Can we stop saying 3D guns are "untraceble?"

[hexola]

Aren't they MORE traceable?

We catch people with child porn all the time.

Online downloads - traceable.

Buying a printer - traceable

Buying printing material - traceable

Print jobs on PC - traceable

Begging the question implies we can trace all guns now - we can't!

I keep hearing A. Camerota on CNN saying this - and it sounds stupid.

STOP!

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

1. Why does it matter?

BC we have too many guns now. According to police...everyone has one and is trying to kill them, leading to massive increases in police shootings. For one. We don't need 3D guns like we don't need another version of heroin...bc we can. Enough w the guns.

[still_one]

2. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[hexola]

3. 3-D guns present a vector for implementing gun control

...deal with it!

[genxlib]

4. I think there might be some misdirected concern here.

For one, they are less traceable because they are home made. There are no records of manufacture, sale or background check anywhere to be found. Of course, the NRA has ensured that those records are very difficult to use with any effectiveness so real guns aren't really traceable either.

I think the real concern that has people freaking out is whether they can be detected by traditional security measures. All the places that are currently protected by xray and metal detectors suddenly became a great deal more vulnerable.

While we may worry about airplanes, I think it best to concentrate on the safety of courtrooms and Congress. Their own safety seems to be the only thing that motivates the people in a position to actually do something.

[hexola]

5. There's a difference between detection and tracing.

Im referring to the use of the word "tracing" - detection is a another issue.

As I indicated in my first post - there are records of sale (printers/materials) and manufacture (print logs on PC) and download logs.

And the NRA will have precious little to say about it.

I say they are "traceable" just not in the traditional sense.

[genxlib]

12. That might be true

But none of that information is being given to the government to allow such tracking.

In theory, the Government has access to all that information for traditional guns. However, there is no mechanism where the seller of printers or materials have to report sales to the government. Nor do individuals have to turnover their printer logs.

Then there is the more complicated question of whether the individual gun could be tied to those records. In other words, if a printed gun is found at the scene of a crime, would analysis allow the police to determine that it was printed on a particular model of printer? Not to mention even a particular printer that might be sitting in a suspect's house. I seriously doubt it.

I am not sure what is the point. Printed guns will make an already terrible problem worse in a number of ways.

[markses66]

6. Starting from a 3D printed gun located at the scene of a crime

describe the way it is traced back to its manufacturing printer/owner, and each subsequent owner/user.

Step by step, please. You're making the claim.

[hexola]

7. Not sure - but

Don't make it sound so impossible...its technology. I'm sure there will be a way.

It can be done - might not be as easy as "hey joe - read me the serial number off that gun"

Just spitballing - I guess start with the gun design - who downloaded that file? - regionalize that search - who bought a printer? - regionalize that search. What's the material - who bought that?

That should narrow it down - don't you think?

But don't make it sound like an insurmountable task...

[EffieBlack]

9. Seriously?

[hexola]

10. Are you quite confident its not possible?

You're positive?

Im just spitballing here...I think it can be done.

I dont see why people think this aspect is such a big deal...

[EffieBlack]

14. The Byzantine "tracing" process you propose is preposterous

Your "spitball" process MIGHT work IF the gun is left behind for the authorities to get possession of and analyze it AND THEN do a full search of everyone who ever downloaded a file with that particular gun design AND if everyone who downloaded those particular designs actually printed them out themselves on printers they had personally purchased that could be traced back directly to them AND they personally purchased the material that was used to make the gun.

This only works if the authorities have the gun. If they don't have the gun, ballistics won't tell them a thing.

And all of that is if and only if law enforcement has the time and resources to do this kind of investigation for every incident involving the gun.

In other words, your scenario is ridiculous, both from a practical and law enforcement standpoint.

In other words, these guns are untraceable.

But your effort to convince people that this aspect is "no big deal" is duly noted.

[belcffub]

15. I designed and built my own 3d-printer...

it's not very complicated and creates very high quality parts... and I can also make my own filament... not all the different types but a couple...

I could also make a gun in the garage on the lathe, mill or CNC machine I have... I'm not a machinist... but my other hobbies required hard to find parts... so I learned...

EDITTED to add :: And many 3d printers come direct from China now... it's cheaper... I only designed my own because I didn't want to spend $2k on a high end machine... I built an equivalent for around $500...

[genxlib]

16. For starters

You need a whole new set of laws requiring that purchases of printers and materials get reported to the government.

Otherwise, what databases are you searching?

[Iggo]

24. Should be easy.

Gun-lovers love those kinds of laws.

They should be right on board.

[hexola]

25. Are saying purchases are never entered into evidence of a crime?

C'mon this happens all the time - there are probably many ways to get the info.

[markses66]

21. I want to know that it's a plausible task given your OP

The standard here shouldn't be "That's theoretically possible" but "That's plausible and implementable by policy."

I'll leave out that you have in no way described how subsequent owners of the firearm might be traced. I suppose that's the same way they do it now, where some owner sells the firearm illegally and later claims it was stolen, "Who could know, really, I have 50 of the things - I'm not an inventory expert, tra la." And imagine somebody claiming to print out 30 at a time as experiments!

Your post and idea are silly.

[aikoaiko]

22. Not so easy.

People who will do this to sell 3d printed guns or receivers will download the code at Starbucks or McDonalds, save to a flashdrive, and upload to an air-gapped computer/printer. Printers and computers can be bought with cash and no records.

You don't have to be very bright to create untraceable 3D printed guns or receivers.

But you are right that good old shoe-leather police work can still solve crimes with 3-D printed guns.

[brush]

29. Maybe if the criminal leaves the gun behind. Seriously, how often does that happen?

[EffieBlack]

8. Hummuna Hummuna ...

Looking forward to the responses ...

[hexola]

11. 5 year old article - If You Can't Stop it, Trace it -- Personalised Forensics and 3D Printing

https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/if-you-cant-stop-it-trace-it-personalised-forensics-and-3d-printing-15654/

And yet 3D printing-specific solutions may be able to help law enforcement organizations, not hinder them. By building on 3D printing’s core advantage – that is that complexity is free and each design printed can be unique – each gun printed could be slightly different from the next. This has already led researchers to introduce the possibility of traceable information embedded on the outside and on the inside of 3D printed objects. Translating this opportunity to the problem of 3D printed guns means: gun forensics could, in future, be personalised.

Personalised forensics means that those guns could not only be linked back to the designer, but the place at which they were fabricated. Theoretically, it also means that the bullets shot by such guns could be traced back to the same locations. Soon forensics teams would be able to link back bullets not only to the gun from which they were fired (for which they still need the gun) but also to the person who made the gun, who designed it, as well as additional information that could lead investigators to the identity of the shooter.

Armed with these opportunities, agencies would no longer have a reason to fear 3D printing. Each fresh 3D printing technology development, such as news of 3D printable electronics, would be warmly embraced, leading to new possibilities to track down guns, printers and designs that have been used illegally and the users thereof.

[belcffub]

19. There are a lot of coulds and possibilities in that article...

and its really not very accurate... with any printer if a adjust the print 1 degree each time the print will be different... inverting or flipping the print will cause it to change as well... change the infill pattern, layer hight, sidewall count, etc will all change the print... There's too many variables to track a print to an individual machine...

[Iggo]

13. Did we start?

You and me, I mean.

[Kentonio]

17. Hmmm not really

The only link you have between the gun and the person who made it, is if you already have the person's identity and can check their internet/sales records. The only other option you'd have is to try and trace everyone who downloaded that particular gun print from the internet, which could be hundreds of thousands of people and then try and check if any of those people had also purchased a 3d printer (which you'd expect most of them would have, because otherwise why would they be downloading 3d print schematics?). Then what? Do you forensically examine every one of those 3d printers to see if it matches the print quality of the gun that was used to commit a crime?

Oh and of course if the person who downloaded it did so from a random computer and just saved the print schematic to a thumb drive, then you don't even have that chain to follow.

[Downtown Hound]

18. Well, with enough tech know how

You can wipe any trace of the print record. But that does require more education than your basic run of the mill criminal has.

And you are correct that we can't trace all guns now anyways.

[Oneironaut]

20. Not correct.

Online downloads are absolutely NOT traceable. They’re far from traceable - especially on the “dark” web.

Child porn is also (sadly) extremely untraceable. Abusers are being arrested, sure, but many more roam free to prey on children - especially in countries with ineffective governments.

Print jobs on PCs are not “traceable” at all. That’s an entirely offline process.

3D guns are untraceable in the sense that they have no serial number. Once they’re printed and distributed, it’s next to impossible to determine where they came from. They absolutely would not be traceable, especially as 3D printers become more common.

Normal guns have serial numbers that can be tied back to their manufacturer, and possibly an owner. That’s what they’re speaking about.

I would be happy to expand on this if you want, but the assumption in the OP is absolutely incorrect for a number of reasons.

[Kaleva]

23. If you want an untraceable gun, build a sub-machine gun in a rudimentary workshop

Plans have been available to the public for decades.

[Johnny2X2X]

26. You can put a file on a disc to print it

Disc can be bought and sold with no documentation. And here's where this will lead, once the materials catch up to the technology you'll have 3D printed guns being mass produced quickly. Heck, the military might even send 3D printers into war zones so the guns can be printed and assembled on site.

This technology needs to be regulated right away.

[hexola]

27. It shouldn't be much different than anti-counterfeit technology in printers

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/household-printers-tracking-code/

[DVRacer]

28. Actually I would guess more than 50%

Of all firearms are untraceable in the strictest sense. Most states do not require any paperwork for personal sales or transfers only on new purchases or one from a FFL. Also it has always been legal to make your own and with the current crop of 80% lowers for both Glocks and AR15’s many are out there completely legal. I assembled all of my rifles on my living room table. I personally would not fire a printed gun but as materials improve and technology moves forward I don’t see how it can be stopped. I once said I would never own or shoot a Glock and now I do.
If I could add something right now to the laws it would be open up NIC’s so that when I sell one I know they are not prohibitied and require all local and federal agencies to report.

[Orsino]

30. Way less traceable than a manufactured gun with a serial number. n/t

[hexola]

31. I'll accept less traceable - fair enough.

By today's standards.

[Orsino]

32. How would you trace a particular weapon?

What do you believe the steps would involve?

[hexola]

34. Today? I have no idea...

So many layers of technology - hard to play forensics expert on this one.

But I see this as a huge opportunity for gun control - but you almost have to allow it - so you can regulate it.

And - if you ban it all together - you might as well just join the NRA - probably just what they want.

For sure - we're getting into an engineering wild west moment...things will move quickly.

The goal is to make the 3D gun even MORE traceable than old-school metal.

[Vinca]

33. They will be difficult to trace to a crime because the weapon will most likely be

incinerated after the crime so there will be no markings to compare bullets with. You might be able to learn who downloaded the plans, but you may never know who actually constructed a gun and fired it.

[hexola]

35. Sounds like more of a lead than a metal gun at the bottom of a lake 5 states away

Doesn't it?

[Vinca]

37. Not really. Disposable guns is a dream come true for criminals.

Add to that the fact they're made of plastic and won't be picked up by a metal detector and it's a recipe for disaster. Imagine . . . someone could even sneak a gun into an NRA convention.

[Chris Studio]

36. Eh no.

If I download the blueprints that doesn't mean I've made a gun.

If I buy a gun from someone that downloaded it from a public ISP, that's likely not traceable.

If I download via a torrent that uses a magnet, that's not traceable.

Etc

Etc

They are wildly untraceable comperable to a gun bought with from a gun store.

And BTW.