General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDemocrats Cut Way Back on Caucus States
A quiet but significant shift across a handful of states could reshape the Democratic nominating process ahead of 2020: The party is now poised to see a historic reduction in the number of states that use caucuses over primaries to pick a presidential nominee.
By next year, Democrats could see the number of caucus states cut in half.
Four states have already moved from a caucus system to a traditional primary: Maine, Minnesota, Colorado, and, as of last month, Idaho made the switch. Party officials say two more states Nebraska and Washington are now considering the same change. And as Democratic Party members prepare to adopt changes to the nominating process at their annual summer meeting next month including a new rule to encourage the use of primaries over caucuses whenever possible caucus states may face new outside pressure to embrace state-run primaries.
The shift could leave just seven caucus states on the nominating calendar. For more than 20 years, Democrats have held caucuses in no fewer than 14 states.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/rubycramer/caucuses-primaries-democrats-unity-commission
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)DavidDvorkin
(19,473 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Sanders would have had a much tougher time justifying his staying in the race.
DavidDvorkin
(19,473 posts)And maybe as a result we'd be hearing less from him and his supporters now.
Well, it's a nice dream, anyway.
RandySF
(58,693 posts)Bernie won a fair number of primaries. He would have used a different strategy.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)And 1 of those 7 was Michigan, where he won by 1.4% (it's quite possible he only won MI because of cross-over voting). The other 6 were OK, WI, IN, WV, OR and MT.
With higher turnout (and, thus, greater diversity), Sanders was not suited for primaries regardless of strategy.
LiberalFighter
(50,830 posts)Iowa and Nevada both need to get rid of caucuses.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Traditions are hard to break, but neither IA nor NH are remotely representative of the Democratic electorate. Yet they carry a lot of weight by being first.
Awsi Dooger
(14,565 posts)Obama's handlers understood the caucus process and delegate aspect light years beyond Hillary's bonehead decision to prioritize the Par 5 states.
Any Democrat cruises in 2008.
Then we follow with charismatic unblemished Obama in the more difficult environment of 2016.
Trump never happens
Nate Silver happened because he grasped 2008 the caucus delegate realities as "Poblano" far beyond anyone else.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)If the caucuses had not been reality, they could very well have come up with a strategy to compete in the primaries that HRC's folks would be moot since they planned to sew up the nomination early that year.
peggysue2
(10,826 posts)Thanks for the update!
samnsara
(17,615 posts)...im a bit confused as to why a primary is preferred. Other than last time when a few young kids green to the process and tried to bully their voices into being heard over the others, the caucuses are really kind of fun and interesting. Its not simply, robotically, marking an X on a piece of paper and putting in the mailbox (we are all mail in) .there is discussion and conversation and actual thinking going on. Its pretty interesting.
RandySF
(58,693 posts)But a poorly run caucus can be a shit show.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Caucuses are disenfranchising.
RandySF
(58,693 posts)A caucus site can be rigged by finding a small room and getting certain supporters there early.
Wounded Bear
(58,624 posts)Caucuses don't make a lot of sense in heavy population areas. Not enough floor space to fit them in and be inclusive, and too easy for a vocal minority to overwhelm the process.
I'm not real happy with how several things are done in our state, and caucuses are high on the list of things I'd like to change.
brush
(53,759 posts)stay at home moms and others who don't have the time to spend the hours it takes to participate in a caucus.
I've done both and prefer a primary as you can schedule your time to go and vote before work, during lunch or after work.
You spend 15-20 minutes at a primary as opposed to hours at a caucus.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)UtahLib
(3,179 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)And make them closed primaries too.
Sid
msongs
(67,381 posts)LiberalFighter
(50,830 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Caucuses have no place in our party. They are inherently unfair to the poor and marginalized. And since minoritys are more marginalized that white Americans it unfairly impacts their ability to choose our candidates.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)ambitions of Putin, Koch types, extremists and hostiles of all types of course. Shrinks one weakness, anyway. What was it, 3% or 6%? of state voters who participate in these on average?
Gothmog
(145,047 posts)Texas had to give up the caucus portion of the Texas Two Step in 2016
JaneQPublic
(7,113 posts)...I've been totally against caucuses.
What a dog & pony show!
People bartering and dealing with voters to get them to come stand with a different candidate's group.
It was like some really lame parlor game.
AND it went on for HOURS!
Seriously, it does disenfranchise anyone who has an evening job, or can't afford a sitter for an entire evening, or has to study for class the next day, and on and on.
People shouldn't have to go through that to vote.
RandySF
(58,693 posts)The way candidate supporters talked to each other.
question everything
(47,460 posts)As you've observed, supporters of each candidate congregate in different parts of the room thus your neighbors, your boss, your family member know who you are rooting for.
And to think that this system determines the nominee..
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Not sure what the motivation behind this move is.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)The point of the caucus is that it rewards the sort of ground game a campaign needs to develop: can you get the right people to the right places with the right instructions?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)(As Ive seen some complain about) Its a double edged sword - sometimes its bad, and most times the rep is earned. But yeah, the money thing is important to fix- we dont need work around a like undemocratic caucuses.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Sans actual smoke nowadays, obviously. But I think party candidate selection doesn't have any guarantee of being democratic.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Id read something a while back arguing to bring back those rooms- to increase bipartisanship and general deal making without the public watching in judgement if every move. Pragmatic me agrees, people need to realize everyone is working largely from self interest and deals arent inherently bad. I think it was in the Atlantic?
Wish I could find it.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)But cannot for the life of me find it. IIRC the other argument was that the smoke-filled room is another safeguard against a Trump-like figure.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)When in reality the system was built for some compromise and horse trading. I think the article was about the rise of the outsider in politics? Let me look for it.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Primaries are more representative of the general. Winning a primary would show you have a more competitive ground game with respect to the big show.
Apples and oranges.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)To allow the poor and marginilized the same voice as people privileged enough to spend a couple of hours of a weeknight advocating for their candidate. And no way should a candidate with a small number of fanatically loyal supporters be allowed to beat a candidate with a large number of supporters who cant make it to a meeting.
Same reason we should vote on a weekend and everyone should get time off to vote.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)Some people call for a single national primary, which would indeed totally screw the campaigns that are initially small and underfunded.
The current rule in each major party is that the process will begin with voting (be it caucus or primary) in four small states, one in each geographic region of the country: Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada. Other states, recognizing that voting early tends to give them more influence, see a value in moving up their contests, but the parties have generally been able to curb this tendency toward front-loading. For 2020, it's likely that no state other than those four will vote before March 1.
That isn't a perfect solution, but it at least offers some hope to a campaign that starts off small and underfunded but that can gain support over time. I think that's better than relying on caucuses.
The problem with the system is that it's always (at least for the foreseeable future) the same four states that start off. This gives them an unfair advantage. For example, some commentators believe that the prominence of Iowa, which grows a lot of corn, has been a factor in the government's promotion of ethanol, because candidates feel compelled to support ethanol or risk being hurt in the crucial Iowa caucuses.
It would be better to have something like a series of regional primaries (some "regions" might be only a single state), with the order of them rotating from cycle to cycle. Given how Iowa will fight to keep the first contest, and New Hampshire will fight to keep the first primary, there's virtually no chance that this will happen.
question everything
(47,460 posts)It is not only that if one cannot attend it - and in many states caucus takes place during a cold winter night - one is denied a vote. it is that delegates to the party convention are selected from caucus attendees.
And, at least until recently, many candidates promised to "abide" by the party endorsement, making the following primary a rubber stamp.
So this year, in Minnesota, the flood gates are open and many ignore the endorsements to run in the primary. This include also... DNC Deputy Chair Keith Ellison.
On edit: Minnesota eliminates the caucuses for presidential candidates, but still exist for all other offices.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)democratisphere
(17,235 posts)abuse caucus manipulation for their own warped gain.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,839 posts)I've been to them in more than one state, and the close contact with other Democrats is something that shouldn't be lost. Yes, I understand that anyone not available in that relatively short time frame is left out (but all of you who enthusiastically advocate that Election Day be a national holiday don't get it that a significant number of people will NOT be off work that day) and so I concede that a primary is more fair. But maybe there is a way to bridge the gap. Just like there will always be those who do shift work, who will be working during those hours all of you with a normal office job are off -- and who take happy advantage of us because you shop or go to a restaurant or call the police or go to the ER -- and understand that unless the caucus/primary/election day is at least 24 hours (and that last, Election Day, in states that have no early voting) get it that not all of us work daylight with weekends and holidays off.
Again, I personally love a caucus. Depending on the state, they tend to be on a weekend and often in the early evening, so those of you who work "normal" hours have no complaints. So I honestly don't get the beef here.
RandySF
(58,693 posts)Or weekends are free just because we might not have work? Do caucus site have people with day care centers or homework tutors as we bring our kids along on a school night? How about elder care for the parents we may be raking care of? Can you see how caucuses favor certain groups of people?
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,839 posts)I especially know because most of my working life I've done shift work. And because of that I'm very aware of the bias against those who do not work a normal day job. I see it most clearly in the suggestions that Election Day be a national holiday, as if every person in the country would have that day off. Trust me, the Election Day sales would keep every single retail employee working at least 12 hours, if not more, on Election Day, as if no one works on the weekends or on other holidays. I've spent my entire working life working weekends and holidays, and I can get a bit resentful of those who work daylight with weekends off, as we used to put it. Oh, and holidays. When I was an airline employee we NEVER got holidays off (remember, you were flying somewhere and expected the planes to operate?). I worked 50 weeks a year. The other two weeks were my vacation. I NEVER got an extra day off for a holiday. Never. Think about it. Think about those three day weekends you get if you have a normal office job. I never got those.
But that's not the point.
The first time I came up against a caucus was in Colorado in 1988. The local caucus was down the street from us, and my husband went there while I stayed home with our two children, 4years and 6 months old. After a while he called me to say that we were welcome, I could come and bring the kids. So I participated. While in my opinion my kids were very well behaved, I knew that not everyone would agree with me. And so I was amazed and grateful that we could show up with the kids. Perhaps the fact that this was a Democratic Party caucus mattered?
After the caucus, my husband and I both became delegates to the local convention. Jefferson County, Colorado. The convention site had babysitters so we could bring the kids and they'd be taken care of. Wow. Exactly as it should be.
This is exactly what should happen, caucus, primary, whatever. People have young children. Babies. Real life makes it difficult to mind them or to take them along, which I remember very well.
I want to emphasize that what I like about the caucus process is the interaction between those there. Different opinions are presented and discussed. People get to consider differing points of view. Maybe there should be a caucus system that takes place over 24 or more hours, so that those with different work/life schedules can participate in that discussion.
In a primary, you simply go to the polling place and vote for your candidate. Nice, but no interaction or discussion with those supporting another candidate. If you've never had the chance to participate in a caucus, you can't understand that difference. You and I and all who read this post are very used to and comfortable with going to a polling place and voting for our preferred candidate. I cherish those caucuses where we got to present our views on our preferred candidates, and explain why we (and by we I mean anyone who was there) thought one candidate was a better choice than another. That was retail politics at its best.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)RandySF
(58,693 posts)Do we tell them tough luck? I remember a number of hotel/casino employees in Nevada had to return to work without voting.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,839 posts)better place to attend a caucus, depending on when it's held. And how long it lasts.
Trust me, I've worked shift work almost my entire working life, and while there are things I liked about it (such as being able to show up at odd times for various things), there are other things I did not like, such as NEVER getting a holiday off. And never getting an extra day in lieu of the holiday.
Here's my essential point, as someone who has participated in caucuses and has really liked them: the interaction that occurs in a caucus leads to exchange of information and ideas that cannot possibly occur in a primary where you simply vote. I understand the problem of a caucus occurring at a specific time which means that the number of people who can participate is limited, compared to voting which, unless it is unduly restricted, means most people can participate. Clearly the decision should be in favor of more participation. I get that, no matter how enthusiastic I am (and I am) about caucuses. Perhaps there is some way to incorporate the interaction that occurs in a caucus with the highly desirable participation of the greatest number of people.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)MarcA
(2,195 posts)Caucuses are also filled with endless usually meaningless gestures.
You could still have caucuses for those who want to play politics, but
absolutely Zero effect on the selection of candidates.
RandySF
(58,693 posts)MarcA
(2,195 posts)RandySF
(58,693 posts)oasis
(49,365 posts)Cha
(297,033 posts)Mahalo, RSF!
skylucy
(3,737 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,228 posts)We had primaries before in WA. We need them back.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)That gives states 5+ years to change their system.
If they do not then they get no say on who the nominee is.
sunonmars
(8,656 posts)Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)rogue emissary
(3,148 posts)Now announce they won't seat any delegates from states that only hold a caucus. As other DU have suggested in this thread.
UTUSN
(70,671 posts)caucuses are undemocratic.