"President's lawyer confirms he colluded with Russia, claims only the hacking was a crime."

[kpete]

1. He's no longer claiming Trump didn't collude with Russia. He's claiming "collusion is not a crime."
2. He's not saying Trump did not know abt 2016 Russia mtg in advance. He's saying Trump did not ATTEND it.

Rudy delivers another hit.

“I don't even know if that's a crime -- colluding about Russians. You start analyzing the crime -- the hacking is the crime. The president didn't hack!”

VIDEO:

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

UPDATE FROM TPM:
So Rudes Just Admitted that Top Trump Brass Met to Plan for the Russian Dirt Meeting Two Days in Advance and Cooperating Witness Rick Gates was in the Meeting.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/rudys-big-admission

[WhiteTara]

1. Now that's a nice way to start my day.

I was feeling a bit grumpy, but now I'm elated. The end of the nightmare is near. Go Rudy, Keep talking.

[Wounded Bear]

2. Interesting semantics, if I read that right...

It looks like Rudy said "colluding about Russians" not collucing with Russians. Perhaps trying to spin that into a patriotic meeting to discuss "fighting" against the Russians. Trumplodytes will probably glom onto that one.

[janx]

8. YES. I noticed that too.

Nobody colludes "about" anything.

[Wounded Bear]

10. Sure they do...

In this instance, they were colluding 'with' Russians 'about' stealing a US election.

[shraby]

3. First there was no meeting.......

then there was a meeting but nothing happened and trump didn't know about it.

Then trump did know about it.

Then trump knew about it but did not attend.

Want to bet the next "then" will be he attended but didn't say anything, hear anything or do anything?

[Wounded Bear]

11. That's how gaslighting works...

[Fred Sanders]

15. Saw no evil, heard no evil, said no evil...was Cohen's original defence when at the criminal

get together to subvert democracy..."lost interest, on the phone"...wonder if he made a recording?

Cohe, private counsel to Trump for a decade, has those goods also...The Big One.

[tblue37]

18. Seth Abramson convincingly argues that Trump attended by speakerphone, as

he so often does.

[calimary]

58. That wouldn't surprise me.

Last edited Tue Jul 31, 2018, 10:21 AM - Edit history (1)

I love the comments that mention “moving the goalposts.” That’s EXACTLY what they’re doing. I’m glad that recognition is spreading!

[Salviati]

62. That and seeing the term "whataboutism" showing up everywhere

Their playbook is getting old, hopefully the wheels come completely off soon.

[barbtries]

53. yet we already know

and i believe the WH has already confirmed, that he dictated the cover up letter claiming the meeting was about adoption.

[roscoeroscoe]

55. Iknowright?!

Cover up after the fact is a crime also, genius!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

4. That man has to be the absolute dumbest man to ever obtain a law license.

This is just....embarrassing. I'm almost speechless.

[GetRidOfThem]

19. He is also one of the ugliest...

Looks like a haloween mask of a living skull

[lastlib]

66. Skeletor reborn....

[Hugin]

5. For GAWD's sake don't talk about the obstruction...

Not even at the lil' talk with Mueller.

Nope! No! Nyet! Nuh-oh! Nevah!

[unblock]

6. it's not a crime to talk to russians or to get political dirt from them.

it's just that you don't normally call that "colluding".

he's technically right, in the sense that if they met with russians and russians handed them proof of something scandalous like hillary ordering dijon mustard or wearing earth tones, that would technically be legal.

talking with russians about committing crimes like hacking, e.g., "russia if you're listening,..." that's clearly a crime.

also a crime would be to ask russians to launch an investigation against a political opponent because contributing labor would amount to a foreign contribution to a campaign.

so even the above example of handing over proof of something scandalous is problematic, as it would have to be information the russians already had and could argue that it had negligible financial value.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

17. Further, a quid pro quo involving lifting sanctions is a crime too. . . . nt

[unblock]

20. correct

supplying russians with information to assist them in attacking our election process would also be a crime.

[NewJeffCT]

24. If Team Trump used the scandalous information obtained from Russia

that IS a crime. Additionally, the fact that they did not report the Russian meeting and the offer to the FBI is also a crime. Thirdly, when the FBI later told Team Trump (including Donald J Trump) that Russia was trying to infiltrate the Trump campaign and they (Team Trump) did not tell the FBI about the Trump Tower offer, or other Russia meetings/emails/contacts, that inaction is also a crime.

[unblock]

36. using "dirt" is a crime if the "dirt" is actually contraband.

if a russian did not commit any crimes in obtaining the information, then it's not a crime to use it.
of course, "assuming" the russians got the information via criminal hacking, then yes, it's contraband and using it is a crime.

i agree that there are election reporting crimes, but they're already up to their necks in that. in any event, i don't see impeachment happening over crimes they can characterize as "paperwork" crimes.

that said, yes, i agree that what you've described are crimes. "meeting with russians" in and of itself could have been legal, but many things about the way it was handled were. not reporting it, in particular, yes.

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

34. It is most assuredly a crime to get "dirt" from the Russians-it's a thing of value

That is a violation of 52 USC 30121

§30121. Contributions and donations by foreign nationals
(a) Prohibition

It shall be unlawful for-

(1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make-

(A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;

(B) a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or

(C) an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication (within the meaning of section 30104(f)(3) of this title); or

(2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.
(b) "Foreign national" defined

As used in this section, the term "foreign national" means-

(1) a foreign principal, as such term is defined by section 611(b) of title 22, except that the term "foreign national" shall not include any individual who is a citizen of the United States; or

(2) an individual who is not a citizen of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 1101(a)(22) of title 8) and who is not lawfully admitted for permanent residence, as defined by section 1101(a)(20) of title 8.

(Pub. L. 92–225, title III, §319, formerly §324, as added Pub. L. 94–283, title I, §112(2), May 11, 1976, 90 Stat. 493 ; renumbered §319, Pub. L. 96–187, title I, §105(5), Jan. 8, 1980, 93 Stat. 1354 ; amended Pub. L. 107–155, title III, §§303, 317, Mar. 27, 2002, 116 Stat. 96 , 109.)

and the Federal Elections Commission has a handy guide to involvement of foreign nationals in the electoral process:

The FEC often receives questions about the rules governing foreign nationals’ participation in U.S. elections. While this article responds to some of the most common questions, it does not cover all aspects of foreign national activity. Readers should consult the Federal Election Campaign Act (the Act) and Commission regulations, advisory opinions, and relevant case law for additional information. For questions involving proposed activity for which there may not be clear guidance, you may consider requesting your own advisory opinion (AO) from the Commission. Please note, however, that the Commission’s jurisdiction is limited to provisions of the Act and does not include other laws that may also apply to foreign national activity.

The Act and Commission regulations include a broad prohibition on foreign national activity in connection with elections in the United States. 52 U.S.C. § 30121 and generally, 11 CFR 110.20. In general, foreign nationals are prohibited from the following activities:

Making any contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or making any expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement in connection with any federal, state or local election in the United States;
Making any contribution or donation to any committee or organization of any national, state, district, or local political party (including donations to a party nonfederal account or office building account);
Making any disbursement for an electioneering communication;
Making any donation to a presidential inaugural committee.

Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to an FEC enforcement action, criminal prosecution, or both.

https://www.fec.gov/updates/foreign-nationals/

[unblock]

40. well here's the debatable point --

engaging russians to expend money to help the campaign is certainly a crime. so if, in response to a meeting, russians then launched an investigation into collecting "dirt" on hillary, that would certainly qualify as a thing of value under the statute you cite.

more debatable is if they already had information on hillary and simply said, "sure, we have lots of dirt on hillary that we amassed over the years having nothing to do with this particular campaign. check out these stories reported in moscow times three years ago."

there it's debatable.


agreed, though, the kind of "dirt" we're talking in this case about arose from an espionage effort undertaken at least in part specifically for this campaign, and likely coordinated with donnie and his cronies. that most definitely is criminal.

[Mc Mike]

67. Agreed. Foreign nationals contributed a thing of value.

Twitler and his people received a thing of value.

They conspired to commit this illegal activity, and conspired to pay off the foreigners with sanctions elimination, settling the Previzon case, giving the russians syria and crimea. Quid pro quo.

I remember when 'citizen journalist' Pimpy O'Keefe tried to create a sting operation, during the '16 campaign, to catch a low level Hillary Clinton campaign worker selling a Clinton for Prez t-shirt to a Canadian. His operation failed, like usual, but it would have been earthshaking if the Clinton campaign made $5 from a foreign national, according to the repugs.


Rudy always starts lisping, sounds like his mouth if full of shit, when he knows he's trying to pull off an especially outrageous lie.

[Volaris]

68. But since trumps entire M O seems to be 'how much money can I make while presidentin?',

'Negligible financial value' would mean he would have had to have LOST THE ELECTION heh...

[ehrnst]

7. 1. I didn't do it.

2. It's someone elses' fault if I did do it.

3. There is nothing wrong with me doing it.

(repeat as often as needed)

[dalton99a]

9. +1

[2naSalit]

12. He's not saying Trump did not know abt 2016 Russia mtg in advance. He's saying Trump did not ATTEND

It all boils down to what your definition of "there" is.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. The crime is conspiracy.

[NRaleighLiberal]

14. Mueller gets a side of collusion with his Monday morning breakfast.

They are just laying all of this stuff at his feet. His conclusions will be breathtaking.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

16. This is about Stage 4 of fighting a retreating battle. Stage 5 is

Stage 5 is "It was a crime but we did it for the right reasons."

Stage 6 is "We don't talk about that part of history because we'll send you to a camp if you do."

Let's not get any further than Stage 5.

[Stallion]

21. Court: Motion to Dismiss Conspiracy to Defraud the United States for Failure to State a Claim DENIED

Proceed with your opening argument counselor

(This is simply a political-not valid legal argument)

[bucolic_frolic]

22. So the plan is Rudy emerges from obscurity every 2 weeks to move the goal posts

and hope no one notices, and then everyone buys into his distorted version of reality.

Must have learned from Trump.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

23. Remind me never to hire Giuliani to defend me if I'm ever charged with a crime.

Any crime. That knucklehead could get you life without parole for jaywalking.

[KPN]

25. "I have the best gaslighting!"

[marieo1]

26. Giullani

He is as stupid as his leader!! Always has been and always will be. He is a gutless moron!!

[Freethinker65]

27. So how long before the " Yes collusion. Yes collusion. Smart. No crime." tweets?

[dchill]

28. Sometimes honesty is just a simple mistake.

[BSdetect]

29. When drumph said "Russia if you're listening" he knew they were and had already hacked info.

[appal_jack]

30. I believe the Constitution has a thing or two to say about Treason. k&r, nt

[peggysue2]

31. Another day, another absurdity

Collusion may not be a crime but Conspiracy to Defraud the Government certainly is. Giuliani is gaslighting the base, expecting them not to ask questions or awake from the stupor.

As the heat turns up, Giuliani and all these Trumpster apologists will be increasingly irrelevant. Mueller has the goods on all of them and they know it

[TNNurse]

32. Giuliani is the attorney Trump deserves.

[sandensea]

46. +1

And he'll be the first to throw him under the bus when things get really dicey.

[Perseus]

33. Collusion is treason

Where is the fine line here? If there was collusion there was an action to help a foreign country, an adversary country, to perform actions that undermined the democracy of the country you claim to represent.

How is that not treason? Collusion IS treason, anyhow you put it. Giuliani, and of course some republican traitors, may want to twist things, but the truth, IMO, is that you helped a foreign/adversary country screw your country, you are a traitor.

[elmac]

35. collusion in this case is a straightforward campaign finance violation and much, much more

he might be charged with conspiring to violate the election laws of the United States, which prohibit foreign nationals from contributing any “thing of value” to an electoral campaign.

Trying to cover up that election violation is also a crime

Collusion is the descriptive word the news media has settled on to cover many potential illegal actions by the Trump campaign, which could range from aiding and abetting (18 USC 2) to conspiracy per se (18 USC 371) to conspiring to violate several potentially applicable laws like: 18 USC 1030—fraud and related activity in connection with computers; 18 USC 1343—wire fraud; or 52 USC 30121—contributions and donations by foreign nationals. Also, 18 USC 2381—for, contrary to a widespread belief that there must be a declared war, the Justice Department as recently as 2006 indicted for “aid and comfort” to our enemies, the form of collusion better known as treason. Collusion is the perfect word to cover such crimes, pejorative and inclusive.
***

[elmac]

41. The fascist is just recycling old goptv garbage.

In June, 2017, Fox news claimed that "collusion" with a foreign government violated no law

[PubliusEnigma]

37. This does bring a smile to my face.

[CanonRay]

38. Title of Rudy's memoirs: Witness for the Prosecution

[RockRaven]

39. By pointing out that collusion isn't the term used in the criminal statutes, Rudy just

highlighted that all of Trump's "no collusion" statements are meaningless, empty babbling. That's bad PR, I think.

Every time Trump or Trumpists say "no collusion" the immediate response should be "who cares? Was there conspiracy, fraud, or theft?"

[anarch]

42. conspiracy against the United States

is a crime. So is accepting campaign contributions from foreign sources, although what with Citizens United I guess maybe not as much so as it used to be....

[Javaman]

43. ghouliani has been just phoning it in.

he's just an opportunist collecting money from the orange asshole.

ghouliani's motto: his money spends as good as anyone elses.

[cstanleytech]

44. If he was involved in something illegal like hacking then he is a co conspirator to the crime.

[KPN]

45. It's all they've got left at this point except the final hopeful ace-in-the hole:

Trump thinks/knows he can always fire Giuliani at the very last minute before the guillotine falls for misrepresenting the facts and, therefore, have it both ways. His base will believe and latch onto what Giuliani spouted today and the self-serving Trumpstler can look (in his own mind mostly) like he's done the responsible thing, safeguarding truth and integrity.

It's all about winning this constitutional crisis politically first and then via force.

[leanforward]

47. Does collusion conspiracy

Reading thread small print. Best thread in weeks I want to get into details of this long thread. Rudy, hang your head in shame.

[greymattermom]

48. Collusion

is just a term that means the combination of conspiracy and obstruction of justice.

[sandensea]

49. With friends like these...

[Power 2 the People]

50. If he knew about the meeting but purposely didn't attend it...that means he knew it was illegal

Eliminates his "new to politics" ignorance defense.Keep talking Rudy.

[barbtries]

51. just another little hop, skip and a jump

and he'll be going on fox and saying none of it matters because he's president and if you're president you cannot break the law. even if you're not yet president and your crimes changed the outcome of the presidential election and you're an illegitimate president. and his fucking cult will cheer.

[True_Blue]

52. If I didn't know better

I'd swear Guilliani is secretly working for our side. Everytime he opens his mouth, he digs Trump's grave a little deeper. It's hard to believe that he was ever a decent lawyer.

[kentuck]

54. Rudy's talking out of his ass...

mostly .

[Stuart G]

56. New revelations all the time...Feels like Watergate, Stinks like Watergate, will it end the same?

Trump is guilty. But...will he be forced out like Nixon..?

New revelations all the time. When did he know about this or that? This one talked to that one, and this one knew that or this. Slow trickle of information. drip, drip, drip,...

Meeting over here, that conversation over there...drip, drip, drip...

Will it end the same?...Sure seems like it might...drip, drip, drip..

[caraher]

57. This worked great for Nixon

Too bad Tricky Dick didn't have a brilliant lawyer like Ghouliani to explain, "The break-in was the crime."

The lesson of Watergate, I thought, was that it's the cover-up that will get the big fish...

[Honeycombe8]

59. He's all but admitting that Trump colluded and did know about the collusion meeting! OMG.

I wonder if Trump approved what Ghouliani said? No way Trump could have approved that runoff at the mouth. Or...did he?

[McCamy Taylor]

60. CONSPIRACY to commit a crime is a crime. Is "collusion" somehow not "conspiracy"?

[edbermac]

61. Colbert just played that clip.

Stephen should be put in jail for murder.

[Midnight Writer]

63. Honey, I didn't have sex with your best friend.

Sure, we spent the night together, but we just talked, about how great you are.

Yeah, we were in bed. We were tired.

I guess we fooled around a little. Just playing.

Alright, we had sex, but it was just one of those things. It didn't mean anything.

Geez, she threw herself at me. Anyone would have folded. I am only human.

You know I love you. I would never do anything to hurt you. We just got carried away. I love you.

So what if we did. If you gave me the attention I deserve, it never would have happened.

You never trusted me. You were suspicious from Day One. You drove me to it.

It doesn't mean I don't love you, baby. It's not like we are married.

Why are you tripping? It's not like you are as pure as snow.

Can't we put this behind us and start over? I'll forgive yoy and you forgive me.

Rinse and repeat.

Does anyone doubt Donald Trump is not familiar with this procedure.

[C Moon]

64. Typical GOP tactic: trying to confuse the public into thinking laws are silly.

[OnDoutside]

65. "HE didn't hack them...He didn't pay them for hacking" - This is what Rudy said, and it struck me as

odd.

The only thing they could throw at the Steele Dossier previously, was that Michael Cohen says he was never in Prague. This is the Prague meeting where it is alleged that he paid the Russians for hacking. The Prague meeting that took place around the time Cohen was holidaying in Italy with his family.

That's one to keep in mind.

[spanone]

69. giuliani is out of his fucking mind.

so is his client.