The meaning of Civil Disobedience, Civility, Civil Society. Some need clarification...

[Hekate]

This started as a response to someone saying John Lewis was "civil" when his skull got broken on Pettis Bridge. I tried to expand on my post because I think there is an important discussion to be had about the meaning of "civil" versus "civil disobedience." However my page crashed more than once, and rather than trying to retrieve my thoughts, I am going to mostly just copy my old post here.

I invite a discussion. We need it.
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John Lewis was engaged in civil disobedience (so-called to distinguish it from criminal disobedience) and passive resistance.

The entire movement was not about saying "Howdy do, folks, thanks for breaking my skull and firehosing my friends into the street."

It was about expressing your right to live in civil society, go to school, ride a bus, and be served coffee at a public counter -- standing, sitting, walking where racists do not want you to be, and passively letting them hurt you and arrest you in front of cameras for the whole world to see.

This is street theater where people get hurt and even die. It does not work without mass media present to inform the world of the appalling injustice of the larger society.

Mahatma Ghandi developed it and used it for this exact reason, and ultimately the British couldn't take it any more and let India go. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. studied Ghandi and adapted the method for use in this country -- and the rest of the country was appalled. I was a little kid when the images of snarling police dogs and faces twisted with hate came into our living room via TIME, LIFE, and a b/w tv.

Civil disobedience is not the same as civilly passing the crumpets to a racist in your home. By the same token, you get to decide what sort of behavior you are willing to speak out against wherever you are. Publicly Shaming a member of this nakedly fascist regime seems like an idea whose time has come -- just be prepared to take the consequences.

NB: The issue of passively taking the beatings got to be old for some in the movement after several years. See: Malcolm X, Huey Newton, et al.

[Hekate]

1. Self-kick

[planetc]

2. I too remember the first time the country saw ...

fire hoses being turned on unarmed people. The dogs were still leashed, but you could see they wanted prey. And I remember a wave of revulsion going through the (white) middle class at the means being used to control the descendants of slaves. Who wanted to vote. And then somebody killed John Kennedy. And then LBJ got some legislation through congress.

And after all these years, I have concluded that the civil war never ended. Armies ceased fighting each other, but resentment lived on. That resentment is alive and well today. And it is organized, with outliers in many police forces. Just what exactly is the difference between the Ferguson, MO police force and the Ku Klux Klan? No practical difference that I can see.

[Hekate]

3. For all the changes that had taken place in civil (civitas) society, and in the law...

...closet racists still lived among us to an extent I would not have believed until Trump came along and emboldened them to act out in daily life. The ugly incidents taking place in my own state of California are absolutely vile, and I can only say I am glad for cell phones to document and shame the perps. The cowardice of their behavior is all the more disgusting in that the 3 recorded here are all women picking on children in public space: BBQ Becky, Permit Patty, and shall we call her Swimming Pool Susie.

[RandomAccess]

4. King's civil disobedience was also a spiritual undertaking

People trained (as they do now, if they're smart), and prayed beforehand and during and saw it as the spiritual pursuit it was.

Done right, civil disobedience is incredibly powerful. I don't now that Gandhi was speaking only about civil disobedience in this quote, but it certainly applies:

First they ignore you
Then they laugh at you
Then they fight you
Then you win - Gandhi


Frankly, they key part is: then they fight you. Dr. King knew, as I'm sure his followers did, that the breaking point came once their peaceful protest was met with physical violence. For his protests, the nation was shocked, and consciences aroused to see that happen to peaceful protesters. And that's when things started to change.

[Hekate]

5. Exactly right. It's by nature confrontational, and so is dangerous to do. It's time again, sadly.

[RandomAccess]

6. True, but it's only "confrontational" in the sense that

well -- one of my favorite quotes:

The only call it class war when we fight back.


And of course:

Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never has and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress. - Frederick Douglass

[Hekate]

7. Power concedes nothing without a demand -- ever.

Thanks for keeping this going. I hope a few others drop by eventually.

[RandomAccess]

8. Me too

But if not, don't take it too hard. I've had a LOT of really great threads that went nowhere: bad subject liness, bad timing, and who knows what else.