Radosh: Sanders, Ocasio-Cortez are losing the way home

[Bradshaw3]

Many here will remember Michael Harrington, the great socialist thinker who helped inspire the Kennedy-Johnson war on poverty, and a few may remember long time democratic socialist Ronald Radosh. Radosh recently penned a piece about what Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez are getting wrong in their campaigns in the heartland and elsewhere, and says Harrington never would have approved of their approach that could help elect repubs.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/democratic-socialists-gain-momentum-and-lose-their-way?ref=home

[SidDithers]

1. DU rec...

Thanks for posting.

ETA:

There is another area that shows how different Harrington’s strategy was from that of DSA members today. Harrington would never have gone to Kansas, as Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez have done, to campaign for the most left-wing candidate in districts defined by virtually everyone as center-right. Yet there the socialists were on Friday, campaigning in an evening rally for self-proclaimed “Justice Democrat” Brent Welder, whom Ocasio-Cortez acknowledges is running the same campaign she did, under the idea, as reporter David Weigel drily explained, that “what’s good for the Bronx and Queens would be even better for Kansas.”

Harrington would, I think, have backed a victory in that six-candidate Democratic primary for the Democrat most likely to capture the center in a race against the existing Congressman, Republican Kevin Yoder, who seems happy watching Democrats fight amongst themselves.

“This is a center-right district,” he told Weigel, “and people from time to time will cross over to vote for a Democrat. When they worry that the Democratic Party is being taken over by folks who describe themselves as ‘democratic socialists,’ they’re not going to take that risk.” As New York Times reporter Sydney Ember pointed out, after covering the rally, “many establishment Democrats have bristled at the suggestion that the far-left ideas espoused by her and Mr. Sanders represent the party’s position.” Moreover, these Democrats fear that the socialist message in “districts vastly different than hers will turn off, rather than invigorate, voters.”

Sid

[yardwork]

2. Putin's strategy involves both the right and the left.

[OnDoutside]

34. I fear you are right.

[theaocp]

3. Just like there's no "right time" to talk about guns,

there's also no "right time" to talk about policies Americans desire. To do so risks electing a Republican, apparently. How many times did the article smear AOC and Sanders as socialists? I lost count. They could talk about issues, but fealty MUST be observed. It was also noted how even the article put those who aren't AOC and her supporters as "establishment" Dems. So, which is it? You can smear the "socialists" or you can NOT be "establishment". Make up your minds.

[Squinch]

4. They refer to themselves as Democratic socialists. Unlike you,

they don't see it as a smear.

And really? This "establishment" bullshit?

Sigh. With what's at stake in Nov, I guess we just have to expect this nonsense. Thank God we can all see through it now.

[bigtree]

8. you have like ten people here regularly cheering on these hit threads on AOC

...hardly 'all seeing through this now.'

Funny how an echo chamber works.

[Squinch]

10. Whatever bigtree. Most of us think fighting republicans is a better idea than

fighting Democrats. YMMV.

[bigtree]

16. most of have us actually experienced a primary before

...and recognize all of this paranoia about Democratic primary opponents competing for the chance to face republicans in the general election as self-defeating navel-gazing.

[Squinch]

47. Not in this climate you haven't. In case you haven't noticed, we are in a crisis. ALL of our money

and effort should be going toward contested seats. We should not be spending it fighting Democrats in safe districts.

[bigtree]

56. you should be directing this to the people inclined away from your candidate

...there are ways to capitalize on this opposition.

It would be a mistake to just go on and on about the opposition and not recognize the opportunity to pull their supporters in.

Consider the millions who responded to the progressive challenges in the last election. In these challenges they aren't presenting themselves as independents. they are seeking recognition and a place in the Democratic party. that's opportunity, not the threat some portray it as here.

It's not Sanders' or AOC's fault that there are voters inclined away from the incumbent. It's the incumbent's failure to attract these votes. The sooner they face that reality, the better.

[Squinch]

59. That's nice, bigtree. You keep fighting against Democrats. Buh bye.

[bigtree]

61. I'm not fighting your candidate, or any other Democrat, so you can stuff that lie

...I'm defending these Democratic candidates' right and reason to participate in our primary system of elections, and advising you to recognize the support that's behind these challenges as more than a threat to your own candidate.

[watoos]

85. Well said bigtree, Well said.

[lapucelle]

95. I'm wary of anyone affiliated with Brand New Congress.

Brand New Congress ran a candidate in the Republican primary in Arkansas who would have gone head to head with the Democrat in the GE had he won.

BNC is still running a Republican-turned-Independent in a Tennessee congressional gemeral election. Here's what one of their founders had to say about the Democratic party:

Theo: What is your relationship to the Democratic Party?

Corbin: Myself, personally? I have no relationship whatsoever. The organization has very little. We intend to run within their structures, and in their primaries, and we’re thankful that they’ve set up an infrastructure that’s going to allow candidates to run in primaries. But we think that the party has—a long time ago—stopped representing the needs of the American people.

[Cha]

154. Good Corbin.. stay the hell

away for our Democratic Party.

Mahalo, lapucelle

[Gothmog]

101. I really like Ms Davids

Link to tweet

[bigtree]

104. what's not to like?

...she'd be an excellent addition to the party and, I think, a fine legislator.

[Cha]

115. Jeffrey Wright! Sharice is getting some National

attention because she'd be perfect for the job in D.C.

And, local!

Link to tweet

Thank You, Goth!

[Gothmog]

145. Yep

Link to tweet

[Cha]

149. Team Sharice.. A New Sharice Tweet to me.. Mahalo, Goth!!

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

144. Sorry but I think it's funny that Ocasio-Cortez is talking up women being elected in congress while

Link to tweet

[Cha]

114. Exactly, Squinch.. I think there's more than "10 people

here" who don't think BS-AOC are doing the right thing by trying to label, Sharice Davids, Lacy Clay, Stephanie Murphy, and whomever else is in their sights, with their favorite slur insults like "establishment" "corporate shills" or whatever to suit their OR, cenk's Justice Democrats, and glenn greewald's so-called purity code.

Link to tweet

[RhodeIslandOne]

38. You also have ten people in every thread....

.....explaining away how it’s all well and good to randomly sandbag sitting Democrats.

[theaocp]

43. They're called primaries.

Previous drafts can always be revised. Hail democracy.

[Hekate]

44. Yes, I have certainly seen a surprising amount of that here lately...

Or, maybe not so surprising after all. SMH

[Cha]

123. Yeah, he tried to marginalize.. didn't work.

[KPN]

60. [phone]

[Bradshaw3]

81. It's not a hit piece; if it was I wouldn't have posted it

Radosh is a credible left wing Democrat who makes some valid points. I didn't post it to start another refight of the primaries but rather because it is a thoughtful piece on the best approach to reaching goals that more than 90 percent of us on the center-left share. We can fight over the ways and rapidity of change after we win back the government. First we have to do that, and the author makes some good points about accomplishing that - while staying true to the vision of people like Harrington. FWIW I think Bernie takes too many hits on here but in this case I think he is making a mistake.

[bigtree]

88. he may have been, at a time when he could get away with claiming he was a leftist

from Wikipedia:

Radosh's political views eventually began to shift towards conservatism and his work as a historian has been characterized as being of a conservative variety. Currently employed by the Hudson Institute, Radosh has also published books about the activities of Joseph Stalin's NKVD during the Spanish Civil War and the foundation of the State of Israel.

here's something interesting:

"According to his close friend David Horowitz..."

...close friend David Horowitz? Really?

(Despite Horowitz being a founding intellectual member of the New Left in the 1960s, and an advocate for civil rights and equality, he has since the late 1980s become a driving force of the anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant and anti-black movements. SPLC)

[Bradshaw3]

105. I wasn't aware of his shift

But reading his article I don't think it qualifies as a hit piece at all and doesn't take away from his points. I grew up in Oklahoma, which has similar politics to Kansas in many areas. I just don't see the point in running very liberal candidates in most areas of red states. Joe Dornan ran for governor of Oklahoma in 2014 as an unabashed liberal and got 41 percent of the vote. Previously, Brad Henry had won twice as a moderate to conservative Democrat. I think 2018 is the year we have to come with our best game as Democrats. I don't think this strategy of Bernie and OC is the way to do it.

[bigtree]

110. fair enough

...I do think that relying on moderate voters to fill out our ticket is always going to be a dubious proposition.

I'd take this opportunity to try and expand and fill out the base of voters with these folks more inclined to Democratic politics.

[OilemFirchen]

138. By nominating a Democratic Socialist?

A sizeable chunk of "these folks more inclined to Democratic politics" (sic) don't vote anyway, and certainly won't vote for an "establishment" candidate. Meanwhile, you face the very real possibility of centrist to conservative Democrats, who reliably vote, staying home.

Great plan.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

70. If you want to write seats off, go ahead & ignore the electorate. And fuck divisive termnilogy.

Fuck that divisive terminology. Forget shitty phrases like "establishment democrats". Stop dividing, please. Dividing pleases Putin and the RubleCon-Trump Party.

If you want to get socialist policies enacted, you have to elect Democrats. Period. Democrats. Republicans are not going to do it.

In Kansas, support Democrats who can win. In the Bronx, support socialist Democrats who can win. There is no contradiction and no smear to state it exactly as I have.

Support Democrats who can win, socialist or centrist depending on where they are running.

[SunSeeker]

82. Exactly. And Single payer is not exclusive to socialist countries.

Single payer is found in well run free market democracies, like Canada and France. That association of single payer with socialism buys into the GOP narrative and makes it harder for us to get single payer. Same thing with living wage legislation. Calling it socialism may get more people to sign up for Democratic Socialists of America. But it will not get us closer to these progressive goals.

[GulfCoast66]

147. I am not aware of the health care in any socialist countries

For that matter, except for Cuba and Venezuela I am not aware of socialist countries.

I go to Western Europe almost yearly. They are all capitalist with Social Democrat governments.

[Trumpocalypse]

131. Well said nt

[True Blue American]

75. She made a grave mistake of going to Kansas

With a non Democrat.

[SunSeeker]

76. How is pointing out that socialists will not draw GOP voters in a center right state a "smear"?

How is Welder, a campaign operative of a 30-year congressman, not "establishment," but Davids, a lesbian Native American MMA fighter who lived on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, part of the "establishment" to you?

[Cha]

106. They can't see past labeling anyone who BS doesn't support..

it seems to be ingrained.. talk about "established".

Link to tweet

[SunSeeker]

111. Thanks for posting that tweet! Hope she wins! nt

[Cha]

118. So hope Sharice wins.. here's another Sweet tweet from last night..

Link to tweet

[MustLoveBeagles]

139. Thank you for posting this Cha

I hope these women win in November. Natives need to have their voices heard. Their issues and concerns have been ignored for far too long.

[NurseJackie]

5. "Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez (...) approach that could help elect repubs" --- I wonder if...

Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez (...) approach that could help elect repubs

I wonder if they know, or understand or even care? People are getting the impression that it's all about the "celebrity" aspect rather than the actual job one is elected to do... or the actual race (at home) that one is nominated to run for. Is the larger message being lost in a wave of personal aspirations?

Some people, including myself, would like to know.

[Me.]

11. Well Put NJ

And I will keep pointing out that while she's gadflying about what she's not doing is what Crowley did to lose the primary, ignoring the district in which she wants a win,

Also..."DSA still heralds the memory of Michael Harrington, but it has strayed far from the actual politics he practiced. Were he alive, he might even think twice about remaining a member"

[smirkymonkey]

23. This!

She was just elected. She should be getting down to work, Not flitting all over the country like some ambitious ingenue.

[Me.]

27. Shoot, She Hasn't Even Been Elected

which is a good part of my point, she won a primary and has yet to win an election

[smirkymonkey]

53. I stand corrected. She won the primary.

But she should really be focusing on her own district. She seems to have gotten caught up in the whirlwind of her sudden celebrity.

[Me.]

96. Totally Agree

Dance with those who brought you, all 16,000 of them

[kstewart33]

46. It would be useful to remember that the Democratic color is blue.

And the Republican color is red.

Hoping that she will buckle down, focus on winning her race, and study up on issues beyond her platform. Her video interviews have not gone well.

[Squinch]

49. As lapucelle pointed out, very close to OC's district there is a rare chance to unseat the

horrible and odious peter king in Long Island. OC has a voice there. Wouldn't it be great if she would help turn that seat BLUE?

[lapucelle]

31. We could use her help on LI helping us flip Peter King's seat.

We have a great shot with first time candidate who has already fought for and won a significant victory.

This mom just won the right to use campaign funds to pay for child care.

Liuba Grechen Shirley is the first female candidate to get federal permission to use the funds for babysitting. The decision comes at a crucial time.

https://www.vox.com/2018/5/11/17340698/mom-mothers-congress-child-care-liuba-grechen-shirley-campaign-funds-babysitting

We need all hands on deck, and Liuba is running in the county adjacent to the Queens portion of NY 14th.

[Me.]

36. Now There's Someone I'd Love To See Gone

A tough guy to beat, he's like a stone embedded in the landscape.

[lapucelle]

57. Peter King is damaged goods and vulnerable for the first time in many years.

Even though he voted against the Trump tax giveaway, middle class Long Islanders were hit hard and are angry. We lost our federal deduction for property taxes and state income taxes, so many of us are paying more.

In addition, there are regular, ongoing protests against Trump's immigration policies in front of his village office. The types of people who show up tells us we have a chance.

?itok=47yFNc8l

[Me.]

97. Fingers Crossed

[brer cat]

143. I hope she gets the help she deserves.

Flipping King's seat would be very sweet.

[R B Garr]

25. Exactly NJ! They don't seem to know how to

run against Republicans. Constant campaigning just for the celebrity aspect.

Seth Moulton is hitting it out of the park on State of the Union about “narrow views” He totally nailed it. Not every voice fits in all areas. Politics 101.

Great post, NJ.

[jrthin]

45. Well put. I too would like to know, since this is beginning

to feel like 2016 again.

[Bradshaw3]

77. I'm not sure

Obviously any candidate who starts getting national attention is going to get an ego boost out of it, as you would see in any public area like show business, sports etc. just because that is how most humans are. I think OC because of her age is maybe getting swept up in it all.

I just think all of us, Bernie supports and democratic socialists, HRC supportes, POC, red state Dems, etc. just have to be pragmatic and not start needless fights when we agree on 90 percent or more of the issues. Vote for the Democrat most likely to win. We can return to internecine batles once we've taken back the government.

[Cha]

109. Glad someone is pointing it out besides

just us on DU. The M$M is all about trying to shame Good Dems!

[bigtree]

6. he sounds a bit self-loathing here

...whatever floats his boat.

He's worried about upsetting 'centrists' and moderates' who regularly denounce what he believes in.

He has every right to his opinion, but people in these conservative states who identify with these progressive rivals might not be as obsequious to the beliefs of those who regularly spurn their interests and concerns as 'fringe' and radical in cynical campaigns.

People aren't going to be satisfied hiding their beliefs like there's something wrong with a living wage, guaranteed healthcare, abortion rights, or any of the panoply of progressive issues that are regularly put aside by candidates afraid of offending some conservative-minded voter.

Obviously these candidates' supporters aren't satisfied with the stealth approach to representing their issues and concerns. We'll see if they eventually subjugate those to support the election of one of these "left-wing of the possible" candidates.

[melman]

7. Ronald Radosh is

'an adjunct fellow at the Hudson Institute, is author of a history of the Democratic Party' according to the dailybeat bio.


here's the book in question.


https://www.amazon.com/Divided-They-Fell-Ronald-Radosh/dp/0684863626








adjunct fellow at a rightwing think tank and author of smear books.

Nice source

[bigtree]

9. inspiring

...

[R B Garr]

12. Bernie Sanders regularly criticizes the party.

You should Google his criticisms. You seem to love it when he does it. We’re told it is “help”.

[bigtree]

13. is he associating his criticisms with a right-wing think tank?

...While describing itself as "non-partisan" and preferring to portray itself as independently "contrarian" rather than as a conservative think tank, the Hudson Institute gains financial support from many of the foundations and corporations that have bankrolled the conservative movement. The Capital Research Center, a conservative group that seeks to rank non-profits and documents their funding, allocates Hudson as a 7 on its ideological spectrum with 8 being "Free Market Right" and #1 "Radical Left."

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Hudson_Institute

[BannonsLiver]

17. It wouldn't matter where it came from

She is above criticism or critique of any kind, apparently. If someone goes there even lightly whinging ensues from her followers.

[bigtree]

19. au contraire

...her critics believe their candidates of choice are made of glass.

[Cha]

133. Majorly Whinging.

[R B Garr]

20. LOL, how naive.

Look who supported his campaign according to the Mueller indictments. He is certainly useful to the RWers because of his criticisms of my party. That’s pretty hilarious that his criticism is coveted while others parroting him are maligned. Double standards again.

[bigtree]

21. is he a 'fellow' at a right wing think tank?

..or not?

[R B Garr]

22. He is a Senator who doesn't want to be a Democrat. nt

[bigtree]

24. if we get two more seats in the senate

...he'll be caucusing with Democrats and helping maintain our Democratic majority.

[R B Garr]

26. You should read the Mueller indictments and how his

criticisms helped the GOP. They micro targeted voters. Look who is in the White House. edit: re: double standards about “criticism”

[bigtree]

30. republicans use a lot of statements to stir dissension and division among Democrats

...that's happenstance and opportunism, not outright association with Sanders.

It's unfortunate, but it's sophistry to claim Sanders is deliberately complicit in all of that right-wing spin.

Look at what the Hudson Institute does. Their efforts are designed to do precisely what you're attempting here; to sow resentment against Democratic allies.

Diversion fail.

[R B Garr]

32. The title of that book looks like he could

have written it. It looks like you who is trying to “sow resentment against Democratic allies”. You can’t cherry pick from the Mueller indictments and pretend Sanders criticisms didn’t help the GOP.

Facts matter. Read the Mueller indictments.

Talk about diversion. You are the one introducing “deliberate complicity” — This was about criticism of my party. It’s applauded when it comes from one Senator. Double standards.

[bigtree]

42. defending Democratic candidates under attack here, on this thread, as well

...under attack for having the temerity to challenge Democrats in power in a Democratic primary.

That's not sowing division. At least not in the real world.

Diversion #2 fail.

[R B Garr]

136. You aren't defending Democrats under attack.

You are trying to pretend that their attacks on my party are their God given right while trying to deny others from noticing what they are doing.

You should look at your own diversions.

You should read the Mueller indictments. That is the real world. Not your attempts to malign people who don’t like incumbent Democrats being attacked in safe seats just to promote personalities.

You seem very invested in misunderstanding the fundamental issues here and instead try to personalize things. It’s very obvious.

[RhodeIslandOne]

40. I wonder if he tells Tom Carper "hey no hard feelings I want you gone"

[bigtree]

54. last time I looked

...his opponents in the primary are running as Democrats.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but these Democratic rivals are competing for the chance to represent the state against the republican challenger. Voters will make up their minds who they want to take on that task.

In my view, the problem you ultimately have is with the people who are inclined to cast a vote away from the incumbent in that race, not the vehicles for that discontentment. Why are these Democratic rival's supporters inclined away from the legislator in power?

It's up to Carper to make certain those votes go his way in the general election, if he wins.

If not, he'll need to do what he can to deliver his supporters to the polls. It's not foreign territory. He can either posture against these candidates, or work to draw in their supporters, many of whom may well have sat out this election, save the appeals from these challengers.

It remains to be seen whether Carper can build on his voter base, and capitalize on that. It would make perfect sense to avoid, at the least, alienating this Democratic primary resistance to their incumbency.

[RhodeIslandOne]

55. My point is it's not normal for a sitting Senator...

....to support an upstart, primary or not, over someone he currently caucuses with.

[bigtree]

62. well, that's certainly a novel twist on the complaints here

...I give it a C-.

[RhodeIslandOne]

64. I'm sorry you don't know enough about politics to realize that's protocol

Have a nice day. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

[bigtree]

67. lol, maybe I'll need another 40 years involvement in politics

...to agree with your pov.

Smh.

[sheshe2]

65. +++++

[JI7]

132. i don't think carper really cares or is surprised

sanders doesn't really work with other senators to get things done. that's why after being decades in office he only has the naming of post offices.

[Cha]

134. Excellent point, RB. "BS is just being helpful" I've seen posts like that.

Well, here we are being "helpful". there better be just ONE Standard.

[Voltaire2]

14. Centrist reaching out to the right has done so well over the last 30 years.

That is why we control both houses of congress, the vast majority of states and have appointed liberal judges from the supreme court on down in record numbers.

Funny how the Republican Party never suffers by moving right or advocating policies that appeal to their base.

[guillaumeb]

29. Agreed.

And, even if one were to agree with Radosh, how does campaigning in a safe GOP District elect more Republicans? If the District is safely gerrymandered to be far right, the GOP will win anyway.

Radish is being illogical on many levels.

[JI7]

39. they are trying to defeat some democrats who have won in long time red districts

and they are after some democrats who are more progressive than sanders who supported the NRA.

becsuse their reasons for supporting a candidate isn't whether they are progressive but only whether they supported sanders.

[Squinch]

50. Ah, but in this new world "establishment" and "centrist" is all based on who you know, not on

the policies you espouse.

[Cha]

125. Exactly and the worst litmus test.

[uponit7771]

157. +1

[Nanjeanne]

15. Oh well - if Ronald Radosh tells us what Michael Harrington would think - then it must be right.

[ProfessorPlum]

150. lol

exactly. Who cares what this nobody thinks?

[AlexSFCA]

18. I am no fan of bernie but rethugs seem to be genuinly afraid of him

so maybe they are onto something;

[Wwcd]

79. No, Repubs were afraid of Clinton. Sanders isn't a concern to them

Clinton would have kept the sanctions in place and tightened them even more.

As SS (& as many on Intelligence committees know,) She well knew that Sanctions were what kept the Putin mob bosses from doing what they do around the world.

Bernie voted NO on the Magnitsky Act.
Repubs aren't afraid of Bernie.

Here:
MAGNITSKY ACT: The Biggest Threat To Putin's Regime [/b
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016211584

Repubs had to defeat Clinton to protect the demand from Putin to Lift Sanctions.

Note the vote as to Magnitsky Act.

DEMS All Voted Yes

[AlexSFCA]

87. didnt realize bernie voted against magnitsky act

I know he voted against the most recent bill. He is an idiot for doing that (twice). I am remaining tolerant of him only for the sake of unity; nothing should divide us right now even though I quietly just can’t stand him and what he is doing to our party.

[melman]

89. "DEMS All Voted Yes"

This is false. Carl Levin, Jack Reed and Sheldon Whitehouse voted no.

[guillaumeb]

28. From the article:

There is another area that shows how different Harrington’s strategy was from that of DSA members today. Harrington would never have gone to Kansas, as Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez have done, to campaign for the most left-wing candidate in districts defined by virtually everyone as center-right.

Radosh seems to say that progressives should concede that certain areas are defined as center-right, but following this strategy would concede a huge part of the country and its voters to the far right GOP.

This is a recipe for losing.

[RhodeIslandOne]

41. Uh, Conor Lamb?

Remember him? The Fresh New Face of March?

[ecstatic]

33. If we lose in November, the USA is over. Done. And I would NEVER forgive Bernie,

Ocasio-Cortez, and whoever else helped usher us into fascism. This article provides even more examples of how clueless Bernie and his handlers are. He is not fit to be president. Period. Stay in Vermont!

[SidDithers]

35. +1...nt

Sid

[handmade34]

48. yup

been saying it for a couple years... Bernie needs to go back to work at his real job... maybe not stay in Vermont but represent us in DC

[JCanete]

69. even though you have none, 0 evidence that Sanders has negatively impacted the last race or this one

How foolish is that shit? Really. I thought we were the side that cared about facts....

and Welder was leading in he polls against the republican. So what is all this nonsense and who is this fucking guy anyway?

[GaryCnf]

72. IF we lose in November

It will be because of the same "We have to run centrist candidates because America is a centrist nation" drivel that has cost us 1000 seats and four presidential elections.

We, however, WILL forgive.

[ecstatic]

92. I believe the strategy is to run based on what fits your district

Just as Susan Collins can't run as a Ted Cruz in her district and vice versa, "our revolution" types are not going to fit in with every district.

I'm OK with finding the most liberal option that fits with specific districts, and hopefully in most cases, that person would be way to the left of Joe Manchin, etc.

[JCanete]

100. you win if you best fit your district and your voters know something about you,

but you should run on what you believe in and give the people an option. Its not like running itself has the power to determine what the voters get. What is wrong with presenting the option?

[Jamaal510]

148. +1

[JI7]

37. I'm not sure the author gets it

haven't read the piece yet. but sanders agenda isn't about helping democrats or progressives win.

it's about supporting those who support him and 0defeating democrats who oppose him even if it means republicans win the seat.

[octoberlib]

52. I no longer live there but I was born and raised in Kansas.

My grandfather was a Democratic rep in the state legislature for years. To win , any Democratic candidate needs to be able to get some of those moderate Republican votes except maybe in the Kansas City/Wichita area. Kansas is primarily a rural state, which means people are on the conservative side. I can't see a DemSoc candidate winning there in a state-wide race against a Republican, not with FoxNews blaring on every TV.

[SunSeeker]

165. Exactly. But a Kansan-born daughter of a drill sargeant does have a chance.

Bernie and AOC picked the wrong candidate if their goal was to get a Dem elected.

[GaryCnf]

58. From Wikipedia

Radosh's political views eventually began to shift towards conservatism and his work as a historian has been characterized as being of a conservative variety.[2] Currently employed by the Hudson Institute, Radosh has also published books about the activities of Joseph Stalin's NKVD during the Spanish Civil War and the foundation of the State of Israel.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Radosh

[bigtree]

63. boom!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

119. Or like one of our local popinjays says:

[JCanete]

66. how could it help to elect repubs? This sounds like more bullshit discouragement of going

outside the bounds. Welder was in fact leading the republican in the polls, so this point seems astonishingly dumb.

[SunSeeker]

86. Please post a link to that poll. nt

[JCanete]

102. act.boldprogressives.org/survey/2018polling_ks03/

[KPN]

68. Radosh! No thanks. I'll pass. Democratic Socialist? Hardly -- more like

center right ideologue. Radosh has always been about making the Democratic Party look inept and stirring internal strife. Good job supporting him with this OP.

[bigtree]

83. I thought r/w sources weren't supposed to be used here

...against Democratic nominees.

I guessed wrong.

[Quixote1818]

93. Evidently since this article is still here maybe that rule doesn't apply if they are attacking

progressive candidates?

[snowybirdie]

71. Oh dear

Please don't tell me were starting another Bernie vs whoever here at DU! Let's ignore all the dissension and keep to defeating Repubs in Nov. He's not a Democrat btw!

[underthematrix]

73. I will not criticize Sanders and Ocasio

because we have to make spaces for all voices. However, voters need to view their strategy from the perspective of how it serves Trump and the GOP in 2018 just as it did in 2016.

This is the paragraph that really stood out to me:

Harrington might have personally wanted Medicare for All, but he wouldn’t have risked electing a Republican, in a state that voted for Trump, by campaigning for Welder, the most progressive candidate vying to challenge Republican Kevin Yoder. At a time when everyone knows that the only way to stop the Trump administration’s policies is a Democratic takeover of the House, Michael Harrington would not jeopardize that goal when it might mean moderates and centrists might choose to either not vote or vote for Yoder. He would apply that same logic when it came to endorsing Thompson. At the rally, Thompson said others urged he be more centrist, a course he rejected as being nothing less than being “Republican light.”

So if Thompson wins the primary, Democrats are gonna have to work just as hard for him as they would for a moderate or centrist Democrat because the ONLY way we can protect our democracy at this point is to control both chambers of Congress. It's that simple.

[Squinch]

108. Sure seems self-evident, doesn't it?

[bucolic_frolic]

74. We should not run the risks of turning over leadership of the Progressive movement

to a 28 year old Democratic Socialist, and a charismatic leader outside the mainstream, however popular he may be.

We will be sitting ducks, because right wing media will make it so.

[empedocles]

78. a Socialist

with a lot of republicon, and likely putin help.

[ProfessorPlum]

151. proof please

or is this just pulled directly from your ass?

[empedocles]

80. trump and the republicons knows the key is all about the House in November

While the dems do not seem to be clearly on November. Instead dems do sloppy messages, and DO death march SOCIALIST - ABOLISH ICE stuff.

[brush]

140. Bingo. And with Nov. 3 1/2 months away, running to replace sitting Dems...

with other Dems—time, effort and money wasted IMO.

[SunSeeker]

84. Yep. nt

[oberliner]

122. She is not the leader of the progressive movement

She is just an inspiring progressive voice who managed to win a primary in a huge upset and many like-minded Democratic primary candidates are pleased to have her support.

[ProfessorPlum]

152. with so few leaders in the progressive movement

she is/could become one by default.

[lunamagica]

90. K&R for visibility.

[LiberalLovinLug]

91. So...the just of the article is that there are different strands of "socialism".

And because there are different levels, different applications, different interpretations of socialist policies adapted around the world means that Ocasio-Cortez and Sanders platforms must not fit them all, (not one could of course), and by his twisted logic, means they are 'lost'. . And so predicably he finds an example, and organization called the Democratic Socialist Organizing Committee started in 1973 by Michael Harrington, who has a slightly less ambitious version of the word. Thus by Radosh's short-sighted, one dimensional thinking, it means they must have made some kind of error. And are now "lost".

If ever there is a socialized medicare system put in place in the US it probably will not look like Sweden's. Hell, Swedens does not look or run exactly like Englands, or Canada's for that matter. There are different mixes of private and public services in all of them.

But the underlining connection between all countries with universal healthcare, no matter what percent is allowed to be administered by private companies, is that there is a basic level of guaranteed healthcare, including having a doctor, which includes being taken care of without any real cost, for traumatic injury or disease. That even if private insurers will not cover treatments, the government, by law, will always step in and provide the service. So in essence, they are all Single Payer, when you get right down to it. The basic principle that health care should be a right, not a privilege. That the pool of taxpayers mandatory payments are used to offset and spread the costs for everyone, is the same principle across the board of anyone calling themselves any kind of socialist. No one is 'lost' on that ideal.

But how the US organizes a Single Payer system would be unique, and difficult. Now that they have not followed the other western democracies when those others were implementing Single Payer, decades ago, means that the private system is much more entrenched, including having an army of lobbyists working 24/7 to stop any kind of government run system. How will the US deal with thousands of private insurance workers losing their jobs. Or with highly profitable doctors and hospitals having to share the wealth? It won't be easy, but it can be done.

But what a ridiculous article. There is no one perfect 'home' to stray from.

[oberliner]

94. I think you mean "gist"

Not "just"

[reACTIONary]

98. You are right, there isn't one perfect...

..... idelogical stance. But that isn't what I got from the article, far from it. What I heard was that choices should be made situationally, not ideologicaly. In a center right district you don't go full pinko commie rad. You treat politics as the art and science of the possible.

[Gothmog]

99. Why is AOC campaigning for men over women candidates?

Link to tweet

[bigtree]

107. there are other women competing in those races

...some have her support.

Maybe not your candidate of choice. In the race where Davids is competing, for example, there's also another woman in that 6-way contest.

AOC is obviously supporting people of like agenda and those who supported her own campaign.

[SunSeeker]

112. Welders supported AOC's primary campaign?

Because Davids is just as progressive as Welders, so that can't be a reason she picked Welders over Davids.

[bigtree]

113. they share agendas

...but, do go on and tell me how much Davids agrees with her.

She advocates a different candidate than you. Make of it what you will.

[SunSeeker]

116. Well, Davids' agenda is a livable wage, good education and universal health coverage.

What part of AOC and Bernie's "agenda" does this conflict with?

[oberliner]

120. She does not promote Medicare for All, tuition free college, a $15 minimum wage

These are all positions that Brent Welder has been espousing throughout the primary - and are the progressive positions that he shares with AOC.

Davids is a good candidate also, but Welder is definitely more progressive and to her left on economic issues.

[SunSeeker]

127. She absolutely does promote Medicare expansion/universal coverage.

She also supports free state college for all who can't afford private college, and she also supports a higher minimum wage. And you are mistaking her support of Native American entrepreneurship with being to the right of Welder. She just has a broader economic position than Welder. https://www.shariceforcongress.com/priorities

Alas, she does not use Bernie's buzzwords, and she was not a campaign operative for Bernie, which appears to be her main disquailifier.

[GaryCnf]

137. Have you even been to her priorities page

https://www.shariceforcongress.com/priorities

She is an inspiration. She is a fine candidate. She is a solid mainstream Democrat. Those are all plusses compared to any Republican and Yoder for absolutely sure.

She is not progressive.

[SunSeeker]

141. Yes, I have been to her site. I quote from it in this thread.

She is very much a progressive.

[GaryCnf]

155. And

crickets

[SunSeeker]

156. And

Crickets from Davids critics in reponse to my post:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10910787

I'm not going to repeat myself just because you won't read the thread.

[GaryCnf]

158. I post her words

You post your spin

[SunSeeker]

160. I posted Davids' words. You seem determined not to read them. nt

[GaryCnf]

142. What part of this is anything other than pure mainstream

Sharice believes -
•The current Republican tax bill is a corporate giveaway and a handout to the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans.
•Worst yet, the tax bill saddles our future generations with a crippling financial burden and further in debts our country to foreign nations, such as China.
•Small businesses are the lifeblood of America and need to be front of mind when creating economic policy.
•Modernizing our aging infrastructure is necessary to maintain our communities and our economies. It would create thousands of jobs and provide a foundation for decades of future growth.

Sharice plans to -
•Fight for a true tax cut for the middle class.
•Incentivize health care benefits for small businesses and create a small business standard deduction to lower administrative costs.
•Create a childcare tax credit to help working families across America.
•Support efforts to increase broadband access, which is key to economic success in the modern economy.

______________

Sharice believes -
•Every student should have access to quality public education, regardless of their zip code, ability, or special needs.
•Supporting early childhood education and afterschool programs benefits families and gives children more opportunities to succeed.
•The cost of obtaining a college degree has skyrocketed and so has the likelihood of crushing student loans. We should be implementing policies that encourage and facilitate the opportunity for higher education.
•Students should be exposed to careers in trades and technical areas - skills that are vitally important to a robust economy.

Sharice plans to -
•Implement a holistic approach to education, focusing on access to quality public options from pre-K through secondary higher education and promoting strong, skills-based training programs.
•Prioritize access to public education and facilitate ways for Congress to partner with and support states in implementing robust K-12 systems. Sharice will work to support opportunities to hone technical skills through apprenticeships and partnerships with community colleges and trade schools.
•Support Head Start programs and ensure they are operating effectively. Sharice understands the importance of afterschool and summer programs for educational success, particularly in households where adults are working long hours to support their families.
•Support policies that enable people to refinance student loans at lower rates and make it easier to renegotiate a loan’s terms.
•Support initiatives such as loan forgiveness programs for those entering public service.

__________________

Sharice believes -
•We must demand more than condolences from our lawmakers. We need swift legislation to enact common sense gun safety laws.
•We can not allow legislators who accept millions of dollars from the gun rights lobby to continue risking the safety of our children and communities in exchange for campaign contributions.
•Guns do have their place. As part of a military family, Sharice recognizes that firearms have a role in society. That place is not in schools, in hospitals, in mental health facilities, or in the homes of domestic abusers.

Sharice plans to -
•Support a holistic approach to reducing gun violence and deaths in our country.
•Treat gun violence as a public health issue, allowing us to study it and regulate it as such.
•Never accept any campaign contributions or endorsements from the gun lobby.
•Support expanded background checks and higher standards for conceal-and-carry permits.

Seriously, all of these are good policies but you'd be hard pressed to find a single Democrat who is to the right of any of the issues. Mind you, I think we should be proud of that fact BUT being no further left that the most right-leaning Democrats is not progressive.

[SunSeeker]

161. She is in the mainstrain of progressives Dems. She is to the left of many red state Dems on guns.

She is certainly to the left of red state Dems like Joe Manchin and Heidi Heidkamp, and probably to the left of Bernie, on guns, particularly her call for tougher requirements for concealed carry and refual to take money from the gun lobby. Bernie voted against the Brady Bill 5 times and still has not renounced his support of the PLCAA. It takes some guts to be pro gun control in a rural red state.

She is certainly a progressive Democrat on the economy, particularly her work with poor communities of color to spur entrepreneurship, since minimum wage hikes mean nothing if there are no jobs on a reservation. Davids is certainly progressive on social issues/civil rights. But she doesn't self-identify as a socialist. I realize that gives some folks the sads, but that does not make her any less of a progressive. How many progressive Dems fought alongside the Native Americans of Pine Ridge Indian Reservation to keep the Keystone XL pipeline from going through?

It is patently ridiculous and a smear to claim Davids is "no further left that the most right-leaning Democrats" and that she "is not progressive."

Regardless, pray tell why you would want a candidate in a red state who is outside the progressive Democratic mainstream?

[GaryCnf]

162. Do you not see the irony

You began by showing nothing more progressive than that Davids is to the left of Manchin and Heitkamp on guns, the two furthest right senators in the party (oh that and a bullshit attack on Sanders). You end by saying that me pointing out that she is to the left of only the most right wing in the party is a smear.

As I said, being mainstream as a Democrat is no sin and makes Davids and other centrist politicians a world better than any Republican. Unfortunately it appears her supporters are unwilling to support her based on that and her inspiring life story. No, instead they want to paint this as a contest between two people with identical political beliefs separated by some nefarious motivation which makes one of them repugnant.

It's pure Brock triangulation.

[SunSeeker]

163. So you admit you lied when you said she's "no further left that the most right-leaning Democrats."

Baby steps. Baby steps.

Obviously you're not a fan, since she doesn't foolishly and incorrectly invoke socialism to describe the progressive Democratic agenda.

[bigtree]

126. you know well that's the business of these individual campaigns

...pretending there aren't any differences is a strategy, I suppose.

Not a very good one, imo. ( I was being sarcastic about debating the details of these campaigns)

I don't think Welder or AOC is actually campaigning against any one of the six candidates in that race. He's actually campaigning in that contest for his chance to represent Democrats in the fall.

[SunSeeker]

129. So Bernie is just doing this "for his chance to represent Democrats in the fall"?! nt

[Cha]

128. Sharice Davids is an excellent choice to represent her

home District 3 in Kansas.. and the AOC-BS bunch better not try to smear her with their favorite insult slurs.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[oberliner]

117. Davids is not just as progressive as Welders

Welders supports Medicare for All, a $15 minimum wage, repealing the Trump tax cuts, tuition-free college.

Davids does not promote any of these positions.

[SunSeeker]

130. You are dead wrong, Oberliner.

Regarding Medicare expansion, college tuition, and living wage, see my above post: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10910713

Regarding Trump tax cuts, here's what Sharice says:

The current Republican tax bill is a corporate giveaway and a handout to the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans. Worst yet, the tax bill saddles our future generations with a crippling financial burden and further in debts our country to foreign nations, such as China.

https://www.shariceforcongress.com/priorities

Where the fuck did you get the impression she does not support repealing the Trump tax cuts?!

[Cha]

153. Yeah, why is that poster going

around spreading disinformation on Sharice Davids?!

Thank You for correcting the record, SunSeeker.

Guess I better get it down so if I encounter him spreading it again.. I'll whip this out. Mahalo!

Regarding Medicare expansion, college tuition, and living wage, see my above post: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10910713

Regarding Trump tax cuts, here's what Sharice says:

The current Republican tax bill is a corporate giveaway and a handout to the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans. Worst yet, the tax bill saddles our future generations with a crippling financial burden and further in debts our country to foreign nations, such as China.

https://www.shariceforcongress.com/priorities

Bullshit on "Brent Welder is more "progressive than Sharice Davids.." Well, NO.

[SunSeeker]

164. Indeed. nt

[randr]

103. Republicons will use Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez as examples

of how the Democrats are fractured and without a cohesive message.
Trump ended up with more Bernie supporters than Hillary had counted on.

[oberliner]

121. Republicans always make crap up to attack Democrats

[Squinch]

124. Exactly. And those who are not paying as close attention as we do will believe it.

And it will lose us votes.

For once, given that the republic is at stake right now, we should present an unbreakable united front. But the usual gadflies won't allow that.

[randr]

146. I only Democrats would celebrate their diversity

they would defuse the frieght wing attack.
We ARE a nation of diversity, it is our strength. Democrats do not march in lock step because they believe the more voices at the table the better solutions are found.
EQUAL representation is important in a democracy, broad representation is a necessity.

[Cha]

159. Thanks for your OP, Bradshaw!