Can we please, please stop refering to it as "Russian Meddling"?

[louis c]

Last edited Mon Jul 16, 2018, 10:22 AM - Edit history (2)

Fucking "Meddling". That's what a Mother or Father does when they stick their nose into their Son's or Daughter's marriage.

What the Russians did in 2016 was a fucking act of war. They conspired with treasonous American citizens in the Trump campaign to change the outcome of the election of a US President. Conspiracy and Treason (really, a violation of the espionage act, but I'm using the word Treason in the vernacular).

Using the word "meddling" in this instance is like saying that the 9/11 hijackers bumped into a couple of buildings in 2001 or that the Japanese held a fly over at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941.

So, please, can reasonable journalists and Democratic politicians stop playing into the Fox News and Trump apologists' hands and refer to this horrible episode in American history as a "Russian Conspiracy", rather than "meddling"?

[Turbineguy]

1. It's the biggest Russian intel op ever.

And the GOP are worried that it will fail.

I wonder how many republicans are quietly working in the background to save it while Nunes, Gowdy, McConnell and a few others are out in public.

It must have a Russian code name.

[green917]

33. The Republicans in Congress are doing what they've always done:

Protecting themselves (or attempting to do so). We now know (which means that Robert Mueller has known for at least 6 months) that Alexander Torshin (a close Putin ally) funneled millions of dollars to Republicans in Congress through the NRA. And who was the deputy finance chair for the Republican party (read as: bag man) at the time? Why, none other than Michael Cohen. The dots in all of this are becoming easier to connect and it's leading to one salient fact: several members of the trump administration (campaign) and several members of Congress actively aided a foriegn adversary in an act of war against the United States. That is treason as defined by the constitution of the United states and I think that is precisely where all of this is headed. They can hold as many dog and pony shows as they want but Mueller has the goods (this latest round of indictments is evidence of that given the breadth and depth of the information they have on the GRU operation to sway the election and it's simply a matter of time before all of this information becomes completely undeniable and a reckoning will have to happen. The next 6 months are going to be very enlightening.

[sandensea]

34. Including outright vote flipping - thanks to the GOP's fondness for electronic voting.

While developed countires (the few that tried it) have almost all dropped electronic voting, you see it proliferating in many semi-democratic regimes in the third world - especially those with right-wing presidents who're not too sure they want to relinquish power.

And in our 2016 election, all anyone would have had to do is flip 40,000 votes in three states.

How do you say easy peasy in Russian!

[spanone]

2. Agreed louis c

K&R...

[kentuck]

3. We don't have to look very closely to see the damage done...

...from the Russian cyber attack.

Most likely assisted by some traitorous Americans?

[Initech]

4. Damn right it was an act of war!!!!

And all those who helped enable this act of war are traitors and are absolutely complicit in this.

[RKP5637]

5. It's a war. So tired of MSM and rest pussy-footing around it. It's a F'en war. There are all

types of wars. Bullets don't need to be flying around for it to be a war. Espionage is a dangerous war, often covert.

[Hoyt]

6. Can we stop calling it an "Act of War' too? We don't need to retaliate. We need to bolster our cyber

defenses, election systems, imprison the American traitors, etc., and not allow it to happen again.

But, truthfully, Russia did what we let them do, and we have done the same thing to other countries. I don't really care about what the Russians did, I do care about locking up every GOPer, or other person, that assisted in this or allowed it to happen.

[louis c]

9. We can call it "an act of war" and retaliate in kind

We don't need to send troops, but just as Mueller has proven to have cracked the codes in the Russian military communications, or the result of the "Panama Papers", we can expose Russians to their on population and to the world.

I believe in a proportional response. But if you don't think that cyber activity can be an "act of war", you should rethink that position. In the modern world today, a great deal of fighting will be in cyber space.

[Hoyt]

10. We probably did it first, they retaliated against us and we weren't prepared. Lock up American

traitors and build up defenses.

"This is hardly the first time a country has tried to influence the outcome of another country's election. The U.S. has done it, too, by one expert's count, more than 80 times worldwide between 1946 and 2000."

https://www.npr.org/2016/12/22/506625913/database-tracks-history-of-u-s-meddling-in-foreign-elections


Ruskies got us big, no question. Heck, they even hacked the unprepared DNC. But, we've been doing this junk for a long time.

Lock up any American who helped them directly, or even indirectly, and make sure it doesn't happen again is the best course.

[louis c]

12. It doesn't matter who did it first, it's still an act of war

If a country uses cyber espionage to take down a power grid, deactivate nuclear codes or shut down air traffic control towers, those are acts of war.

The same can be said for hacking into out elections.

[Hoyt]

16. Yeah, let's just make things worse because we are mad that we let trump get elected.

Retaliation can also be beefing up one's defenses and preparing for other countries to try the same.

We don't need a war with Russia, whether cyber counter-attacks, bombs, hatred, saber-rattling, etc. We need to protect ourselves on this one, and maybe learn a lesson from our history of screwing with other nation's election. The bully is going to bet blind-sided.

[louis c]

18. I respectfully disagree. I beleive in peace, but not appeasment (NT)

[flibbitygiblets]

21. +1 Just because "we did it too" doesn't mean we should just ignore that it's happening

It doesn't mean we should let the one who benefitted from this act off the hook. It doesn't mean we should just throw our hands up in the air and say "well everyone does it", so nothing to see here. DJT and his election campaign ACTIVELY PARTICIPATED in a foreign country rigging our elections.

I do believe that's a fucking crime, and that fact seems to be ignored.

It also seems to be ignored that Rump only enforces sanctions against Russia, ousts their diplomats, etc. when he has no other choice. He's enabling it to continue. Nothing has been done to stop it from happening again, and those in power in the US are cool with that as long as they stay in power.

[Hoyt]

22. It ain't appeasement if you have been doing this to them, sorry. Next time they try, they ought

to get a big message from the DNC, state election agencies, facebood, etc., that say, "Your attempt at screwing with our politics has been blocked, and you have been infected with a virus . . . . . ."



Edit -- I do need to add that I just saw how trump is kissing Putin's rear and saying that Russia is not a bad actor, etc. I'd have to agree that is no way to approach this.

[louis c]

35. I know you are an active member here

and I have great respect for the number and quality of your posts, but you are using Trump's talking points.

[Hoyt]

36. Believe me, it ain't intentional. I believe trump belongs in jail, that's the retaliation I support.

The best retaliation against Russia, or any other country that tries this junk, blocking any cyber attempts, outing them for lies and distortion or even pretending to be Democrats as happened right here on DU, prosecuting all Americans who made this possible, figuring out how to communicate with the stupid white wingers who believed the junk and even know say that they are OK with the Russian intervention since it put trump in office, voting in mass for Democrats at all levels of government, etc.

Sanctioning Russia or the next country that tries this, isn't going to help. Doing the same to them -- by interring in their elections, is even worse.

[louis c]

37. Trump used your words today in Helsinki

"both sides are to blame".

You could have written Trump's speech for him, intentionally or not.

[Hoyt]

39. What he didn't say, Louis C, was that trump is the culprit we should be focused on. Griping about

Last edited Mon Jul 16, 2018, 04:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Griping about Russia only helps trump. trump could have stopped this, and should have.

[louis c]

40. Still, he used your words. (NT)

[Hoyt]

41. My words would have been, trump is the crook we can prosecute.

[louis c]

42. But, the false equivalency are from both of you

Please re-read your original reply (No. 10).

Everything after that is just equivocation (No. 22).

Sorry, but even Kellyanne couldn't have put Putin and Trump's argument better.

[Hoyt]

43. OK, write your Congresspeople and declare war on Russia. I'm focused on removing trump.

He and his American supporters are the problem.

[louis c]

44. No you're not.

There is a case to make that Trump committed Treason, which will help Democrats in the 2018 election and probably lead to a censure vote in Congress. However, to excuse Russia for conspiring with the Trump campaign because America may have done similar things in the past, plays into Trump's hands.

Please don't fool yourself, you are giving the same argument as Putin and Trump on the subject and that doesn't help getting Trump out of office at all.

[Hoyt]

45. I don't "excuse" trump, but there is nothing we can do about Russia. trump on the otherhand

is an American traitor and can be removed from office and possibly imprisoned.

But, you keep on rallying the call that it's Russia's fault and, I'm for trump because I don't give a darn about Russia in all this.

I also suggest you stop reading posts by pointing at -- and mouthing -- each word. I think you'd get more out of it if you read in chucks of info and in context.

[louis c]

46. Please don't change my words

Russia is an enemy and Trump conspired with them to undermine our Democracy.

For Trump to be a Traitor he had to conspire in an act of war against this country.

Please stop using Trump's talking points.

[Hoyt]

47. Beat the war drums, I don't care. trump is who I'm worried about. Enjoyed bantering with you.

[louis c]

48. There are no war drums, except in your head

This is all about Trump and you are trying to excuse him.

I know you hate Trump. So did a lot of voters who wrote in a name in the GE.

But they fell for the Trump spin and the Russian trolls, and we got stuck with Trump.

[RoBear]

7. Thank you!

Excellent observations.

I'm further astounded that the GOPLiars assume no responsibility with this...

[NRaleighLiberal]

8. Thank you. It seems impossible for many to call it what it really is.

[bdamomma]

11. K&R

and tRump manages to still poke the eyes out of democracy and meets with Putin. He's a fucking treasonous bastard and so are the other congress members who stay silent on this.

[dumbcat]

13. An Act of War

From 18 U.S. Code § 2331 - Definitions:

(4) the term “act of war” means any act occurring in the course of—
(A) declared war;
(B) armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared, between two or more nations; or
(C) armed conflict between military forces of any origin;

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2331

Do you have a more authoritative source for the legal definition of "an Act of War" than the US Code?

Asking for a friend.

[louis c]

14. The Constitution is a living document and, obviously, the U.S. codes need to be updated

For example, do you think if a foreign, adversarial nation uses cyber espionage to shut down our power grid, to knock satellites out of orbit, disrupt our communications, shut down our air traffic control centers, deactivate our nuclear codes or hack into secret communications of our government shouldn't be considered acts of war?

They wouldn't be under this code, but you can bet your ass our government would consider any one of these an act of war, whatever the code says.

[dumbcat]

15. OK

The US Code needs to be updated to meet your expectations.

Got it!

[louis c]

17. Even without an update, any one of these actions would certainly be considered an act of war

You don't think for a minute that if a foreign government deactivated our launch codes for nuclear weapons, our response would be, "well, there's nothing we can do because there's not an armed conflict?"

Come on, let's use our common sense.

[flibbitygiblets]

23. Yikes, you just made my "block" list. CONGRATS!!!

[dumbcat]

25. Thank you!

I appreciate it.

[louis c]

38. I would never block you...

...but your name is certainly appropriate.

[Botany]

19. What the Russians did in 2016 was a fucking act of war.

+1,000,000 Even Dick Cheney agrees with that.

Cheney: Russian election interference could be ‘act of war’

http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/325928-cheney-russian-election-interference-could-be-act-of-war

[dalton99a]

29. Absolutely

[pandr32]

20. This has been driving me nuts as well

Your analogies are good ones.

[SCVDem]

24. Dump just said

That both sides are responsible.

We're back to the Charlottesville defense of good people on both sides.

Fuck him!

[dchill]

27. Both sides. GRU and the Trump Campaign.

Yeppers.

[Horizens]

26. Conspiracy

It is a Conspiracy to Corrupt the American election process.

[dchill]

28. No problemo, says the GOP.

[mulsh]

30. agreed also never call it "Russiagate" it's time to retire the "-gate"suffix

Every time I hear "Russian meddling" of ""Russiagate" I think the speaker is trying to soft pedal this horrible attack on our country.
That the greatest user of "Russiagate" is Joy Read, who is doing outstanding work covering the myriad investigative journalists digging up evidence saddens me a bit.

It was and is Russia's attack on our country.

[Xipe Totec]

31. Putin: And when you're a blood thirsty dictator, they let you do it.

You can do anything.

Grab their president by the pussy.

[Nevernose]

32. Russian meddling? Attacks? War? Literally doesn't bother me

I don’t blame the Russians in the least. It’s nonviolent, it’s effective, and the CIA has gone to far worse extremes in my lifetime, some very recently. If we could do the same thing to a Russian president, we would, and the people who did it would rightfully get medals.

No, what bothers me is the Americans involved. Trump, primarily, but all of his enablers: relatives, business associates, RW media. All of those people deserve very long prison terms, and many should never see the light of day again.

What I saw today? Disgraceful. More than simply disgraceful, it was a disgraceful bit of theater put on primarily for fascists here and abroad. George Soros! Hillary’s missing emails! Russia did nothing wrong! Assorted other lies!

Truly horrifying.