"What if Mueller proves his case and it doesn't matter?"

[Garrett78]

An article that I'm pretty sure appeared here on DU back when it was published (November of 2017) has resurfaced in my mind.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/america-epistemic-crisis

One should read the whole thing but some excerpts follow:

And yet millions of Americans fervently believe these things. Different polls find different things, and it’s always difficult to distinguish what people really believe from what they say on surveys. But if 30 percent of America’s 200 million registered voters are Republicans, and 40 percent of those don’t believe Obama was born in the US, well, that’s 24 million people, among them the most active participants in Republican politics.

In short, an increasingly large chunk of Americans believes a whole bunch of crazy things, and it is warping our politics.

This basic story has been told plenty of times (my longer version is here), but the reason we should not let it out of our sights right now is the Mueller investigation.

In short, what if Mueller proves the case and it’s not enough? What if there is no longer any evidentiary standard that could overcome the influence of right-wing media?

For Mueller’s findings to have any effect, they will have to break some part of the basic dynamic on the right. Here’s how it works:

Pundits and yellers in right-wing media compete to freak out the base and reinforce its allegiance to Donald Trump. The base leans on politicians. And most elected GOP officials are in seats safe enough that they fear a primary challenge from the base more than a Democratic challenger. The only way to stave off a primary is to pay obeisance.

That’s why Jeff Flake and Bob Corker are leaving the Senate. They no longer have any control over what their constituents believe or want, and their constituents believe and want increasingly ugly things. Sen. John McCain is saying all the right things now, but back when he faced his own Tea Party challenger, he sprinted right as fast as he could.

GOP politicians cannot (or feel that they cannot) cross the base. And the base is currently being lied to about the Mueller investigation at a furious pace. The entire right-wing machine has kicked into high gear, led by the president himself, furiously throwing out chaff about Comey, Mueller, Obama, Hillary, the dossier, the uranium, the emails, and whatever else.

As always, the goal of this media/political offensive (there is no longer much distinction) is less to present some coherent alternative account of the facts than to fill the atmosphere with fog, to give those on the right enough cover to slough off the charges as yet another liberal plot. (See Vox’s Sean Illing’s great interview with Charlie Sykes, the conservative talk-radio host who criticized Trump and was excommunicated, for more on how this happens.)

This reaction to Mueller in right-wing media was predictable enough. Similar things have happened so many times before, and been studied, analyzed, and documented. But to this day, no one knows how to stop or counter it. Mainstream institutions seem as unable as ever to resist its warping effects. It’s all playing out like some morbid script that we can only watch, stupefied.

Say he pardons everyone. People will argue on cable TV about whether he should have. One side will say up, the other will say down. Trump may have done this, but what about when Obama did that? What about Hillary’s emails? Whatabout this, whatabout that, whatabout whatabout whatabout?

There is no longer any settling such arguments. The only way to settle any argument is for both sides to be committed, at least to some degree, to shared standards of evidence and accuracy, and to place a measure of shared trust in institutions meant to vouchsafe evidence and accuracy. Without that basic agreement, without common arbiters, there can be no end to dispute.

If one side rejects the epistemic authority of society’s core institutions and practices, there’s just nothing left to be done. Truth cannot speak for itself, like the voice of God from above. It can only speak through human institutions and practices.

The subject of climate change offers a crystalline example here. If climate science does its thing, checks and rechecks its work, and then the Republican Party simply refuses to accept it ... what then?

That’s what US elites are truly afraid to confront: What if facts and persuasion just don’t matter anymore?

As long as conservatives can do something — steal an election, gerrymander crazy districts to maximize GOP advantage, use the filibuster as a routine tool of opposition, launch congressional investigations as political attacks, hold the debt ceiling hostage, repress voting among minorities, withhold a confirmation vote on a Supreme Court nominee, defend a known fraud and sexual predator who has likely colluded with a foreign government to gain the presidency — they will do it, knowing they’ll be backed by a relentlessly on-message media apparatus.

And if that’s true, if the very preconditions of science and journalism as commonly understood have been eroded, then all that’s left is a raw contest of power.

Much more at the link, believe it or not.

[dem4decades]

1. Then it's over

[coti]

5. But it's not.

The guy's not right.

[Garrett78]

12. He's not right about what exactly?

Roberts is asking questions (and making points along the way that are difficult to dispute). Such as the fact that right wing politicians/media create a 'fog to provide cover'--like how Kellyanne Conway employs the Gish Gallop. Such as how tens of millions of Americans believe utter nonsense.

Roberts is not saying X, Y and Z is what will happen.

But consider the fact that Trump is actively breaking numerous laws (federal records law regarding communications with world leaders, Sabraw's court order, the Flores Settlement, etc.) with zero consequences.

And it is certainly possible that Mueller can prove his case without it fazing Republicans. Maybe Trump will be forced to resign at some point, but maybe not.

[First Speaker]

2. Then we either become an open one-party state, or the country collapses...

...whether into chaos, or civil war, God alone knows. As for those among us who think civil war is impossible...well, it won't be men in blue and gray charging at each other. Think of Northern Ireland magnified 100 times. *This* is all-too-plausible...

[CTyankee]

6. Rest your mind. Please read my sig line by David Hogg.

This will save us. The new generation ain't gonna give up.

It will happen. Rest assured.

[Mike Nelson]

3. It depends on who controls...

… Congress. The case against Trump has been in full view.

[coti]

4. I totally get where this is coming from, but it's still really cynical.

It's easy to start questioning nowadays whether the truth matters. It still does. And I actually disagree with the statement that "Truth cannot speak for itself...It can only speak through human institutions and practices." What a humanly-arrogant idea. Odd that climate change is brought up to support that contention- I might go straight to it as a contradiction.

If we don't recognize the truth of climate change, it won't change a damned thing, and there will be consequences. Truth is...reality is...there will be consequences, either way.

As people, compassion for others, kindness, the Golden Rule- the social contract that Traitor Trump so aggressively rejects- help us sustain ourselves as a species and be satisfied in our lives. Rejecting those truths will have likely more profound effects on our future than the rising oceans.

[coti]

8. The continued reasoning of this, where I was going, is that yes, our country's choice to be a

bunch of assholes will have consequences (possibly very, very bad) that will be felt and, thus, learned from. Humanity has these cycles- it is not the first time people have thought maybe it's better to act like dickheads all the time.

Never forget that the arc of history bends toward justice- and I would also add to that, peace. Things will come around and get better, one way or another, even if they have to get much, much worse first.

[Garrett78]

9. Yes, but if nothing is done about what caused the consequences because people deny the cause...

...then we're just left with ever-worsening consequences.

The author is raising questions; he's not saying this is without a doubt the way things will be. But many of the points he's making, which give people cause for concern, are quite evident.

[Hoyt]

7. It's going to take something super serious to lead to impeachment. If trump were to be tried in

a court, I'd bet money that no prosecutor -- federal or state -- can find a jury where there won't be at least one ignorant white wing racist willing the hang the jury. Thus, hard to imagine that trump will ever be convicted in a trial.

Now, I could see something Mueller proves causing GOPers to force trump to resign to avoid impeachment -- perhaps trump could claim that his testicles are so big that he can no longer handle the grind of being Prez, or he is going to spend time with a wife who loathes him and a son who looks like he'd prefer a normal family. Another thing that might force GOPers to act is if trump is endangering their re-election.

Would love to see trump rot in jail, but I'd be satisfied with removing him from office soon, having his empire crumble around him, and watch him die an old, humiliated man.

[empedocles]

10. If Mueller

proved his prima facie case in 2017, it would not have mattered. Trump would have walked away, like Reagan walked away from a black letter treason finding on 'all fours', like nothing 'really' happened. The political case was not there.

If Mueller proves his case this month, Mueller has a better chance than 2017, but the supporting political case is not sufficiently developed.

If the political case gets well developed in the future, the legal case will matter, [imnho].

[Stallion]

11. The Voting Booth is the Final Constitutional Check and Balance

I relish another attempt to exercise my right to vote

[D_Master81]

13. I believe thats whats called a constitutional crisis

[tman]

14. Some of you need to wake up

Mueller isn't going to save America, the voters are. - Atleast they can and must.

Mueller has and will cause big headaches for Trump and the GOP, but they'll fight back with everything they have. They won't forsake Trump until the voters do it.

[GulfCoast66]

15. It will not matter to republicans in Congress

Or their crazy base.

Mueller has never been the solution to our problems. That’s been obvious since they nominated trump. At best he can help drive what has always been our only solution.

Vote the motherfuckers out.