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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Supreme Court should no longer be a lifetime appointment
When 60 votes were needed you would generally get more mainstream appointments to the high court. But now with the GOP going nuclear well likely see young, far right or left justices that may serve for 30 or 40 years. Its basically going to come down to the luck of the draw so to speak whos in power when someone dies. And from seeing who Trump has nominated its clear the GOP is trying to make the court another arm of the party. I dont know what the answer is, maybe 10-15 year terms, but this lifetime thing has got to go.
woodsprite
(11,916 posts)Might make individuals think differently about the decisions they make. Love to go 6 yrs, because nobody would be fully tied to a 2-term President, but I think that would be too much turnover.
MichMary
(1,714 posts)which won't happen.
Anyway, the lifetime appointment thingy is one of those "checks and balances." It's in there for a reason, and actually, a very good reason.
BannonsLiver
(16,389 posts)Outside of checks and balances which dont require a lifetime appointment.
MichMary
(1,714 posts)served for 23 years, and RBG has served for 25 years and counting.
When do you think they should be term-limited?
LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,586 posts)While I hate to use South Carolina as an example for anything, in this case they've got a good idea.
mythology
(9,527 posts)It's not the age, it's the person.
Bayard
(22,083 posts)She has to hang in there till we get a Dem president again.
Speaking of which, how in the hell is a man that is an un-indicted co-conspirator get to nominate anybody? Especially someone out of the same insane mold as himself?
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)should have to stop doing at "age 70." It's all about ability. Not ageist bigotry based on a year number.
Btw, if there's value to it, would there be increased value at 69? Would 71 be better? Why 70?
Grandparents! Should it be illegal to let them babysit after 70? Huge responsibility after all.
That in 2016 only 1 out of 5 young people bothered to vote (despicable!) suggests their age cohort is still severely lacking in judgement and responsibility. I can tell you, I feel plenty of bigotry toward them these days with every scary development and atrocity on the right. How about making all citizens only eligible to drive and vote at 40, when they'd have had more time to develop the maturity needed for citizenship?
LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,586 posts)as he had been when I clerked for him two decades before. I had been his first legal assistant when he became a Circuit Judge. Unlike his subsequent clerks, whose only experience had been going to school, I had been in the Air Force and was still an officer in the Reserves (I'd fly to Europe or Panama and Puerto Rico on weekends when my classmates were in the law library) and had had a variety of other jobs -- like working on the newspaper in Tupelo, MS -- that let me perform a lot other services subsequent clerks couldn't. And while I respected his position and him as a person I was never intimidated by either, which he liked. His secretary told me that the Judge would drive his subsequent clerks crazy by comparing them to me: "Now, I don't expect you to be able to do this, but when Steve was here he could..."
From watching the system at work, my thought on the "forced to retire at 70" policy is this:
First of all, South Carolina Supreme Court justices get paid a good salary--$180,000 annually. In South Carolina that's pretty damned good. Since your retirement is based on your final income, it's a good job to retire from.
In South Carolina, a typical career path is to start either at the Citadel or USC (that's University of South Carolina for you Left Coasters), then law school at USC, practice in a small town for a few years and be active in the community until you're well known, then get elected to the state legislature (a part-time gig), and then get elected by the legislature to become a Circuit Judge. Being a Circuit Judge is a pretty sweet job -- it's interesting, you're respected, the hours are reasonable, and you don't have to put up with client shit -- and most people are content to stay there. And since nearly all judges are former legislators, the state legislature has made damned sure those jobs pay well and have a sweet retirement.
Then, if you play your cards right -- the Judge was very good at this -- when a slot on the state appellate court or Supreme Court opened up, you moved there. Finally, if you were really good at your job on the Supreme Court and had made the right connections in the state legislature, you became Chief.
Don't get me wrong, the Judge (my term of affection for him -- it drove him crazy when he was Chief) was really good at his job. He knew the law, loved the law, respected and liked lawyers, and was always focused on the bigger picture.
And at the age of 70 he was forced to retired, and the legislator gravy train moved forward one step as the next Chief stepped into the job.
He learned to play golf, became a Deacon at his church, and continued staying in touch with his friends, which seemed to be everyone in the South Carolina legal system, legislature, the town where I had met him, his church, buddies from WWII -- lots of people. South Carolina is a relatively small state, and it's possible to become a big fish in a small pond. Before he died in his 90s he had become extremely well known, liked, and respected. I've never met a man I have admired or liked as much as him.
So that, from my limited perspective as a legal assistant, is why the system worked the way it did. I called it "The Legislator Full Employment Act," much to the Judge's annoyance. He could have easily worked throughout his 80s without a diminishment in his mental or legal skills, but he was fully aware of the system and accepted life as it was.
BTW, in the two years I was there I never got even a whiff of what his political leanings were, not that it mattered to me. When we were interviewing for my replacement one youngster's first question to me was, "Which political party does he belong to?" That was one of many reasons he didn't get the job. The fact he had married the girl I'd had a crush on when I was in law school didn't play a factor, of course. I would never be that petty.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Thanks. I enjoyed what you have to say, especially that political bias was kept scrupulously out -- and a little surprised at that also, but heartening and impressive.
It's understandable why SC's secure rack railway of a career path ends on the top at a cliff. But for SCOTUS, why not just a term limit? Members of the federal reserve serve staggered 14-year terms. SCOTUS could be 17- or 19-year terms. Nothing that would coincide with national election years.
Failing a constitutional amendment, perhaps congress could increase the number and put anyone who'd served 20 years on what would effectively mostly be just emeritus status, available when needed to fill in, and slash their pay in half.
Whoops to that last, just noticed they'd be on full pay forever. NOT the right kind of incentive for people you really want to take a powder.
Btw, my MIL lived in Palm Springs. So while she was there, there were at least two.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Excerpt:
The basic purpose of lifetime appointment is to assure the integrity of the power granted to Court Justices and protect them against unwarranted interference from either the legislative or executive
branch. The express and implicit separation of the Supreme Court from the other branches of Government is therefore upheld.
In accordance with the principle of providing checks and balances, the executive
and legislative branches exercise control over the Supreme Court by,
respectively, proposing and approving candidates for that body.
In the highly politicized atmosphere which has long attended the nominally apolitical arena of Court Justices, Presidents often attempt to buttress their agendas by selecting Court Justice
nominees favorable toward their views. At times, however, the judicial leanings of Court Justices prove different in practice than they had previously appeared.
The policy of lifetime appointment, therefore, secures a Court Justice against retribution
for decisions going against the wishes of his or her Presidential sponsor. In
this regard, proponents have cited Alexander Hamiltons declaration in the
Federalist Papers that nothing can contribute so much to its firmness and independence as
permanency in office.
struggle4progress
(118,290 posts)Moostache
(9,895 posts)6 terms in the House
3 terms as President
2 terms as a Senator
1 term as a SCOTUS Justice
Politicians could move from one to another but never back again...
Lobbyists would be banned for 12 years after leaving office....
Easy Peasy Nice and Easy.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)It's called "don't vote for them." Everyone that advocates for term limits probably still votes for their long-standing representative because they like them. People should be able to vote for whomever they want representing them without someone from a different state deciding that the term limit is up.
Shemp Howard
(889 posts)President is the most powerful position on your list. So it needs a special restriction. But I agree with everything else you said there.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)The term lengths put forth were there for a reason and the varying lengths of term is, in my opinion, one of the more genius aspects of the Constitution. I fully am not happy with the make up of the court, but the court lifetime appointment is there so that there is something more stable than the opposite of the SCOTUS in the House that could get completely new people every 2 years.
Just because we don't like it is no reason to change the system.
BannonsLiver
(16,389 posts)I keep reading that in this thread and yet no one can articulate why. Hint: the reason you listed is not why there are lifetime appointments.
MichMary
(1,714 posts)Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)The House is the smallest geographical area of representation. Populations at this level can change rapidly and the things that are important to small areas can change quickly. As a result, the entire House can be changed every two years. This is very volatile, though, and would be chaotic if our whole government was based on this model.
The Senate is a larger area and is supposed to represent an entire state rather than a smaller area. Things will change less. They get a longer term and only 1/3 of the Senate can be replaced every two years. This allows for change but tempers the possibly quick turnover of the House. They both need to agree on a law, so the two different terms should moderate things.
The SCOTUS is about whether the laws are constitutional. There is very little change in this. Sure, there are societal changes, but those don't fluctuate at that level. They get a lifetime so to that if the bicameral model above gets a little crazy, the SCOTUS can temper that. We shouldn't see huge changes in interpretation because they are there longer.
If we mess with this, we will see gay marriage being banned, allowed, banned, allowed and possibly cycling all the time and on a very quick cycle. That level of chaos isn't good.
The current system has served us pretty well.
YessirAtsaFact
(2,064 posts)Or maybe 2/3 majorly to seat a Supreme Court Justice
We would get better judges
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,921 posts)and not the "we're going to filibuster" BS we have now. Want to hold up a vote? Well, strap on a catheter and get ready to talk for a couple days straight.
YessirAtsaFact
(2,064 posts)Im talking about requiring a super majority to seat a justice.
It takes 2/3 majorly of the Senate to ratify a treaty. Make a similar requirement to seat a justice.
And Im not talking about senate rules- ruthless politicians can change them. Im talking about a constitutional amendment.
Its pie in the sky now, but if our democracy survives OrangeTurd, we may have an opportunity to make some real changes in the aftermath.
Bettie
(16,110 posts)definitely give us a more balanced court.
Or we'd have no Supreme Court because Republicans would never vote yes on anyone.
BumRushDaShow
(129,068 posts)with the assumption that Senators wouldn't normally be as severely partisan as they are today and would aim to confirm someone more "neutral" (judicial) versus extremely partisan... Plus the longer one is on the court, the more they realize the depth and breadth and importance of supporting the credibility of the institution.
Doing it this way HAS had a mixed record, however you do see quite a bit of "moderating" of justices over the decades throughout the existence of the court.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)No, it doesn't.
People need to keep this in mind when voting for a president.
meadowlark5
(2,795 posts)Maybe back in the day when people only lived on average of 55yrs then it wasn't an issue. But serving in a position of power like that for 40yrs or more with absolutely no competition or push from the citizens to be held accountable? That's insane.
Senators and congressmen can have lifetime positions too - but they have to work to keep them. A supreme court judge is handed a position with no work or accountability ever needed to keep it.
Wounded Bear
(58,662 posts)meadowlark5
(2,795 posts)for someone to sit on the bench with no job review, no election, no accountability really to keeping their job. We all know how hard it would be to impeach someone as flawed and corrupt as Kavanaugh. So a lifetime appt is a bit over the top in today's world.
BannonsLiver
(16,389 posts)Those who simply regurgitate the constitution like theyre saying the pledge in elementary school do not. Theres a lot of the same mentality in this thread that baggers use to justify 2A.
sarisataka
(18,660 posts)Then the appointment is for life. You can call it regurgitation but that is what it says.
Unless you are advocating that we can pick and choose when we wish to follow the Constitution and when we wish to make on-the-spot exceptions.
meadowlark5
(2,795 posts)Of course, we know how hard that is to amend the constitution for anything. The framers did not know people would live to be 80, 90yrs old at the time. But we all know why either party would be hard pressed to amend the constitution to term limit Supreme Court judges.
sarisataka
(18,660 posts)In the Constitution can be changed via Amendment. The process is not easy, not should it be.
If it is such a great idea, both parties should support it an the Amendment would pass. The pitfalls are each party would try to arrange it so they benefit at the expense of the other. Also once judges have term limits the question would come up why doesn't Congress have term limits. Legislators have a vested interest in not having term limits.
Wounded Bear
(58,662 posts)Most of the reason average lifespan was short back then was because of infant and child mortality rates, which was astronomical by today's standards. Once people reach adulthood, their chances of reaching 80 yrs old was not much less than modern times.
Plenty of people lived to 80 and 90 back then.
The founders knew.
BannonsLiver
(16,389 posts)The constitution also says we can have guns. Hows that working out?
sarisataka
(18,660 posts)When we want to follow the Constitution
Bush II had some ideas about not needing search warrants- I'm sure you'll have no problem with warrant-less searches if we are assured it is for a good cause
Or when the gop decides to remove Justice Ginsberg since there should be term limits
How would that work for you
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)If you made it past five years of age, the average was about what it is now.
All those infant mortalities dragged the *overall* average down.
StevieM
(10,500 posts)Meadowoak
(5,547 posts)In my opinion, it should be a larger, more diverse group from all walks of life. It should include an athiest, a LGBT, a single parent etc.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Shrek
(3,981 posts)Is that really what you want?
lancelyons
(988 posts)Bottom line is that the GOP will win these fights because they will do anything.
Meanwhile, the dems keep bringing butter knives and mustard to the gun fight.
I am not sure what I am more sick of. GOP lying and cheating.
or
The Dems not rising the the challenge properly.
The GOP did some 10 years worth of work in the counties, states, etc to assume control of the country and they did it.
They gerry mandered succesfully.
They took the house and the senate succesfully.
They are taking the courts successfully.
They are KICKING dems butts left and right and we are slinging words.
Zing Zing Zingbah
(6,496 posts)louis c
(8,652 posts)Each Supreme Court Justice Slot is staggered. The term is 18 years, so a President appoints a Justice every two years. Naturally, current members would need to be "grandfathered in" and he or she would be entitled to remain under the terms in which they were confirmed.
So, starting with the most recent Justice, a year would be attached. As current justices departed, a new justice would be slotted for the remainder of the term. I realize that is might take 30 years or so to have this system fully take affect, at least it would take the permenacy out of the system, in the mean time.
Justice (a) 2018-2036
(b) 2020-2038
(c) 2022-2040
Etc.
No justice can succeed him or herself or serve a second term. A Justice appointed to serve out an unexpired term will serve out that term and shall not be eligible for a second term.
Reasoning: 18 years is just about a generation. Since each President will get at least 2 appointments, and once this system works out all the grandfathered justices, the appointments become less political. Since it would take a constitutional amendment, we should add that all appointments need 60 votes in the Senate for confirmation.