In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant 'Ghettos'

[ehrnst]

Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments. Other Danish citizens are free to choose whether to enroll children in preschool up to the age of six.

Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they should be compelled.

For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population. Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where immigrants, some of them placed there by the government, live in dense concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.

Politicians’ description of the ghettos has become increasingly sinister. In his annual New Year’s speech, Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen warned that ghettos could “reach out their tentacles onto the streets” by spreading violence, and that because of ghettos, “cracks have appeared on the map of Denmark.” Politicians who once used the word “integration” now call frankly for “assimilation.”

.......................................................................

At this summer’s Folkemodet, an annual political gathering on the island of Bornholm, the justice minister, Soren Pape Poulsen, shrugged off the rights-based objection.

“Some will wail and say, ‘We’re not equal before the law in this country,’ and ‘Certain groups are punished harder,’ but that’s nonsense,” he said, adding that the increased penalties would affect only people who break the law.

To those claiming the measures single out Muslims, he said: “That’s nonsense and rubbish. To me this is about, no matter who lives in these areas and who they believe in, they have to profess to the values required to have a good life in Denmark.”

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html

[CozyMystery]

1. This shocked me.

All I can think is that it could happen here. A couple of years ago, I wouldn't have thought that.

[Demsrule86]

2. Shocking and Denmark is often touted as such a great place to live.

[CozyMystery]

3. Yup. Denmark is off my list of places to move to.

Not that there was a snowball's chance in hell of that happening.

[Demsrule86]

9. Mine too...Sweden is also very racist I have heard...and France has

ghettos outside of Paris for Muslims...so called Western nations engaging in this behavior is disturbing.

[GulfCoast66]

34. France does not have Ghettos for Muslims.

Muslims can live anywhere they want. That said, many Muslims do not care to integrate into French society and unlike the US, France does nothing to accommodate them. So many of them are poor and like here are forced by economics to live in dodgy areas.

That said, many Muslims are perfectly integrated in society and can be seen in professional roles.

[Demsrule86]

45. Muslims live in ghettos and face discrimination in France.

They are poor because they can't get decent jobs because of discrimination...they face discrimination in education and in work as well. And that is why they live in ghettos. Also, becoming a citizen is a difficult task. Thus, they are not allowed to assimilate in many case.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4399748.stm

[GulfCoast66]

55. Do not disagree with your points

But assimilation is a two way street. To assimilate in France you have to give up way more of your original culture than in the US. They are radically secular and want no signs of religion in public life. No workplace is going to allow religious clothing or things like making allocation for prayers. But they have sound historical reasons for that going back to the Revolution.

Many Muslims have been able to find employment and are doing well. Many have not.

I agree France is way harder to assimilate to than the US for a variety of reasons including a good deal of racism. But I would assert we are way more racist than the French and do assimilate much better. But we have years of practice.

Nice discussion.

[Demsrule86]

143. I don't think we are 'more' racist with Europe ...in fact my idea that Europe and

Scandinavia was progressive has been dealt a serious blow as I read about it. They are not.

[GulfCoast66]

151. Economic progressiveness

Has nothing to do with race. Here in the south progressives like Huey Long were awful. Which is why so many southern liberals eschew the term.

[Demsrule86]

156. It seems to me that I am right in believing that without social justice economic progressiveness

will not work.

[GulfCoast66]

159. It can work for some.

Southern progressives purposely did not want Social Security, minimums wage and other depression era programs to help blacks. Farm workers and domestic help were left out. Hell, that was 78% of blacks. By the time African Americans got SS whites already had a nice retirement. And it is why welfare programs faced resistance. Southern Progressives would not support a program that did not pay blacks less. Since that could not happen it was only in the 60s that they were approved.

You should read up in the progressive movement between 1900-1960. It may make you rethink calling yourself a progressive. Just Woodrow Wilson alone poisons the term for me. Early progressive that re-segregated the federal government.

[JustAnotherGen]

176. Just stepping in to thank you

For your posts on this thread. It explains a lot of resistance by black Americans all over (including myself) who resist that word.

[GulfCoast66]

177. Why thank you. How nice.

I am a white Southern male in my 50s and my dad was a liberal from a small town in Louisiana. He had me read about Huey Long at an early age.

Although now we have a name for it, I understood I was privileged from then on.

Proud liberal here. Social Democrat if liberal is not good enough. Never call me progressive.

[cannabis_flower]

104. Sweden also has very repressive drug laws.

https://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/drug-policy-sweden-repressive-approach-increases-harm

[Demsrule86]

144. Shocking...and to think all the liberals like me who think Sweden is

so progressive.

[zanana1]

181. It's a world-wide problem.

More countries are becoming intolerant of immigration. I wonder where and when it started.

[ehrnst]

5. If you are at home in a small, overwhelmingly white population

and aren't really directly affected by most social justice issues, then it's a utopia.

For anyone else, like the majority of people in the US, not so much.

Clearly, universal health care and a social safety net clearly doesn't guarantee that those pesky "identity politics" will be "made right."

[Demsrule86]

7. Imagine forcing Muslim kids to celebrate Easter and Christmas.

We need to fight with everything we have to make sure this doesn't happen here.

[ehrnst]

10. But we're told that once economic issues are solved, that the other issues will

"right themselves."

Clearly that's not the case. We have to elect leaders who believe that social justice issues cannot take a back seat to attempting to make the white working class happy with their economic outlook.

Clearly that doesn't guarantee social justice.

[Demsrule86]

13. Isn't that the truth...and clearly it is completely wrong.

[brer cat]

20. +1

Thanks for this thread, ehrnst. It's an eye opener for me about Denmark.

[Blue_true]

22. Surprising to me too. Denmark used to be the most tolerant country in the world. nt

[uponit7771]

4. The right taking advantage of Bush's shit show in Iraq

[ehrnst]

6. The right is given a very eager ear among the comfortable white population there.

Economically secure homegenous populations tend to see "others" as a threat, and are happy to have their fears validated. The socially progressive politician quoted in the article who was fighting these policies was elected by those who are the target of these laws, not the beneficiaries of the economic benefits.

Perhaps they "don't understand" that economic issues are really the "universal issues."

The Danish Model was built on a small, white population. Any change in that foundation is a threat to the model.

[JI7]

8. not really, this has been an issue in some euro countries for years

[Demsrule86]

11. These are Democratic Socialist in Denmark right? Just goes to show that economics does not

end bigotry.

[uponit7771]

31. +1, will be great example of it

[Demsrule86]

12. These countries that think this is the solution are to blame. It won't work.

[malaise]

14. You nailed it

Sad

[lunasun]

15. 25 hours a week at age 1 mandatory for the baby be away from home ?

Wasn't this country rallied by a candidate that would like the United States to model itself after Denmark? A dream for the US?
Well at least they handling the war on Christmas over there!

[George II]

18. Unfortunately some candidates concern themselves more with economics than human rights.

[NurseJackie]

19. I hate candidates like that! Hate em...

... Loathe em. Despise em.

[dalton99a]

23. No kidding

[Demsrule86]

56. This is a horrible...a one years old baby taken from their parents by force. This is

what it is.

[treestar]

178. and why wasn't age 5, or whenever you start school

soon enough? Most kids are completely assimilated to a society by school. They will speak Danish like a native and thus have access to the society's customs, cultures, as they go through life. What between 1-5 will they get in that would increase the desire to be Danish? Maybe there are early childhood experts who can explain.

[Demsrule86]

180. It is about punishing the parents...poor immigrant...whom they don't like.

[Amishman]

16. Language education is iffy but I can see it, the rest is crazy

Mixed feelings on language
I an fine with mandatory teaching of history and laws
The rest is too much

[lostnfound]

26. Equality of the genders

Stopping the practice of FGM or forced marriage is worthwhile and a matter of basic human rights

[ehrnst]

28. That is a matter of law, and human rights. Forcing someone to observe Christmas

not so much.

The idea that the "Danish Values" and national identity include race and religion is nationalism at its worst.

A social safety net doesn't fix that.

[lostnfound]

30. Agreed. I was merely stating two additional concepts that I think WOULD be defensible

The state insisting that citizens allow the teaching of a core set of principles to its youth ranges justifiably from restrictions on hate speech to teaching children about the holocauat particularly in Germany.

To become citizens in the U.S. there’s a test of knowledge about U.S. government.

Obviously these rules in Denmark cross into bigotry and echo some very ugly behavior in the 1930s.

[AlexSFCA]

40. it's not

first of all refugees have not yet become danish citizens so of course they are not treated the same. Once they become citizens none of the above will apply to them. Denmark is not a melting pot like USA, it was never meant to be. I fully sympathize with this tiny little country that is fighting to preserve its highly civilized culture. The are supporting migrants providing all basic needs including housing, first class healthcare, world class free education and money for discretionary expenses. Do not forget that Denmark Lutheran Church is the official state church enshrined into the constitution, again do not compare this tiny little country to USA and its totally different constitution. Christmas and Easter are state holidays and everyone obseves them, does not mean they are religious necessarily, it is a national tradition. I celebrate Christmas, doesn’t mean I am christian (I am an atheist by birth). Danish is the official language and the government has a stake at preserving it.
Natural assimilation has failed and practically led to brexit and all other problems. What Denmark is doing is progressive and other countries, including Germany, are trying to adopt this model. Previous status quo had absolutely horrific impact on Europe and failed miserably and only intensified racial/cultural tensions. This is a very complex problem with no simple solution and saying things like ‘they shouldn't be treated like second class citizens’ makes no sense when they are not even citizens.

[Demsrule86]

52. Natural assimilation has failed because of racism...where jobs are not to be had in Europe and the

UK as well...this law is wrong and puts a stain on Denmark.

[AlexSFCA]

57. and how do you eradicate racism, as if it was so simple

although I think it has more to do with xenophobia/cultural differences rather than strictly racism as white eastern europeans in EU countries also faced discrimination. We have to give a chance to forced assimilation because they need it to become danish citizens.

[Demsrule86]

64. You don't have racist policies that prevent assimilation and then blame the victims of such

policies and then concoct new laws where babies are literally ripped from their Mother's arms at one years old. For shame Denmark.

[Demsrule86]

75. Punishing the victims of racism doesn't seen like a good idea...horrible in fact.

[ehrnst]

101. "We have to give a chance to forced assimilation because they need it to become danish citizens."

Requiring Muslim parents to send their children to learn that Christmas and Easter are part of "danish citizenry" is a good thing?

One would assume that learning the language and the laws of Denmark would be taught to adults who are immigrating would be provided and they would be happy to do so.

Do you feel that "forced assimilation" via 25 hours a week of separating them from their children, in order to teach the children that Christianity is a "value" of a Danish citizen is a good way to go about this? Can you explain how this is not bigotry?

Would you approve of this in the US?

Does the term "ethnic purity" ring a bell?

[AlexSFCA]

110. they don't teach christianity, they teach language and history

and no I would not approve of it in the US, we are not christian nation with state church unlike denmark where lutheran church is a state church enshrined into the constitution. Not to mention we are a nation of immigrants unlike Denmark. Learning about christmas and easter is not the same as converting them into a different religion.

[ehrnst]

112. You think Christmas and Easter are not Christianity?

Did you read the article by any chance?

And you seem to dismiss Muslim majority countries as being "less" than Denmark...

[Demsrule86]

108. So second generation immigrants are not yet citizens? There is something wrong with

this picture.

[Mariana]

132. What is a second generation immigrant?

If the second generation was born there, they aren't immigrants, by definition.

The US has a Constitutional provision within the 14th Amendment that states that all persons born in the US are US citizens. Many other countries have no such provision.

[Demsrule86]

145. They are still defined as immigrants and subject to this law...it is in the article.

[ehrnst]

111. "I fully sympathize with this tiny little country that is fighting to preserve its highly civilized

culture."

From Muslim immigrants?

OMFG.

[Demsrule86]

147. I find this quote sickening...

[George II]

17. Scandinavian countries for the most part have an undercurrent of "racism"....

...they're all essentially all-white, mostly indigenous populations (~95%)

[virgogal]

21. That makes no sense.

If Scandinavia can be considered having an undercurrent of racism just because it is essentially all white,what does that say about Japan or Kenya?

Are they also racist just because of their demographics?

[ehrnst]

27. No, not because of demographics, but policies and attitudes

There is a reason that they remain overwhemingly homegeneous - race and religion is part of Danish nationalism.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/world/europe/denmark-migrants-refugees-racism.html

One reason that social safety nets are more accepted in racially/religiously homogeneous countries is that people are more willing to extend the idea of "society" to their own "tribe."

And yes, Japan has a history of racial nationalism as well.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2018/06/03/commentary/japan-commentary/face-reality-racism-japan/

Is that clearer?

[uponit7771]

32. But what about the African countries like Kenya? This can't be just a white thing

[ehrnst]

100. Do you have examples of racist policies on the part of the Kenyan government?

It's a policy thing, not a "white thing" - Japan is non-white, and has racist policies.

[JI7]

114. Look at treatment of Somali refugees in kenya

[GulfCoast66]

35. The Japanese can be very racist

Many see them selves as superior to other cultures and races. Americans included

[virgogal]

36. That was meant to be my point---there are racists that are NOT white.

[GulfCoast66]

38. Sorry. Went over my head.

I am sipping beer one the patio in Florida. Kind of slows me down!

[Demsrule86]

60. I would argue that there are infinitely more White racists.

And countries who are discriminatory in Africa have been taught this by colonialism...the paler you are the more worth you have it seems. Racism is just plain wrong even if you economic policy is Democratic socialism.

[treestar]

24. I wonder they can't just trust human nature

about assimilation; it will occur naturally. They don't need to attempt to speed it up. It just creates unneeded backlash.

[SoCalNative]

58. But it doesn't

Having lived in a European country for 3 years, I have seen it first hand. Many immigrants and cultures do not care to assimilate and only wish to continue their way of life in their new country.

I see it firsthand even in the California city that I live in now. Rather than become part of the fabric of the city they have basically taken over and insist on their way.

[AlexSFCA]

63. bingo

My perspective - you dont have to assimilate and can do whatever you want unless you are depended on government payments that would naturally come with a set of rules. Because there is a state interest in assimilation. The migrants in Denmark get more governemnt benefits than most anywhere else so it is only natural that it comes with a set of conditions that serve state interests. In Denmark, migrants are free to live as they wish as long as they can support themselves.

[Demsrule86]

65. I completely disagree with every word you wrote.

[ehrnst]

98. So you think that requiring Muslim children to be taught Christmas and Easter are

"Denmark values" is fine?

Would you also posit that it is "only natural" that Muslim refugees be required to send their children to be taught that the US is a "Christian nation" in order to get any support until they got employment?

I assume that you are also in favor of the work requirements that this administration is imposing as a condition to keep Medicaid and food assistance?

[Arazi]

133. This amounts to 5 hours per day in daycare for 5 days

At govt expense...not too many Americans would object to that.

That said, before I think this is at all ok I'd like to see the curriculum. Even innocuous items (children will be taught Christmas songs) can be spun as dastardly (children will be forced to celebrate Christmas11!!1!!!)

This could be good, could be bad

[treestar]

78. That is always claimed

But the younger generations will assimilate. There were Italian and polish and Irish neighborhoods and there are chinatowns too. But the younger people always venture out of those eventually.

[SoCalNative]

83. Not this particular group

trust me. It's the younger generation that continues to push their culture to appropriate things here in the name of their people and places.

[treestar]

84. That was said about Italians and

Irish immigrants too. This group is different. It never is.

[SoCalNative]

97. Well, I've lived it with the past 2 or 3 generations here

it's only getting worse with the newer generation. Whatever they said about the Irish and the Italians and they fact that they perhaps eventually assimilated, though I would argue that having a "town" for every ethnicity does not encourage no demonstrate assimilation.

[treestar]

161. I don't believe any third generation person

would not speak English and not act like an American. The definition of "assimilation" does not mean that ethnic groups don't still hang around with each other.

[SoCalNative]

163. I never said they didn't speak English

they just refuse to speak in anything but their own language most of the time. And this group doesn't seem to care about assimilation.

[treestar]

164. If they speak English, they must use it enough to speak it well

I have known many second-generation immigrants, they speak English and they are American. If they speak Spanish amongst themselves or at home, who cares? They are still Americans. Second-generation means they were born here. Even if not, if they came young enough, they are assimilated, like those under DACA.

[SoCalNative]

165. I'm not referring to Spanish

and it's not just at home and "amongst themselves"

[treestar]

166. In public in a store or the like

is not a problem either; no matter what the language. Kids who go to school in the US from a young age assimilate very easily.

[SoCalNative]

167. Maybe in your area they do

but the ones in my city have not. I know what I've experienced and continue to experience on a daily basis with this culture.

[treestar]

170. How do you know they are second or third generation?

And in So Cal it is not believable. Public schools are taught in English, the government runs in English, what town there is not? And what language are you alleging other than Spanish is taking over?

[SoCalNative]

172. Because I have grown up around a lot of them

the big numbers started coming to my city when I was in elementary school and by high school had become a significant population.

I never said the language was "taking over", they are, and just that a good deal of their businesses cater to their people first as well as whenever they are out in public they never seem to converse in English. And yes, it IS an issue for me. And it is Armenian, not Spanish. The Armenian population in my city is the largest anywhere in the world outside of Armenia.

[treestar]

173. It doesn't sound much different than Chinatowns

So Cal, like NY, by this time probably has everywhere-towns. A local business can be in whatever language it wants. The kids still have to go to school. How is this a problem for you? There are plenty of English speaking people in So. Calif., along with many other languages.

[SoCalNative]

175. Chinatown is Chinatown

one specific area. Not the whole city.

[treestar]

179. These Armenians manage to have a whole city?

It can't be that big. And in Southern Cal., there is another city on the very border.

[SoCalNative]

182. Yes, they've taken over the city

and continue to expanded into neighboring ones.

[LanternWaste]

168. Can you provide any objective evidence at all...

...that the demographics you've been referring to absolutely refuse any acculturation?

Or is your entire argument predicated only on what you've seen and your personal interpretations of those sights?

[SoCalNative]

169. It's based on the reality

that I have lived and continue to live. I don't care if you believe me or not. I know what I have experienced since living here all of my life (save for the 3 years I was abroad).

[ehrnst]

115. In what way have immigrants "taken over" your CA city, and "insist on their own way?"

[SoCalNative]

125. All but one of our city council members

are now of their culture. A small contingent of the younger generation recently got the city council to agree to rename part of a city street for a disputed territory from their home country, even as a majority of their group was against this. City schools now take a particular day in April as a school holiday, and businesses throughout the city close in "remembrance" while the city is inundated with cars speeding about with flags of their home country displayed for a month during this time.

I could go on.

[Demsrule86]

148. And this threatens you how...have you ever seen the St. Patricks Day Parade in New York?

[SoCalNative]

149. It's a little bit different

than just a parade full of drunks once a year

[Demsrule86]

157. That is not true...there is always trouble...fighting and all.

[lostnfound]

25. Is it chilly in here?

Life has taken such disturbing turns in all directions.

[uponit7771]

33. This is the wrong attitude to solution should never be more bigotry

[GulfCoast66]

37. I can be very bigoted about some things

Such as treating women as second class citizens, forced marriges, honor killings, violence against people who are not heterosexual. Oh, and setting off bombs in the name of some silly god.

All of these have and are happening in Denmark and other European countries.

I am not defending their new program, but they do have a problem and it needs a solution. The status quo is not acceptable. Many of the immigrants to Europe would not have been allowed here even under the most liberal president including Obama because we do have pretty strict immigration laws. Despite who our racist president tell us. And we have the Atlantic Ocean.

I have no answers but I am do not live there.

[uponit7771]

39. Should have said racial bigotry. They can have solutions without making the situation worse...

... by implementing racial bigotry, that's the easy way out.

I have no answers but I am do not live there.

I do, use what's worked in the past without racial bigotry ... there's nothing new under the sun.

[Demsrule86]

61. The solution is not acceptable

Honestly this sound right wing to me. This is Trump's message as well. I disapprove.

[radius777]

128. Agree, I'm like Bill Maher on these issues.

Obviously, since whites have controlled the world for the past 500 years, their abuses have more impact upon classes/races lower in the global racial hierarchy.. thus are a greater threat to the world as a whole... why the left/liberals focus on white hegemony so much.

However, I oppose religious fundamentalism and human rights abuses of any and all kinds, whether such retrograde values come from whites or non-whites.

The concepts of liberty and justice can only work if enforced to some extent, ie by an activist government that steps in, eg how movement liberalism worked during the civil rights era to use the power of the federal gov't (SCOTUS, the presidency etc) to bulldoze Jim Crow and segregation, to guarantee a woman's right to choose, etc.

That said, populism is nationalism, which is fundamentally itself illiberal and undemocratic. There's no such thing as 'democratic socialism' or 'democratic fascism'... as we see with many countries in Europe that don't just want immigrants to assimilate, but to conform to a strict national identity.

Mixed capitalism with a strong safety net as championed by Democrats is the best system, with a cosmopolitan and open mindset, that welcomes economic growth, trade and international relations... and that protects and guarantees fundamental human rights even if that means stepping on some toes.

[GulfCoast66]

131. You and I see eye to eye.

Only the Poles, Czechs etc would argue about which white people caused all the problems in the world😉

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. It's not just migrants - it's anyone in the designated "ghettos". Including 2nd generation

Danes who grew up there. And, I would guess, some poor white people who happen to live in the same poor neighbourhood. 25 hours a week is a long time for a 1 year old to be away from their family, and it's the kind of thing people should choose in they think it's OK, rather than it being forced on them.

Plus this punishes the poor more for breaking the law. It is, simply, discriminatory. It's not "about kids first and foremost", and you know it. You claim that anyone living in these "ghettos" has a "third world mindset". That is what it's about - people who look down on others, saying because they're poor they're worse parents that those doing the judging.

See, for instance, the boarding schools that Canada and Australia forced native children to go to, separating them from their families. That is what you are praising.

[AlexSFCA]

42. just to be clear

parents in the US go back to work soon after birth, children spend way more than 25 hrs a week in (expensive) daycare, not free like in Denmark. Certainly true in my case, there is no way a family can afford not to work and sustain a family in current times.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. You get to choose that. You don't have benefits withdrawn if you want to spend more time

with your children (and those Danes not in ghettos also get to choose). You don't face increased penalties for breaking the law if you live in the wrong neighbourhood. You don't have people telling you you're a bad parent because of where you were born.

[AlexSFCA]

44. we dont get any benefits to lose

All I am saying is where is the perspective of those parents? Anyone asked them? They may actually like and appreciate the program. And again what is your solution to the migrant crisis. Just contrast those 25 hours in free daycare/pre-school vs. kidnapping and potentially indefinately separating kids from migrant parents in the US and then deporting parents back to war ridden countries. I am not even mentioning toddler cages and drugging kids against their will. Plus engage in child trafficking and essentially selling infant/toddlers to the highest bidders. I bet they could only dream about the program that Denmark offers: free housing, free world class healthcare, free world class education, free high quality daycare and pre-school, free food and money for discretionary spending. And yes, those come with a set of rules as it should. And what are the rules? All they need to do is to follow the host country traditions. Denmark government is providing the tools to eventually get out of the ‘ghettos’ by offering education.

[Demsrule86]

48. If the parents were behind it...there would be no coercion in the law which there is...

This is a terrible policy. And no country that does it can be considered free. It seems that Europe is not what people thought it was.

[muriel_volestrangler]

51. yes, they've asked them. They're interviewed in the article.

And as you've already been told, this is up to the parents if they come from comfortable neighbourhoods, but compulsory for the "ghettos".

What they're not asked, in the interview, is if they appreciate non-Danes telling them they have a third world attitude and they don't know what's good for their children.

Do you really think it's "education" when they're 1 year old? It's not a "tradition"; it's an option for the Danes who don't live in the designated "ghettos".

[Demsrule86]

66. So...the laws are even applied in a discriminatory manner. If you have a comfortable life,

then you choose, but those 'filthy ghetto dwellers' (sarcasm) well they must be treated like slaves...no choice...that is just plain wrong on all levels. This is similar to what was done to Native Americans here and it was wrong then too...how long before they are sent to live away from their parents...and how many generations does this go on...shocked at and disappointed in Denmark.

[ehrnst]

109. You are comparing your children being taken from recent immigrants for 25 hours a week for

Christian indoctrination as "free daycare?"

"Denmark government is providing the tools to eventually get out of the ‘ghettos’ by offering education."

I don't think that you read the article....

[Demsrule86]

54. The law is bad...despite the attempts to justify it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

59. If they'd made it the same for the whole country, I could accept it was meant in good faith

so to speak. But doing it just to certain areas stinks of discrimination and coercion.

[Demsrule86]

67. Yes it does ...you are correct. Of course the entire country would rise up if it applied to all, but

it is the old story...first they came for the Jews, but I did not speak up as I was not a Jew...etc etc etc.

[Demsrule86]

50. I didn't got back to work...and stayed home with my kids...this law impinges on personal

freedom...never feel the same about Denmark again.

[suffragette]

62. Completely agreee. Denmark also has a history of ripping Inuit children from parents.

Very similar to what Canada, United States and Australia did.

Looks like that terrible cycle is being repeated in somewhat new ways now, in Denmark with this policy and in the United States, with the separation of immigrant children from their parents.

Here’s a good article about this from the BBC. Worth reading in full.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33060450

In the 1950s, a group of Inuit children were taken from their families in Greenland to be re-educated as model Danish citizens. More than 60 years later, they want the Danish government to apologise for an experiment that did enormous damage.
~~~
Denmark had resolved to improve living conditions in its Arctic colony. Many people still made a living by hunting seal, only a small percentage spoke Danish, and tuberculosis was widespread.
The best way to modernise the island was to create a new type of Greenlander, the Danish authorities decided, so they sent out telegrams to priests and headteachers asking them to identify intelligent children between the ages of six and 10. The plan - formed with the help of the charity Save the Children Denmark - was to send them to foster families in Denmark so they could be re-educated as "little Danes".
Many parents were reluctant to give up their children but eventually 21 families gave in.

[Demsrule86]

46. You consider that a solution?

[AlexSFCA]

47. it is better than what has failed before

give it a try or propose something you think is better.

[Demsrule86]

49. Let them live their faith as they choose...and accept them.

Last edited Sun Jul 8, 2018, 04:16 PM - Edit history (1)

[AlexSFCA]

53. that didnt work, they've tried it before

folks, dont be so hung up on religion, it’s not a dna permanent feature. they can practice their own religion while still observing denmark’s tradtions, there is no conflict here. Jewish and muslim folks in the US also get chrismar holiday and enjoy time off with their families.

[Demsrule86]

68. Well, it is a terrible policy ...discrimination at its worst and is applied in a discriminatory

matter...it is in fact disgraceful. Hitler devised his 'final solution' because nothing else had 'worked'. We have been down this dark road before. It never ends well. What happens when this doesn't work? And I don't think it will.

[Demsrule86]

69. I would also add that that discrimination plays a role in non-assimilation . Thus the answer is not

Last edited Sun Jul 8, 2018, 06:21 PM - Edit history (1)

to create additional racist policies to address the failure of some to assimilate because of said racist policies in housing and jobs... enforced by the government basically at the point of a sword.

[AlexSFCA]

77. then what is the answer

Seems everyone keeps repeating texbook phrases of what’s right and wrong. But no solutions to this conplex problem. In Denmark, kids from early age are tought tolerance ans specifically family types including same sex families. What are the chances that their muslim parents at home would be teaching that homosexuality is as normal as hetero and same sex couples are no dfferent from other couples? Western liberal democracies have secular culture with christian traditions and it is a good thing to reject right at the start some of the fundamentals of islamic faith that is unaccepting to same sex relationships. Let alone have parents teach that bigorty to kids, the future of Denmark. Not all religions are the same, secularism is key; no one can practice discrimination against gays in Denmark and its teachibgs regardless of religion.

[Demsrule86]

113. Make everyone obey the laws...period. And accept that some wont believe in Santa Claus and

they don't have to. Perhaps, they have something to offer Denmark. America is the better for the culture brought by immigrants. Stop all discrimination in jobs and housing...make them feel welcome. Accept them. And don't be ethnocentric as a nation. You assume your culture is superior, and you can't learn from other cultures. This sort of thinking and the behavior it leads to will not promote assimilation.

[ehrnst]

124. So are white Danish children taught that "homosexuality is as normal as hetero and same sex couples?

https://www.thelocal.dk/20150512/denmark-lags-behind-lgbt-gay-rights

[treestar]

162. It is wrong to tell anyone what to teach the children

If they teach homophobia out of an Islamic feeling, the child will still grow up and see the difference in the society around them. That would not be the case back in the home country. The US has people teaching their children right now to be racist and homophobic. We have to rely on the fact those kids will grow up to see the wider society of the USA does not accept that.

[ehrnst]

106. Are Jewish and Muslim children here required to be taught that Christianity is a "US value?"

Are you advocating that it should be?

[MicaelS]

71. And since their faith includes the opression..

Of women, executing gays, chopping off the hands of thiefs, that perfectly OK, right?

[ehrnst]

127. So does Christianity.

You are parroting the talking points of the current administration defending bans of Muslims.

[George II]

134. Taking the Bible literally, Christian faiths include plucking out eyes, teeth, and....

.....advocate the death penalty.

[GulfCoast66]

72. Unacceptable They can believe whatever they want. No argument.

But it’s actions that are the problem. Whole areas where women are denied rights, forced marriges, FGM etc. These are not right wing talking points as you asserted in response to an earlier post I made. They are happening. If you have a belief system where women can only interact with related men, then perhaps Denmark is not the country for you. Want to force your daughter to marry someone you choose...stay out of Denmark. And on and on.

I am continually amazed that I can(and do) rail against the horrors of evangelical Christians and receive no push back on DU. The minute I hold Islam, a religion arguably worse, to the same standard I am called a bigot or am accused of pushing right wing talking points. In Denmark an openly gay person can work and go anywhere they want to safely. Well, not quite.

[Demsrule86]

74. I do not believe in this law...outlaw forced marriages and discrimination at the state level.

Had these folks been welcomed with jobs and fair housing...this would not be needed perhaps...so to fight what is in my opinion a failure to assimilate because of rampant discrimination, new discriminatory policies that takes away parental rights are enacted but only in the poor neighborhoods...it is a disgrace. I fail to see how any freedom loving person could support this.

Should we as Americans force the Hassid to give us their kids? They have forced marriages and discriminate against women. Also, so do Indians, I know for a fact that an Indian friend of mine fled her parents in an attempt to avoid a forced marriage. How about evangelical Christians who " discipline" their wives. I have seen this in Georgia.

This is a terrible law. You don't create discriminatory laws and than enforce them in a discriminatory manner. You create opportunity for all and in time most assimilate...but those who don't should be allowed to live as they choose within the law...no forced marriages or honor killings.

[GulfCoast66]

87. As you know, I am not arguing in support of this particular law

But something must be done.

And do you truly believe that had they been offered all the things you suggest, and which I do not disagree, they would have just given up all the trappings of their religion that define them. I do not believe it.

And let me make clear...this is not all Muslim immigrants. Many have assimilated and are doing well. But they either came from Muslim areas that did not practice these midevil actions such as Turkey or they were willing to give them up. When in France the business district of Paris is as diverse as New York.

Nothing wrong with a nation telling potential immigrants what are acceptable standards and then enforcing them. Because of our very stringent immigration laws and more importantly the Atlantic Ocean, we are not facing the problems of Europe. Most immigrants from the old world are more educated and sophisticated than the average American including our Muslims immigrants. Who make our nation stronger.

My argument is we cannot pretend Europe does not have a problem. A problem we do not have.

[Demsrule86]

116. That is what Hitler said basically, 'something' anything must be done'. It is just not true.

I don't say you are like Hitler by the way. But this sort idea that we have the right to impose our beliefs on immigrants violates everything in our constitution. And the idea that your society is culturally superior in all ways or your 'pure' blood has lead to terrible atrocities. We do not have that right. We have the right to make them adhere to our laws. But we have no right to tell them how to think or what to believe...and we have freedom of religion in this country at least for now.

[GulfCoast66]

126. I have said several times we should never impose ideas on anyone

You keep focusing on beliefs. I could give s shit about beliefs. I am focusing on actions. I have already listed many of the actions that some believer of Islam want to practice. Let me turn the table on this argument. Should they be allowed to enforce those practices on their women in Denmark? Or any western nation?

If your religion teaches that women can only talk to or relate to makes in her family then you really have no place in Denmark because in Denmark they do not discriminate in the way they treat genders. Not to mention even more horrible practices like FGM, forced marriges and honor killings. You stated that laws prevent that. But only if caught. Nothing wrong with telling people up front that if you insist on following these customs look elsewhere.

The irony is that there are millions of Muslims who have integrated because they share a humane understanding of how women should be treated.

[George II]

138. Generally when countries allow immigrants into their country, it's on the provision....

....that the immigrants observe all the laws of that country.

I don't know of any Muslims that have come to the United States and have conducted honor killings and other heinous "beliefs". I'm sure one can find examples of that somewhere over the years, but those are probably less pervasive than native-born Americans (not meaning Native Americans) shooting up restaurants, night clubs, or classrooms.

[GulfCoast66]

140. Agreed. But the thread is about Europe

We have had no more of a problem integrating Muslim immigrants than any other immigrant. Mainly due to our stringent immigration requirements and the Atlantic Ocean. They have been a boon for the US.

The situation in Europe is totally different. They have real problems.

[Demsrule86]

150. Maybe because religious discrimination is allowed in Europe.

[Demsrule86]

139. We have laws in this country that all must abide by...including immigrants. special laws are not

needed and infringe on rights. You post is disturbing. There are Jewish (Hasidic), Christian, Mormon religions who believe similar things and do not approve of equality for women...not just Muslims. I think you believe it is OK to endorse bigotry for the greater good to prevent the evil of discrimination against women which I believe is evil and needs to be stamped out, but not this way.

I have no idea why you think this law will be effective or is the right thing to do. It is so clear to me that the law is wrong on all levels. What will you do round up every person who endorses discrimination or is it just Muslims? This law endorses bigotry against one religion from what I can see. I don't see one convincing argument in your post that paints a different picture. The Germans said that Jews were a threat to society and didn't embrace German values...is what you are saying that much different? They accused Jews of all sorts of atrocities...and you paint all Muslims with a broad brush...not all believe in the honor killing or forced marriages. I don't like Islam particularly or Evangelical Christianity for that matter because of their view on equality for women, but I would die for their right to practice their religion as they see fit as long as no American laws are violated. It is called freedom.

[GulfCoast66]

141. Are you not even reading my posts?

I have never voiced support for this law. Just stated that they have a problem.

And I have also stated this is not an issue in this country for various reasons. We are talking specifically about Denmark and Europe in general.

And you are correct that lots of religions in this country teach that women are inferior starting with Christians. But if they take action in those beliefs we put them in jail like the Mormon sickos who were having sex with under aged girls because their religion says it is okie dokie. And we regularly read stories about Christians jailed for abusing and sometimes killing their kids that come out as gay. We(the government) pretty much shut down that whole Mormon town. We took drastic action to stop it and I assume you support that action. In Denmark’s mind they have a similar situation with some neighborhoods. Maybe they do, maybe not. But if so then drastic action is called for.

But I think this law will do more harm than good. As I have stated several times, I do not have a solution.

[Demsrule86]

152. I appreciate that...and I understand what you are saying...just don't agree.

I don't support such action against Mormons in general. I believe you are referring to a sex abuse scandal where children were married off to Mormon elders...obviously that breaks the law and those involved should be arrested. But people should be able to l live as they choose.

[GulfCoast66]

142. Oh, and thank you for the discussion.

I think were we talking face to face we could reach agreement or at least consensus. It is not easy typing.

Thank you for not turning this into a series of insults as so often happens. Something I am often guilty of.

[MicaelS]

91. Islam is the new darling of many on the Left.

No matter how opressive the behaviour that many of it's adherents engage it, it is anathema to criticize them, or their religion.

Seems like many can't live without being a champion of someone they believe is oppressed. If one does not exist, they will create one.

Bashing Christianity and Christians is perfectly fine with people since the creation of Marxism. Not to mention the self-hatred that many on the Left have for the West and their own Western Cultures in specific.

[treestar]

174. That does not have to be the case.

One can believe Muslims should not be discriminated against or demonized while at the same time requiring them to follow the laws of Western countries if they migrate there. We are assuming they cannot have polygamous marriages like they might be allowed back in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. That they will have to live with. But they can still speak Arabic and attend mosques. They will learn English because they want to get ahead, which is no different from any other immigrants past or present.

[ehrnst]

117. "Islam, a religion arguably worse"

Ok, now you are parroting Trump administration talking points.

[GulfCoast66]

129. Ih give it up.

I am agnostic so could give a shit about any of them and can go on about the horrors commuted by all religions. But I am not blind to the real world and what takes place.

It is not a liberal quality to give bad behavior a pass or to act like what we all see is not happening.

[uponit7771]

82. Again nothing's new Under the Sun proposed what has worked before

[ehrnst]

120. Tell us what "failed" before. What is your definition of "failure?"

[Demsrule86]

70. I am a liberal ...born a liberal and will die a liberal. No country that has policies such as this

can consider themselves free...and those who condone this because they are not affected...well it never ends with just one group. Your day will come sadly.

[RelativelyJones]

73. There is nothing wrong with placing expectations on immigrants who are seeking a new start

in a new culture. That includes learning the language and becoming familiar with the culture's values and traditions. I do not understand the argument that this is an unreasonable imposition.

[uponit7771]

76. because it's overly obvious that bigotry is the driver of the expectations not assimilation

One would have to make the argument that there was never any immigration rules for Denmark before these group of people which is ridiculous on his face so something work before they came.

the second issue is human behavior science that it takes two to three generations before assimilation there's really any a simulation from x culture to y in the first generation so not only is bigotry driving the expectation so is there prejudice of having to have higher expectations than humanly usual

[Demsrule86]

80. That is exactly correct. +1000

[Demsrule86]

81. And there is an inherent disdain for the rights of the immigrant which I find appalling...and some

are second generation and treated like this? This is so wrong.

[uponit7771]

86. +1

[Demsrule86]

93. Thank you, did you ever think to see the day when progressive/liberals would defend such a policy?

It appears that there are threats on the left as well as the right that endanger freedom for all...and have to say I am completely shocked by this.

[uponit7771]

95. I seen it before when the Russians for hitting this site in 2016

the DDOS in prescripted attacks here we're not very fancy but they were thorough and shut down this place for a second given the information I have now I have no doubt that this was a state thing and not just some 400-pound guy in his mother's basement

the thing we have to do is make sure that we have replies to these guys instead of leaving them alone the lurkers have to know that this s*** is un acceptable and the state actors have to know that we're on to their asses.

These responses in this thread are trying specious positions to get people to normalize bigotry... They usually go by a stain scripted arguments to to me none of that is by accident especially when there are low post or low traffic on d u


What the series ....Occupied... you'll see that the US is welll behind the curve of the EU

they knew of these guys and how they acted before we did ... It's hair raising

[RelativelyJones]

99. Nice. Expressing disagreement is "unacceptable" and gets one labeled a Russian troll.

[Demsrule86]

121. The idea that a state has the right to force people to learn about Christianity as some sort of

moral imperative to assimilation is wrong...and it is not a progressive value. The idea that children as young as one years old are ripped from their parents arms and sent to schools that teach state values is wrong...and not something progressives should support...the idea that immigrants have less rights than citizens in terms of freedom of religion is not progressive either.

[uponit7771]

135. No, just ignoring the science of these issues

[Demsrule86]

118. I have to agree. The words I see here with few exceptions are not what I would expect on a

progressive Democratic website. Some sound down right Trumpian in fact. We have engaged in some of these practices with Native American children and it was a disaster.

[uponit7771]

136. +1, I proffered that notion in this thread a couple of times and got no response. LPC, LHC, ignore

... science and Trump like positions = somethings up.

[Demsrule86]

158. These are very Trumpian positions.

[RelativelyJones]

85. No, it is not over obvious that bigotry is the driver.

If the scale of immigration is happening at such a rate in a short amount of time that "ghettos" are forming then the policy is a reasonable way to speed up assimilation.

[Demsrule86]

89. You can't speed up assimilation and it won't happen at the point of a gun. I can well imagine

how those kids will be treated...will their be cages for the babies?

[uponit7771]

90. Then they should not have accepted that amount of immigration in the first place...

... a huge amount of willful ignorance is involved in that statement if that is the true sentiment of the from Denmark

they understand social science, human behavior science, and science. There's much data on immigration there's much data on habits of not indigenous cultures

again there is nothing new Under the Sun

Danish pols are acting willfully ignorant or they're too ignorant in the first place to allow mass migration. Neither one of those are good when it comes to accepting different cultures colors religions Etc

The Danish usually don't accept the culture of Flat Earth Society

[muriel_volestrangler]

96. Yeah, it is obvious. It's not just recent immigrants.

The Naassan sisters wondered aloud why they were subject to these new measures. The children of Lebanese refugees, they speak Danish without an accent and converse with their children in Danish; their children, they complain, speak so little Arabic that they can barely communicate with their grandparents. Years ago, growing up in Jutland, in Denmark’s west, they rarely encountered any anti-Muslim feeling, said Sara, 32.

“Maybe this is what they always thought, and now it’s out in the open,” she said. “Danish politics is just about Muslims now. They want us to get more assimilated or get out. I don’t know when they will be satisfied with us.”

Rokhaia, her due date fast approaching, flared with anger at the mandatory preschool program approved by the government last month: Already, she said, her daughter was being taught so much about Christmas in kindergarten that she came home begging for presents from Santa Claus.
...
Barwaqo Jama Hussein, 18, a Somali refugee, noted that many immigrant families, including her own, had been settled in “ghetto” neighborhoods by the government. She moved to Denmark when she was 5 and has lived in the Tingbjerg ghetto area since she was 13. She said the politicians’ description of “parallel societies” simply did not fit her, or Tingbjerg.

[Demsrule86]

107. Horrible.. I am saddened for those subject to such persecution and it is persecution

make no mistake.

[Demsrule86]

153. Ghettos are forming because of discrimination. And you can't force assimilation...my

friends italian Mom's and Dad's never learned English. Locking people up in ghettos prevents assimilation which as science points out occurs in the second or third generation.

[treestar]

171. How can it be sped up?

Once people learn the language, they can assimilate.

Immigrants to the US would still continue to cook their foods, even open restaurants for others to share that, they might maintain cultural things like music and dancing, and those affect the culture already there, and that is hardly a problem.

I would not expect Muslims to stop being Muslims because they immigrated to a Western country. They cannot have anything our law contraindicates, such as plural marriage, or FGM if that applies. Nothing says they can continue such practices and their assimilation involves obeying our laws. If they don't, they can be prosecuted.

[Demsrule86]

79. This policy is horrible and wrong...and yes there is something wrong with doing this...

I can't believe I see such a post on a progressive site. We are multicultural; many of our values and traditions come from immigrants who were not forced to abandon their culture.

[RelativelyJones]

92. Abandon their culture? Since when is expecting people to learn the local language and values

so they can more quickly get established forcing them to "abandon their culture"?

[ehrnst]

94. What part of Christmas and Easter being required to be taught as "Denmark Values"

is respecting a Muslim immigrants' culture?

Did you read the article at the link?

[RelativelyJones]

102. I did read the article, as well as the comments.

Learning the importance of Christmas and Easter to Danish culture is not forced conversion as you imply. Most of the commenters understand that whereas you do not.

[Demsrule86]

105. It is a religious holiday... so it most certainly does imply religious conversion.

[ehrnst]

122. Perhaps you missed this part:

Politicians’ description of the ghettos has become increasingly sinister. In his annual New Year’s speech, Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen warned that ghettos could “reach out their tentacles onto the streets” by spreading violence, and that because of ghettos, “cracks have appeared on the map of Denmark.” Politicians who once used the word “integration” now call frankly for “assimilation.”

It sounds as though you seem to agree with that assessment, whereas most here on DU do not.

[Demsrule86]

103. Yes...that is abandoning their culture at the point of a gun...and when this doesn't work and it

won't then what? Re-educations camps, concentration camps...take the kids away a put them in orphanages...where does this go?

[Demsrule86]

154. First of all not everyone is good at learning languages...but their kids will learn.

[ehrnst]

119. Read the article.

It's not just new immigrants.

[Demsrule86]

88. Thanks for posting this...here we have a economically liberal society embarking on

state sponsored discrimination. I am quite shocked. K&R

[Demsrule86]

123. Making immigrants into subhumans...what comes next is never good.

"Politicians’ description of the ghettos has become increasingly sinister. In his annual New Year’s speech, Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen warned that ghettos could “reach out their tentacles onto the streets” by spreading violence, and that because of ghettos, “cracks have appeared on the map of Denmark.” Politicians who once used the word “integration” now call frankly for “assimilation.”

[JI7]

130. I think there can and should be education for people

Especially things like informing women they have protections and places they can if they are dealing with abuse.

[cabot]

137. Denmark does have an official state church

Maybe that's why kids are being taught about Easter and Christmas. I don't know...not saying it is right, but this is a prime example of why secular countries are necessary.

[Demsrule86]

155. It isn't right and we don't have an official state church here either.

[ehrnst]

160. So does England, and they don't do this to immigrant children. (nt)

[Gothmog]

146. K&R