I don't want a President Pence. I want to keep Trump around as a pinata. *

[DemocratSinceBirth]

He's the Republican party's problem, not ours.






* I should add I can envision scenarios where a President Pence is better but we are nowhere near that yet.

[marybourg]

1. Agree completely.

[nolabear]

2. Fuck. No.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

3. Nope. Removing a mentally insane man from the Presidency is priority number one.

Pence, by his association with Trump, can be our piñata. He'll be a lame duck and damaged goods.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

15. Will he though?

IMHO he would be hailed as a "return to normalcy" by the media, Republicans will rally around him, and pretty much everybody other than LGBTQ persons will relax and ignore his extremely radical religious agenda, which he is undoubtedly in charge of in the Trump WH.

[EffieBlack]

22. This. Completely

[emulatorloo]

26. IMHO Americans don't like theocrats, and Pence has the charisma of a soggy diaper

[Proud Liberal Dem]

32. That would be part of the problem IMHO

people won't be as energized/organized against him. he will fly under the radar. Just my $0.02

[emulatorloo]

51. Trump can sell shit to his base. Pence couldn't sell Mary Kay cosmetics

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. That's exactly what happened with Gerald Ford.

Except Ford wasn't a theocrat.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

33. And Carter didn't exactly win against him in a landslide in 1976 as I recall

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. 50-48.

A switch of 3,687 votes in Hawaii and 5,559 votes in Ohio from Carter to Ford would have resulted in Ford winning the election with 270 electoral votes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1976



As I said I can envision a scenario where the risk of keeping him outweighs the benefit of jettisoning him but we're not there yet. Two likely scenarios are he tries to create civil unrest or start a war.

[John Fante]

38. Ford was one of the most well-respected, experienced, and likeable

members of congress. Pardon aside, he had none of Nixon's stench on him.

Pence could only dream of having Ford's resume. The two aren't comparable at all.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. All that is true

All that is true but the MSM would say he is binding the wounds of the nation while he gives sanctimonious Kumbaya speeches while advancing a far right agenda. It would be Trumpism with a human face.

[exboyfil]

43. The country would have been so much better

off if Ford had not pardoned Nixon and let his Justice department pursue a Spiro Agnew like deal with Nixon.

Without the pardon maybe we would not have seen stuff like the Iran Contra pardons.

Also the preemptive pardon was a horrible precedent - something that should never exist. The charges need to be at least filed and only those charges (or convictions) can be pardoned.

[manor321]

4. Hell no

Trump has a political following. Pence does not. Pence would not call his DOJ corrupt and "run by Democrats". Pence is extremely weak compared to Trump.

[marylandblue]

5. As long as Trump is in charge, he is America's problem

[True Dough]

7. And Europe's problem

And Mexico's problem. And Canada's problem. And NATO's problem.

He's a crisis for much of the free world!

[Frustratedlady]

6. I was going to say we could figure out which crimes Pence committed and get rid of him,

then get rid of Trump by impeachment. However, those that follow Pence aren't any better. I don't want any of them, so we'll just skip that part.

Now, if we impeach Trump we can then indict him as a private citizen...then, jail. That way, he can spend time with his family, most of which would already be incarcerated. Maybe they could work together to plan their big escape...won't get bored that way.

Then, we could finally install Hillary in office as the POTUS who should have been there in the first place.

[bearsfootball516]

8. I'd rather have Pence, although I don't see Trump exiting.

Pence has zero charisma and doesn't have the rabid base that Trump does. He'd be incredibly weak due to association with the Trump administration after he took over and would have a very difficult time getting winning in 2020.

He'd be like 2008 John McCain but without the war record, hero element.

[honest.abe]

9. I disagree.

Trump should not be President.. there are no if, ands or buts about it. He is a dangerous lunatic willing to do anything to keep power. The longer he stays in the WH the higher the possibility he finds someway to subvert the rule of law and get what he wants. The man is a menace and threat to the nation and the world. The sooner he is removed from office the better for all of us.

[lapfog_1]

10. risk / reward

The risk is that the orange idiot Russian agent will somehow fuck up everything in some non-repairable fashion (nuke war, NATO disintegration, economic calamity, environmental catastrophe).

The reward is that in another 2 years we could see a landslide Democratic win, including the Presidency, the House for 20 year, and a super majority in the Senate (and we will then figure out reasons to impeach, convict, and remove all of the federal court judges appointed by the asshole and his traitor party... including any SC appointees).

I vote for risk mitigation... and take my chances with theocratic Pence.

Environmental Catastrophe is at hand right now... as is economic calamity and NATO disintegration.

Pence may not be any better on the environment... but he is more stable than Trump.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

11. It will be much easier to kick Trump out in 2020

than Pence. And the Republicans would rally around Pence and he will be able to get more done in Congress (if Republicans remain in control heaven forbid) and the MSM will breathe a sigh of relief and declare a "return to normalcy". Nope.

[SHRED]

12. NO!

[irresistable]

13. I second that emotion

Pence is the perfect combination of sanctimonious and corrupt, though.

My imagination must not be as good as yours.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. Agree or disagree.

Pence is actually worse than Trump because he knows the difference between right and wrong and doesn't care. The latter doesn't even know the difference.

[John Fante]

41. Worse than Trump?

Tell that to the 2,000 kids who were kidnapped by this administration. Pence is no prize, but I find the idea that he's worse than Trump insulting. Trump is a scourge on this planet.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. Pence would do it with a smile.

He is as uthethered from norms as Trump is, he's just better at obscuring his actions, and couching them in sanctimonious rhetoric.

[John Fante]

48. Yeah, sure.

What hogwash.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. Res ipsa loquitur

Two sources also recalled Trump needling Pence about his views on abortion and homosexuality. During a meeting with a legal scholar, Trump belittled Pence’s determination to overturn Roe v. Wade … When the conversation turned to gay rights, Trump motioned toward Pence and joked, “Don’t ask that guy — he wants to hang them all!”

...


As governor of Indiana, Mr. Pence opposed gay marriage and signed into law a bill that made it legal for businesses to cite religious freedom when refusing service to gay and transgender people, for example a bakery that refused to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding.

As a member of Congress, Mr. Pence voted against employment nondiscrimination protections for gay and transgender people and also voted against the repeal of “don’t ask, don’t tell.”

His opposition to gay rights goes back at least to his first congressional campaign, in 2000, when he opposed same-sex marriage and the nondiscrimination laws that protected LGBT people.

He also argued for public funding of conversion therapy and said federal funding for HIV/AIDS treatment should be renewed only if the government could certify that no money went to “organizations that celebrate and encourage the types of behaviors that facilitate the spreading of the HIV virus,” according to an archived version of his campaign website.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/10/19/mike-pence-hang-gay-people/

Everything that is bad about Trump is bad about Pence. The latter just does a better job of camouflaging it. The former doesn't care.

[John Fante]

61. Pence is a steller homophobe, but his views on race are

nowhere near as despicable as Trump's.

https://www.indianapolismonthly.com/news-opinion/off-the-wall-mike-pence-and-immigration/is

[exboyfil]

46. Except for the tariffs

I think Pence would agree with every policy decision made by Trump to this point.

[Javaman]

16. with the orange asshole we have proto-fascism...

with pence we get the handmaids tale.

hell of a choice.

[EarlG]

17. Odd, isn't it

Every moment he is in office is a national disgrace, but at the same time his refusal to resign (which is what any normal politician would have done by now) may end up flushing an awful lot of other despicable turds out of the system before he's finally done.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. I would argue if Nixon never resigns we never get Reagan.

[Bleacher Creature]

18. I go back and forth on this.

Trump has already done most of the horrible stuff that the "religious" right wants, so the damage he can do would likely be limited IF (and it's a big if) the Democrats can take back the House (and possibly the Senate).

Plus, Pence is an incredibly weak and uninspiring candidate (he was a political dead man walking in Indiana before Trump picked him) and would get slaughtered in 2020.

[uponit7771]

20. People of color can't afford to keep around a person who DIRECTLY harms their children by the 1000s

... in order to send a message.

[John Fante]

47. Thank you!

White privilege is rearing its head right now, sad to say.

Ask someone (like me) with roots in a "shithole" country if they think Pence is worse. You probably won't like the answer.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. Pence is a friend to minorities ?

Two sources also recalled Trump needling Pence about his views on abortion and homosexuality. During a meeting with a legal scholar, Trump belittled Pence’s determination to overturn Roe v. Wade … When the conversation turned to gay rights, Trump motioned toward Pence and joked, “Don’t ask that guy — he wants to hang them all!”

...


As governor of Indiana, Mr. Pence opposed gay marriage and signed into law a bill that made it legal for businesses to cite religious freedom when refusing service to gay and transgender people, for example a bakery that refused to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding.

As a member of Congress, Mr. Pence voted against employment nondiscrimination protections for gay and transgender people and also voted against the repeal of “don’t ask, don’t tell.”

His opposition to gay rights goes back at least to his first congressional campaign, in 2000, when he opposed same-sex marriage and the nondiscrimination laws that protected LGBT people.

He also argued for public funding of conversion therapy and said federal funding for HIV/AIDS treatment should be renewed only if the government could certify that no money went to “organizations that celebrate and encourage the types of behaviors that facilitate the spreading of the HIV virus,” according to an archived version of his campaign website.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/10/19/mike-pence-hang-gay-people/

Everything that is bad about Trump is bad about Pence. The latter just does a better job of camouflaging it. The former doesn't care.

[John Fante]

53. Trump is just as homophobic as Pence. Did you miss the transgender ban?

Plus he's arguably the most openly bigoted POTUS we've ever had. It's easy to say Pence is worse when you're not the target of Trump's racist policies.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. Thank you for agreeing that Pence is as bigoted as Trump.

The only difference is that Pence is better at camouflaging it.

It's easy to say Pence is worse when you're not the target of Trump's racist policies.

My late mom is Jewish. Trump stood with the White Nationalists in Charlottesville who chanted " The Jews will not replace us" and said they were "fine people" . I have skin in the game too, and the ass whuppings I delivered and absorbed for being one of a handful of Jews in a predominately gentile neighborhood.



If you don't believe Trump and Pence are equally morally reprehensible there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion .

[JI7]

59. no, it's TRUMP who seems better at camouflaging it

since people keep claiming pence wil be worse when trump is already doing all ther shit pence would do.

[John Fante]

60. I said Pence LESS bigoted than Trump.

The LGBT community is one group. They're both comparably hateful there. They're both comparably misogynist too, though I would argue Trump, with his history of predatory behavior, is far worse.

In terms of and racial and religious bigotry, the two men aren't in the same area code. Pence actually opposed Trump's Muslim ban initially; Trump wants to kill LEGAL immigration. Trump emboldens the worst of us; Pence wouldn't have this galvanizing effect.

We have statistical proof of the Trump effect:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bigthink.com/brandon-weber/dog-whistles-indeed-twitter-encourages-hate-crimes-study-shows.amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mercurynews.com/2018/07/10/hates-crime-reports-rise-30-percent-in-bay-area-trumps-first-year-in-office/amp/

https://www.splcenter.org/news/2017/11/13/hate-crimes-rise-second-straight-year-anti-muslim-violence-soars-amid-president-trumps

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. We will agree to disagree

Let's say Pence initially opposed Trump's Muslim ban. What does that say about him that he abandoned a moral position in the name of power ?


My opinion is they are both truly awful people whose interests are inimical to minorities be they Jews, Muslims, Hispanics, lgbtq people, et cetera . However I am not convinced it is in our interest to jettison Trump at this moment. The minute he tries to create civil unrest or start a war he should go.

[NurseJackie]

21. Aw, geeze! Seriously?

He's the Republican's problem, not ours.

Aw, geeze! Seriously? You do realize how much damage he's causing, right? He's a danger to our nation and his "being a pinata" is hardly a consolation for the threats he poses. He's EVERYONE'S PROBLEM! He's the ENTIRE WORLD'S problem!

I should add I can envision scenarios where a President Pence is better but we are nowhere near that yet.

I call this a failure of imagination. We've already passed whatever imaginary point you have in mind that's the "line".

All I'm trying to say is the sooner he goes, the better... whether it's by resignation or by impeachment and removal (when we have the votes) he needs to go.

[beachbum bob]

23. I agree keeping an impotent trump is the right move, make gop

Defend him for next 2 years

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. The 1976 election should never have been close but it was.

Imagine if Ford was running with Nixon in the White House . And Carter or any Democratic president would have been given more of a chance than he did

[tman]

24. Be careful what you wish for.

Trump could very well win reelection.

Pence would have no chance to win.

The cult of personality is a powerful thing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Cults by definition are small.

[Aristus]

28. I don't think it would take much effort on the part of Fox News and AM radio

to build a cult of personality around Pence after Trump is gone.

One only has to look at the morally and intellectually debased shovelbrains who kow-tow to Trump, in order to see that. They'll want another idiot to rally around.

[J_William_Ryan]

29. No, Pence would be worse.

Trump needs to be voted out of office, rejected by a majority of the ststes.

[walkingman]

30. Both turn my stomach. Which is worse a lunatic or a bible freak?

[herding cats]

35. I'm conflicted on this.

I agree he's the Republicans problem, and there's no denying he's hurting their party. The longer he's there, the more scandals they keep having drop on their heads. There's no denying their "get behind the president" strategy is harming them right now.

We're nowhere close to him being removed from office yet, and I'm currently taking a wait and see approach. After November I expect the Republicans are going to begin turning on Trump more and more after the reality of his political blowback on them becomes more clear.

One thing I don't expect is for Trump to do the right thing for the Republican Party and resign. Which makes me all the more interested in watching to see how many more of them get taken out by his blowback.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. The sweet spot for Democrats is to say that Mueller should get to finish his job.

I am extremely confident he will deliver the goods and after his string of successful prosecutions he will be believed.

[herding cats]

39. This is true.

I read the approval rating of Mueller's investigation rose by 11 points in the past month. A majority of people want the investigation to continue. That coupled with Trump's defending convicted criminals and threatening to pardon Manafort do nothing but help us.

Just imagine what else Trump might do and say as the pressure increases?

[Soxfan58]

36. If he assumes power

After January he is entitled to run twice more. Thats almost 10 fucking possible yesrs of this homophopic asshole and his first mother.

[Dan]

44. Pence will pardon Trump - so no Pence....

I want Trump to be indicted, face trial, found guilty, end up in prison and forfeiture of all his assets.

I want his criminal children to be indicted, face trial, found guilty, end up in prison and forfeiture of all assets.

I want Paul Ryan and Turtle man to be indicted (for anything) and forced to explain to the American people, how they put party before the nation, explain what knowledge they had of the Russian interference, and why was it important to keep that knowledge in the family.

I want to support Trump's vision of the wrongness of chained migration - and deport Melania's parents after stripping them of their citizenship.

I want validation that Melania migrated to the U.S. legally, and if not, ship her home.

I want the GOP to lose over a 100 seats in the 2018 election.

and finally, I would like that churches that get involved in politics should have the privilege of paying taxes and those that donate to those churches cannot deduct those donations.

After that, I'm good.

[Quemado]

45. Mixed feelings

In favor of your idea: Having Trump in office until 2020 as a pinata is a tantalizing concept.

Against your idea: Having Trump in office until 2020 is problematic because of his abuses of power, i.e. executive orders, Cabinet members, pardons, etc.

[Goodheart]

52. Beginning to agree.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

54. Should be law -- if you get impeached you HAVE to take #2

[jpljr77]

56. No. I used to think this. I told myself, "Pence is actually competent and could do more damage."

Boy, was I wrong. I mean, I'm sure Pence is competent enough to be president, but there is literally no way he could do more damage than the thrice-married Manhattan billionaire unindicted co-conspirator presently in office.

Besides, in any scenario under which Pence actually becomes president, he will be cowed and neutered, knowing his boss was just drummed out of office and (hopefully) faced with an opposition party Congress. He'd be a flaccid lump of gee wiz for 2 years, and nothing more.

[bigtree]

57. jesus

...we're the pinata.

[JI7]

58. FUCK NO. Trump has been destroying rights for women and minorities

and those are the areas people claim pence would be worse at.

but the reality is there is no difference.

the fact people don't know he is destroying the communities is a problem.

with Pence maybe people will actually pay attention to what is going on behind the tweets and rallies and other shit.