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If Dump pulls us out of NATO tomorrow, (Original Post) Eko Jul 2018 OP
Can the President do that alone? nt Quixote1818 Jul 2018 #1
The constitution is silent on who has power to pull out of a treaty. Eko Jul 2018 #3
Doesn't the senate have leftynyc Jul 2018 #33
The constitution is silent on that. Eko Jul 2018 #35
I agree!!! greytdemocrat Jul 2018 #42
Would the Republican congress deny him Bettie Jul 2018 #4
I don't think he can pull the US out of NATO vlyons Jul 2018 #2
That is what I was thinking. If he does all hell will break loose. nt Quixote1818 Jul 2018 #6
According to the articles of NATO you can. Eko Jul 2018 #7
Here is an article I just came across that gives me hope Quixote1818 Jul 2018 #8
Dump is an outlier. Eko Jul 2018 #9
It's possible if Putin is telling him to and Putin has something on him Quixote1818 Jul 2018 #15
I dont know. Eko Jul 2018 #16
Like I said, he does what he is not supposed to. Eko Jul 2018 #18
The US no longer remains the hegemonic state, the military gets gutted by 60% as no need for them. TheBlackAdder Jul 2018 #5
Giving Putin multiple orgasims. Elwood P Dowd Jul 2018 #13
What does your post mean? Are you being sarcastic? Sophia4 Jul 2018 #28
EU expressed NATO would continue without US. If US isn't in Europe, we lose span of control. TheBlackAdder Jul 2018 #43
NATO would become a EU military apparatus if we leave. roamer65 Jul 2018 #10
I think they will fall apart. Eko Jul 2018 #12
They will all fall in line behind the Franco-German core of the EU. roamer65 Jul 2018 #17
They'll be an alliance with no military force... regnaD kciN Jul 2018 #23
Do not sell all the nations short. GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #24
The UK and parts of Germany, Scandinavia and Holland are pretty Protestant. Sophia4 Jul 2018 #30
as a commander in chief, he sure can do it w/o congress AlexSFCA Jul 2018 #11
Even if the SC rules against him. Eko Jul 2018 #14
Post removed Post removed Jul 2018 #19
That is a ruse. roamer65 Jul 2018 #20
No, its ours also. You are not staying here long. Mirt? Eko Jul 2018 #21
It's our defense. NATO prevents wars among its members. Sophia4 Jul 2018 #26
How can he blame this on Obama? superpatriotman Jul 2018 #22
NATO prevents wars among member countries. Sophia4 Jul 2018 #25
Would him doing this finally open people's eyes to Ilsa Jul 2018 #27
He can't do that Lee-Lee Jul 2018 #29
And the Senate would have to deratify it. roamer65 Jul 2018 #32
Show me in the Constitution or in law where he cant do that. Eko Jul 2018 #37
K&R smirkymonkey Jul 2018 #31
It will never ever happen wonkwest Jul 2018 #34
Well, since you said so. Eko Jul 2018 #36
I'd put money on it and give you odds wonkwest Jul 2018 #38
You said it. Eko Jul 2018 #39
Let's put it this way: He would finally lose Republicans wonkwest Jul 2018 #41
Goldwater v. Carter dalton99a Jul 2018 #40

Eko

(7,245 posts)
3. The constitution is silent on who has power to pull out of a treaty.
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 09:33 PM
Jul 2018

And there is one thing Dump likes to do is assume power not given to him.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
33. Doesn't the senate have
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 11:56 PM
Jul 2018

to ratify any treaty? Wouldn't it follow the would also have to ratify pulling out?

Bettie

(16,071 posts)
4. Would the Republican congress deny him
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 09:34 PM
Jul 2018

anything? If it requires congressional approval, he'll have it in a day, what with McConnell and Ryan.

vlyons

(10,252 posts)
2. I don't think he can pull the US out of NATO
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 09:33 PM
Jul 2018

Isn't there a NATO treaty? It is afterall called the North Atlantic TREATY Organization. A treaty that the US Senate affirmed, and was signed in Washington, D.C. on 4 April 1949.

Eko

(7,245 posts)
7. According to the articles of NATO you can.
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 09:36 PM
Jul 2018

Article 13
Any party may quit NATO one year after depositing its notice of denunciation.

Eko

(7,245 posts)
9. Dump is an outlier.
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 09:49 PM
Jul 2018

He does things that no one thinks could be done and no one thinks should be done.

Quixote1818

(28,918 posts)
15. It's possible if Putin is telling him to and Putin has something on him
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 09:58 PM
Jul 2018

But even Trump at least pretended to fold on separating babies from the parents. Too much pressure and he sometimes does back down and there are a lot of Republicans who would defend NATO.

Eko

(7,245 posts)
16. I dont know.
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 10:03 PM
Jul 2018

I really don't have much hope for reasonable republicans at this point, and this has been a conservative wet dream for a long time. I will be so glad to be proven wrong, so glad.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
28. What does your post mean? Are you being sarcastic?
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 11:16 PM
Jul 2018

If NATO folds, our military costs skyrocket. I'm old enough at 75 to know that for a fact.

TheBlackAdder

(28,167 posts)
43. EU expressed NATO would continue without US. If US isn't in Europe, we lose span of control.
Wed Jul 11, 2018, 01:33 AM
Jul 2018

.

The more countries we self-exile from, the less strength the US has, the less ports of call.

The military will be pulled from the region or regions, and will have nowhere to go.

.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
10. NATO would become a EU military apparatus if we leave.
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 09:51 PM
Jul 2018

Their budgets will go up and it would be the first step toward unified EU forces.

The Holy Roman Empire is about to be reborn.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
17. They will all fall in line behind the Franco-German core of the EU.
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 10:08 PM
Jul 2018

The EU is basically a Franco-German alliance.

The removal of the US from NATO will strengthen that core.

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
24. Do not sell all the nations short.
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 10:56 PM
Jul 2018

Several of them have formidable militaries and some like the French are excellent. Russia is losing men in Ukraine as welll.

And France and the U.K. are Nuclear powers.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
30. The UK and parts of Germany, Scandinavia and Holland are pretty Protestant.
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 11:17 PM
Jul 2018

It's helpful to read history.

AlexSFCA

(6,137 posts)
11. as a commander in chief, he sure can do it w/o congress
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 09:52 PM
Jul 2018

if there are any questions/litigations, SC will make it clear. We are talking about putin’s #1 geopolitical goal - weaken nato.

Response to Eko (Original post)

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
20. That is a ruse.
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 10:24 PM
Jul 2018

He wants the dissolution of NATO, which would be to the benefit of his Russian handlers.

Eko

(7,245 posts)
21. No, its ours also. You are not staying here long. Mirt?
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 10:26 PM
Jul 2018

Trump is so stupid,,,,how stupid you ask? He is so stupid he thinks NATO need to pay us back. NATO does not pay us to defend them, and the agreement is for countries to pay 2% of gdp on defense by 2024.
Mirt?

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
26. It's our defense. NATO prevents wars among its members.
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 11:12 PM
Jul 2018

In case you are totally ignorant about history, read about WWI and WWII and the Franco-Prussian War and all the wars that have bloodied Europe for centuries.

NATO's existence brought openness and trust among nations that had been enemies for centuries.

NATO saves us money because as long as NATO is strong, we don't have to fight wars in Europe -- the most costly and dangerous wars we have every participated in.

I hate to insult people, but honestly, I've lived in Europe, and I will tell you that without NATO, we would be involved in so much conflict in various parts of Europe.

NATO involves joint military exercises. It builds trust among nations while insuring their sovereignty and national existence.

I feel very, very, very strongly that NATO is a good thing -- and mostly because of the fact that it has prevented wars, prevented misunderstandings from escalating into wars among NATO members.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
25. NATO prevents wars among member countries.
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 11:07 PM
Jul 2018

It promotes openness and peace.

If Trump leaves NATO, he is responsible for the deaths and wars that follow -- and they will.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
29. He can't do that
Tue Jul 10, 2018, 11:17 PM
Jul 2018

The US entered NATO with a treaty ratified by the Senate. The President cannot unilaterally void a ratified treaty.

On top of that any member state that wishes to withdraw must give a years notice.

Eko

(7,245 posts)
37. Show me in the Constitution or in law where he cant do that.
Wed Jul 11, 2018, 12:17 AM
Jul 2018

Last edited Wed Jul 11, 2018, 01:13 AM - Edit history (1)

As I said, I would love to be wrong.

 

wonkwest

(463 posts)
34. It will never ever happen
Wed Jul 11, 2018, 12:07 AM
Jul 2018

Instead of jumping at ghosts, let's charge at things that can happen.

What Trump can and might actually do is terrifying enough.

 

wonkwest

(463 posts)
38. I'd put money on it and give you odds
Wed Jul 11, 2018, 12:20 AM
Jul 2018

It's seriously never ever - ever - going to happen. It would upend the entire world order in unimaginable ways.

Trump's a narcissistic, incompetent, idiotic asshole partial and probably indebted to Russia.

He's not an actual Bond villain.

Eko

(7,245 posts)
39. You said it.
Wed Jul 11, 2018, 12:36 AM
Jul 2018

"Trump's a narcissistic, incompetent, idiotic asshole partial and probably indebted to Russia. "
"It would upend the entire world order in unimaginable ways. "
Sorry to flip your words around, although it doesn't change the validity of either statements when I do, it does change the perspective a bit though.

 

wonkwest

(463 posts)
41. Let's put it this way: He would finally lose Republicans
Wed Jul 11, 2018, 12:55 AM
Jul 2018

Not the voters who go along with him at all times.

The actual Republicans in power would bail immediately. He's an idiot, but I'm sure - even if it was an inkling in his tiny mind to pull out - that he knows he'd lose all support. And once Republicans in power vanish, then comes the impeachment and the indictments. They would crucify him.

We always ask, "What would it take?!" I'm pretty sure trying to unilaterally pull out of NATO would qualify. NATO is a source of our military power and standing. Say what you will about Republicans, but military power is kind of one of their boner pills.

dalton99a

(81,392 posts)
40. Goldwater v. Carter
Wed Jul 11, 2018, 12:44 AM
Jul 2018
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldwater_v._Carter

Goldwater v. Carter, 444 U.S. 996 (1979),[1] was a United States Supreme Court case which was the result of a lawsuit filed by Senator Barry Goldwater and other members of the United States Congress challenging the right of President Jimmy Carter to unilaterally nullify the Sino-American Mutual Defense Treaty, which the United States had signed with the Republic of China, so that relations could instead be established with the People's Republic of China. Goldwater and his co-filers claimed that the President required Senate approval to take such an action, under Article II, Section II of the U.S. Constitution, and that, by not doing so, President Carter had acted beyond the powers of his office.

Granting a petition for certiorari but without hearing oral arguments, the court vacated a court of appeals ruling and remanded the case to a federal district court with directions to dismiss the complaint. A majority of six Justices ruled that the case should be dismissed without hearing an oral argument. Justices Lewis Powell and William Rehnquist issued two separate concurring opinions on the case. Rehnquist claimed that the issue concerned how foreign affairs were conducted between Congress and the President, and was essentially political, not judicial; therefore, it was not eligible to be heard by the court. Powell, while agreeing that the case did not merit judicial review, believed that the issue itself, the powers of the President to break treaties without congressional approval, would have been arguable had Congress issued a formal opposition through a resolution to the termination of the treaty. (The Senate had drafted such a resolution, but not voted upon it.[2]) This would have turned the case into a constitutional debate between the executive powers granted to the President and the legislative powers granted to Congress. As the case stood, however, it was simply a dispute among unsettled, competing political forces within the legislative and executive branches of government, and hence still political in nature due to the lack of majority or supermajority vote in the Senate speaking officially as a constitutional institution. Today, the case is considered a textbook example of the political question doctrine in U.S. constitutional law.

While dismissing the case of Goldwater v. Carter, the Supreme Court left the question of the constitutionality of the President Carter's action open. Powell and Rehnquist merely questioned the judicial merit of the case itself; they did not explicitly approve Carter's action.[7] Moreover, Powell even stated that this could be a valid constitutional issue.[2] Article II, Section II of the Constitution merely states that the President cannot make treaties without a Senate majority two-thirds vote. As it stands now, there is no official ruling on whether the President has the power to break a treaty without the approval of Congress.

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