Theresa MAY not survive as leader -Justice Minister resigns over Brexit policy

[malaise]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/12/justice-minister-phillip-lee-resign-over-brexit-policy
<snip>
The justice minister Phillip Lee has resigned over the UK government’s handling of Brexit, dealing a significant blow to Theresa May before key Commons votes on the EU withdrawal bill.

The minister for victims, youth and family justice, who supported remain at the referendum, said he was “incredibly sad” to stand down, but that he believed the government’s Brexit policy was detrimental to the lives of his constituents.

His departure will increase the number of rebels planning to oppose the government on a key amendment to the bill later on Tuesday. The debate on a “meaningful vote” on any final Brexit deal is expected to come down to the wire after No 10 sources said it would not back a compromise deal offered by the leading Tory pro-Europe rebel Dominic Grieve.

[riversedge]

1. "who supported remain at the referendum,"?????

[malaise]

2. Brexit was rigged by the same folks who rigged the US elections

Truth is out

[DFW]

4. It definitely was not the will of a majority of the British

If May were truly smart and had some true daring, she'd do whatever was left in her term in power to start a reversal of the process.

I know, flying pigs are part of the same scenario.........

[malaise]

5. THIS

I know, flying pigs are part of the same scenario.........

[OnDoutside]

9. She's only clinging to power, because the rest of them are waiting to see how Brexit turns out

before they boot her out. No one wanted to be saddled with the blame, including BoJo, the snivelling rat.

Bear in mind that she has to lay the final Brexit deal before Parliament for a vote, and if it's a terrible deal (which it probably will be for the Brexiteers), she'll lose. In that circumstance, either she'll resign then, OR there will mostly be another Referendum (I hope !).

[DFW]

12. BoJo

I think your assessment of him is quite accurate.

Another referendum would be ideal, and for that reason alone, it is probably at the bottom of every MP's wish list, but I bet Bre-entry would win with 60% this time.

[OnDoutside]

21. I'm hopeful too. It would be so much clearer if the Labour Party

had a proper leader.

[DFW]

22. Yes, that has been a particular disappointment

For a Party that could have had so much popular support, they then dash their chances on the rocks with the likes of Tony Benn, Michael Foot, Neil Kinnock, etc. Even Corbyn has proved to be singularly uninspiring. Labour always has their best chances with a younger, dynamic non-ideologue, and I don't need to say who Michael Foot reminds me of in the USA right now. Had he not been foolish enough to cement himself to Bush in Iraq, Blair might even have turned out rather decent.

[OnDoutside]

24. The rot with Labour started when the unions backed Ed Miliband over his brother David for the

leadership. It could have been so different. After the Brexit vote, I was hoping David would have returned to the UK but it wasn't to be.

[DFW]

25. Maybe his time at MIT gave him "the bug."

My elder daughter was born here in Germany, grew up here, went to high school (Gymnasium) here but for a semester in Dallas. She got "the bug." Went for her higher education in the USA, ended up graduating from a school in her field in New York City, and said, "this is home." She hasn't lived anywhere else since.

[OnDoutside]

26. Well I certainly can't blame him, and he a very challenging job right now as head of the

International Rescue Committee.

[DFW]

27. Yes, I heard he likes it there.

NYC is definitely a "love it" or "hate it" place. Just ask John Oliver.

I met some people from Hawaii who found New York City to be worse than their most awful nightmares of what hell would be like. My daughter, on the other hand, would take the suggestion to live somewhere else as an invitation to voluntary incarceration.

[OnDoutside]

28. It helps to be on his executive package though !!! He started on 300K + benefits.

[DFW]

30. That would be beyond my daughter's wildest dreams

She started out living in a hovel, something Dickens would have written about when describing a place Oliver Twist would have refused to sleep in. She worked her way out of that, but in NYC, $300K all alone doesn't make you a rich man unless those "+benefits" include a nice flat and some transportation.

It's ironic, she would love to have a job that pays $300,000 but knows that in her field, that will never come. Her sister, on the other hand, would give her eye teeth to live in New York City (they are close), but found a fabulous job in Frankfurt that currently pays her double Miliband's salary, but ties her down to Frankfurt. So they are both jealous of each other, but wouldn't trade, either.

[OnDoutside]

31. I'm sure some would disagree, but I think it is much better to do the job you love. I'm not

putting any pressure on my 12 year old but he is really taken by the law (and politics, which is my fault !). He might change again, but since he came across this Nintendo 3DS game called Phoenix Wright - Ace Attorney. It really sparked his imagination, even listening to the Preet Bhararra podcast every week ! I'm just happy he isn't playing those mindless shooting games.

[DFW]

34. My younger daughter always loved to argue

She isn't a trial lawyer, although she is the great-great granddaughter of one of New York's most famous trial lawyers. She didn't find that out until after she had studied his most famous case, which led to an overhaul of some labor laws in NYC. I had totally forgotten about him (my great-grandfather), since he died before I was born.The DNA skipped a few generations, I guess. When she told me that she was learning about the case, I told her, "did you know you are his direct descendant?" She said, sure, ha ha. I said no, for real. She couldn't believe it.

[OnDoutside]

36. That's excellent, I can imagine that would have pushed her on even more.

[DFW]

37. Curiously, it did no such thing. She just considered it a footnote.

We tried to impress upon them that they were something neither my wife nor I could ever be, i.e. completely bi-cultural, but this also meant they both had to find their own paths, that neither of us was really the right model to follow. We encouraged this, and they have taken it completely to heart. It helped immensely, of course, that they knew they could count on our help if things got difficult, but this just gave them more incentive to try not to need it.

[OnDoutside]

42. That's a fantastic attitude to have taken, great credit to you and your wife.

[DFW]

45. We think it was more luck than skillful parenting

After all, at the start, we knew no more about parenting than anyone else. But we knew what we wanted from and for them, and we knew they were no idiots. So we tried to steer them (never pushing) in the direction(s) we thought would be best for them, nurturing what we perceived to be their talents (very different from one another!), and hoping they'd turn out with the right attitude. This necessarily involved hard times for their boyfriends along the way, as they are not prone to compromising. On the other hand, we are very happy with their current choices, so that is much a relief as their professional careers.

In my wife and me, they also had a stable, solid pair of parents to fall back on. We think the more you are aware of that, the less you tend to fall back on them. It is a luxury piece of mind that far from all children enjoy.

[OnDoutside]

48. That's sort of what we are trying to do too.

We aren't pushing him in any particular direction, except to encourage whatever he seems interested in, at the time. He has been consistently top of his class in English, and near top in Maths and Irish. Above all, he is really taken with justice, politics and debating !

[DFW]

53. Ours were quite different.

The German school system, at least at a pre/university level, is a brutal competition in which they use an openly Darwinian system to weed out the weaker ones and have a true survival of the fittest. My elder daughter used to be somewhat shy, and was reticent to speak up in class, and therefore got little attention and low grades.

During her one semester "abroad (i.e. Dallas)," she suddenly got some attention from her teachers, suddenly got good grades (including in subjects not even taught in the German Gymnasium, such as astronomy and journalism), and much to her surprise, found out she wasn't as academically inferior as she was led to believe here in Germany.

After her graduation here in Düsseldorf, she said she absolutely wanted to return to the USA for college. She spent two years in a junior college in Los Angeles, and then graduated from a school in New York City combining her interest (fashion) with something practical (business). Not realizing that many of those in her school used the opportunity to goof off and party in New York City at their parents' expense, she took her school work seriously.

Shortly before graduation, she called me up and asked me what the English word "valedictorian" meant (it's something completely different in German), and why was she expected to give a speech in English before her whole class plus teachers and parents? When I explained that the valedictorian was the one who got the top grades in her class. Still somewhat bewildered, she said, are you sure, because they said that's me! Well, she gave her speech in English, and gained a self-confidence that had been building up during her time in L.A. and continued in New York. The shy little girl who was in the process of being weeded out of the German Gymnasium system as academically too weak to go on, had gradually metamorphosed into this confident young woman who was now up to facing any challenge put before her.

So my advice to any parent is to do as much as you can to make your child feel as confident as they possibly can about their abilities, and not be afraid to exploit their academic strengths, and don't let any school system tell you that they have none. It's a pure lottery as to whether they land teachers who care or not, and you can't always count on getting lucky.

It sounds like you have the right approach as well. He has the chance of becoming the next Yeats, the next David Trimble or the next Newton, and will have every chance to combine the three if he so chooses.

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. David Miliband was too similar to Tony Blair

Remember, he was head of Blair's No. 10 Policy Unit from 1997 to 2001, and a minister in government during the Iraq war. Backing him over Ed would have been looking for the centre ground without principle.

[OnDoutside]

39. How's he looking now ?

I agree it appeared that way, but Ed wasn't in his ballpark for stature. It was a serious error.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. I think it was better to choose Ed over David

'Stature' is nowhere near as important as policy, as well as being a largely fictitious aspect manipulated by the media.

[OnDoutside]

41. Well since Ed led to Jeremy, I can't agree with you there ! Ed never had the gravitas for such a

position, and was as whipped by the control of the unions as Trump has been by the Evangelicals.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. Better to listen to the unions than to the Daily Mail

which was Blair's fundamental flaw, and David really didn't seem immune to it.

By definition, Labour is meany to listen to the unions.

[OnDoutside]

44. Blair's fundamental flaw was to listen to George Bush ! He never recovered from that.

The definition is to listen to all, but be beholden to none. Ed was owned by the unions.

[syringis]

20. Je ne suis pas certaine que le Brexit aboutira

Cela dit, c'est ce que je pense depuis le 1er jour. Je serais ravie que ça foire et qu'on puisse enfin revenir aux priorités et aller de l'avant.

On à quelques mois de la date butoir et entre ce qui a été fait et rien...

Pour couronner le tout, May n'a pas arrêté d'enchaîner les erreurs, à commencer par cette imbécilité d'élections anticipées pour avoir une majorité confortable !!

En plus, si d'aventure ça devait vraiment arriver, le risque très réel d'une implosion du RU n'est pas exclue. L'Ecosse a fini par se calmer mais les velléités indépendantistes n'ont jamais disparu. Et comme ils sont pro-Europe convaincus, ils pourraient bien opter pour l'indépendance. Sans compter le regain de tension entre les 2 Irlandes + le problème des frontières. A ça, tu aussi d'autres régions dont on parle moins mais qui pourraient aussi se sentir pousser des ailes. Je pense à la Cornouailles et au Pays de Galles, même si, de par l'histoire et le contexte, l'indépendance est peu probable, les mouvements indépendantistes étant beaucoup moins soutenus par la population. Il n'empêche que ce sera quand même une source de problèmes à gérer.

Par contre, Irlande du Nord et Ecosse, c'est une autre chanson ! ce sont littéralement des bombes à retardement.

Avec la démission de Lee, l'épreuve de force avec les parlementaires et May va tourner au pugilat ! Ils veulent avoir un droit de regard sur les conditions du divorce, elle veut avoir les mains libres...

J'en arrive à me demander si finalement, la brave dame ne fait pas sciemment capoter le processus, tout en prétendant que le Brexit aura lieu, qu'il pleuve, qu'il vente ou qu'il neige...

Comme elle avait aussi été catégorique et affirmé qu'il n'y aurait en aucun des élections anticipées, hein...

Je ne serai pas étonnée si elle démissionne avant la fin de l'année. A dire vrai, c'est le contraire qui me surprendrait !

[DFW]

23. Moi, en tout cas,

Je n'attends pas qu'elle y soit d'ici Décembre. Mais il y a une manque sérieuse de personnage au RU en ce moment, et c'est encore possible que ce fait tout seul la sauve.

[syringis]

29. Oui vu comme ca

Mais ça la sauvera elle, pour le brexit, ça pédale grave dans la choucroute !

C'est vrai qu'en terme de personnalités charismatisques... du côté des Tories, ils ont vachement brûlé leur vaisseaux, je vois mal Cameron, qui était à peu près potable, reprendre du service, Johnson...c'est assez d'un Trump, pas la peine de s'en farcir un ici, et May, elle risque de devoir à nouveau se vendre au DUP, ce qui, à mon avis, passera très très mal. La dernière fois, c'était déjà limite, mais si pour leur soutien, elle doit sortir 1 milliard supplémentaire de livres, ça va hurler dans l'île !

Du côté du Labour, Corbyn ne m'inspire pas, il a toujours été eurosceptique, même s'il ne s'est pas déclaré pro-brexit. Les autres, je ne connais pas.

Les Libs ne feront pas le poids, c'est un parti relativement petit. Je me souviens de Nick Clegg dans les années 90, un chic type et européen convaincu avec qui j'avais discuté parfois. Le problème des Lib-Dems c'est leur alliance avec les tories en 2010. Ils se sont fait rouler dans la farine et ça leur a coûté cher en termes de voix.

Pour les autres partis, je ne connais pas grand monde mais j'imagine mal Sturgeon (que j'aime bien) PM british. Pas plus qu'un représentant d'un parti irlandais.

Enfin, l'avenir nous dira ce qu'il en est. Mais j'appelle de tous mes voeux une solution qui empêche le divorce, on n'a rien à y gagner.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. Why the question marks?

Several senior Tories supported remain. Theresa May did herself, though her campaigning was distinctly luke-warm, possibly with an eye to running for leadership in the event of of Leave winning and Cameron resigning.

[TimeSnowDemos]

3. She probably will, in the short term...

...but doesn't deserve too.

Not that it matters... both main parties are pro-Brexit.

[Exotica]

7. The vast majority of Labour was not and is not 'pro-Brexit'. It's official position was Remain

There were some splinter groups within it that where for Leave, but overall it was without a doubt Remain (including Corbyn, who historically was Euro-sceptic, but actively campaigned for Remain starting on April 15th, when the official campaign started for run-up to the vote).

Even the Tories were officially Neutral and very much split in reality. You also have to take into account when you say 'main parties' that the main Westminster-represented non-English parties (their MP's in the main UK Parliament, not the devolved ones) in Scotland, Gibraltar, and Wales were almost all Remain, and even Northern Ireland was almost split 50/50 (10 leave, ie. DUP, and 8 Remain).

Position of political parties

[TimeSnowDemos]

11. Was... who cares about was?

They ARE currently pro-Brexit.

Their official policy is pro-Brexit. Their leader is pro-Brexit (and was before the vote as well). Corbyn voted AGAINST the formation of the EU and for the UK to leave the EEC, all the way back in the 1970s.

It also doesn't matter at all what fringe regional parties think. They have no power over Brexit.

The two main NATIONAL parties however, are both pro-Brexit.

The notion that the opinion of the Gibraltar Social Democrats is even being heard in Westminster is a farce, much less being listened to.

Before the vote is one thing, but now, which is what we're talking about, which is when Brexit is happening, your meaningful choices are pro-Brexit Labour and the pro-Brexit Tories.

[dsc]

13. Her majority is razor thin and depends upon the northern Ireland party

so at least that one is being listened to.

[TimeSnowDemos]

17. LOL

...this is a party that thinks dinosaurs are tricks sent by god to test the faith of the believers.... they have power because no one else would touch May and her disaster of a government.

They are NOT being listened to willingly, and in fact they've had to repeatedly make threats to get Westminsters attention... and even though that has happened repeatedly the Tories continue to try and throw them under the bus.

Considering how awful they are, it's kind of amusing... until you realise the disaster it represents for the UK, Ireland and the EU.

[Exotica]

14. Are you even British? I am (dual US/UK citizen but most of my life has been in London or other EU

nations). Labour is NOT NOW officially pro Brexit, and Corbyn has refused to rule out support for a 2nd referendum. I don't care what Corbyn did in the 1970's (I wasn't even born till the 1990's). He campaigned for Remain as soon as the official campaign season opened up in April 2016. I am a Labour Party member and I support our leadership, including Corbyn. The Tories were actually more split on Brexit than Labour was. The bampot Cameron never thought it would pass when he proposed the referendum. Even now the fucker calls it a mistake(now adding not a 'disaster').

It also doesn't matter at all what fringe regional parties think. They have no power over Brexit.

You must be having a laugh, as without the rotters in DUP, May wouldn't even have a Government.

[TimeSnowDemos]

16. As I said previously

I'm an EU/US citizen. I live in Ireland.

As for Labou, from their website:

"Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first."

Here's their website:

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/#first

Not a single word about Remain.

Lots of babble about how Labour can supposedly make a good Brexit - that's not a thing - but nothing about Remain, aside from, again, saying that Labour will respect the Brexit vote.

This is pro-Brexit by any other name.

What is, for example, Labour's plan to stay in the EU? What is their plan for a new referendum? They have neither and Corbyn is frankly not interested. I don't particularly understand the cult of personality around Corbyn, as he's accomplish nothing and his personal views on the biggest issue the country faces are out of step with the majority of Labour voters, but for some reason people like yourself are supporting Brexit by doing nothing to stop it.

It's your funeral, but it's still worrying that the UK has - like the US - become a laughingstock.

The DUP is the ONE example you can think of, and before the calamitous May snap election they had exactly as much power as the rest of the fringe parties over Brexit: none.

[Exotica]

33. Sorry about the confusion. I didnt realise you were the poster

from the other thread and group. Was typing on the train.

[TimeSnowDemos]

35. No worries

Stupid trains. Lol.

[Byronic]

19. 'Campaigned' is a bit of a strong term.

Corbyn (and McDonnell) are well known to be anti-EU. Their whole careers prove it. Corbyn, rightly, got a lot of stick from disappointed Remain voters because of just how lukewarm his support for the cause actually was. He paid it lip service but not much else. He was an immense disappointment in the referendum. David Cameron would attempt to arrange bipartisan events, and Corbyn wouldn't even return the calls.

I would never trust Corbyn when it comes to Europe.

I might be biased, because I knocked on doors, and campaigned like mad for Remain. My party, the Liberal Democrats, even in their admittedly weakened and pitiful state at the moment, were passionately against the threat of Brexit. The same simply cannot be said for Jeremy Corbyn.

[Exotica]

8. The Government is winning the votes to reject the Lord's amendments

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jun/12/brexit-no-10-rejects-last-minute-meaningful-vote-compromise-ahead-of-key-vote-politics-live?page=with%3Ablock-5b1fe59de4b0a90d612a6614

[malaise]

10. Damn

Thanks for this link

[Exotica]

15. YW! Keep up the great posts!

[malaise]

18. LOL n/t

[beachbum bob]

32. So sad...karma is a bitch

[Blue_Tires]

46. We saw this coming...

May was given an impossible task (Having their cake and eating it too, which Farage and his lackeys promised the voters)... Of course Farage never in his life expected it to win so he never set up any real plan for Brexit aside from some overly simplified rudimentary sketch

And Brexit+May was only going to become less popular as Britain sobered up and realized they got swindled into voting for pie in the sky that was never going to become reality...

[malaise]

47. May is a racist scumbag

like many in her party. Ask her about the WIndrush generation.

[Kentonio]

49. This was enjoyable..

Link to tweet

[malaise]

50. Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

[SoCalDem]

51. GB needs an immediate "do-over" Brexit re-vote

especially now that they know Putin meddled..

They should mail every voter a ballot and allow NO advertising..

They might find out decisively just what GB really wants

[malaise]

52. +1,000

All the collaborators need to be locked up -across the globe.