Yeah, but why are WE honoring John McCain?

[SpicyBoi]

I am confused. I see us desperately trying to police other people's opinions of a guy I hated. While I have respect for the family of John McCain going through a tough time, why do we care what other people think of the guy?

Let's not forget the following:

McCain voted against the creation of Martin Luther King Jr. Day
McCain has been quoted using a racial slur in reference to Vietnamese people.
In 2013, McCain made a racist joke about Iran's former president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
During his 2008 run for president, McCain made an Islamophobic comment at a town hall event.
McCain gave a speech impugning Republican senators for their dubious process in getting their health care bill to a vote — and then voted for the overhaul.

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/5-problematic-things-senator-john-mccain-has-done-during-his-40-year-career-in-politics

Am I wrong to think that McCain deserves the Antonin Scalia treatment from us instead of the tongue-bath he got in the media?

[irresistable]

1. Republicans get extra credit for occasional decency.

[Boxerfan]

2. Because we are better than that-simple.

And we should mourn the loss of civility. In that it once was at least a PART of negotiations with fellow Americans on the course of politics.

Delete your post is the wise move but your decision if you want to be small about this.

[SpicyBoi]

7. Sorry, I will not self-delete

Maybe you should delete your account

[Shemp Howard]

99. "Because we are better than that" - yes!

"And we should mourn the loss of civility."

Very true! At one time, people paused when a famous person passed away. And they tried to say something good about that that person. And if they couldn't find anything good to say, they said nothing.

There is an exception to that, of course. The exception is that if the person was evil (Hitler, Stalin, etc.). But John McCain was not evil. He was wrong about almost everything. But he was not deliberately, truly evil.

In the old days, his opponents would have been civil. They would have said nothing when he passed. But as you said, Boxerfan, that civility is gone. Now people jump on the opportunity to list all the deceased person's faults.

[Demit]

113. Civility?

Like when he called his wife Cindy the c-word in public?
Like when he made a “joke” about why Chelsea Clinton was ugly?
Like when he sang Bomb Bomb Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran?

That was McCain's kind of civility.

[john657]

126. And you've never done idiotic things in your life? N/T

[Demit]

129. I've never been a U.S. Senator

with all the seriousness & responsibility that entails. And, for just one example, I know I wouldn't ridicule the looks of the president's teenage daughter, because I would instinctively know that was wrong.

[john657]

133. You've never ridiculed the looks of anyone?

i find that hard to believe.

[Demit]

141. Again, U.S. Senator. Teenage girl. Who never did anything to him. In public.

His wife. Called her a trollop and a cunt. In public.

That's not civility.

[john657]

143. We all make mistakes.

I, for one, will not denigrate, nor slander a fellow Vietnam Veteran, especially one that went through what Sen. McCain went through for 5-1/2 years.

[Demit]

148. Sure, those things were "mistakes." What do you suppose he meant to say

about his wife, and a teenage girl, that somehow came out wrong?

So for you, it's okay to denigrate women and young girls if you're a Vietnam vet?

Ugh.

[john657]

149. I'll kindly ask you to not put words in my mouth.

I never said it was ok, I said we all make mistakes, except, apparently, you.

What I said was that I, meaning me, will not slander or denigrate a fellow Vietnam Vet, especially what Sen. McCain endured at the hands of the NVA.

[pangaia]

153. So you are saying that you will not speak ill of someone because he was a 'fellow' Vietnam Vet?

Do I have that right?

[john657]

154. Unless they are/were criminals,

then no, I won't.

Sen. McCain was none of that.

[pangaia]

156. In that case...

IF either you, OR Senator McCain, OR both of you were not Vietnam Vets, would you then feel more open to criticize him?

[john657]

160. Absolutely!!!!

I disagreed with 90% of his policies, and I will criticize him for that, but I won't slander of denigrate him.

This man has earned the respect due him, IMO, for what he went through in the Hanoi Hilton.

[Eliot Rosewater]

201. It's not even about John, really. Well it is in that he was

A. a bonafide hero when he refused to accept special treatment while a POW

B. my praise of him is one of scale, I am comparing him to the current GOP...I could spend hours talking about what I didnt like about him, but his opposition to rump and rump's agenda of hate is ALL I need to give him the thumbs up

[john657]

231. Yup, there's that too.

[secondwind]

188. Gosh, enough already.

[Demit]

193. Why? Inconvenient facts harshing your buzz?

[secondwind]

187. Hear, hear. +1,000%

[LisaM]

3. I've been fighting these same feelings, and I have a few different thoughts.

First, many of his colleagues - who I do like - enjoyed working with him. So there's that. Next, I think that people are reaching for an ideal, what they think he represents, rather than what he actually was (to add to your list, he went all out on campaign finance reform, yet voted for Clarence Thomas, John Roberts, and Samuel Alito, all of whom championed Citizens United and undid any present chance of getting money out of politics at all). McCain is definitely a puzzle to me.

But I have to balance all of my own instincts by realizing that to a lot of people, he represents what's best in American political life, and if his death contributes to some civility for a period of time, then so be it.

[SpicyBoi]

4. Don't sell out your own opinions for other people

There's a reason why you're uncomfortable with all the McCain praise.

[hlthe2b]

5. Yes (you are wrong IMO). Most of us are generally able to see the complexities of individuals

and nowhere is that more to the point than John McCain. I disagreed with him-- as has everyone here throughout his career, but likewise respected that he was an honorable foe, capable of admitting his mistakes, capable of working with those whom he had long disagreements, and who served our country at considerable sacrifice. If you can't see that, I can't help you, but I'd surely encourage you to read more about him. BTW, some of what is cited in quite a few posts here recently-- in terms of his misdeeds-- have been debunked by Snopes.com

He's not my political hero, but deserving of respect, nonetheless. And, frankly to suggest otherwise, seems to put one in close alignment to Trump's camp.

In the words of F. Scott Fitzgerald:

“The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.”

[SpicyBoi]

10. Did you want to bomb Iran?

"Bomb Iran" - John McCain

[hlthe2b]

14. Apparently, you refuse to read my full post, given your question which is

evidence that you did not read what I wrote at all (or seemingly merely wish to assert fallacious arguments that I never made).

[at140]

57. McCain was for every war during his time in senate

There is nothing I dislike more than starting wars in foreign countries.

[hlthe2b]

62. You likewise apparently did not read my post as nowhere did I suggest that to be point of agreement

between me and nearly all DUers WITH McCain.

I can respect those with which I disagree, like Obama, for instance, who I deeply respect but vehemently disagreed with on several of his policies in Afghanistan and Iraq, including use of military force.

Do you honestly think you are alone in disliking war? Sort of like saying you are alone in revering peace. Virtually no one here is going to disagree on that score.

No one here is supporting McCain for election. Just for a respectful burial. On that I'll take my example from Barack Obama who will be one of only two former Presidents to eulogize.

[at140]

96. I have bitter memories from wars

In my late 70's now, nothing is worse than memories of dear friends killed on foreign lands.
Sorry, just will never like war mongers. Only war which was justified was WWII because our homeland was attacked at Pearl Harbor.

[AncientGeezer]

111. The World Trade Center Blds ring a bell?

[shanny]

138. Did some country do that?

If not, why did we attack various and sundry countries?

If any country attacked us, it was Saudi Arabia--a judgment I make solely on the nationality of the majority of attackers. Did we attack Saudi Arabia? I forget.

[at140]

170. +10

[at140]

169. You mean all those Saudi people flying planes?

And then we began the longest war in history in Afghanistan which is still on-going & Taliban is expanding territory.

Sorry...Afghan war is a unmitigated disaster in terms of blood spilled and treasure spent.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

105. McCain and his fellow warmongers have blood on their hands... plain and simple.

[pangaia]

158. As, usually is the case, I agree with you.

The whole discussion is about something like, at what level are we talking?
What are the parameters? And I feel you have gone right to the meat. Or at least one of the cuts of meat.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

179. True. I feel like the trap some here are falling into is the old adage:

the enemy of my enemy is my friend... personally, I don't see the logic in that and, certainly, doesn't apply in McCain's case.

[CentralMass]

180. I voted for Hillary in 2008 and in the last general election. Did she ever meet a war she didn't

like ?

[Bradshaw3]

25. Well said

[tammywammy]

32. +1 n/t

[NCTraveler]

39. I find very little about the man to be complex.

Just the opposite.

I don’t think that’s a knock on him. Some of the best people I know keep things in perspective. Arrive at their thoughts with little complexity and great consistence.

[hlthe2b]

69. It is WE who need to be able to hold complex thought processes. Not all is black & white despite

what the RW tells us.

[NCTraveler]

73. That is how I can to my opinion about McCain.

He helped to cause a lot of damage to our country.

[hlthe2b]

78. He also did some good. Ask John Kerry, a long term foe, but one who came to work and respect

McCain despite the Vietnam chasm. It takes a mature person of intergrity to be able to grow in ones opinions over time.

He was our determined foe, but he was not without honor.

To me, to fail to see that, would make me what I most hate on the "right".

[NCTraveler]

90. My determined foe as well.

I’m not blinded by “honor”. His honorable intentions to defund planned parenthood. His honorably trying to end the ACA with shitty propaganda telling everyone that his buddies holding your money is a great way to do it. His lifetime of honorably transferring large sums to the top. His honorable love for wanting stronger criminal sentences across the board.

The honor is strong with that one.

[hlthe2b]

93. To see the measure of a man whose career and service stretched over 60 years, you need to look at

much more than that. I could probably find that many (numerical) issues with which I disagreed with Pres. Obama and I surely could Former President Clinton. I still respect them.

And for those who purposely ignore his service to country and his long fight against torture as a result should really rethink, IMO.

[pangaia]

159. I rarely think of politicians as 'serving.'

And I do not see what his torture experience has to do with the issue.

[john657]

162. hlthe2bdidn't say anything about the torture he endured at the hands of the NVA,

it was directed to his vehement opposition to torture.

[hlthe2b]

163. Are you kidding me? You don't find his military service, imprisonment & torture as POW as SERVICE?

Then there is not a damned thing I can say to you except I find that disheartening. Perhaps you are too young to remember when Fathers, Uncles, Grandfathers all served in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, but I am not. To discount his service is just disgusting to me.

The issue isn't whether you'd vote for him or agree with him. None of us did. None of us would. It is whether or not we are appreciative of sacrifice and honor among those with whom we politically disagree--enough to honor their death. I find some of the comments toward McCain nearly identical to what is being posted on RW pro-Trump websites. The similarities are as startling to me.. and depressing.

[pangaia]

167. I am 74.

And by 'serving" I do not refer to his service in the military.

I just do not necessarily see all politicians as 'serving.'

[hlthe2b]

166. You really know little of his record, do you? He was the most vocal (& effective)opponent to torture

in the Senate. Not only because of his own experience but because he knew it doesn't work and he took on GWBush* to get this practice stopped. He joined many Dems in opposing the current CIA Director, Gena Haspel, because of her involvement in covering it up during BushII.

I hope to hell others are kinder when they judge your life in its totality.

[pangaia]

168. I know of his opposition to torture.

It is very commendable that he was against torture. How anybody could be FOR torture is mind boggling to me.
I have never been tortured and even I know it is wrong.

[flotsam]

130. Nonsense

As shown by the thumbs down seen across the world.

[LAS14]

66. Well said. We need more nuanced thinking like this among progressives. nt

[MuseRider]

81. This is a very good answer and one I totally agree with.

NOBODY, even my heros are 100%. We seem to lack the emotional maturity here to be able to see that.

[ObamaKerryDem]

82. This. (Thank you!)

[pangaia]

155. Your Fitzgerald quote is one I have always come back to.

And, yet, I am not sure it applies to Senator McCain.

[MadDAsHell]

6. Because being for something Trump is against is the highest priority. nt

[SpicyBoi]

12. It appears that's the case

[leftstreet]

150. +1

[A-Schwarzenegger]

186. pretty much

[SammyWinstonJack]

190. It would seem so.

[samnsara]

8. ..because as flawed as he was he was the GOP was ever gonna be...now hes gone..

[mahatmakanejeeves]

9. Decency. NT

[SpicyBoi]

13. You think it's "decent" to make someone pretend they respect a guy they dislike?

Weird.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

18. You can do what you want. It's a free country. NT

[hlthe2b]

21. I think you will find many who share your unrelenting black and white views/disdain for McCain

on the RW--as ironic as that might seem before Trump. Most of us here can balance our vehement disagreement with many or even most of his positions, with the fact that he likewise held some positions with which we did agree and showed personal courage, integrity and sacrifice worth honoring during the long course of his life.

[SpicyBoi]

23. So how would I know which Republicans to like/dislike

When they're dead?

What rule do you follow?

[hlthe2b]

27. I educate myself on the full measure of the person, not merely sound byte or single incident

perceptions as seems the rule with many nowadays.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

106. ALL Rethugs are to be despised... alive or dead.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

116. Lincoln ? Eisenhower ? Earl Warren ? Teddy Roosevelt ?

[mobeau69]

227. I like the dead ones a little more.

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

11. Because it's right

Death can be devastating to family and friends you can debate a politicians views but in death honor the accomplishments and what this person meant to his family and friends.

[cornball 24]

42. Very well stated! Thank you for your wisdom.

[mythology]

15. Because not all of us are petty

Because not agreeing with someone doesn't mean you can't respect them. I'm sorry you're so filled with hate that you can't see past it.

[JCanete]

29. but actions actually have real-world affects. its not simply disagreeing with McCain, its

looking at his rhetoric and votes in the past that have actually harmed. Now, as a politician that really does go with the territory. Usually politicians choose winners and losers to some extent so some people will get hurt. But if you believe McCain was a warmonger and quick to beat that drum, you have every right to question honoring him. That isn't petty.

That said, I don't think we need to demonize him either, nor assume that for the most part, he wasn't motivated by trying to do the right thing, but then too many times, it seemed like he knew what the right thing was and still caved, so its not all just a matter of differing ideologies.

[meadowlander]

208. You have the rest of your life to disagree with his policies and rhetoric

and to point out his personal and professional failings.

The world's not going to end because you took a few days while his corpse was still cooling off to be quiet and respect the right of his family, friends and colleagues to grieve on the best part of his life.

[zipplewrath]

16. Not Scalia

I've been a little bit uncomfortable with SOME of the praise. But he wouldn't deserve the Scalia treatment. He was a deeply flawed individual and wrong on many issues. He also really wasn't nearly as egotistical as many politicians, especially Senators can be. And unlike so many, he could easily and willingly tell you many of the mistakes he had made over they years, both personally and professionally. Personally I'm fairly willing to let him "go peacefully into the light".

[SpicyBoi]

17. Re: Not Scalia

Personally I'm fairly willing to let him "go peacefully into the light".

I agree with this opinion, which makes it curious that we're trying to police Trump's opinion of the guy. LET THE REPUBLICANS INFIGHT!

[Vinca]

19. At this point I don't care if he was Lucifer himself. He's pissing Dear Leader off royally from

the grave and that buys him some respect in my book. And he did save Obamacare from total destruction.

[SpicyBoi]

20. At least this opinion makes sense to me

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I report. You decide.

Am I wrong to think that McCain deserves the Antonin Scalia treatment from us instead of the tongue-bath he got in the media?

[SpicyBoi]

26. Is Barack Obama an Arab?

"No he's a good family man."

So I guess Arabs can't be good family men.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. You are the first person to put that spin on it, Spici.

If you feel so strongly about it you can get a group of like minded people to protest his funeral.

[SpicyBoi]

30. Teen Vogue article

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/5-problematic-things-senator-john-mccain-has-done-during-his-40-year-career-in-politics

Pretty good summary of McCain's problematic behavior over the years.

[John Fante]

52. In a career as long as McCain's, those are slim pickings.

Especially with the regards to the rebuke of the old lady. I doubt his intent was to imply that Arabs can't be decent people. He was simply defending Obama and it came out funny.

[SpicyBoi]

215. Ben Affleck made the same point...

On Real Time with Bill Maher. I agree with him.

[JCanete]

33. No that's not the first person who's put that spin on it. Though to be fair, it may not have been

intended, it is an unfortunate phrasing. I think McCain was smarter than to mean that, but then he also thought it was amusing to say something like "how does that song go....bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran"....so...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. If he would have flat out said he's not an Arab he would have implied there's something...

If he would have flat out said he's not an Arab he would have implied there's something wrong with being an Arab. It's the same reasoning that Richard Gere uses when he refuse to deny he's gay. If he denies it he implies there's something wrong with being gay.

At the end of the day he defended President Obama, at some political cost.

[BlueStater]

54. She said "Arab", but let's face it. What that deranged old kook really meant was "terrorist".

That's what we all knew she meant and that's what McCain knew as well.

[OilemFirchen]

55. Huh. First time I've heard it.

But I don't read Teen Vogue.

[emulatorloo]

83. Sounds a lot like some shitty sub at reddit

[OilemFirchen]

89. Yeah. Another place I don't visit.

I'm so unhip!

[emulatorloo]

98. No, you're smart. It is a cesspool.

[jberryhill]

87. It was "spun" that way at the time

I'm not sure how much "spin" is required to pick up on Obama being a "good family man" and not an "Arab".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. I doubt John McCain meant to imply being an "Arab" and a "good family man" are mutually exclusive.

He also prevented Sarah Palin from playing the race card by invoking Reverend Wright on the campaign trail. John McCain was one of the few heroes the modern GOP had but not one it deserved.

[DrDan]

53. he responded to the spirit of her comment - everybody recognizes that and respects the man for

for having the guts to speak up . . . and in a polite manner.

[AncientGeezer]

117. That's a Highly redacted version of what McCain said....can you admit that?

It's on video...

[JI7]

119. is there something wrong with being born in Kenya ?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

132. You are choosing a tendentious backward interpretation just to be tendentious

You are flat out wrong.

McCain was reacting the woman's negativity, to HER statement that Obama was untrustworthy. All McCain is saying is that Obama is trustworthy and he is buttressing it with the statement about being a good family man. Then and only then does he react to her accusation of being an Arab. He is simply knocking down her points 1-2.

McCain passed his wireless microphone to one woman who said, "I can't trust Obama. I have read about him and he's not, he's not uh — he's an Arab. He's not — " before McCain retook the microphone and replied:

"No, ma'am. He's a decent family man [and] citizen that I just happen to have disagreements with on fundamental issues and that's what this campaign's all about. He's not [an Arab]."

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

24. I know. As someone said at a science fiction thing I was at this weekend,

you're not supposed to speak ill of the dead but some of them might deserve it. She was referencing Harlan Ellison who was famously awful to a lot of people.

John McCain was an adulterer, and in many ways fundamentally dishonest. I was living in Phoenix when he moved out of his somewhat downscale Congressional District a good six months before he announced that he was running for the Senate, so it no longer mattered where in the state he lived. Oh, and during one of his presidential runs he couldn't even recall exactly how many homes he owned.

He voted against Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan as Supreme Court Justices. Since he did vote in favor of Ruth Bader Ginsberg I hesitate to simply ascribe the two nay votes to simple misogyny, but still.

He originally voted against the ACA.

Back in the early 2000's there was a lot of nonsense out there about McCain becoming a Democrat and then being a VP candidate as a Dem. That was often repeated here by people who didn't look past the absurd claims of his being a "maverick", which apparently meant at that time someone who sometimes didn't go along with everything the Republican leadership wanted. As Stephen Colbert pointed out at the White House Correspondents dinner, McCain was probably using his salad fork as his dinner fork: that's what kind of a maverick he was.

There are lots of other such things that, at least for me, keep him completely out of the hero category.

[OilemFirchen]

64. Harlan Ellison?

A wonderful man with the good sense of acerbity when appropriate. My generation's Dorothy Parker.

Your friend has fallen victim to the Puritanism of the Mob. There's a good bit of that about.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

152. No. Harlan was capable of being a truly miserable human being.

There's the time he groped Connie Willis. There's his locking up stories for Dangerous Visions 3 that he then never published and refused to release back to the authors so they could sell them elsewhere. And I don't think he paid for them ahead of time. There are his many lawsuits.

He was NOT acerbic in the tradition of Dorothy Parker.

Someone else (a man. . . hmm) had a nice story to tell about Ellison, and it was not in response to the negative one, but simply a casual mention in a different session.

A few years ago I was in the Taos Toolbox, a fabulous writing workshop taught by Walter Jon Williams and Nancy Kress. Absolutely amazing workshop and if you're interested in writing science fiction I highly recommend it. Anyway, in the last day or two one of the things Walter said was that there are three things that will make your career as a writer: be good, be fast, be easy to work with. Any two of the three, he added, will do the trick. And that's why, he further elaborated, Harlan Ellison can no longer get published.

I gather that in the earlier years of his professional life, Harlan was generally okay, although occasionally difficult. It's my distinct impression that the difficulty level rose a lot over the years. And, come to think of it, he seems to have been especially difficult to women. Make that a complete and total asshole. See again the groping of Connie Willis. She should have decked him, but she's a genuinely nice person.

[mainer]

31. Because he stood against torture, despite GOP pressure

He was not perfect, but he was the best the GOP had.

[rzemanfl]

34. I was raised not to speak ill of the dead. Maybe you were raised further to the East.

I have to wash socks. BBL.

[stonecutter357]

35. Disgusting OP !

[SpicyBoi]

44. Thanks for providing nothing to the conversation.

I really appreciate that

[NCTraveler]

36. I agree with you.

There are times I have found myself on the opposite side of most DU’ers and in such a case I let my views be know and move along.

I think how he is being remembered here to be a bit sickening. I can have great respect for his military career, his attempt at being a good person, and also recognize the damage he has done. He has votes on the record in favor of some of the most horrific legislation of our lifetime. That’s not hyperbole. More people die or live in poverty because of conservatives like MCCain.

[SpicyBoi]

40. Thank you

[LAS14]

70. Apparently you agree with most of the posters who want to point to the good in his life.

" I can have great respect for his military career, his attempt at being a good person,"

[NCTraveler]

77. What does my full sentence say?

His military career is about personal respect. Very few were helped. I do think he tried to be good, when he wasn’t trying to be an ass. Overall, there is nothing mixed about his political career. Nothing short or a conservative Republican shit show.

[shanny]

38. I agree completely and I don't get it.

The man was deeply flawed, at best. We only like him at all because he hated Rump ...and how much of that was due to the fact that Rump did what he couldn't, and disparaged him in the process?

The fact is McCain was a f@ck-up at Annapolis and didn't get bounced because of his family. He was a sub-standard pilot who kept his wings because of his family. He got shot down over Hanoi because his ambition outweighed his obedience to orders. He was tortured...but not after the North Vietmamese "discovered" who he was. He said himself that his survival depended on who he was. He did turn down early release...but so did all but 12 of the other POWs. And he would have had to denounce the US and declare himself a war criminal to get it. It would have mortified his family (that so distinguished family) and ended his career.

His record in government speaks for itself: in most cases he talked mavericky and voted the party line.

Do I hate the man? No, now that he's gone: there's no point. R.I.P.

Will I call him a hero, or lionize him? No, I will not.

[SpicyBoi]

41. Thank you

[Demit]

147. I SO agree. You've cut thru the sentimentality & the treacle to note some simple facts.

[pansypoo53219]

43. i am glad he was not president, but he was anti torture + not all turd.

[babylonsister]

59. Anti-torture until he wasn't...

But when it came time to fight for actual legislation to force the Bush administration’s hand and ban the use of these methods once and for all, McCain was far less courageous. Rather than stick to his principles, he sold them out for politics — and effectively allowed the Bush administration to continue torturing people, and to get away with it scot-free.

Here’s the story of how McCain, one of the most vocal opponents of torture, capitulated for political gain right when his voice was needed the most — and why his later attempts to atone for his sins was too little, too late.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/8/25/17778146/john-mccain-dies-torture-legacy-waterboarding-enhanced-interrogation-cia

Sen. John McCain’s complicated moral legacy on torture

[pansypoo53219]

137. sadly moron W got awayw/ it cause 9/11.

[SpicyBoi]

45. "He's our hero now"

Yes, this was literally a post on DU.

The guy who didn't want MLK day.

Unreal.

[oberliner]

47. He also called Chelsea Clinton ugly when she was in high school

And made a "joke" about her father being Janet Reno.

[melman]

91. Also the guy who said this

Unreal is right.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

183. No... un-FUCKIN-real!! It's like Bizarre World!!

[guillaumeb]

46. And when McCain confronted the woman at a candidate event,

he did not say that being a Muslim is a good thing, he simply said that President Obama was a good man. McCain could have confronted the obvious Islamophobia behind the woman's remark, but he did not.

[SpicyBoi]

48. Highly problematic

Thanks for your post.

[guillaumeb]

49. Welcome to DU,

and thank you for your own original post.

[SpicyBoi]

65. I appreciate you reading it and engaging

Not telling me to self-delete. Why should I censor my opinion?

[guillaumeb]

84. It was a valid statement,

and supportable, but the current mood is different. We can sympathize with the family, but that does not mean we should uncritically forget actual history.

[DrDan]

58. no it is not . . . not for the vast majority

[AncientGeezer]

121. Actually he did...he said no ma'am...no ma'am...43 sec's into the video

[flotsam]

50. What a shock

that a guy held captive 5 years and tortured and held for 3 years in solitary and denied medical care which left him crippled for the balance of his life, What a shock he would use a denigrating term for his captors. I see no mention in your fanboy magazine that McCain along with John Kerry were the two guys who pushed renewed diplomatic recognition for Vietnam...

[SpicyBoi]

60. Seriously?

You're saying his racism was justified.

I don't agree with you. Racism is never justified.

[flotsam]

72. You must be young

48 years after spending a year in combat and at the Siege Of Firebase Ripcord (look it up) my brother has finally occasionally started using the term "Vietnamese" again. Less than 10 years ago I still had friends who lost family in WW2 referring to Krauts and Japs and they carried those terms into their graves. The Vietnamese government have sent condolences to his family, so how do you think they balance his words against his actions. Why do you presume to be more outraged than his "Victims"???

[john657]

131. Maybe not justified,

but try to understand those of us that were there, why we used racist terms to describe the NVA and the VC, the VC especially, who where much more cruel than the NVA.

[Hekate]

171. This, flotsam

[MrScorpio]

51. As a Republican, McCain was our adversary, there's no questioning this fact...

However, there's no question, that despite whatever political differences we had with him, there's no doubt that he served his country above all else.

That's integrity.

We're paying tribute to his integrity of service, in spite of the fact that he was our adversary.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. Edgy

[SpicyBoi]

61. Not trying to be edgy

I joined the board to support Democrats. John McCain is not a Democrat.

[John Fante]

67. This purity shit doesn't surprise me.

I've seen FDR get trashed around here.

McCain was a good man. Not perfect (by his own admission), but honorable nonetheless. I'm not going to shit on everyone who isn't 100% like me.

[emulatorloo]

88. The edgyist of edgelords. Did I get confused and log into Reddit rather than DU?

[Texasgal]

172. +100000

Yup.

So predictable.

[LAS14]

63. We are honoring him because he demonstrated how people can seriously....

... disagree without demonizing each other.

[beachbum bob]

68. Whatever words McCain may or may not spoke is dwarf by his service to

his country and the sacrifice he made...no way compares to Scalia and the effect of his rulings on Americans.

McCain is a hero,. Get over the small crap.

[SpicyBoi]

71. Advocating for every major war

Is not "small crap"

[LAS14]

74. I think we're honoring him because his good qualities...

... are so diametrically opposed to the swamp that is politics today. For sure many/most of his political opinions were wrong, but the honoring focuses on integrity, willingness to admit mistakes, respect for people who disagree with him, willingness to work across the aisle.

We need to restore the concept of a loyal opposition.

[HopeAgain]

76. Two words

Keating Five. McCain talked a good talk when it came to integrity though...

[HopeAgain]

75. Because the bar has been set so low these days.

Soon we will be celebrating anyone who didn't eat their young...

[Loki Liesmith]

79. Using a racial slur against the citizens

Of the country that tortured him for several years? Yeah I’m inclined to give him a pass for that especially given his later life.

[Loki Liesmith]

80. I wouldn't piss on a copy of teen vogue

If it was on fire in the desert.

[SpicyBoi]

86. Relevant

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10028358682

[Armymedic88]

85. Because

As prior service I stand by my fellow veterans especially those who went than than I. He stood on his principles, wether I agreed with him or not I value that in elected officials. So you can feel your way, but as a veteran I feel you diminished his experiences while in Vietnam.

[VOX]

92. Garbage thread says more about the OP than McCain...

Low-post-count OP running up and down the thread, thanking those few who agree, and being impolite and short with those who don’t. Like we’ve never seen this behavior before.

134 posts over a two-year period. Doesn’t appear too committed to DU.

No thank you.

[SpicyBoi]

97. Okay

Continue hyping Republicans just because they dislike Trump.

[VOX]

104. ANYONE who fights Trump and what he stands for...

Should be “hyped.” The naming rights to reality are in question. Our democracy is in deep, deep trouble.

And with Republicans currently holding all three branches of government, and some 30-odd state governments top-to-bottom, even hardcore Democrats realize that help is needed from anyone who will pitch in to fight this beast.

[NanceGreggs]

107. And that's what you think this is all about?

[DrDan]

112. I have read many reasons to respect this man . . . and have yet to read this one

but continue to speak for others

[bronxiteforever]

101. +1

[VOX]

127. Merci. It's the least I could do.

[Tipperary]

109. Thanks for this. Spot on.

[VOX]

122. You got it. There will likely be more of these...

As the fall election draws closer. The old divide ‘em up and sow discord bit.

[shanny]

175. I'm confused. Are we worried about dividing Democrats

from Republicans? Quel horror.

[still_one]

94. and McCain acknowledged those racist comments, and apologized. Doesn't exonerate it, but he did

recognize it was wrong, and no I do not think it was just for political reasons.

He helped save the ACA, which will probably be over thrown unless we win the Senate.

He Worked with Russ Feingold and Ted Kennedy, and both Ted Kennedy and McCain were very good friends, though ideologically they disagreed on almost everything.


So you want to know why?


Because while on most issues most of us disagreed with him, there were some things where he did work in a bipartisan fashion.


That is more than can be said about most of the assholes in the republican party today

[bronxiteforever]

102. +1

[VOX]

115. Well stated.

Most everyone here on DU is the 180-degree ideological opposite of McCain.

But as you state, McCain himself did much bipartisan work for a greater good.

If all Republicans today were like McCain, Trump might not have even been a candidate; if somehow he were, and he got elected, a sane Republican Party would have thrown 46 out on his ass by now, and would be breathing fire at Putin while shoring up and protecting our democratic elections.

[grantcart]

100. For three specific reasons that dwarf yours

1) He risked his life for his fellow POWs

He didn't simply pass on an offer to jump to the head of the swap line, he did it at a time when he was in very bad health and most of the fellow prisoners thought he was going to die. The American POWs were deeply divided about the war and all the things that divide Americans, religion, politics and so on. The North Vietnamese worked hard at dividing them including preferential treatment for those who were against the bombing and so on. McCain's sacrifice given that he might not out live it inspired all of the POWs and helped inspire unity.

2) He provided the only voice that allowed for re establishment of normal relations with Vietnam.

He cut the standing under the right wing when Clinton established relations. It would still take 20 years to establish full and complete relations under President Obama. Without McCain's blessing nothing could have been done.

3) John McCain is clearly not a racist. When asked what one of his biggest political regrets was, he openly admitted that he missed a big opportunity in not commenting on the Confederate emblem in the South Carolina flag during the primary and it has remained one of his greatest regrets. Carl Rove flooded SC with robo calls suggesting that Bridget McCain (rescued while she was dying in Bangladesh) was a love child that McCain had with an African American.




But more than that McCain has a cross racial family and has been a great father, by all accounts to all of his children from both marriages:

This picture shows both the daughter from Bangladesh that he raised as an infant and his African American Daughter in Law.



His son publicly attacked the racists who criticized Old Navy for using multi racial families in their ads

https://www.cnn.com/2016/05/03/politics/old-navy-interracial-ad-jack-mccain/index.html

More details on the above here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211046181

After President Obama delivers his common sense and wise eulogy on why HE honors him I look forward to your rebuttal.

But I realize that a lot of DUers have made more substantial contributions to the country than Senator McCain so you are free to degregate h

[SpicyBoi]

103. I'll go ahead and remember him helping spread the justification for the Iraq War

That seems like a pretty big mistake

[john657]

136. Several Democrats voted for the war also,

are yolu going to hate them also?

[shanny]

176. Well, I am.

I knew it was a bogus cause and a bad, BAD idea--why didn't they? "No one could have imagined...."? A million dead and a region in flames with no end in sight. That's what they ALL have to answer for.

[cvoogt]

182. yes.

It was a wrong decision then, and it was obvious at the time.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

184. Huge... and unforgivable.

[Tipperary]

110. Glad you posted this. Bet the op is not even aware of it.

I think I will trash this thread now.

[VOX]

118. You've got class, grantcart. Thank you for this thoughtful post.

[DesertRat]

174. Well said

[Tipperary]

108. No one is telling anyone to honor McCain. Sounds like you are trying to tell folks what not to do.

‘Sup with that?

You do not like the man; go trash those threads that respect him. And do not tell those of us who do respect him, whom we can or cannot honor. Smh.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

114. Agenda driven thread, perhaps ?

[revmclaren]

120. Hit the nail on the head.

Bookmarking and screen saving thread for future reference.



Only! 2018 - 2020.

[VOX]

125. Sowing discord. Dividing us against ourselves.

Now who in the heck would do something like that?
🇷🇺

[SpicyBoi]

196. I'm talking about my dislike for McCain

How does that divide Democrats? It actually united us in 2008.

[Claritie Pixie]

123. YOU have chosen to not honor him. I have the right to do so.

Don’t demand WE do something just because you don’t like it.

[john657]

124. Because Sen. John McCain served his country honorably

and I will not degrade or slander a fellow Vietnam Veteran, he also did some good things while in the Senate.

[onecaliberal]

128. Oy! Trash thread.

[erpowers]

134. I Do Not Want The Russell Building Renamed For Him

Last edited Mon Aug 27, 2018, 08:28 PM - Edit history (2)

His voting against the creation of Martin Luther King Jr. Day is the reason I do not support renaming the Russell Building after John McCain. I have felt similar to what the author of this piece wrote. For me I guess it was thinking that some of the same people who are giving high praise to Senator McCain were some of the same people who were criticizing him a few weeks and years ago.

[JI7]

139. he said he was wrong about that. meanwhile the building is currently named after a segregationist

[erpowers]

145. Change It to Someone Else

They can change the name without renaming it after John McCain. They have many options.

[JI7]

146. not as many good ones as mccain

[erpowers]

177. Barack Obama?

Barack Obama is not perfect, but he might be a better option than John McCain. Then there is Barbara Jordan. Yes, I understand some on the right would oppose the building being named after her, but I still think she is a better choice. There are a few other choices.

[JI7]

178. obama wasn't senator that long

[Skidmore]

140. I suppose it is preferable to

leave it the same. Richard Russell Jr was a pre Southern Strategy Dixiecrat who stood against civil rights. Yeah, that's preferable.

[erpowers]

144. Rename It After Someone Else

There are numerous people that the could rename the building after. Change the name, but not after John McCain.

[DrDan]

191. I think this is a GREAT idea - keep his name in trump's view for the rest of his time in office

[Bernardo de La Paz]

135. Just how did you arrive at that TeenVogue link? What was your search term or did

... or did someone in your cubicle farm give it to you to pass on to us?

[SpicyBoi]

197. I searched "John McCain" and it came up

Read the article and agreed. You know, normally how people find articles.

[JI7]

142. Does Obama deserve the Scalia treatment ? does Hillary ? how about Ted Kennedy ?

becsuse one could make up a list of negatives on any one of them as you did with mccain.

[BootinUp]

151. Because we fight for democracy, like he did. Nt

[doc03]

157. Are you aware of what he went through

while held captive in Vietnam?

[moriah]

161. A couple of reasons.

1) As Republicans go, he occasionally showed decency rarely seen. It wasn't popular in his party to stand up against fancy labels for torture, and even if he had personal reasons why he could countenance sending people off to fight and die but not tolerate using distancing labels for torture, he called the "enhanced interrogation techniques" what they were. Remembering that and other similar moments of relative humanity like it are easier when the person can't cast a vote we disagree with anymore.

2) Many liberals have a strong sense of "fair" and "unfair", strong enough to overcome even extreme differences in policy. His record of horrible votes, crass language, and choosing Sarah Fucking Palin were all enough to attack in 08, and so we didn't attack even the negative parts of his service record much. Seeing Cadet Bone Spurs insult him for getting captured went beyond even allegations he was a reckless pilot or even questioning the wisdom of continuing with that particular bombing run when it was ultimately a failure -- it became an attack on all POWs, not just McCain. Even if one doesn't like McCain, they can agree belittling people who were captured in a war many people had no choice in fighting is the definition of "uncouth", amongst other less elegant words.

3) There's probably a sense of self-righteousness combined with schadenfreude regarding the fact Democrats can muster a few kind words while Republicans are out there trashing this man and embarrassing themselves thoroughly in the process. As one person interviewed on CBS tonight said, this sulky manchild behavior is going to tarnish Trump's legacy, not McCain's. Any infighting or hypocrisy in the Already Faltering GOP gives us a sense of hope that maybe it will finally implode. And so by "going high", we can then look down at the RWers saying things they'd have had apoplexy if we'd said in 2008.

[ornotna]

164. To not honor him

Puts us at the same petty, vindictive level that tRump is at. We are better than that. I didn't agree with everything John McCain did or said but I will honor his service to our country.

[Demonaut]

165. wow...I mean....just 'wow"

[jmowreader]

173. Because someone has to.

If it were up to the hard right, McCain would be held up as a traitor and buried in a drainage ditch. Even though most of his political positions were bad, he deserves better than what the Trump bund would give.

[lunasun]

181. I thought this was a good pro / con article with the comments included. You may not but the

comments section shows me that many who read it have different ways of looking at his life and brought out many pro/con thoughts without policing
https://www.theroot.com/john-mccain-requests-former-rivals-barack-obama-georg-1828610386

[leftofcool]

185. Who is us? I don't allow DU to speak for me or hold opinions for me

I don't personally care what anyone on DU thinks for John McCain. I only know what I thought of John McCain then and what I think now. Who I decide to honor is strictly up to me, not you and not DU. Do you need more clarification?

[stonecutter357]

189. Russian Politician on McCain: The Enemy is Dead !!

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/1017508101

[treestar]

192. He just died

And he was not as bad as the likes of Scalia. He could disagree and be reasonable and for a Republican, that's good. It's not a time to dwell on his faults. Yes, this is the guy who picked Palin for a running mate. But he just died, so I'll dwell on the relatively positive.

[EffieBlack]

194. I expect that no one who dismisses McCain's 5 years of torture and imprisonment in 60s and 70s

as insufficient to balance out anything he's done since then that they don't like, won't ever try to use the afternoon another senator spent in jail following an anti-discrimination protest in the early 60s to ward off any criticism of his civil rights record in the subsequent 50 years

[melman]

211. .

[LanternWaste]

195. You may celebrate, dance on a grave, ignore it and say nothing, etc.

It's your choice to respond as you wish, there's no collective requirement compelling you to act in one way or another.

No reason for your confusion... unless yours is merely petulance against those celebrating his life. In which case, that's on you and you alone.

[melman]

212. What absolute nonsense

It's not grave dancing to talk about a politician's real record.

[Kaleva]

198. When you are standing with Trumpers condemning McCain, u may want to rethink your position

[SpicyBoi]

200. This is the same position that I had against McCain in 2008

[JI7]

202. McCain died in 2008 also ?

[SpicyBoi]

203. He ran against Obama...

[JI7]

204. he is running against Obama right now ?

[SpicyBoi]

205. Just because you lose to my guy

Doesn't mean you get a free pass for the rest of your life.

[JI7]

206. Obama is giving him a free pass ?

[SpicyBoi]

207. He's eulogizing him alongside W. Bush

So I'd say yeah.

[john657]

235. You just don't get it do you?

President Obama is being a statesman by delivering a eulogy with President Bush.

President Obama and Sen. John McCain were good friends, despite their ideological differences, so it stands to reason that McCain would want President Obama to speak at his funeral.

[Bettie]

199. For me, he's a mixed bag of mostly terrible

but, he's also the last vestige of an almost-decent person in the Republican party.

In comparison to others in his party, he was a good guy.

In my mind, he gets credit for pushing back, even as mildly as he did, against that woman at his rally who said "he's an Arab".

So, he's not someone I looked up to, not someone I particularly admired, but he was usually better than the rest of the people of his party are these days.

I also don't think he was a malicious man.

I do think that most of the Republicans in congress right now are. Their goal is to hurt as many people as they can while gathering as much loot for themselves at the same time.

He also gets a few points for how much that horrible orange thing hates him. I'll admit to that.

[moriah]

209. It's really sad when "Better than Trump" is a "tongue-bath".

I seem to recall a time in politics when what you outline as his good points were the minimum requirement, or at least the attempt was made to hide tendencies towards the goals you mention.

Now it's just all out in the open, and praised.

To quote He Who Shouldn't Be Named: "Sad!"

[Bettie]

229. Hey, there was a time when

"he doesn't want to utterly destroy the country" wasn't even a thing that needed to be said about our elected officials.

That time is gone now and we have a bunch of individuals who seriously do want to harm the US and all of its non-.01% citizens.

[IluvPitties]

210. McCain was a decent human being.

Imperfect, but reasonable and a good example of what public service looks like. A man who still believed in bipartisanship when it was being rejected by his party.

He was what I wish all Republicans were.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

213. I've moved on. Hopefully the O P will move on too.

[SpicyBoi]

214. You called me agenda-driven in another post

Do you care to apologize or nah?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

216. Apologize for what ?

It's time to move on. You can't make the poor fella any more dead.

[SpicyBoi]

217. This post

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11059805

[DemocratSinceBirth]

218. What's wrong with it ?

I merely posited a question.

[SpicyBoi]

219. Don't be passive aggressive

The comments underneath it were despicable

[DemocratSinceBirth]

220. There is no such thing as stupid questions.

Only stupid answers.

[SpicyBoi]

221. Irrelevant

Whatevs. Go on with your mancrush McCain. See if that gets you anywhere against Trump.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

222. "Mancrush."

Sounds a wee bit homophobic , no ?

[SpicyBoi]

232. If you don't want to be accused of having a crush on McCain

Don't fawn all over him. Pretty simple, I'd say.

[john657]

236. Wow dude,

I hope you didn't pull a muscle reaching for that "mancrush" comment.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

238. I'm not fawning on him. Just paying the customary respect to the dead.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

225. You joined just to air your superiority over us ?

The Bull Connor comparison is rich:





The gentleman in your avatar disagrees with you and agrees with us:

Trump ‘made a mistake’ by not honoring John McCain’s service, Jimmy Carter says

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-made-a-mistake-by-not-honoring-john-mccains-service-jimmy-carter-says/2018/08/28/736dc8a4-aadb-11e8-8a0c-70b618c98d3c_story.html?utm_term=.2c4b5b105831

[tymorial]

228. Again with this.

I swear people feed off this shit.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

230. Let the guy die in peace. We're not Trump.

[tymorial]

239. Exactly

[elleng]

233. In case you missed it, see yesterday's Democracy Now.

&t=0s&list=PL50BDB9BCCFAF09CA&index=7

[MFM008]

234. To me

Its about sacrifice.
Not politics.
I lived the military life, my dad was scheduled
To go to the American Embassy just as the
Tet offensive began.
He had to have emergency dental surgery and
They passed him over.
Sacrifice.
Yeah he was a republican,
yeah ...he was a cranky
Fuck up.
Imagine 5+ years in a cage, emotionally,
Physically in pain. We have no idea.
None.

[BigDemVoter]

237. And don't forget that McCain tried to saddle us with the dreadfully stupid

Sarah Palin as VP. . . .