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DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 11:54 AM Jun 2018

So whom are holier-than-thou Jill-Stein-voters supposed to vote for?

Recent psychological studies have found the reason why people prefer to believe in conspiracy-theories: Because people want to be special. They want to be seen as smarter than they actually are.

In these studies, the test-subjects were more likely to believe a certain statement, if they were told beforehand that only very few people believe this to be true.

And I observed something similar on the internet, Alt-Right as well as extremist Left: People prefer to split the world into Black and White, into Good and Evil. Because if you declare the other side to be evil, that automatically makes you the hero. In one second you are a nobody, in the next second you are a heroic underdog fighting against the evil system.
And don't we all want to be heroes?





Which brings us to Jill-Stein-voters.

Trump is a bad person. So don't vote for him.
But Hillary Clinton is mainstream. How are you supposed to grandstand with your moral superiority if you vote for whom everybody else is already voting for?
Is there a way to vote for democratic ideals while preserving your "specialness" and not actually voting for Democrats? You need a third option... Something edgy... A candidate who somehow represents you but who also isn't too popular.

So, whom to vote for in 2018?

Trump is obviously still a bad person. So don't vote for him.
But on the other hand, 60% of the country thinks that Trump sucks. Can you in good conscience do what 60% of all the other people are already doing?

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WhiteTara

(29,718 posts)
1. Vote trump. He's their true leader
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 11:56 AM
Jun 2018

and they don't care if they take us all straight to hell; because we are mean to them. We are not tolerant of their intolerance.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
3. The Democrat on the General Election Ballot for Every Office.
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 11:59 AM
Jun 2018

That's who. Our elections are 95%+ binary. Either the Republican or the Democrat will win. Only votes for those candidates actually matter. If you vote for a third party candidate or don't vote at all, you don't have anything to do with who wins.

It's so simple. Primaries are where minority-position voters can move things. In the General you have two choices, one of which will take the office.

Pragmatism is, well, pragmatic. You can get part of what you want or none of what you want. You never get everything you want in individual elections for office. I have never been able to vote for anyone who believes exactly what I do. Only if I ran for office could I do that.

Coventina

(27,121 posts)
4. Thanks for the insight about believing in CT.
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 12:00 PM
Jun 2018

(wanting to believe they are smarter than most)

That makes so much sense! The behavior of some people I know personally totally fits with that.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
5. They don't vote at all because their position is that the lesser of two evils is still evil,
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 12:06 PM
Jun 2018

and they are too morally superior to vote for anyone who is even slightly evil. They just can't compromise their principles. I've known a few of these idiots (not Stein voters, but a few Naderites awhile ago).

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
8. Russel Brand said the same in an interview.
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 12:12 PM
Jun 2018

He was interviewed about 5 years ago but some stern old journalist and the topic came to politics.

Russel Brand's stance was that people should not vote for anybody until the perfect candidate of your dreams comes along. No compromises! That's the only way how politicians will learn that YOU are in control!!!

The journalist was at a loss of words.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
11. Yes, because that way you get to feel good about yourself
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 12:19 PM
Jun 2018

because of your moral rectitude that all those other compromised voters don't have. Who cares about the actual outcome as long as you got to feel pure?

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
7. Regarding conspiracy theories and their appeal...
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 12:10 PM
Jun 2018

I read a couple articles years ago about why people subscribe to and promote grand conspiracy theories. One of the most compelling points was that people want to feel a sense of control. They want to believe there's a fairly small evil cabal behind every ill that ails us, so that they can believe all will be right with the world if we simply thwart that small group of evildoers.

So, first they must make everyone aware of the evil cabal and how it is responsible for most, if not all, evil. When they are unsuccessful, I'm sure this leads to them believing they are smarter than all those naive 'sheeple'.

A lot of those folks really do mean well, at least initially. They have some of the same concerns that many of us have, but they can't handle complex reality--and then they spin out of control.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
10. Lol. You're forgetting the ones who don't know who
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 12:15 PM
Jun 2018

they'll vote for until the moment. Too bizarre, but they're real. No doubt some thought "Green Party" sounded pretty or liked the name Jill.

As for the rest, I suspect you're giving them way too much credit for thinking also. Introspection and self awareness are not their strong suits, and fringe-candidate voters are typically among the last people to be able to truly understand why they do what they do -- or they wouldn't effectively give their citizen power to whoever else is going to win via voting for some creepy-whacko guaranteed loser.

thucythucy

(8,069 posts)
13. Many years ago a good friend in the disability rights movement told me
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 12:32 PM
Jun 2018

"There are leaders and then there are anti-leaders."

He was talking about folks who show up at meetings and tear down each and every idea for meaningful action under the guise of "that's not radical enough. I'll only participate in actions that totally bring down the evil system. In the meantime, I'll make it impossible for others to plan anything short of a complete revolution."

Stein voters (and I know a few) always remind me of that comment. Stein is the quintessential anti-leader. Does nothing to further the progressive agenda, but actively campaigns to impede others.

Setting aside, of course, the whole paid for by Putin agenda.

Aristus

(66,388 posts)
14. Whoever is most likely to keep Trump and the GOP in power, I suppose.
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 12:33 PM
Jun 2018

That will show us how politically orthodox they are...

No one is going to tell them how to vote, by God!...

Caliman73

(11,738 posts)
15. Mostly true.
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 12:41 PM
Jun 2018

I am not sure that I would say they want to be "special" as much as I would say that they want to have "special information that no one else has".

Extremists often to engage in Binary thinking where decisions are clear with clear virtues and clear vices, with clear heroes and clear villains.

I have always maintained that economic models of any kind do not really work as stand alone systems except in very small communities. Communism and Capitalism tend to work well in smaller populations, but once you get past a certain point, there are issues that neither system addresses sufficiently. The answer is to take the best parts of both systems and try to work them together into something that works for the most people. HOWEVER, as you said, the idea of that offends the extremists on either side of the spectrum because then they do not hold the "answer".

I would also venture to say that people did not abstain from voting for Hillary Clinton because she was "mainstream". It happened because they became convinced, by a coordinated effort over the past 30+ years to paint Hillary Clinton as a corporate loving, lying, Machiavellian person. On one hand you have the populist right winger and on the other you have the Democratic Socialist who rails against the "billionaires" and forced into the middle you have the Left leaning pragmatist who knows more about politics, policy (foreign and domestic), than the other two could learn in a lifetime. Yet, she was an equally bad choice based on the information and biases that were held by the two poles.

It isn't so much about being special as it is about being correct and confirming your bias.

When you talk to extreme left people and, well now, just your average right winger, you will hear similar excuses about failures of policy and that response will be: "It/HE/SHE wasn't (liberal/conservative/whatever) enough" It can never be their policy or belief system that was incorrect, it has to be that it wasn't applied purely enough. That is the binary thinking and the confirmation bias.

I would suggest that voters select the candidate that can win, who will most fully support policies that are important to them. Stein will never win an election. No Green, Peace and Freedom, Libertarian, or other minor party candidate will win a national election. You have to look at the policy platforms of the viable candidates and choose the one that is most in line with your views.

Full disclosure, I was rooting for Bernie Sanders in the primary. When all of the information about the debates and suspending Sander's access to the database, and all that was coming out, I had reactions to it. I did not like how Wasserman-Schultz was handling some of what was happening. I also knew that whoever won the primary, would be my candidate because whoever that was, was going to be better than ANYONE the Republicans would be running because their platform and policies are against everything I stand for as a citizen.

Life is complicated. People are flawed and complicated. There is never going to be a candidate that has all upside and no downside. That is what adult life is about. When I was a little kid, my dad was the biggest, strongest, bravest man ever. I wanted to be like him. As I grew up, I saw the wrinkles, the flaws, the faults, and while he was no longer the biggest, strongest, bravest man ever; I STILL want to be like him in many ways because he is a good man. Ideals are great to strive for and no one should ever stop, but people need to understand that "the Revolution" may not bring you the outcome that you want. It may bring something much worse. It is better to try to pull the system to where it helps the most people by instilling your values into your children, by being active and informed, and by making the smartest choices of the people you want to represent your interests in government.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
16. Stein voters: lost cause, tiny sliver. How 'bout we talk about getting non-voters to the polls?
Fri Jun 29, 2018, 12:47 PM
Jun 2018

There is a vastly larger chunk of gettable voters; many don't vote because they aren't all that motivated. Many don't vote because of work or family obligations, or because GOP suppression tactics work (voter ID, registry purges). Those are all things that we could help address.

Continuing to obsess on Stein just makes us look seriously mentally ill.

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