General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWorking Class Politics 'Not Just for the Bronx': Ocasio-Cortez Debunks 'Too Far Left'
From the article:
Echoing what has become a go-to talking point among prominent Democrats in the aftermath of democratic socialist Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's landslide victory over New York Rep. Joe Crowley in last week's primary election, Sen. Tammy Duckworth (D-Ill.) asserted without evidence on Sunday that candidates can't "go too far to the left and still win the Midwest."
To read more:
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/07/02/working-class-politics-not-just-bronx-ocasio-cortez-debunks-too-far-left-warning?utm_term=
northremembers
(63 posts)Considering how red the Midwest is it's hard to imagine doing worse. Chicago is blue. North Dakota is red. Fight for what you believe in. You'll feel better, have a stronger mandate, and you might win some more voters over.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)As if she doesn't already? Do you know ANYTHING about her?
That's just an ignorant post.
northremembers
(63 posts)You're right. She is a very outspoken leader who has been out in front for what she believes in. I cheered when she took her baby out on the Senate floor to vote. When she says don't go too far left to someone else I don't see her standing up for what she believes in.
For decades I've been watching Democrats "not go too far left". After 9/11 Democrats decided not to obstruct a president who had no regard for the best interests of our country. They lost twice. In the aftermath of the 2008 recession the Democrats tirelessly tried to work with Republicans and put forward purple policy. We got the Tea Party Rebellion. In 2016 Democrats campaigned as "the responsible ones". We got Trump instead. Blue Conservatism doesn't work. I am NOT saying Sen. Duckworth is a blue conservative. I think her statement was inconsistent with who she has been.
We are all seeing a lot of nervous looks from the Democratic establishment at the young Democrats. The establishment way failed. In the last 22 years the Democrats have controlled Congress 4 of those years. All we have to show for all that compromise is a lot of policy most Democrats wish they hadn't voted for.
I can see what's going on. The Democratic leadership is seeing we have a shot to win and they look at younger Democrats and say "don't blow it". What that says to me is they are afraid to be liberal. It's a problem our party has had since Reagan was president. We forget how liberalism cured the Great Depression, won WWII, built suburban America, won the Space Race, won the Cold War, and guided the world to a peaceful end to the 20th Century. Whenever we run from who we are the conservatives chase us down and claim victory.
While Democrats compromised, Republicans have shamelessly run further to the right. They continuously shut down the government, use public resources to witch hunt Democrats, and partner with our enemies against the American people. What has that gotten them? Everything.
We do have a shot this election. If a blue victory is going to mean anything, though, we have to win as liberals. We have to rally people to vote for what we believe in. In order to do that we need to be CONFIDENTLY united on the left. This election we need to set aside caution and embrace inspiration.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)great Democrat because she's being pragmatic and stating a self evident truth at the moment when our country is in its greatest danger.
This insistence that everyone veer left and slavishly push policies THAT LOST IN THE LAST PRIMARY, rather than each candidate gearing their approach to their constituency, which is what sane people know we need to do, has no other purpose than to divide.
And in case you haven't noticed, Democrats have been overwhelmingly winning elections since 2016
northremembers
(63 posts)I admire Sen. Duckworth. I think she is courageous and was caught off guard by her remark. The statement she made to other candidates struck a nerve with me that has much more to do with many failures over decades by people other than Sen. Duckworth. The cautious approach has not paid off for us and it's time for a different plan.
I'm not saying we should veer left. If we're liberals then I assume we are already on the left. I'm saying we shouldn't run from who we are. Sen. Duckworth doesn't run from who she is and neither should any of the rest of us. Ocasio-Cortez has sparked excitement and gotten us talking about how we want to lead instead of what we are against. It's a healthy dialogue and long overdue. As a diverse group we will all have different ideas about our collective identity. That's healthy, too. We don't all have to be on the same place on the left. We just need to be confident and unafraid about being on the left. That's all I'm trying to say.
BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)The only reward we have gotten from Republicans and voters over the years for playing nice is time off for good behavior.
disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)sheshe2
(83,654 posts)You may find some of the following details distressing
Duckworth was a captain with the Illinois National Guard when she was called up to serve in Iraq. It was a war she disagreed with, but she fully accepted the responsibility to go there and fight.
snip
She leaned forward to get the GPS co-ordinates to report where the helicopter had been shot.
"Right then, bam, the fireball happened in my lap with an RPG [rocket-propelled grenade] going off," she told The Axe Files.
"It took off most of the back of my right arm because I had that forward. It blew off my right leg, it basically evaporated.
"My left leg was kicked up into an instrument. The force of that sheared it almost off, it was hanging on a little bit."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42803733
How dare you question her fight for what she believes in.
Cha
(296,857 posts)beyond the pale.
Thank you for providing some Common Sense. Looks like they'll go to all kinds of extremes to DISS Senator Tammy Duckworth.. and for why.. because she spoke the truth and they can't handle it.
RandySF
(58,511 posts)I remember when Duckworth was savaged, by similar groups (encourage by primary opponent Christine Cegalis) during the 2006 congressional primaries, possibly costing her the general election. Thank God Tammy was able to pick herself up and eventually reach the U.S. Senate. Cegalis is now an Illinois footnote.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)who ran against his own increasingly incoherent record.
RandySF
(58,511 posts)former9thward
(31,941 posts)And never really recovered from it.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But rather than resign, he stayed in the Senate.
Cha
(296,857 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)THAT is what I was saying.
Cha
(296,857 posts)beat him.
I stand with Senator Duckworth, who knows what she's talking about.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Squinch
(50,916 posts)won his primary in a landslide.
People on either side of this debate who are insisting that "Every Democrat has to run the same way and it has to be MY way" are friggin' morons.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)from the Midwest. Paul Wellstone springs to mind, as does Lane Evans, a progressive from western Illinois.
Marie Newman, a progressive newcomer, nearly beat Dan Lipinski in a District hand tailored for the Lipinski family. His father, William Lipinski, was the previous Congressman until he retired to become a railroad lobbyist.
Luis Gutierrez is also fairly progressive.
I think that many of us believe that the electorate is far more progressive than the media would have us believe.
RandySF
(58,511 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But speculation of the possible outcome is useless now.
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)And of course without billionaire money into WI he almost certainly would have won.
Feingold should be in the Senate.
This whole GOP Senate majority is illegitimate.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)way is a friggin' moron.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)When should Democrats debate what the terms of the debate should be?
Are we to allow a corporate media and a fascist GOP to define what is possible?
Squinch
(50,916 posts)a corporate media and fascist GOP define her candidacy?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But the questions are my own. Are we as Democrats to allow the GOP and a corporate media to define what is possible?
It seems to me that the terms of what is possible have been moving steadily rightward, even as the electorate supports things like single payer (whatever the name) and unionization, and a living wage, and state subsidized tuition.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)media to define what is possible? No one. So what is your point?
Here's one: are we as Democrats going to insist that everyone move as far left as you or I might want them to, thereby losing some redder districts? Because, once again, that's moronic.
And by the way, it seems to me like you STILL haven't read the platform.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But if a Democratic Senator votes for GOP SCOTUS nominees, and votes with the GOP on other issues, what is the value on that initial after the name?
Squinch
(50,916 posts)same?
This is bullshit. I'm not having this idiotic argument.
If you can't see the value of having as many Democrats as possible, if TODAY, in the state we are in TODAY, you still can't see it, if you are STILL going to insist that everyone must be as pure as you or they are worthless, and that everyone has to run just as YOU want them to, then I have nothing to say to you.
What the everloving fuck.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And yes, it does relate to the local politics of each specific state.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)painfully clear for all to see.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I did ask if primary challenges are to be discouraged.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)And are De Vos financed primaries to challenge a strong Democrat to be discouraged? Are you really asking that question?
Yes. De Vos financed primaries to challenge a strong Democrat are to be discouraged. Unless you are someone who likes what is happening in our country today and wants to see more of it.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)one that vote against us 100% of the time. People can toss out unicorn and fairy dust scenarios, but facts are facts, Joe can win in his state and he is with us most of the time.
mcar
(42,278 posts)That would make a Democrat Senate Majority leader. Who controls the Senate and what bills get put before it. Who controls investigations, etc.
But surely you know that.
Cha
(296,857 posts)who Won on Health Issues and ACA.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)even purple districts as social Democrats is madness...with all due respect Ms cortez is in a deep blue district. And I would counsel her to get elected before taking on established Democrats especially someone like Tammy Duckworth.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)We all know that.
Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)sheshe2
(83,654 posts)49. Every candidate must determine the type of campaign he/she will run.
We all know that.
Not everyone here knows that!
Cha
(296,857 posts)"forgotten" any of that.. nice of you to question her memory, though.
mcar
(42,278 posts)Funny how people forget that on a regular basis.
RandySF
(58,511 posts)But she seems more interested in waging an intra-party food fight than the talk of winning the House. But I guess it'seasy to do when you the luxury of a guaranteed win in November.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)because I come to the opposite conclusion from reading her interviews.
sheshe2
(83,654 posts)I must see something different.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and a socialist. She never made the argument that many here, including Senator Duckworth, are fighting against. This is a manufactured controversy unsupported by Ocasio-Cortez's own statements.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)But she is quick to respond to anyone that try to define her. My guess, in the House, she becomes a classic late 60s liberal.
mcar
(42,278 posts)So many things to attack Rs on.
theaocp
(4,233 posts)Define it. Then we can discuss. Until then, its 5 lbs of shit in a 4 lb bag.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)theaocp
(4,233 posts)Squinch
(50,916 posts)has to adhere to? One size fits all, eh?
Some people really never learn.
theaocp
(4,233 posts)I assume she can illustrate what that means. You disagree?
Squinch
(50,916 posts)try to define it for other constituencies.
Do you not get that?
theaocp
(4,233 posts)You like to argue what she means like you're a politician-whisperer. She can clarify it or let everything remain muddy. It's really up to her. Do you not get that?
Squinch
(50,916 posts)theaocp
(4,233 posts)... where IS my thesaurus? What's another word for stoopid? Maybe Squinch can help out somehow.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)theaocp
(4,233 posts)Coyness is so unbecoming. Maybe if you Squinch a little, you can make em out.
RandySF
(58,511 posts)Our Revolution has entered a joint effort with the Devos Family to take down Gretchen Whitmer in the Michigan Democratic primary to the benefit of the Ocasio-Cortez endorsed candidate, Abdul El Sayed.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And apart from that, are all primary challenges to be discouraged?
RandySF
(58,511 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And if so, what does this say?
RandySF
(58,511 posts)There are progressives who are more than happy to let the Republicans do their dirty work if it furthers their cause.
Chickensoup
(650 posts)different than yours on personal basis.
What kind of revolution ur planning???
RandySF
(58,511 posts)needs a Republican dark money group to attack a Democrat during a primary?
Your posts certainly say a lot. The DeVos are pure evil. There is absolutely nothing progressive about them.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Whitmer should tie her opponent to the DeVos family, that is enough to sicken any real democrat.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)DON'T tie back to their financiers?
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)long. Just what I thought, but not hard to figure out.
Maven
(10,533 posts)Look at when it joined, too. Timing!
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)How can someone get 24k post in 3 years?? I would have to do this for a job to have that many.
Maven
(10,533 posts)Ive been here for going on 15 years, and have less than half that many. And while not the most prolific poster, I post regularly.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)I would have to post on the internet for a living to have that many.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Feel free to answer it.
RandySF
(58,511 posts)But letting Republicans tear down a candidate so they can help your primary candidate is something else. Are you fine with that?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and the GOP decides to weigh in on the challenge, what should the challenger do?
RandySF
(58,511 posts)Why would you not know that?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)R B Garr
(16,950 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Then that person, by definition is supporting the GOP.
Spin it anyway you want. Those are the facts.
And that person has no place on DU. They have gone so far around the horseshoe they are actually what they claim to oppose.
kcr
(15,315 posts)Well, I answered it, didn't I? The DeVos family are evil and that clearly reveals an agenda. There's your answer. If you still support anyone teaming up with them, I have no problem pointing out the errors in that seriously flawed judgment.
Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)Republican held seats. Use the money to try as hard as we can for the Senate...primaries are basically meaningless if you have no power...we have the best damn platform in my lifetime...and it amounts to exactly nothing in terms of policy.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)wasting time and money on safe Democratic seats is madness.
uponit7771
(90,304 posts)Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)the house with these tactics.
kcr
(15,315 posts)It's lost its credibility and is now openly about punishing the Democratic party. Any warm body will do, and anyone that will help them in that aim is welcome. I think most of the candidates are sincere in the policies they support, like Occasio, even though some of her friends are sketchy, like Glen Greenwald. But that's the thing. They almost all have ties to anti-Democratic loudmouths.
Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)Our Revolution is colluding with DeVos?
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)So far recently, two of our best have shot themselves in the foot and will need to recover. So far Kamala Harris, Joe Kennedy III, Amy Klobuchar and Joe Biden have avoided that mistake.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)Speaking of shooting ones selves in the foot.
RandySF
(58,511 posts)Its that time of year.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)On the bright side, if they're gunning for Tammy, it means they think she's as strong a candidate as I do.
RandySF
(58,511 posts)And were just now hearing all this? Why so late?
Squinch
(50,916 posts)elleng
(130,740 posts)Never takes too long around here.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I think I understand what she meant to say. But still, it was better unsaid.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)who would argue against the meaning of her statement. We need every win we can get. Purity tests are for idiots.
I know YOU know this, but the need to be saying it to others is making me nuts.
mcar
(42,278 posts)Just saying.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But if Duckworth make a statement, she should expect some questioning about what exactly she means.
Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)Cortez is unlikely to win. We tailor the candidate to the district...50 state strategy which is the only way we have obtained power in the modern Party.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)She's an experienced politician. She should have immediately said to herself, "This reporter doesn't actually care about single-payer health care or environmental protection or any other policy issue. Those don't make exciting stories. This reporter is in 'Let's you and her fight' mode, because writing about an intra-party disagreement beats the hell of trying to understand economic inequality or the like. Well, I'm not going to fall for it and I'm not going to give them what they want."
The correct response was some anodyne blather about congratulating Ocasio-Cortez, endorsing her for November, and looking forward to her becoming part of the national conversation about how to make government work better for all of us. That way, Duckworth wouldn't have played into the "Democrats in disarray" theme and wouldn't have helped to provide a distraction from children in cages or tariffs destroying businesses or any of the other things we want in the news.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)is because trolls are making it a problem, and dopes are falling for the trollery.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)I'm not saying she should lie to the media. I'm just saying she should avoid answering a question when her honest answer will have harmful consequences.
If the answer is indeed self-evident, then there's all the less reason to give the answer. It's not as if she has access to some information that no one else has but that the public has a right to know.
You put the blame on trolls and dopes. If you know that there are trolls and dopes, and I know that there are trolls and dopes, then Tammy Duckworth knows it, too, probably better than either of us.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)of trolls are deciding to come after Duckworth and the usual suspects are joining in, whether in error or in gleeful assistant trollery, doesn't mean Duckworth should not have stated a self-evident truth.
And real people don't let trolls script their positions.
Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)the ideology that got Ms Cortez elected won't work in other areas... do you think she could be elected statewide in even New York or Massachusetts? I don't. If she was the Democratic nominee I would vote for her, of course but I think she would lose. And Tammy has a right to voice her opinion. Why is Ms. ..Cortez so important to some...don't get it. She has not even been elected. Given this district is blue, I am sure she will be. But Ms. Cortez might want to consider she has to run again in two years...and candidates will come out of the woodwork to primary her which they shouldn't as it will be a safe Democratic seat, but they will.
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)support labor when its obvious Duckworth was talking about the overall socialism theme that is a tough sell. The GOP loves these diversions, though.
Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)There was no reason not to...it is true that someone with Ms. Cortez ideology will not be elected in a red state or district. I fail to see the problem.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)And knows that most Midwest voters think the candidate from NY is a self identified socialist who she does not want to be associated with. I may not agree, but I am not running for office in the Midwest.
This is not complicated. Politics are local.
For the life of me I cannot understand why Democrats outside her state feel the need to criticize her.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)Socialist, that is great in Brooklyn but it will lose you votes in the Midwest.
She means what she says, which for any sane person is a self-evident fact.
Perhaps, though, it is not self evident to those who demand purity while at the same time defending De Vos financed challenges to strong Democratic candidates.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But Ocasio Cortez never suggested a one size strategy.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)in the Midwest.
It trashed her for stating that self-evident fact.
Then you posted it.
Then a handful of posters jumped in to trash her again.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)to disprove Duckworth's analysis. So there is also that.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)Their existence doesn't mean we should run a Democratic Socialist against Manchin. Their existence doesn't even mean we should run a centrist Democrat against Manchin. They wouldn't win.
Viability matters.
The existence of progressive Democrats in the midwest does not disprove Duckworth's analysis in any way.
Demsrule86
(68,469 posts)If you look at the voting patterns...including that ass whose name escapes me that holds the seat his Dad had in Illinois...running against a Nazi, a Democratic socialist won't get elected except in very specific districts not statewide either...Tammy runs statewide. I would also say Ms. Cortez would be unlikely to win a statewide election even in New York. I think our job is to win hearts and minds and move the party to the left gently. Tammy Duckworth is a great Senator...and she is correct in her assessment...hey I want to move left but I want to win this year and next and the year after that...and you can't move left when you elect Republicans...the electorate first swings back to the center sadly.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Or anywhere else in America for that matter.
Democratic Socialist. Works well in a few places. But very few.
Good for Duckworth. I am happy that Brooklyn has a candidate who reflects their values. But I understand there are not very many districts she would carry.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Squinch
(50,916 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Two plain speaking, hardnosed, hardworking people, just what Trump dreads.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)So, it would seem she agrees with Duckworth.
RandySF
(58,511 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)I don't really see Ocasio-Cortez saying anything that contradicts what she said about there being many ways to be a Democrat.
Cha
(296,857 posts)saying when asked by Jake Tapper.. and AOC came back at Tammy Duckworth with refighting the primaries.
There are all kinds of Dems across the Country Fighting to TAKE the HOUSE with what works in their District.. think Conor Lamb and incumbent Eliot Engel in NY District 16..
For Democrats Challenging Party Incumbents, Insurgency Has Its Limits
snip//
Nancy Pelosi, the minority leader of the House of Representatives, recently made an appearance with Mr. Engel in his district and praised him profusely. We couldnt be better served than by Eliot Engel, she said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/nyregion/congress-primaries-democrats-midterm-ny.html
"its the establishment wing of the Democratic Party that is having a good 2018. And, more important, its having a good year in the places that matter most this November."
"What about those other 19 primaries, where the establishment Democrat won? There are a lot more congressional battlegrounds in that group, 11 in total, including 5 true tossups."
snip// from your link..
But the stories this week about the surprising power of the left side of the party may have overstated the case a bit.
Going by the numbers, its the establishment wing of the Democratic Party that is having a good 2018. And, more important, its having a good year in the places that matter most this November.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/bernie-sanders-backed-nominees-score-wins-longshot-races-n888071
RSF https://upload.democraticunderground.com/100210822252#post3
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)She's ignoring the fact that undemocratic caucuses and certain demographics favored Sanders in the primary but wouldn't have done him any good come November.
That's a pretty big error on her part. One we saw many on DU make repeatedly.
Cha
(296,857 posts)spouting that at Senator Duckworth.. I'm sure Tammy Duckworth knows exactly how you explained it, Garrett..
Thank You!
Squinch
(50,916 posts)for her constituency. The quotes of OC really do come off as her insisting that Duckworth take OCs approach. We both know that's just stupid. So either the article is masterful trolley or OC needs to back off.
I like OC, and I really distrust these media-mediated spats between Democrats, but the article makes it look like she's gratuitously trashing Duckworth. This is exactly what We DON'T need right now.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)The only OC quote: "With respect to the senator, strong, clear advocacy for working class Americans isn't just for the Bronx."
Squinch
(50,916 posts)"Tammy Duckworth should hold town halls on Medicare for All, universal free college, wages, racism, housing as a right, respect for immigrants, LGBTQIA+ rights, and climate change. It's easy to discount an agenda on Sunday TV. It's harder to say it to thousands of faces."
That is in quotes, immediately following another quote from OC and not attributed, so the reasonable assumption is that it was OC's words.
As I say, this is a nasty hit piece gunning for Duckworth, so it is possible that quote is a piece of masterful trollery, but it looks like it is OCs words.
If it IS OC's words, I would love to ask her to describe a time when Duckworth DIDN'T stand up for the things she's listing there.
And Common Dreams has just made my side-eye list
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)It didn't come from OC.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)By, for instance, not "reading the whole article." 😉
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)for the people they represent. There's no conflict here, unless one is scraping from the underside of the bottom of the barrel. Both are good Democrats, and exactly the types of leaders we desperately need in this country.
Maven
(10,533 posts)Courtesy of everyones favorite far-left ratf*cking clearing-house Common Dreams.
Youre really on a roll today. And right on time for the midterms, too. Tell us, will you be posting one of their many articles about how Trump/Russia collusion is Russophobia and a failing narrative next?
Squinch
(50,916 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)If it makes it easier for you, please proceed.