Democrats: Quit listening to "civility" scolds and concern trolls: This is an emergency

[DonViejo]

Nothing can be gained by Democrats trying to play nice with the current GOP. But everything can be lost

AMANDA MARCOTTE
JULY 6, 2018 10:00AM (UTC)

Halfway through 2018, it's clear that the year will be remembered by the history books as a time when the Donald Trump administration started its drastic escalation of what amounts to an ethnic cleansing campaign aimed at nonwhite immigrants. So far, the administration has made it a priority to shake the trees to find every legal avenue possible to throw out people Trump considers too dark-skinned. This has included getting the Supreme Court to approve a Muslim travel ban, finding legal loopholes to prosecute people who are legitimately seeking political asylum, and ending temporary protected status for hundreds of thousands of people from countries such as Haiti and El Salvador.

Now the administration is even exploring the possibility of denaturalizing immigrants who are now U.S. citizens by accusing them of lying on their applications. This is quite possibly a test case as to whether Trump's enforcers can move towards blatantly violating the law when they're trying to kick people out of the country, without drawing any Republican blowback. (Answer: Probably!)

With the country slouching towards fascism, it's important to note what the national news media considers a majority priority for coverage: Scolding the left for being too upset about the white nationalist agenda of the White House and trying to drum up intra-Democratic drama. Unfortunately, too many leaders on the Democratic side are falling for this, which can be easily avoided by a simple strengthening of backbone.

Endless amounts of column inches and cable-news airtime are now devoted to two propositions: That the left is getting too rowdy in their opposition to Trump's racist agenda, and that Democratic leaders have a responsibility to scold left-wing activists about the importance of not resisting authoritarianism too sternly. In some cases, this takes the form of getting the vapors at progressives who are "uncivil" by protesting Trump officials in public places like restaurants. In others, it's about scolding those who support supposedly radical notions like the abolition of ICE, even though similar lectures are not directed at conservatives who supporting far more radical proposals to abolish the IRS.

The typical structure of these arguments is that of a concern troll: The person telling progressives to simmer down will inevitably cast himself as a concerned party who wants Democrats to win, but believes these tactics are only hurting that agenda and believes the best path forward for the party is to maximize internal sniping over nonsense.

more
https://www.salon.com/2018/07/06/democrats-quit-listening-to-civility-scolds-and-concern-trolls-this-is-an-emergency/

[Garrett78]

1. Amen!

[Cha]

2. I agree.. it doesn't make any sense! Not

in the age of the fucking Fascist Unhinged Monster.

Link to tweet

We still have the high road.. so don't worry about that.

[NY_20th]

3. This administration is not acceptable

and I reject anyone who tries to normalize it, especially the media.

We have every right to be angry and to fight back. He's a monster.

[Raster]

4. I believe that some in our Party's leadership wistfully long for the good ol' days...

... when disagreement and civility went hand-in-hand, and all parties could be counted on to do what was best for the Country.

THOSE. DAYS. ARE. GONE...

The GOP is now the Party of tRump*. Civility is no longer an option. Republicans will now always put their decrepit party over Country. Always.

VOTE. EVERY. REPUBLICAN. OUT. OF. OFFICE.
No excuses. No exceptions.

We should be exercising civil disobedience and shaming whenever and wherever we can.

[Boomerproud]

32. Those who insist on playing nice when this much is at stake deserve to go home.

What we have now is not leadership.

[forgotmylogin]

47. The "can't you be civil" card is now out of play.

It was trumped by the "I really don't care do U?" card.

[Raastan]

5. K + R

[gratuitous]

6. Yup!

Some of the concern trolls are really obvious: "This column cautioning liberals from being too shrill was written by someone with a sinecure at Red State or the National Review and therefore is someone who has only the best interest of the Democrat Party at heart. Do what he says or you're partisan!"

Some are less so: "Yes, Trump and his minions have done and are doing some pretty horrible things, including committing crimes against humanity. But is that really any reason to say a swear? This issue is over, and Trump has won because some celebrity rando couldn't control his or her potty mouth."

[Historic NY]

7. Civility gets us what?

Pretty soon it will be borscht.

[SamKnause]

8. Fuck civility. !!!!!!!!!

We are fighting for our lives and our country !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pacifist Patriot]

9. Could not agree with her more!

Intrigued about getting her book now.

[LanternWaste]

10. The "this makes DU look bad" contingent have been relegated to ignore.

There is no substance in their arguments, merely appeals to emotion.

There is no hard data in their argument, simply rhetoric.

There is no solution in their argument, just criticism of Democrats for not being nicer.

In effect, their empty arguments are a waste of time and are by their very definition, the same division they so righteously rail against.

[Caliman73]

11. I agree with Marcotte, except for the "emergency" thing.

Civility, like many other concepts that the right wingers try to corrupt for their purposes, is a vague term. It means whatever you want it to mean. Obviously calling someone an "asshole" or "shit head" or one of the many gender or race loaded words, is not civil. Telling someone they are acting like a fascist when they are in fact acting like a fascist, or telling them that they should be ashamed of themselves for defending a policy attacking Mexicans and other Latinos, while eating at a Mexican restaurant; is certainly assertive and even aggressive but it is protest and as such there is always a contextual element in judging it. Republicans know this but they excel in making themselves into victims for things that they do repeatedly and in worse ways.

I do think that there is room to discuss the issue however. Noting that nothing done to Miller, Neilsen, or Huckabee-Sanders and nothing said by Congresswoman Maxine Waters was in anyway "over the line". We do need to police ourselves so that we do not cross the line into violence and making threats. That is what right wingers do and we should not venture into their territory of being complete assholes. NOT because it "gives them ammunition", they do not need ammunition. They lie, steal, kill, and do everything to maintain their fleeting grasp on power, they don't need "harsh words" from a Congresswoman to cry victim hood. We don't do it because it is incredibly difficult to claim righteousness when you have engaged in threats, violence, and killing, even when you think your cause is righteous. The right wingers think that what they are doing is righteous in the name of Jesus and America. They are wrong and we all know it. We are fighting for the survival of our way of life, but we shouldn't throw out the tenets of our way of life to save our way of life.

We need to be out there, in the streets in the faces of Miller, Neilsen, Huckabee-Sanders, Trump, and all his family. We need to tell them the truth. They are disgusting people who are destroying the "American Way" and traitors and kidnappers, and bigots, and everything else, and we need to remind them of that at the mall, restaurants, movies, or wherever else they go in public. We need to do it in ways that are not violent and destructive.

[Liberalhammer]

12. Punch back

When they punch, punch back twice as hard.

[DeminPennswoods]

16. Surprisingly this works!

nt

[KPN]

22. It's the only thing that works to neutralize bullies. It's the only thing they respect. In fact,

anything less only fuels their disdain for "weakness". And they define weakness as anything, any behavior, any policy, any decision, any person that gives one inch to the other side -- even while they are gaining 5, 10, 11 or 20 inches.

Yes, punch back, but harder and twice for good measure!

[backscatter712]

64. Those of you into Star Trek Discovery know about the Vulcan Hello...

Sounds like the right wing needs a few of those...

[Salviati]

30. When they go low, that's when you kick them in the teeth.

[lagomorph777]

44. Or the ass.

[ehrnst]

13. I think that a good cop/bad cop strategy works the best.

I see that going on now. Dems have never walked lockstep, and that's been our strength.

The ability to have those who promote outward resistance, and those who do the stealth resistance under cover of "civility" can both be supported, if not agreed with.

[Caliman73]

23. That is possible. However, they need to avoid actively interfering with each other.

I see the value in both outward and systemic resistance. My issue is when the two camps start taking shots at each other rather than focusing on the true opponent. We can get in people's faces without being horribly nasty and mean spirited. It is about calling a spade a spade. As much as he is maligned on DU these days, Alan Grayson was pretty good at calling the Republicans out, like when he talked about their health plan:

"The Republican health care plan: don't get sick ... The Republicans have a back up plan in case you do get sick ... This is what the Republicans want you to do. If you get sick America, the Republican health care plan is this: Die quickly!"

Blunt and true.

Maxine Waters is being blunt and truthful.

People like Raul Grijalva, Corey Booker, etc... are fighting from within. Equally important. I was bothered by Nancy Pelosi (who I usually love and defend) and Chuck Schumer calling what Maxine Waters is doing "unAmerican".

[ehrnst]

24. Corey Booker is criticizing Maxine's take on approaching politicians in restaurants

How is that "fighting from within" and different from what Nancy is doing?

[Caliman73]

28. I had not known that about Booker.

It is no different. If Booker is criticizing her then he needs to chill as well.

They should let Maxine fight her fight and they should fight theirs. I am not targeting Nancy Pelosi just because she is Nancy Pelosi. She is the face of the Democratic Party right now as is Chuck Schumer. They need to back up their people or at least deflect and not directly go after people who have a different approach.

[ehrnst]

34. I think that's exactly what they are doing.

No one is telling Maxine to be quiet. Booker, Pelosi, and Bernie Sanders (yes, he came down in favor of Sanders-Huckabee intead of the Red Hen owner) et all are not telling all Democrats to stop being angry and taking any action. They are expressing their (and many people out who are indeed balking at Dear Leaders' piggishness) discomfort at the confrontational approach. Also, Maxine's constituents voted her in knowing that she's going to be confrontational. The others, not so much. But they will all stand behind the same goals and that is what makes them Dems. Paul Wellstone would never have confronted anyone in a restaurant - and that characteristic gave him the ability to work more effectively with others even accross the aisle on issues that were bipartisan. Alan Grayson was very flamboyant and mobilizing. They were both progressives, like Maxine and Nancy, Bernie, Corey, etc - and they all are contributing. None should be damned on this issue alone.

Nancy and Maxine and Booker will promote the same progressive policies. There is no reason to shun any as less than progressive.

In fact, Pelosi is fiercely defending Maxine against DT's far, far more uncivil behavior in her direction.

I truly believe that Maxine is drawing fire to make the Leadership look moderate, and she is on board with them publicly being to her right on this, and being who their constituents elected. We have room for both opinions on approaching GOPs dining in restaurants - we have bigger issues that we all agree on. It's the tactics to get there that vary.

Democrats do not walk lockstep, and despite what some progressives may say - that is our strength, not weakness. Manifestos will serve us less now than at any other time - we need a big tent for those who are with us on social justice and economic justice goals not a velvet rope and a bouncer asking questions like "are you team Maxine or team Nancy/Bernie concerning whether or not people should confront GOP leaders at lunch?"

We do not have that luxury at this point in our history.

[Caliman73]

41. Schumer said that what Waters called for is "unAmerican"

Pelosi at least parsed her language but oddly talked about Making America Beautiful Again.

You are correct. We do have room for both approaches and opinions. I have defended Nancy Pelosi more times than I can remember on this forum. Nancy is a strong leader and we need her. Like I said, at this point we need to minimize even the appearance of infighting.

If I lived in Pelosi's district I would gladly vote for her just as I would if I lived in Water's district.

[ehrnst]

42. We are on the same page, really.

Imma let Nancy and Maxine and Bernie and Corey come down on whatever side they think their constituents want them to.

We need them all.

[Caliman73]

45. Well.. not Bernie

JOKE JOKE before anyone piles on.

I agree. The strength and peril within the Democratic Party is the same. Our ability to have differing opinions while having a core of beliefs about how government should be a benefit to the people not just to the wealthiest.

[ehrnst]

62. ...

Cheers!

[kcr]

40. I agree, as long as part of that isn't attacking others with concern trolling.

I understand and support that not everyone resists in the same way. It shouldn't be all the same because we aren't all the same. I'm just tired of the civility trolling. It actually helps Trump because they're almost always based on false equivalencies that weaken our arguments and downplay and normalize Trump.

[ehrnst]

43. I don't think that Booker and Bernie are helping DT when they talk the

way that their constituents expect them to concerning people in restaurants.

[kcr]

46. I wasn't talking about Booker or Bernie

I didn't read the subthread when I responded to you. I'm trying not to get involved in the whole Dems in Disarray! BS being whipped up because some people disagree with Dem politicians. I disagree with what they said but their disagreement with their colleagues isn't quite what I was talking about. I'm talking more about things like broad, sweeping pronouncements filled with false equivalencies every time someone criticizes Trump or his followers using what they feel is overly harsh language. Things like calling them a bad name, or using foul language, is just as bad as separating families and incarcerating children.

[ehrnst]

52. So who were you talking about? When did they make

"sweeping pronouncements filled with false equivalencies every time someone criticizes Trump or his followers using what they feel is overly harsh language."

When did anyone "equate" speaking harshly about Trump with putting kids in cages? Other than the GOP?

I think that the things that people mistake for Disarray are disagreements on tactics. I think there is room in the party for those who think that GOP individuals should be confronted, and those that think they don't think that will help. We don't have to walk lockstep, and there isn't just one side or another on this (false dillema) that one and only one personhas the corner on "representing progressive ideology and Democrats," in this situation.

[ehrnst]

63. Crickets...

Not surprised.

[backscatter712]

59. The MLK Jr./Malcom X strategy.

Play nice, and you get to work out solutions in a civil way with MLK Jr.

Fuck with us, and you get Malcolm X...

[TomVilmer]

14. Name-calling and fake arguments are just lazy work

I do find making fun of anybody entertaining, but politically it is not working.

Yes, trump is fat, yellow and has lost his hair. So has I and many others - this body shaming is not helping to unite us. And yes, Trump has problems reading and putting words together, but so has about half of the population. Making fun of this problem is making fun of all illiterates. Overcompensating for insecurity, telling stories not totally truthful and such - we have all been there. If this president had been a Joe Biden, most of these faults would just have been endearing.

Trump has done so much BS politically. It is so easy to ridicule him on his political actions. Please try that - and leave the smear campaigns with little substance and butchered facts to the Republicans. They are much better to that game - let them hang them selves by being the only ones playing kinder garden.

?

[Moostache]

19. I disagree with every premise you put forth

All of them.

1) Making fun of people is NOT entertaining...unless you are a sociopath, then it might be good sport, I will have to guess because I do not know, and I will extend your sentiments the benefit of the doubt, once.

2) Comparing Joe Biden to Trump and insinuating that their is even a whiff of equivalency is offensive. Biden made gaffes, Trump flat out lies on purpose. There is absolutely no comparison to be made there, period.

3) Suggesting even tangentially that the solution is acquiescence to Republican bullying has NEVER worked, not once. We are in a fight and you are seemingly suggesting we should channel Jesus of Nazareth and take it.

NO!
NO!!
NO!!!

The current GOP is a badge of cowardice and ignorance wrapped in the flag (improperly worn), with a Bible (unread) and full view racism. There is NO COMMON GROUND there... There is no "high road".... There is right and wrong.

They are wrong.
We are right.

Pretending this is a civil disagreement is what led to the status quo.

The status quo must go.
By any means necessary.

[SunSeeker]

21. "Pretending this is a civil disagreement is what led to the status quo."

That's it in a nutshell.

[TomVilmer]

31. When it became necessary for you to destroy civility to save the civilization...

... you had already lost everything. Enjoy your race to the bottom. Thankfully there is still hope, since better people like Elizabeth Warren knows how to do this right:

Link to tweet

Please do not stand in her way.

[catbyte]

50. So what is your solution? Seriously, I'm interested.

[TomVilmer]

53. You are?

Then read what I wrote.

I enjoy the civility of people like Michelle Obama and Elizabeth Warren, since they can stay on that level and fight bravely at the same time. Pacifism has never been Passivism. It is actively working for a better society in ways, that at the same time shows what a world we would like to have and live in. It is doing it in ways we can easily defend, making (my) children and grandmothers proud of how we do the fight.

Trying to understand our opponents, and addressing them in ways they might understand. Talking nicely to people shouting, never ever stopping the fight to make changes. I have been doing my activism in nearly 50 years, are still active on a daily basis, and can look back at defeats, but also many victories.

[catbyte]

68. Under normal circumstances I'd agree with you 100%, but these are not normal times.

We are facing an existential threat and it's time for resistance, not "civility." I know that screaming at each other accomplishes nothing, but vociferously and continually calling out blatant lies, criminality, inhumanity, and treasonous behavior are the only moral actions to take. Down thread, I quoted the daughter of a woman who lived in Nazi Germany. We are close to that now.

[TomVilmer]

69. Do you remember the Soviet Union?

Once there was an authoritarian block of states. Then it was gone.

USSR fell because of good people inside fighting peacefully, overturning a giant military power and the tightest security police ever seen. Compare that to Trump, and get to work - he is way more easy to topple.

Go on the internet, and find friends among the protesters from the Eastern block at that time. Learn how they did it - and then they might learn themselves how to do it again!

[ehrnst]

27. And so tell me, what is your definition of "status quo"

And who is suggesting, even tangentally "aquiescence to Republican bullying."

"There is right and wrong!"

And the inability to see any shades of grey, or any situation without a clear WIN is where the Right wing gets it wrong, and how we got people to stay at home on election day, if they saw the least bit of grey in a candidate...

It's always been the job of gadflies and those in the party to the right and left to make the leaders seem more like the mainstream. When the party stops understanding the need for those on both sides of center we go off the rails.

That's just reality. I also have some experience on the Hill, and understand that one tactic of drawing fire and attention away from what is really going on behind the scenes is creating theatre.

I really think that the good/cop bad cop scenario is going on right now - with the consent of all involved.

It certainly got you worked up and angry enough, didn't it?

We all know that angry people are active people. However, Democrats pride ourselves on logic, and not letting the lizard "fight or flight" part of the brain rule us like it does the MAGA humpers. It might be boring at times, but it allows us to have an actual big tent...

[KPN]

35. THIS

[KPN]

33. "...leave the smear campaigns with little substance and butchered facts to the Republicans"???

"Let them, hang themselves by being the only ones playing kindergarten."????

I have to disagree. In the course of my personal life, i.e., things that directly or indirectly involve only me and the people I associate with, I would agree. But we are talking about a current epidemic that may very well adversely affect our entire nation and all of its people, as well the people of other nations throughout the world, for one, two or more generations!

Smear campaigns with little substance and butchered facts is exactly what got the GOP control of the WH, Congress and now the SCOTUS not to mention the majority of State legislatures and Governorships throughout the country! They are in the driver's seat because of their use of unethical and, quite likely, even illegal behavior and tactics. We need to fight fire with fire. There is too much at risk for too many people to pussyfoot around with the notion that Americans are smarter, better informed, wiser, more reasonable, prudent and self-interested than the results of recent elections have actually shown. I'm not saying we need to resort to illegal acts, but we definitely need to smear the hell out of every frigging R we can every opportunity we get ... and we need to do it in a manner that puts bullies in their place, and that's by punching back harder.

Now is not the time to be meek or worry about ethical rules of conduct. If they are assholes, we need to call them assholes.

[backscatter712]

60. "They go low, we go high" doesn't work.

It's a great sentiment, and I love the Obamas for it, but these are fascists we're dealing with.

Better strategy: When they go low, stomp on their fucking heads!

[EricJohnson]

15. I think Rep Waters has the correct idea.

[DeminPennswoods]

17. Avenatti, too

nt

[EricJohnson]

18. I agree.

[Butterflylady]

29. I also agree with the above.

Putting the truth out is, I repeat is the only way to go. The truth is never wrong. Rep. Waters is fighting with the truth on her side. If telling it the way it is, then so be it.

[KPN]

36. Ditto.

[SunSeeker]

20. K & R

[world wide wally]

25. Give 'em he'll, Harry!

[AllaN01Bear]

26. they never gave us with kerry. endless hearings with bill. endless hearings with hillary,

endless hearings with obama, stole the election in 2000 from gore. stole the election from hillary. trying to sabotage o care . and others . on and on and on. i will not stoop to their level and their level is in the basement below shopping level. its fun to watch that felgercarebe blow back in the idiots face.ps; remember how they slandered kerry with that stupid non existing swift boat thing. hem

[KPN]

37. K&R. Spot on!

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

38. There is a line in the movie

Mississippi Burning that echoes this. Dafoe and Hackman are FBI and working the civil rights leaders disappearance case. Hackman wants to get a bit rougher with the suspects. Dafoe sats 'Do you mean we should get down in the gutter with these people?' Hackman replies 'you've gotta remember, these people came up from the sewer'

[vlyons]

39. We don't need to play nice. We are nice.

and ethical, compassionate, fair-minded, patriotic, and expect decency and integrity from our elected officials. Being unafraid to raise a big stick over corruption, lies, hypocracy, and bad incompeternt goveranance has nothing to do with being nice.

[catbyte]

48. This is how I feel about so-called "civility":

[IMG][/IMG]

[lunasun]

51. +++ 110% this. Apathetic vs not toleranting intolerance ....hmmm

[backscatter712]

61. PREACH IT!

[eleny]

49. They got their wish - political correctness is going out the window

Now they can deal with it.
..... .....

[MadDAsHell]

54. Many "concern trolls" tried to warn us about the possible 2016 outcome...

and were laughed off DU.

“Thanks for your ‘concern.’ Trump will never be President, we don’t need someone farther left, Hillary will win 49 states, blah blah blah.”

Concern trolling exists, but on DU it’s often simply an attack label on any disagreement, and that attack is just as divisive as actual concern trolling is.

[wiggs]

55. This is why I'm off listening to most political and talk shows. They are missing the forest for the

trees. Talking about the day's bad behavior without talking about how it fits into the big picture is irresponsible even though it might be good for ratings.

We have an emergency on our hands (watch last Friday's Real Time to get a sense of the urgency)....and very few media outlets are stepping back from analyzing the daily misdeed to give context properly. Few talking about the diseased forest...many aren't even talking about the trees...but rather are missing the forest for the groundcover and shrubs.

For example, I used to listen when I could to POTUS's Press Pool...but so much time is spent on trivial insider topics (though often engaging and entertaining) that I can't get interested when there are so so many more critical issues to think about in politics right now. There's something to be said for fiddling while Rome burns but there isn't enough acknowledgement of the fire...even semi-important issues seem like fluff in comparison.

And the article is correct...not just media...many of our dem leaders are doing the same for some reason. If the voting public isn't aware of the problem...they won't come up with the right voting outcome.

[still_one]

56. FFS just vote Democratic in November 2018. Which part of that statement is too difficult to

understand?

[Lunabell]

57. We're in the fight for our lives!

And the lives of so many oppressed people. I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!

[backscatter712]

58. A-fucking-men. We've had causis belli against the fascist right for 30 years now.

Why does anyone think the redhats deserve an ounce of civility?

Damned right we should be ignoring the civility scolds. We should talk civility AFTER we've curbstomped the fascists. Then regular people can live in peace.

[Gothmog]

65. Joy Reid interviews Melanie Campbell, chair of Sisters Lead, Sisters Vote

Link to tweet

[dustyscamp]

66. He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster - Nietzshe

A little less civility is alright just don't throw it all out the window.

[american_ideals]

67. This is EXACTLY right.

The most important thing progressives can do now is signal that this is an abnormal political moment. That it's worth speaking out and standing up - we need to be at the barricades via peaceful protest.

Let's do that. Peaceful protest, but protest.