And I would like to ask a personal question

[seanpencil]

As bad as it's gotten, as crazy/making, as Let's Not Call This A Depression despite what we witness around us, as insane as the media coverage and what it covers has become, how do you keep your perspective and your will to participate and not ignore it, shut down, tune out?

(Humor helps)

[Mojorabbit]

1. I have always used humor

but I will admit that I have been really tempted to move out to the boonies and live off grid and just let the inevitable happen.

[PDJane]

2. I simply can't. I've tried.

No matter how depressing or how outrageous, I have this weird need to stay informed.

However, I don't have a teevee, don't have to see fox or any of the other idiocy.

I read, do needlework, talk to friends, and cuddle other people's children and pets.

[seanpencil]

3. love this

and this made me lol
"No matter how depressing or how outrageous, I have this weird need to stay informed."

[JohnnyRingo]

4. 8 inches

oops... I guess I should have read the rest of the post before I replied.

Uh, yeah... I guess humor helps during such dire times.

[seanpencil]

5. no one

believes you

[PDJane]

6. See, that's why women have a problem with spatial relationships............

[seanpencil]

7. or long distance ones

[JohnnyRingo]

8. I credit you for good judgement.

...So hold your head up and don't let the world around you get you down. It's never as bad as it seems on TV, and we've gotten through worse than this.

[seanpencil]

10. thanks for good cheer

don't watch tv

"we've gotten through worse than this"

what was that?

[bhikkhu]

9. Not watching tv tends to limit the crazy-making aspects

Though it also leaves me wondering what everyone is fuming about in apparent unison often. Beyond media, there are actual people living actual lives, even if they themselves are molding the personal narratives of "who I am and what is important in my life" around what they see on tv from day to day.

I tend to find sanity in statistics. If a bunch of angry people say we're in a depression, I look up the definition of the word, look at the economic figures and trends, and agree or not. If not, then I have to wonder what is going on in people's lives to make them insist on the reality of a depression. Which usually goes back to what tv channel or radio show they have been watching...

[seanpencil]

11. great post

and the same might be said of not calling it a depression.

"then I have to wonder what is going on in people's lives to make them insist on the reality of a depression. Which usually goes back to what tv channel or radio show they have been watching..."

[bhikkhu]

14. Well, looking at definitions and statistics -

Depression: "A particularly long and/or deep recession. While there is no technical definition of a depression, conventionally it is defined as a period featuring severe declines in productivity and investment and particularly high unemployment. During the Great Depression, for example, GDP in the United States dropped 12% between 1929 and 1930 and a further 16% the following year. Likewise, unemployment rose to more than 25% nationwide and higher in some places.

From http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Depression

The US was in a recession (negative GDP growth) throughout 2008, and about halfway into 2009. Since then we have had economic growth averaging about 2%. Which isn't too bad. Global economic growth in the same period has averaged about 1.5%.

As far as cause and effect, one of the one's most overlooked here is resource and energy constraints, involved in the price spikes in 2008. The problems have been a bit under the radar, as they don't quite suit the ideologies that are usually applied to economic conditions, but they have become endemic. Every indication is that growth is now constrained under a new paradigm of resource and energy limits, regardless of whatever else is done. Finite planet=limits to growth.

[seanpencil]

17. ivory tower view?

first, the unemployment numbers are skewed to not reflect reality.

next, how do you define this claim of growth? "Since then we have had economic growth averaging about 2%." Who has benefited from that? Not the people out of work, hungry, losing health care and homes ...

Don't call it a Depression if you want but really don't try to call it recovery. I'm sorry that may not be welcome here, I forgot. But reality speaks for itself, unless you're not looking at it.

[bhikkhu]

19. Anecdote is then better?

When looking at national or global economic activity, it is impossible to gain a real perspective by looking at what one's neighbors are up to, or how one's city is faring, or even one's state. Outside of statistics, we have a media that offers snippets of anecdote from here and there, generally bent to some agenda or other. People tend to read and watch what they find agreeable to their perspective; if you think we are in a desperate depression, you tend to watch a certain news channel and read articles with supportive headlines to massage that perspective.

We had a recession, and we are in a slow recovery. Its evident in the employment numbers, and in the overall economic numbers. Its easy to say that 4 million new jobs over the last 3 and a half years is not enough, but 4 million new jobs is also neither recession nor depression. Economic growth of 2% may not satisfy, but it is certainly not a recession.

If you look at the global energy-and-resources picture, 2% growth is likely to be "the new 5% growth" for the rest of our lives. I haven't seen anything workable that will change that - certainly not from any political party or ideology. The planet's resources don't change, regardless of how you squint your eyes. If you look at the correlation between economic activity and carbon emissions, and the inevitable link between carbon emissions and global climate change, you might begin to think that slower growth may be a blessing, and a long-term shift in the right direction for our species and our planet.

[seanpencil]

20. Really

"When looking at national or global economic activity, it is impossible to gain a real perspective by looking at what one's neighbors are up to, or how one's city is faring, or even one's state."

Really. Yes, that's the academic, antiseptic point of view, isn't it?

Yet, calling this a recovery is magical thinking.

"If you look at the correlation between economic activity and carbon emissions, and the inevitable link between carbon emissions and global climate change, you might begin to think that slower growth may be a blessing, and a long-term shift in the right direction for our species and our planet."

Well, there's that.

[bhikkhu]

21. Not magical thinking, just looking at the actual numbers

Growth by quarter, in "annualized" percentages. Again, it may not satisfy, but it is economic growth.

[seanpencil]

22. and not looking at the people

Like I said.



Looking at the numbers is meaningless, without some REAL connection to how it affects the people. You didn't answer "who benefits?" Corporate gains are not recovery.

[bhikkhu]

23. One can only see a few people at a time

...so your perspective can be dependent not just on what state or city you live in, but on what street. "On my block, people are doing fine - so what's all this complaining?" Or the converse.

Imagine that you were in a position of responsibility - what sources of information would you rely on to make informed decisions and guide policy? Hopefully you would look past the people in your immediate vicinity and rely on "the numbers".

Employment gains are recovery. Economic activity combines several things, but the main driver is consumer spending - people buying and selling things, which is the main driver of employment. It isn't dependent on corporate gains (corporate profits), though that is inevitably a part of it.

[seanpencil]

25. one can only see a few numbers at a time

you prefer the limitations of your POV. Fine.

Nothing wrong with data and "anecdotal." Combined. Like a human would do.

"Hopefully you would look past the people in your immediate vicinity and rely on "the numbers"."

Yep, lookin right past them is what's surely goin on now.

"Employment gains are recovery. Economic activity combines several things, but the main driver is consumer spending - people buying and selling things, which is the main driver of employment. It isn't dependent on corporate gains (corporate profits), though that is inevitably a part of it."

People aren't spending money. Because they don't have it. Because they don't have jobs. Or health care. Or cars. Or pensions. Or equity in their homes. Or homes, even.

Corporate gains are not "inevitably a part of it" because not all businesses or purchases are corporate product. Looking at (globally-operating, outsourcing, offshoring) corporate profits as indicators of fiscal improvements is not reality in the U.S.A.

[bhikkhu]

35. Yet people are spending money

...even if you just look at retail sales, the rebound from the recession is significant, and the markets are growing slowly rather than shrinking or stagnating.

I don't disagree with much of what you say, but I hate to be mistaken myself, so before I make a statement of fact I check to make sure whether its actually true. A good habit from developed in college - where anything you say or write in a class may be challenged, and its best to have support for it at hand.

...and, in the same vein, people do have jobs - at least 142 million or so of them, and the numbers are increasing. Again, what there is may not satisfy, but pretending that 142 million jobs aren't there is a disservice, and pretending that the numbers aren't increasing may undermine the policies that have given us 28 consecutive months of positive job growth in the private sector.

[seanpencil]

41. I hope

you're getting paid for this

[bhikkhu]

62. Well, I seriously doubt that you are!

Though one never knows.

I get paid to fix cars myself, though I have spent a reasonable amount of time in college working on critical thinking and writing skills. If you take thinking itself seriously enough to look at the big picture of narratives, at people's motives and their ability to express themselves (among other things), then little toss-off's like "I hope you're getting paid for this" tell more about yourself than you would guess.

[seanpencil]

64. if you had a big picture view

you would not be writing as you have been.

[Summer Hathaway]

12. Some of the (few) advantages

of growing old includes:

Hearing "things have never been as bad as THIS" - and knowing it's the hundredth time you've heard it.

Realizing that some of your fellow citizens aren't any dumber than they ever were - they can just broadcast their dumbness via the internet now, which makes it seem like there are a lot more of them than there used to be.

Refusing to accept doom-and-gloom scenarios as late-breaking news - when they're really just tired old reruns.

Being able to say "Things were waaaay better in my day" - and realizing that your grandparents said that, your parents said that, your kids will eventually say it, and so will every generation say it for all eternity. And we all will have meant it, damn you!

Recognizing that for every problem there is a solution, and someone will always find that solution - even if it's not you, although you can always claim credit for it after the fact.

Acknowledging that some things are worth fighting for, and some things are worth laughing about - and knowing the difference between the two, despite those who can't seem to tell the difference on their best day

Wanting to change the world in a BIG way, and realizing that it's the small things that change the world - which you are more than capable of handling.

Remembering that life will go on, with or without you - and deciding that 'with you' makes a lot more sense, because you're already in the neighborhood anyway.

[seanpencil]

13. that's beautifully put

except we are screwn.

If someone is cozy in their middle class or higher retirement and can chuckle about it, that's great.

Except we are screwn, in ways that are NOT the same old same old.

So maybe the solutions will be found. Maybe not.

Thanks for a great reply.

[Summer Hathaway]

15. And thanks for proving my point.

You assume I am "cozy in my middle class or higher retirement". I'm not.

But it is perhaps the job of the discontent to make such assumptions and, in the doing, encourage discontent among others.

"Except we are screwn, in ways that are NOT the same old same old."

Again, if I had dime for every time I've heard that in my life, I would be posting this reply from my yacht as it cruises the Mediterranean on its way to one of my many multi-million dollar, paid-in-cash, mortgage-free European castles.

Living as long as I have, my perspective encompasses many decades. And if you think you just invented the oh-woe-is-us wheel, I can assure you it's been available, reasonably priced (and, if you act NOW!, includes lovely wind-chimes and a set of Ginzu knives!) since before you were born.

But, by all means, please go about your "we're all screwn" life. It's that kind of rhetoric that keeps my generation in stitches.

[emilyg]

16. This 74 year old agrees with you.

[seanpencil]

18. You are the one making assumptions

I said "if someone ..." I don't know you or your situation. And I understand your point. My grandmother used to say the same thing long ago. And it is the comfort of surviving that makes survival seem likely... or not worth worrying about. Being smug and snarky, even.

The fact that you can be "in stitches" about it, proves my point. This is not the same old same old, at all. In some important areas, we are in a very different situation than ever before. Maybe you can't see that.

[Summer Hathaway]

26. Of course we're in a different situation

than ever before - just like every generation before us, and just like every generation to come.

Time moves on, things change - some for the better, some for the worse. And each generation has its own challenges to meet.

What keeps me in stitches is not the situation, but some people's over-reaction to anything and everything.

[seanpencil]

29. You are in stitches about what you see as rhetoric

even when that's not what it is, which helps you not think about it. Which is what old folks like to do and tell others "yeah every generation says that same old whine" which of course goes over real well with younger people.

Who might wonder if you understand what is really different about the times we're in. "Of course we're in a different situation." No we're not. We're in a repeat of history, which is what happens again and again and again, huh?

[Summer Hathaway]

31. Again, thanks for confirming my initial thought

that you really don't know what you're talking about.

"Except we are screwn, in ways that are NOT the same old same old."

"This is not the same old same old, at all. In some important areas, we are in a very different situation than ever before."

Followed by:

Of course we're in a different situation? "No we're not. We're in a repeat of history, which is what happens again and again and again, huh?

Contradict yourself much?

[seanpencil]

40. oh yes

by all means, confirm your smug cluelessness. Isn't that great?!!

[Summer Hathaway]

46. Oh, noes!!!

Someone on the internet doesn't agree with me - they must be smug and clueless!

Projection at its finest.

[seanpencil]

47. bullshit

[Summer Hathaway]

49. Look, sweetie

I quoted your own words back to you, proving that you contradicted yourself. Now you can't find a way out of that corner you painted yourself into - so 'bullshit' is your only response.

This ends the discussion. Life is too short to waste time arguing with stupid.

[seanpencil]

50. don't dig yourself in any deeper

sweetie

[bhikkhu]

24. One thing I tell my kids

and one way I think about it - the big-picture long-view of the present moment against human history - is that we live in the wealthiest era humanity has ever known, in one of the wealthiest nations on earth. On top of that, being pale-skinned (whether one wishes it or not) really does put the whole game on what has been called the "the easiest difficulty setting". In 50 years, imagine having your great grandkids around asking you what you did back in the good old days of wealth and comfort? I'd like to say I didn't spend my time complaining.

I've seen more people fall into aimless depression and malaise because they have nothing to strive against, nothing to work really hard for, and without really trying they are surrounded by more material stuff than they can manage. And, worse, all the things we humans are inclined to become addicted to are readily available, and there isn't any big reason to not indulge. What responsibility do any of us have to society, if we can convince ourselves its rotten to the core, and has nothing to do with us?

I try to be an example myself, whether anyone pays any attention or not. Including my kids. I work hard at my job, am responsible with money, have no addictions, keep up the household, eat well and exercise, help people if I can, and I enjoy the life I have and don't complain.

[seanpencil]

48. These are good points

and your final comment is what it all comes down to.

It also helps when young are raise with concepts the nation was founded on, aka civics, to understand that their civil rights are GONE.

[bhikkhu]

55. Civil rights are well established by law and custom here

I have had many friends from other countries over the years, and I can tell you it has come up several times in conversation - "if you think you have problems with your rights, try living in my country!" would be the general consensus of response.

I've never lived in another country myself, and I think we could certainly do better with regard to equality (which is more matter of custom, going against the grain of the law), but GONE is a likely to be a self-inflicted isolated perspective, IMHO.

[seanpencil]

57. and here with have the most dangerous blind spot of them all.

[bhikkhu]

61. Just don't join Al Qaeda, or declare a personal war on the US

...or go to Afghanistan to fight alongside the Taliban. Avoid those little no-no's and you should be fine.

[seanpencil]

66. oh, so you're not serious

[ret5hd]

32. My parents/grandparents never said that. And neither did yours if you are over 20.

[Summer Hathaway]

36. Didn't say what?

That things were better 'in their day'?

My parents and grandparents said it all the time, especially about their childhood and teen years. "We made our own fun. We could play on the street after dark without fear. We went out and made friends on the block, instead of sitting in front of a screen playing video games all day," etc.

[DonCoquixote]

38. please consider

making this reply an op, it is worth it.

[Summer Hathaway]

53. I'm not the OP type

and don't think what I have to say is particularly interesting.

But I thank you for your kindness - it is truly appreciated.

[upaloopa]

27. I sometimes think that I have to do double duty because my wife does not pay attention at all to

what's going on. She just went shopping with her sister and mother oblivious that Ryan is on the repug ticket. They will go shopping and come back to watch the cardashians or what ever and read people magazine and other reality shows. La de da

[barbtries]

28. DU.

and my kids and my grandkids. in spite of all this i do feel discouraged fairly often.

[Festivito]

30. I saw the VP choice today and I am back to being happy again.

There's work to do, but only election fraud could take the election away from us.

I can't seem to wipe the smile off my face today.

[Robb]

33. Si vis pacem, para scotch.

[Avalux]

34. Try to see the big picture. Envision what would happen if we don't participate and give up. n/t

[lunatica]

37. Remembering history and being optimistic

One of the worst times this country had was the Great Depression. Millions homeless and jobless and a major drought in the heartland. People stood in food lines and lived in Hoovervilles. It was a very dark time in our country, and then, along came Franklyn Roosevelt and started the New Deal, Social Security, the GI Bill and the public works program and so much more and this country went from the Great Depression to one of the most progressive and wealthy countries in a matter of just a few years.

We're just having another dark hour. It's quite possible we'll have another spurt of fantastic growth and wealth just around the corner. It's just difficult to live during the dark hours. I'm optimistic because people want to be comfortable and they want to have lives that are more than just surviving.

Hang on. There's a brilliant and beautiful light just around the corner.

[seanpencil]

42. Did FDR start the GI Bill?

Did not know that.

Thanks for the great post

And thanks to all those above yours.

[CTyankee]

51. I thought it was Truman, but it could have been Roosevelt's idea all along and after he

died so suddenly Truman just carried on with what Roosevelt would have done anyway.

[seanpencil]

52. yeah that

Second Bill of Rights thingie sure has legs to this day.

[99Forever]

39. Want to know the difference between...

... a "recession" and a "depression" from someone who won't hide behind lying statistics and pretty spin graphs?


A recession is when the guy down the street can't find a job after months of looking, a depression is when you can't.

I have yet to find one of these people wearing rose colored glasses that isn't employed at a job paying a living wage or far more. It's easy to talk "positive" when you can afford to live comfortably. Not so fucking easy when everything you've spent a lifetime working for has been stolen from you through 1%er greed.

[seanpencil]

43. DING DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER

[davidpdx]

44. For me I'm far removed from most of the coverage being overseas

I see negative stuff on the news, but never the ads (unless I happen to watch them intentionally online). Being "immune" to that probably helps. I'm sure the closer to the election the more stressed the ads will make everyone.

I will watch the conventions and the debates (time permitting and depending on what time they are on here).

It is sort of nice to be able to turn that stuff off though.

[seanpencil]

45. cool

[B Calm]

54. Depression, what depression? Hell I'm

making money! DOW up over 13,000

[NNN0LHI]

56. I have witnessed something a lot closer to a depression under 2 terms of Reagan

Nice try though.

Don

[seanpencil]

59. this is better?

it's the same damn thing, later.

[NNN0LHI]

60. I was laid off from my job for the better part of 6 years back then so yes this is better to me

[seanpencil]

63. Better for some

not for most.

[ibegurpard]

58. what's the alternative?

focus on your own small sphere of influence...no matter how much you rage and stress about the nation and the world there's only so much you can do about it. What good does it do to let it get to you?

[seanpencil]

65. yes