Jun 2018 #98
No, I did see that somewhere... will look for it again. InAbLuEsTaTe Jun 2018 #101
FYI, Bernie has #5 lowest "Trump score", Gillbrand has the lowest #1 Trump score andym Jun 2018 #104
WTG Bernie.. that's pretty damn good!! Hat's off to Send Gillibrand for bein' #1 in that category. InAbLuEsTaTe Jun 2018 #106
Survey says! Healthcare is #1, followed by the economy/jobs, guns, taxes/spending, then immigration progressoid Jun 2018 #100
Nice try. Systemic racism and sexism weren't part of the survey, except in the sense that... Garrett78 Jun 2018 #105
The respondents also had the option of 'Other', 'None of these', or 'Not sure' progressoid Jun 2018 #108
LOL. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #109
What's to LOL about? progressoid Jun 2018 #111
Very few people are going to select "other." Using that to support your case resulted in my LOL. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #112
Another Bernie hater thread hueymahl Jun 2018 #102
No, but okay. Garrett78 Jun 2018 #110
we need to put the message out that TalenaGor Jun 2018 #103
You are correct K&R EffieBlack Jun 2018 #107

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
1. To be "wary of"? Truly?
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 12:12 PM
Jun 2018

An interesting phrase.


Should we also be wary of a living wage, or free tuition, or single payer health insurance?

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
3. I'll momentarily play your game:
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 12:19 PM
Jun 2018

A living wage? No, but that's a hard thing to define. Free tuition? I'm not opposed to the concept, but details need to be ironed out. "Single-payer" is probably not the term we want to use. But I'm all for universal health care.

Game over. Because this thread is specifically about those who promote the white working class/economic anxiety/shy away from 'identity politics' nonsense...and those who promote it are doing a grave disservice, regardless of what other views they hold.

Thanks for playing.

Autumn

(45,084 posts)
7. Yeah, I'm alwys wary of someone who talks
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 12:34 PM
Jun 2018

of a living wage, free tuition, single payer or someone who is all over the Republican plan to allow states to waive the ObamaCare's rule prohibiting insurers from charging customers with pre-existing conditions more for coverage.

Autumn

(45,084 posts)
24. A one way discussion on one persons set up talking points is limited discussion
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:18 PM
Jun 2018

Last edited Sat Jun 9, 2018, 02:50 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm not much in to limited discussion, Edited to add, yes your framing was ridiculous, I'm happy you admitted it.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,693 posts)
2. Let's not be "wary" of anybody.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 12:17 PM
Jun 2018

Dems need to be united, to the extent that's possible, if we expect to defeat as many GOPers as possible this November.

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
59. I'm going to be wary of Dems who bash "single payer"
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 04:06 PM
Jun 2018

I'm also going to be wary of Dems whose record includes support for a militaristic foreign policy.

i expect to find plenty to be wary of in 2020.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
8. I don't see a conflict
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 12:35 PM
Jun 2018

All US political parties are coalitions. For Democrats, it must be a coalition of social liberals and economic liberals.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
20. What do you mean by false dichotomy here?
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:12 PM
Jun 2018

Especially since I talking about coalitions rather than divisions?

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
26. I'm talking about "social liberals and economic liberals."
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:19 PM
Jun 2018

The issue is the misunderstanding of the relationship between social justice and economic justice (see link in the OP). And this notion that Democrats need to shy away from "identity politics" because doing so will win over Trump voters.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
28. I am saying the opposite of ignoring identity politics
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:26 PM
Jun 2018

And while I agree there is a relationship beteeen social and economic justice, not everyone is going to see it or be motivated by it. Some people are going to vote solely based on having a pre-existing condition, and are less concerned about social justice (didn't say necessarily unconcerned). Either way, they are part of the coalition now.

You can do the same analysis on many issues. People go to the polls for many reasons, but they are all part of our coalition or theirs.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
13. You be wary, I'll be hopeful.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 12:45 PM
Jun 2018

You ask me, this "identity politics" is nothing more than yet another way to divide progressives to the advantage of conservatives. Talk policy.

Qutzupalotl

(14,311 posts)
14. Thank you.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 12:49 PM
Jun 2018

Standing against abhorrent things is almost a given. We need to articulate and emphasize what we stand for.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
17. Like standing *for* policies that address systemic racism and sexism.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 12:58 PM
Jun 2018

Such as modern day redlining and police brutality.

Qutzupalotl

(14,311 posts)
23. That's getting closer, but still an "against."
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:16 PM
Jun 2018

We also need to say we’re FOR things like fairness, civil rights and equal treatment under the law. Include both the problem and the solution, that way our core message doesn’t get tuned out by half the people not directly affected.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
27. This is a white supremacist, patriarchal society.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:24 PM
Jun 2018

Therefore, bringing about fairness and equity and justice requires undoing a lot of injustices.

And there's much in the Democratic Party platform, as well as the platform of The Movement for Black Lives, that advocates *for* fairness and equity and justice.

But there are those who insist on shying away from all that so as to win over Trump voters. And that's beyond foolish.

Qutzupalotl

(14,311 posts)
38. You will note I did not say we should shy away
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 02:02 PM
Jun 2018

so I’m not sure if you’re referring to me. I said we have to include both the problems and our solutions.

A winning coalition is one with a message everybody can get behind. A positive vision of a better future is what draws people in. So frame it as a moral issue; include the current injustice, but also show us what justice will look like.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
39. Again, the platforms I referenced do just that.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 02:04 PM
Jun 2018

And I'm referring to those who bash "identity politics" (see OP) or promote the right wing talking point that says Democrats are in the position they are in because they spend too much time and energy talking about things like racism and sexism.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
16. I want policies addressing racism and sexism to be front and center.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 12:57 PM
Jun 2018

Not tossed aside in the interest of appealing to "white working class folks who simply have economic anxiety."

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
19. They aren't separate from economic issues, of course.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:04 PM
Jun 2018

Economic disparity is enabled by racism and sexism (see link in OP). Some make the mistake of thinking the reverse is true, as if economic disparity is what led to racism and sexism.

 

NY_20th

(1,028 posts)
21. They're called Civil Rights.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:12 PM
Jun 2018

Referring to Civil Rights as divisive is the Republican message.

The Democratic Party must absolutely not adopt that same message.

emulatorloo

(44,124 posts)
43. "Identity Politics" is a right-wing smear framing of Civil Rights. And Dems support Civil Rights
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 02:32 PM
Jun 2018

We also support income equality, better jobs, education, universal healthcare. I am not interested in having our commitment to civil rights dismissed as “identity politics” by right wingers or those who say they are progressives.

johnnyrocket

(1,773 posts)
25. Appealing to whites is the ultimate identity politics.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:18 PM
Jun 2018

...and when politicians bring up race, some whites are uncomfortable. Well, if they are, they should learn from it.

It's not so much "identity politics", but more learning about the world around you, and leaning to be less ignorant.

Ferrets are Cool

(21,106 posts)
29. "Racism and sexism should be front and center. "
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:29 PM
Jun 2018

That is NOT a winning platform. The economy and health care are.

True Blue American

(17,984 posts)
32. Agree on that
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:41 PM
Jun 2018

Identity Politics has not been a winner.

The economy, jobs,infrastructure, Health Care are winning subjects.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
37. "Identity politics" isn't what Democrats have been leading with.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 02:00 PM
Jun 2018

Actually, it's what Republicans have been leading with.

The right wing talking point says Democrats spend too much time and energy on "identity politics," and that's bullshit. As is usually the case with right wing talking points, the reverse is true.

Democrats should continue talking about jobs and health care, of course. That's a given. But they need to shine the spotlight on systemic racism and sexism.

Right wing economic policy is enabled by promoting and exploiting racism and sexism. It isn't that racism and sexism result from right wing economic policy (though racism and sexism are used after the fact to justify disparities). As a society (and Democrats are vital to this), we must do more to address racism and sexism if we are going to undermine support for right wing economic policy.

Republicans know the importance of firing up their base. Democrats need to do the same. As opposed to going out of their way to appeal to those "economically anxious" white folks who saw fit to vote for Trump.

True Blue American

(17,984 posts)
48. Yes,it is.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 03:33 PM
Jun 2018

That is why Republicans are winning.

We should not be dividing into groups. We should be talking about what people are concerned about. Their lives and their needs.

Trump pushed the division bit and many fell for his lies. We need to concentrate on Health care, fixing the Country and those programs people are worried about.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
55. I can't stop you from buying into right wing talking points.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 03:57 PM
Jun 2018

Last edited Sat Jun 9, 2018, 05:07 PM - Edit history (1)

Like their one about Obama's rhetoric being responsible for an increase in racial division, even though he spoke less about race than any Democratic president since JFK.

Or their one about how it's the Democratic Party that relies on "identity politics" (project much?).

Again, if you want to undercut support for right wing economic policy, you had better address the racism and sexism that drives that support.

I've edited the OP to address the right wing talking point more thoroughly, since you and quite a few Democrats have sadly subscribed to it.

ismnotwasm

(41,980 posts)
30. The narrative is that the veryleft will attract independent s
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:32 PM
Jun 2018

As there are not enough far leftists to win elections. (As I believe you addressed in another OP) This is, of course NOT true. The other framing,and I have to admit this bothers me, is that Democrats aren’t “left enough”. While the big tent concept still applies, those who have subverted the term “progressive” want to claim credit after one election season for decades of hard work by activists everywhere. As a feminist-for-decades this pisses me right off.

DFW

(54,380 posts)
36. I'm willing to compromise in 2020 if I HAVE to
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 01:49 PM
Jun 2018

But, goddammit, I don't WANT to have to. In Hillary, we had an ideal convergence of plusses. Experience, knew all the top layers, both good and evil, knew better than any candidate what she was doing and what she was up against, and already knew more than half the players on the world stage she would be dealing with.

There is no one out there with all of her qualifications (no wonder she scared Putin's abs into quivering), but I at least want someone with the dedication to the country's well-being (all of us, not just one group), the environment's well being, because it's past time to get heavily involved with that, and an education that will not embarrass our land every time our CIC opens their mouth in front of cameras. I want the intellectual capacity to see into the minds of opponents, whether in the Senate or in countries with nuclear missiles pointed at us. I want the ability to cement relationships with allies (and the will to do so), not make them run in horror in the opposite direction.

I even know someone like that, but he's not interested in running, so the search is on (and in no rush, I hope--Vladimir and Fox are watching, after all). I think we have some talent and some fast learners in waiting. My personal opinion is that Howard Dean was right when he said an incoming president should be a dynamic 50-ish individual who both inspires AND is sharp when the cameras are turned off and the doors to the Oval Office are closed. Anyone who declares a candidacy in 2020 that threatens a return of the White House to Democratic hands is not only a distraction, they are an adversary. Their personal agenda, no matter how noble on the surface, is anything BUT noble if it means even a chance of the likes of Donald Trump in the Oval Office.

You are not noble for going down with the ship if you are the one who ordered the torpedo in the first place.

Crutchez_CuiBono

(7,725 posts)
54. HRC
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 03:50 PM
Jun 2018

My President. She was about to open a can of whoop ass on allll the nasty folks that had their boot on our throats (and hers), and they knew it.

world wide wally

(21,743 posts)
41. For the uncompromising purists out there, keep one thing in mind...
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 02:25 PM
Jun 2018

If you don't vote for the lesser of two evils... You get the greater.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
42. I don't subscribe to "lesser of two evils" rhetoric.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 02:28 PM
Jun 2018

I admit that I used to, but I've come to see it as both false and harmful.

The Democratic Party is not an evil.

emulatorloo

(44,124 posts)
44. I vote for the person who will do the best job and will protect vulnerable citizens
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 02:36 PM
Jun 2018

And in all cases that is the Democrat. Our candidates aren’t “evil”

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
46. Looking at the replies, you've obviously touched some nerves. Good!
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 02:40 PM
Jun 2018

Looking at the replies, you've obviously touched some nerves. Good! The bristling responses, the dismissiveness and the snark indicate to me that your points have been well made.

 

shanny

(6,709 posts)
60. There's no economic anxiety?
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 04:08 PM
Jun 2018

No concern about healthcare expense/security, for example? No concern about SS or Medicare? Yeah, totally a losing arena for Ds' messaging.

Obama-to-Trump voters ARE winnable, with the RIGHT message...which isn't, "what an asshole Trump is." To paraphrase a favorite movie, they don't give a crap about him, they care about themselves, and the things that affect their lives.

The only way the "economic anxiety" message would be a loser is if the Democratic Party doesn't intend to address it.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
61. That isn't the argument.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 04:13 PM
Jun 2018

The argument is that economic anxiety is what drove Trump support and that racism was not what drove Trump support. So, Democrats just need to shy away from "identity politics" and talk about issues *white* working class people care about (see link in OP).

 

shanny

(6,709 posts)
63. I submit that Democrats need to focus on issues
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 04:29 PM
Jun 2018

that directly improve the lives of ALL Americans. Focusing on subsets of the population--whatever you want to call it--is a self-limiting and losing proposition. And it is why We Have Been Losing! for years.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
67. Combating systemic racism and sexism does improve the lives of all Americans.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 04:37 PM
Jun 2018

For one thing, racism and sexism is what undergirds support for right wing economic policy.

Here's one of the links from the post to which I provided a link to in the OP: http://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/How-Racism-Harms-White-Americans-Transcript.pdf

Lastly, see posts #37 and #55 in this thread. And I also refer you back to the OP, which I just edited so as to address this right wing talking point about Democrats losing because they focus on "identity politics." The facts don't support that. Then again, the facts pretty much never support right wing talking points.

 

shanny

(6,709 posts)
69. There's a joke about a billionaire, a black guy and a white guy
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 05:11 PM
Jun 2018

sitting at a table with a plate of a dozen cookies. The billionaire takes 11, and then looks at the white guy and says, "The black guy is trying to steal your cookie." This is what the right wing has been doing! Forever!

How do you intend to combat that? Wag your fingers and say, "Racist! Sexist! Badbadbad!"? Give me a break. All they will hear is "elites" calling them names and disregarding their concerns.

They do not care what liberals think, what "elites" think, what economists (honest ones) think--they only care that their lives are shit, and SOMEONE--other than the person they see in the mirror--must be to blame.

Better to change the narrative. Better to point out how the job creators have been making out like bandits all this time, while promising them/us! better days ahead, if only we give them more tax cuts/money...always further ahead. After 40 years that BS is finally wearing thin and so two "anti-establishment" candidates had a UUUUGE impact in the last election. The one who got elected was a fucking liar and buffoon...and some are beginning to see that.

So, better to have policies that CLEARLY benefit all, not just minorities and/or women, everyone! Have you forgotten? These people don't have any empathy and the only time they "get" things is when it affects them, directly. So speak to that.

This is exactly the wrong time to be wary, and the wrong time to be incremental--as we all learned in Nov 2016. It is time for big promises and bold change...or the changes will be even more disastrous than those we already face. What was it JFK said? "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." We are teetering on the brink here; "wary" is exactly the wrong response.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
71. Again, see the links I've provided.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 05:24 PM
Jun 2018

See the last 2 links I've added to the OP. Democrats have done the exact opposite of focus on "identity politics." And see the link in my last reply (or the one before that) about how combating systemic racism helps all Americans (How Racism Harms White Americans).

We need to inspire the base, raise hell about race-based voter suppression and gerrymandering, raise hell about Russian interference, and register more young people to vote. Not focus on peeling away Trump supporters, most of whom are hopeless (as you say, they have no empathy--Democrats already avoid "identity politics" like the plague, and it hasn't made a bit of difference--again, see the last 2 links in the OP).

The 2016 Democratic primary was essentially over by the 2nd week of March, because Sanders did not have sufficient support of the base (predominantly persons of color and women). The writing was on the wall, and the only reason the race had the appearance of being remotely close is because of disenfranchising caucuses (something the Democratic Party ought to do away with). Having the support of the base is imperative. Turning the base out in great numbers in the general election is also imperative, something the Republican Party has grasped for a long time.

 

shanny

(6,709 posts)
73. The "base" is--at best--30% of American voters.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 05:38 PM
Jun 2018

I want to expand the base, starting with disaffected lefties and the Obama-to-Trump defectors. Both of those are "get-able" with economic appeals.

BTW, I don't think either of those groups care eff-all about RussiaRussiaRussia! They care about their own lives! Not Hillary, not Bernie, not Trump. They are angry and they want something better. So make a commitment to give it to them, and find a candidate they can relate to/believe. It really isn't rocket science (and how ANY Democratic Party consultant from the 2016 cycle still has a job is beyond me).

Have a good one.

 

shanny

(6,709 posts)
92. lol
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 07:52 PM
Jun 2018

were Clinton's policies "further forward" than universal healthcare?* 'cause I musta missed that...pray elucidate.






*and before you become tiresome, Of Course he was lying and making shit up, as he always does. Doesn't mean he didn't outflank Clinton to her left on economic policies, which is where most people consider "ahead" to be...unless you are a republican

 

NY_20th

(1,028 posts)
95. And here I was trying to be lighthearted with you,
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 08:01 PM
Jun 2018

and have some lighthearted fun with you, and you respond with this crap?

You think Trump outflanked Hillary on the left? Whoa.

Please explain to my tiresome self.


Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
76. Regarding those Obama-Trump voters:
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 05:59 PM
Jun 2018
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/why_did_some_white_obama_voters_for_trump.html

Any campaign strategy geared toward focusing on appeals to the fraction of Trump supporters who aren't hopeless is doomed to fail (I, mean, you want to talk about a small percentage of voters). They are relatively small in number and they are dispersed across 50 states. Appealing to them is not a national campaign strategy worth taking seriously.

A good lot of people pay no attention to politics and don't vote. That's unfortunate, and the national party should invest some resources in reaching out to and educating those folks. We also need to get more young people registered to vote. First and foremost, though, we have to fire up the base. That's the #1 key to winning elections.

People claim that Democrats are losing because they focus too much on "identity politics," but then they ignore the evidence that shows they're dead wrong (again, see the links I added to the OP).

jalan48

(13,865 posts)
57. If it's in our platform I'm good with it. I don't think the same message should be front and center
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 04:00 PM
Jun 2018

in all areas of the country. The message should be tailored to the needs of citizens in that specific geographic area.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
58. you are misconstruing what Sanders was saying, and maybe should take his qoutes in context,
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 04:03 PM
Jun 2018


which are not at all saying that we shouldn't be fighting against racism and sexism.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
64. I didn't quote Sanders, so I couldn't have taken a quote out of context.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 04:31 PM
Jun 2018

I was making the general point that those who have bought into the right wing talking point (I gave Tim Ryan as an example) about "identity politics" being the Democrats' problem and that "economic anxiety" drove white people to vote for Trump (disproven by study after study) are doing a grave disservice.

As for Sanders, at a townhall discussion shortly after the 2016 election, he was quite dismissive of the role racism and sexism played in Trump's rise to power. He disputed claims that many of Trump's supporters are motivated by racism and sexism. That's naive...and I'm putting it nicely.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
72. first, not disproven by study after study. Asking people why they voted for somebody is not
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 05:34 PM
Jun 2018

proof. But how racism plays a part in economic disparity is certainly complicated and deep, and I wouldn't suggest that racism had a small role in the elections, but unpacking what racism is, why it exists as it does and why is it so perpetuated and how, to what purpose, is all part of that equation. What the other represents to these homogenous white areas or enclaves can be easily dismissed as them just hating to hate, but it has a lot to do with all kinds of fear, and yes, fearing to lose status(which is opportunity and privilege etc.) is fear of loss of stability.

The playing field has been ridiculously uneven, but now we're at a point in our technological and global evolution where everybody is being affected negatively(still lesser for white people) and that impact is being scapegoated on immigrants and people of color, and one petty and selfish reaction to that in the face of uncertainty is just to want to keep those who haven't had a piece of the pie from having any of their own diminishing piece of the pie. Getting them to refocus(and we aren't talking about the 33 percent of authoritarian deeply racist voters who can't be moved by outsiders at all) their angst, anger and energy on the billionaire class that has largely exploited the trappings that keep us warring with each other and ignoring that exploitation is, in my opinion, how you effectively chip away at racism. Rechannel that fear elsewhere. Diffuse the logic of where it is targeted now.

Calling the voting public flat-out racists to their face(without knowing them individually) is a conversation ender, so whether racism is at play is not what we are talking about. How to erode it is.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
75. Here are some links:
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 05:48 PM
Jun 2018
https://www.thenation.com/article/economic-anxiety-didnt-make-people-vote-trump-racism-did/

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/12/15/16781222/trump-racism-economic-anxiety-study

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2018/04/25/debunking-election-economic-anxiety-myth/BnrFb0K14C62VrPZgKDR6M/story.html

https://www.metro.us/president-trump/economic-anxiety-didnt-get-trump-elected-fear-losing-privilege-did-study-finds

Here's another one everyone ought to read, regarding Obama-Trump voters: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/why_did_some_white_obama_voters_for_trump.html

And see the last 2 links that I've added to the OP, which dispute the silly right wing talking point (that so many Democrats have subscribed to) that Democrats have been losing due to focusing too much on "identity politics."

We need to motivate the base, raise hell about Russia and race-based voter suppression and race-based gerrymandering, and get more young people registered to vote. We don't have time to focus on peeling away Trump supporters, most of whom are hopeless. The ones who aren't hopeless are relatively small in number and dispersed across 50 states (trying to target/appeal to them is a piss-poor campaign strategy). The Republican Party has understood for years how important it is to fire up the base. Democrats need to do the same.

Lastly, you combat systemic racism and sexism by way of public policy or through the courts (just as gay marriage was made legal by way of the Supreme Court following years of organizing and lower court victories). Addressing individual racism is a whole other matter, though changing laws have a way of ultimately changing attitudes (new norms become accepted over time).

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
78. Hopefully you saw the OP after I edited it to include a couple more links.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 06:07 PM
Jun 2018

It's disturbing how many Democrats (from leftists to moderates) have bought into the right wing talking point that says Democrats have been losing because they've focused too much on "identity politics." See comments by Tim Ryan, Bernie Sanders and others. See posts #29, #32, #63 and others in this thread, as well as many other threads. The evidence doesn't support the claim, but the evidence just gets ignored.

To nobody's surprise, that right wing talking point has taken reality and flipped it on its head. In reality, Democrats would be hard-pressed to shy away any more from "identity politics."

Cha

(297,240 posts)
80. I will check it out when I get back.. meanwhile I posted
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 06:12 PM
Jun 2018

this on your thread above..

Bernie Sanders still says class is more important than race. He is still wrong

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/22/bernie-sanders-identity-politics-class-race-debate

POC are our Democratic Base.. no abandoning them.. wouldn't want to anyway.. I don't care what BS has to say about it. He's wrong.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
81. Thank you for an excellent OP and for the links and research. I'm SO SICK of the LIES...
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 06:15 PM
Jun 2018

Thank you for an excellent OP and for the links and research. I'm SO SICK of the LIES about Democrats losing because of "identity politics".

It's disturbing how many Democrats have bought into the right wing talking point
The responses throughout this thread reveal which ones have bought into it. No need for anyone to "call them out" on anything. All I'm saying is that there are many who aren't even TRYING to fit-in any more and they appear to be voluntarily outing themselves.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
82. It's infected the likes of Tim Ryan, as well.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 06:18 PM
Jun 2018

I can only hope our nominee in 2020 doesn't buy into the right wing talking point.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
83. just to be clear, no dispute here on what media in general, but specifically the right wing, is
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 06:22 PM
Jun 2018

doing with "identity politics," and how they have mischaracterized the whole debate in an effort to suggest that we need to be appealing to the basest desires of the voters in rural white America...that we should be sinking to the lowest common denominator...listening to them as to how to govern versus listening to them as to how they are suffering along with everybody else and responding to that suffering with the right platform that addresses that, speaks to it boldly, and does not waver(nor does it have to nor should it nor can it) from continuing to promote core democratic values.

You combat those things you mention the way you mention, if we win congress and the Senate and the White House. How is that not what we're talking about here?

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
84. Dems already have a message that should (and does) appeal to the majority of working class folks.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 06:30 PM
Jun 2018

And Dems would be hard-pressed to shy away any more from "identity politics" (see 2nd to last link in the OP).

I'll bold the most relevant parts of something I've posted before:

People often bemoan the fact that millions vote against their economic interests. But the reason why is clear. They are voting *for* their perceived cultural/social interests.

Absent racism, the Republican Party would cease to be viable. The Democratic Party message is infinitely better on every issue that should matter to working people.

In Ohio, Rob Portman (a major advocate of NAFTA) outperformed Trump. So much for the issue of trade being oh so important to Trump voters.


As I've written before:

It's been postulated that social injustices are caused by wealth or income disparities. So, if we address the latter, we'll address the former. That reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between social and economic justice.

I'm sympathetic to what many dismiss as "far left" points of view, but this is one major issue that many leftists get wrong. In fact, you might even say people who make the above claim have it completely backwards. The fostering and exploitation of bigotry (along with race-based voter suppression and gerrymandering) is what enables Republicans to win political victories, which leads to right wing economic policies being enacted. Those policies hurt more than anyone those who are already most oppressed. Then, the wealth gap between white individuals and persons of color is justified using various stereotypes.

This has been the case since the founding of the US on the genocide of one people and the enslavement of another. Remember, race is a social construct. And "whiteness" (along with its supposed superiority) was an invention borne out of the need to prevent a united front by all poor, oppressed people. Whites would be indentured servants with light at the end of the tunnel, while Negroes would be kept in bondage. Poor whites would be thrown a bone (and a whole lot of propaganda), enough to make them feel superior, enough to make them feel like they had more in common with their oppressors than their fellow oppressed.

Social Security (initially), the GI Bill, access to housing and other investment opportunities, the right to vote, access to higher education, access to employment with a decent wage, access to a fair trial and so much more was essentially denied to persons of color and women. Those injustices (even those that were seemingly resolved) continue to impact the present, including the wealth gap between white households and black and brown households, between men and women. Therefore, a rising tide has not historically lifted all boats. Ta-Nehisi Coates makes "The Case for Reparations."

This is why social justice victories (legalizing gay marriage) and breaking barriers (first Black POTUS, first woman POTUS, first transgender state legislator, etc.) constitute more than mere symbolism. They are cracks in the facade, and crucial steps toward addressing economic injustice.

Much has been made of the *white* working class, or even white working class men. Democrats already do better than Republicans among the working class. In saying Democrats shouldn't go out of their way to appeal to *white* working class men, the point isn't to denigrate that subset of the population. The point is that the Democratic Party platform should already appeal to the working class. And, for the most part, it does, based on exit polls following every election.

Why speak specifically of *white* working class folks? We all know why. Either it's because there's this assumption that only white people work or experience economic anxiety (horribly racist and obviously false), or it's because a certain portion of *white* working class folks are voting based on factors that have nothing to do with candidate positions on wage stagnation, workplace safety, health care, equal pay, paid family leave and all of the other issues that should matter to the working class.
If that's the case, and I think we all know that it is, what does one suggest Democratic candidates do?

Should Democratic candidates not talk about criminal injustice, the race-based "War on Drugs," race-based voter suppression, a path to citizenship and the fact that US policy has been a driver of immigration all around the world, reproductive rights, equal pay, a culture that suggests sexual assault is tolerable, and so on? If not talking about those things, or - worse - taking the opposite position is what it will take to win over a certain subset of the population, then that's just too bad. As Dr. King said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Just as some rich folks recognize the danger of extreme economic disparity, we should all want less disparity (in terms of wealth, criminal justice, medical care, housing, etc.) between white folks and persons of color, between men and women, between gay and straight. Get on board with Democrats or lose, because ultimately "the arc of the moral universe bends toward justice."

So, in summary, going back to the invention of race/whiteness, the fostering and exploitation of bigotries has enabled economic disparities in the US. Economic disparities aren't what enable racism and sexism, though economic disparities are used - after the fact - as justification for social/cultural wealth disparities (again, stereotypes are used to justify the wealth gap between black and white households, for instance). Racism and sexism are what enable economic disparities. Whiteness and patriarchy had to be invented as a means to divide and conquer.

We must address racism (including xenophobia) and sexism head-on. If we don't, there's no hope of substantially redistributing wealth or opportunity. A common response to what I’ve written is that “we must fight for both economic and social justice” or that “it’s not an either-or situation.” Of course it isn’t. Of course Democrats and all people of conscience should be fighting for progressive taxation and closing tax loopholes, paid family leave, universal health care, ending imperialism, and so on. My point, though, is that right wing economic viewpoints survive and prosper precisely because of bigotry. Absent racism alone (to say nothing of other forms of bigotry), the Republican Party would cease to be viable.


Liberals often lament that millions "vote against their economic interests." Lament no more, as the reason has always been quite clear. The reason is those millions are voting *for* their perceived cultural/social interests.

And we must recognize that a rising tide is not sufficient. Measures must be taken to reverse history, so to speak. A good place to start: https://policy.m4bl.org/platform/.

Lastly, a message for the young folks and others who are hoping for a viable left wing alternative to the Democratic Party in this 2-party system of ours. The first step is ending the viability of the Republican Party. And we do that by significantly diminishing racism, sexism, heterosexism and xenophobia (because that, and not right wing economic policy, is what's keeping the GOP alive). In the meantime, you need to support the only viable party that stands in the way of fascism. And you need to recognize that addressing social injustice is key to addressing economic injustice.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
85. Its not gotten dead wrong. You said it right there. Racism is a tool. It has always been a tool. It
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 07:11 PM
Jun 2018

is intrinsically linked to the justification of ownership or poverty, the justification for pillage, class, etc. Yes, of course it is fostered by the right wing and really, by the rich at large, often simply by playing people off of each other and keeping them distracted fighting each other in the mud. Nobody points up to the benefactors of this system, and when you don't do that you let it persist, because they are, as you say, exploiting it, and feeding it. Racism in the police force has been tolerated for instance, not simply in right wing areas, but in liberal bastions, because the job of the police has never really been to protect and serve the public....it has been to protect the assets of those who have them and to keep unwanted elements down, and out. Take a look also at our prison system, which is hardly the unilateral result of republicans.

We will never ever do away with racism unless we tackle the machinery that makes it so intractable. Personally, I think one way to do that(and the only way I can think of) is to get the middle class and the poor on the same side and against the same boogie man. Give them something big they can take away from this victory that benefits their lives tangibly, not at the expense of immigrants and people of color, Muslims etc. but arm-in-arm with them. Given esoteric advantages versus their entrenched racism, yes, people are going to pick their racism since that is built upon all of the ideas that suggest that it is "the other" that is making them unsafe or impacting their way of life and their wages, etc....that their taxes are somehow going to them...that crime is attributed to them rather than a broken and for profit criminal justice system that is the actual thief of their tax dollars).

Again, given an obvious, tangible win, I think we could pull at least some republicans at the margins to our cause. Given an us versus them that changes who us is, and who them is, I think we could tackle the mechanisms of racism. Over time, I think they start to be less core to the philosophy of people about what is wrong with the world, because they no longer serve a purpose but instead stand in the way...If we do it right, those racist ideas can be equated by us, not to the very people we need to vote with us, but to those trying to sew division and keep them from getting what should be theirs.

Of course the big hurdle when you decide to go after big money, is first, our offices are filled with people who are vastly wealthy and have no interest in putting a target on their own back, and second, it represents a potential drying up of resources and a Stalingrad moment for the wealthy who will put everything they have into destroying those who try to change the system. I'm far from certain it would succeed. I just don' think anything else will.

I think, given the value of racism and divide-and-conquer politics, and the money at disposal to exploit whatever new rift emerges that feeds hate and animosity, its naïve to think that as soon as white people become the minority that racism is going to become a thing of the past. Or that the youth are a different breed in this world of increasingly bubble oriented exposure to information, especially given that that information is going to get more and more tailored(not to mention filtered through big companies), and that we're barely going to even have a context at some point for what other people are being exposed to.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
87. Again, the Democratic message is already heavily geared toward the working class.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 07:20 PM
Jun 2018

Heavily. It would have been hard for Clinton and Obama (and others) to speak any less about "identity politics" and any more about economic issues. When people claim Democrats are in the position they are in because they focus too much on "identity politics," I look at the data and laugh...and then I weep when I realize it's not just right wingers and the infotainment industry promoting that narrative. It's also Democrats (from leftists to moderates).

You don't run a national campaign by going out of your way to focus on appealing to that fraction of Trump voters who might be reachable and are dispersed across 50 states (though you can hope those reachable people will see the light and realize their mistake). Not if you want to win, that is. You win by firing up the base (that includes raising hell about systemic racism and sexism), by raising hell about Russia, by raising hell about voter suppression and gerrymandering, by combating the GOP's highly successful campaign against "liberal media," and by getting more young folks registered to vote. And, of course, by continuing to talk about all of those issues that matter to the working class.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
88. Of course, you fire up the base. It would be nice to get the base and then enough other voters to
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 07:22 PM
Jun 2018

win the election. What about economic and social justice doesn't fire up our base?



Though I would disagree that our message has been in the past, geared towards the working class, or the poor for that matter. It has been geared towards great compromise. statesmanship of finding common ground between people and Wall Street. The language has often been vague and noncommittal.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
90. And yet a majority of working class folks are voting for Democrats.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 07:35 PM
Jun 2018

If a subset of working class voters (i.e., white men) are doing the opposite of their fellow working class peers, then it's not because of messaging. Maybe the messaging does need to be stronger, but the messaging can't be blamed for what is clearly a racial/sex divide among the working class.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
93. the issue with this argument is that there are a lot of reasons why people of color
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 07:52 PM
Jun 2018

who are also working class might vote for democrats over republicans that has nothing to do with the democratic economic message and everything to do with the overt and dog-whistle racism of the Republican Party. You can't use that as evidence that our economic message is strong, since our inclusiveness and rhetoric is far superior to Republicans when it comes to issues of party identiy and as a matter of where we will typically stand, eventually in some cases, on civil rights. The economic element may absolutely be a factor, but I'd assume that the threat assessment is pretty front and center when it comes to what Republicans run on.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
94. Anyone who, at this point, thinks Republicans are better on economics is a damn fool.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 07:54 PM
Jun 2018

If you want to say the Democratic Party message on economics needs to be stronger, fine. If you believe Republicans have a stronger message (and, more importantly, a stronger record) on economics, there isn't anything that can be done for you. You're terminal.

The same goes for anyone who, in spite of the data, continues to promote the right wing talking point that says Democrats focus more on "identity politics" than economics.

You can't fix stupid.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
96. heh...I'd say drastically misinformed, and that there are reasons, a part of which we are to blame,
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 08:05 PM
Jun 2018

for why that misinformation has been so successful. But that's a claim that would require a long post to dig into. This is mostly the doing of Republicans and the corporate media.

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
62. What's there to be wary of regarding Bernie? He's represents the best of progressive ideals.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 04:19 PM
Jun 2018

Those here describing themselves as "moderate Democrats" may not like Bernie's politics, but, no doubt, his politics represents the majority of Democrats' views...that's why Bernie votes with the Democratic majority more than any other Democrat, making him more Democratic than any non-Democrat or, for that matter, any actual Democrat.

Yes, yes I know Bernie is not yet formally registered as a Democrat, so save me the Bernie bashing... but, he most definitely is a Democrat in spirit and will be one in name, if and when he runs for, and wins, the 2020 Democratic nominaton for President.

 

NY_20th

(1,028 posts)
65. Where did you get this from?
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 04:32 PM
Jun 2018
"that's why Bernie votes with the Democratic majority more than any other Democrat, making him more Democratic than any non-Democrat or, for that matter, any actual Democrat."


Here is a helpful link for you.

https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=senate

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
68. So Bernie is 1 of the top Senators, serving in a "STRONG DEM" state according to your source,
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 05:06 PM
Jun 2018

rated by progressive standards. Okay, I accept that. My point was Bernie is a Democrat for all intents and purposes. I did see where Bernie had the highest percentage of voting with the majority of Democrats, so my other point still stands... you can Google it if you don't believe me. So, in my mind that makes Bernie the STRONGEST Democrat. #11 is not bad, and that's only one rating system... I'm sure he ranks better in other studies.

 

NY_20th

(1,028 posts)
70. Please provide a link for this.
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 05:11 PM
Jun 2018
" I did see where Bernie had the highest percentage of voting with the majority of Democrats, so my other point still stands"


I have no idea where you are getting that from.

Do you mean the highest percentage of Independents voting with the majority of Democrats?

You can think what you want in your mind, but it doesn't make it true.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
98. Are you making that up, or do you have a source to back up your claim?...
Sat Jun 9, 2018, 10:08 PM
Jun 2018
that's why Bernie votes with the Democratic majority more than any other Democrat


Frankly, I think you're just making that up. But I'll apologize if you can provide a credible source to back it up.



Sid

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
101. No, I did see that somewhere... will look for it again.
Sun Jun 10, 2018, 12:23 AM
Jun 2018

Not sure of the exact time period in question that was referenced... can't remember TBH. But, no, didn't just make that up.

andym

(5,443 posts)
104. FYI, Bernie has #5 lowest "Trump score", Gillbrand has the lowest #1 Trump score
Sun Jun 10, 2018, 12:41 AM
Jun 2018
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-trump-score/
Sorted by Trump score (how often a Senator votes in line with Trump's position.)
1. Gillibrand 8.2%
2. Merkley
3. Warren
4. Sanders
5. Booker
6. Markey
7. Harris
8. Wyden
9. Blumenthal
10. Hirono 21.9%
50. Manchin 61.6% (list includes Franken and Tina Smith)

Manchin is the worst Democrat, but still beats the Republican with the lowest Trump score: Paul with 74.3

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
106. WTG Bernie.. that's pretty damn good!! Hat's off to Send Gillibrand for bein' #1 in that category.
Sun Jun 10, 2018, 12:51 AM
Jun 2018


So, how is it that Bernie is not a Democrat, at least in spirit, if not by name, than Joe Manchin?!

progressoid

(49,990 posts)
100. Survey says! Healthcare is #1, followed by the economy/jobs, guns, taxes/spending, then immigration
Sun Jun 10, 2018, 12:09 AM
Jun 2018
Health care is top midterm issue

Asked about their top issues for November, 22 percent of voters said health care was their first choice — followed by the economy and jobs at 19 percent, guns at 13 percent, taxes and spending at 11 percent and immigration at 10 percent.

The top responses among Democrats were health care (32 percent) and guns (17 percent), while the top answers among Republicans were the economy and jobs (26 percent) and taxes/spending (15 percent).

...https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/poll-economic-satisfaction-under-trump-isn-t-helping-his-party-n880721


Sadly, racism and sexism isn't a priority for voters

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
105. Nice try. Systemic racism and sexism weren't part of the survey, except in the sense that...
Sun Jun 10, 2018, 12:44 AM
Jun 2018

...they are linked to all of those issues that were asked about. Of course, those surveys don't really lend themselves to honesty. If Republicans prioritized the economy and jobs, they wouldn't be Republicans.

Anyway, nobody is saying to not talk about the economy or jobs or guns or health care. Democrats (like Clinton in 2016) already spend far, far, far more time talking about economic issues than anything else. But if you want to fire up the base (in particular, persons of color and women), shine a spotlight on systemic racism and sexism. Talk about how the fostering and exploitation of racism and sexism has enabled destructive wealth and income disparities.

There's a reason right wingers push the narrative that Democrats spend too much time talking about "identity politics." As is almost always the case, they are projecting and saying the exact opposite of what's true. Plus, they know the importance of firing up the base when it comes to a national campaign, and they don't want Democrats firing up our base. They know full well that their own base votes *for* their perceived cultural/social interests and *against* their economic interests--and that Democrats talking even more than they already do about economic issues isn't going to do a damn thing to win over Republican voters.

progressoid

(49,990 posts)
111. What's to LOL about?
Sun Jun 10, 2018, 01:00 AM
Jun 2018

If I had been polled, I would have said 'other'. And based on your OP, I'm guessing you would have too.

However, most respondents didn't see a need to.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
112. Very few people are going to select "other." Using that to support your case resulted in my LOL.
Sun Jun 10, 2018, 01:03 AM
Jun 2018

And I've said my piece about the survey and it's usefulness (see my previous reply, which I edited a bit).

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
110. No, but okay.
Sun Jun 10, 2018, 01:00 AM
Jun 2018

I'm opposed to anyone (such as Tim Ryan) who promotes the narrative that Democrats' problem is they focus too much on "identity politics," anyone who vastly underestimates the role racism and sexism played in Trump's rise, anyone who suggests more than a fraction of Trump voters are reachable (and that Democrats should focus on reaching them).

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