All of the women I know, and I mean all of them,

[MineralMan]

tell stories about being groped by boys while in high school. Clumsy, domineering boys who were too stupid to realize that if they were nice and just a little bit patient, consent for such explorations would have happened in the natural course of things.

But, no. The boys just grabbed and honked body parts like bicycle horns. Stupid, immature boys, many of whom went on to be equally clumsy, stupid men. There is no cure for rank stupidity and brutish behavior.
_______________________________

When I was 14 years old, I had grown 10" taller than I had been at age 13. The change had come. It was way weird, really. My father, who was a strict guy, all of 34 years old at the time, sat me down one day and gave me "the talk." He didn't tell me how sex worked. I had already read all about that in books that were already in the house and available to me. That wasn't what he talked about.

He had a couple of pieces of advice, though. First, he told me, "Son, don't get a girl pregnant until you're ready and able to support a family. Just don't do it." The second piece of advice he gave me was, "Keep your hands to yourself unless the girl you're with makes it clear that it's OK to explore." He wasn't a man of many words, really, but the words he had were wise.

I didn't start going out with girls for another year. I was too bashful and unsure of myself at age 14. When I finally did start dating, though, I followed my father's advice. It wasn't long before I discovered that girls, too, were interested in human sexuality. They were just about as curious as I was, if not quite as eager. My dad was right. If you didn't move to grope them at the first opportunity and treated them as equals, they'd let you know when they wanted to explore further. That turned out to be universally true.

Parents can give their sons that information. It's important information. Explain it to them before they're actively hanging around with girls and tell them why they need to know that. Teach them not to just take what they want, but to wait until it is offered. Teach them to treat girls and women with respect and as equals and everything will find its own path.

[MaryMagdaline]

1. Good dads make good kids!

[MineralMan]

3. Yup. My dad will turn 94 this month.

Both he and my mother raised their kids with respect for others as a primary priority. It was always part of their lesson-giving. Now, they're fading fast, and have just moved into an assisted living facility. Mom has pretty advanced Alzheimer's and Dad is physically getting feebler by the week. I talk to them every day on the phone. I try to retell some story from my childhood each time, and thank them often for the lessons they taught their children.

They always have been very sensible folks.

[HipChick]

6. You are a great son MM..

I am going through this right now with my parents, and not handling it very well...(decision to move them to assisted living facility).tears came to my eyes, reading this..

[MineralMan]

10. I try. It's being a big adjustment for them.

They're both fiercely independent, so they aren't enjoying the scheduled meals and stuff like that. My mom can't decide things any more, and my father is finally getting it through his thick, stubborn skull that the move is for their safety and comfort. It's been just over a week since they moved, and they're finally beginning to accept this new chapter. It was my father's decision to finally do it, and it came the last time my mother ended up in the ER with heart palpitations. She's OK, but it's something that happens and is always a time of stress.

I'm not there, which is frustrating, but they're managing with the help of my sister and her husband, who still live there.

I've learned how to deal with my dad without taking on the role of child as parent too much. It's not easy. But, I think they'll be OK with this move, eventually.

It is sad. It's troubling. At age 73, it's also sobering. I'm not that far from their age, really. It's weird!

[MaryMagdaline]

9. Blessings to lovely family

[MineralMan]

12. Thank you very much. It's being a challenge, but

one that comes to most people.

[Power 2 the People]

54. Inspirational MineralMan.

Kavanugh's lessons from his parents: Take what you want.Laws and rules do not apply to us.

[MineralMan]

55. Yes. That's probably correct, even if it was unspoken.

[calimary]

31. Sure do.

[cwydro]

2. I remember boys snapping bra straps in elementary school.

Horribly stressful to a shy child.

Though many girls wore “training bras” lol, I didn’t. So I faced further humiliation for the lack of a bra strap.

I sure hope that no longer happens to girls.

[MineralMan]

4. Oh, it still happens, I'm sure, and worse.

Boys tend to not understand how to express their curiosity and interest. Nobody teaches them. So, they lurch ahead and do stupid, childish things.

I remember a friend in 6th grade. She was at least six inches taller than me, and was well into puberty. We were friends. Both of us played clarinet in the band, and we had known each other since early childhood. At the time, I was only dimly aware of sex at all. She, on the other hand, was subjected to leering and other stuff by boys and men, and complained about it sometimes.

One afternoon, we were at her house, practicing the clarinet together, sitting next to each other and playing off the same music stand. During a break, she looked at me and said, "You know, you could kiss me if you wanted to." I remember thinking that was sort of weird, but she was my friend, so I did. She smiled and then we returned to our practicing. It's a funny story now, and she reminded me of it at our 50th class reunion a few years ago. We laughed.

[Initech]

18. Not only that, Christian conservatives are planning to take us backwards in sex ed.

The fact that these fucking assholes have already made it worse is one thing, but if they get control of SCOTUS and our lower courts, they will bring us back to the stone ages on sex education. Which will mean we will expect to see things that will make the current climate towards women look tame by comparison. Watch.

[MineralMan]

21. There was virtually zero sex education when I was growing up.

My parents made books on the subject available at home, but didn't really discuss it much. Still, we were readers, so we read. They were always more interested in teaching about getting along with people. I think they figured that those lessons worked across the board in almost all situations. My dad's advice was just some additional information.

One of the books that was in the family bookcase was what was called a "marriage manual," which actually had a great deal of information about sex in it, including informative illustrations. In fact, it was pretty advanced for that time period (1950s) and stressed sexual equality and responsibility. There was even a chapter on contraception. It went into considerable detail, too. Both my sister and I read that book, cover to cover, around the onset of puberty. She was a year younger than me, but ahead of me in that regard.

Thinking back on those times, I suspect my parents were unusual in making such frank information available to us. It was not only not hidden, it was called attention to by my parents. "You should read this. You're getting older and need to know about that stuff." They didn't do the "sex talk." They just called our attention to the information and we read it for ourselves, without any embarrassment.

[FakeNoose]

32. The problem now is the internet - kids see too much too soon

Parental supervision (and communication) is absolutely essential because kids can find it all on the internet without the parental values thrown in. By parental values I mean like the "talk" that you and your Dad had all those years ago.

Those talks between Dads and sons still need to happen these days. I believe the Moms need to talk to sons also, but maybe the Dads should do it first. Thanks for this great story Mineral Man!

[MineralMan]

35. That's for sure.

There was porn when I was growing up, but we rarely got a look at it. Playboy, maybe, but that was all fakery, anyhow.

No more. These days, kids of both sexes are exposed to porn early and often. And the nature of that porn can be extreme, too. I think exposure is probably impossible for parents to prevent. It's literally everywhere and on every device.

Communication is even more important because of that. A lot of porn out there is so distorted toward the aggressive male point of view that it's frightening, really. And it's universally and freely available on any platform with a display. Uff da!

[keithbvadu2]

67. "kids see too much too soon"

[MoonRiver]

5. OMG, I remember "training bras."

My mother insisted I wear them, even when there was nothing to wear them over. Also, girdles! I was 5'5 and 115 pounds, but I HAD to wear a girdle to fit in.

Fortunately, some things have changed since then.

[MineralMan]

7. Girdles! I remember my skinny long-time high school girlfriend wearing those.

That was in the pre-panty hose days, so she wore them only when she was dressed up for something and was wearing stockings. She certainly needed no girdle at the time.

It was a source of amusement for both of us, actually.

[MoonRiver]

8. It was ludicrous!

Somehow the girdle manufactures got our mothers brainwashed that all nice girls need to wear them!

[MineralMan]

13. Well, that girdle sometimes went home in her purse, along with the hose.

She hated wearing that stuff. She hated wearing skirts and dresses to school, too. Ahead of her time, to be sure.

[MoonRiver]

14. I hated them all too.

They were uncomfortable and stupid. I was a skinny kid. My mom was skinny too, so I don't know why she pushed this on me, except it was designed to help me "fit in."

[MineralMan]

15. Fitting in was always important in those days, I guess.

I'm out of touch, so I don't know if the kids these days have similar challenges. But that whole girdle thing never made any sense at all, I think for skinny teenage girls. Maybe parents saw them as some sort of chastity device. I know that that last trip to the powder room at the dance, though, led to shedding those things before leaving the venue for a lot of girls. I know that because my girlfriend told me that she wasn't the only one carrying them in her purse.

[MoonRiver]

16. I remember doing that too, sometimes when I got to school.

I have actually heard of female principals or counselors checking for girdles back in the day. Thank goodness that didn't happen at my high school.

[MineralMan]

17. I don't think they did that at my school.

Bras, on the other hand, were required. Had to keep things from showing.

Boys, on the other hand, had their own terminally embarrassing issues to deal with. Issues that didn't have an easy solution. Oh, the horror! Seriously.

[Pepsidog]

45. I was in small catholic HS from 76-1980 and this behavior was rampant.

I was a jock and in the “cool” group in HS and the cornering of girls in cars and hallways and groping them was common. Strange but I recall it was the class a year ahead of mine that engaged in this behavior the most. I met the beautiful “science room” nerd and because of my reputation no one dare touch her, although a few came close to crossing the line. My point is that 40 years later we are still together and raised 4 children. 2 girls and 2 boys. I drilled into my boys heads that you treat all women with respect, and under no circumstance do you touch a female without her permission. I’m happy to say both sons are exemplary. One is in medical school the other just graduated college. I taught my daughters that boys/men, for the most part, will say or do anything to get what they want so be very careful of where you go and always be in control of yourself. My daughters are beautiful and successful women and I pray nothing like this ever happens to them.

[MineralMan]

46. Thanks for adding your story to the thread.

[Pepsidog]

49. Welcome. I always enjoy reading your posts.

[Rorey]

19. I always hated wearing dresses too.

I think most of us girls did when I was a kid. When I was in elementary school, the school actually implemented a "dress day" because apparently they thought we should look like "ladies" or something. I remember it being torture for the two "tom girls" in my class.

These days I own just a couple of dresses/skirts in case I need one for a wedding or something. And I haven't owned a girdle since junior high. They can't possible be healthy to wear.

[MineralMan]

23. Back in the 50s and early 60s, all girls had to wear

dresses or skirts. There was no "dress day," but once in awhile there was a "pants" day. My girlfriend stole a pair of my Levi's 501s for her own use, along with a plaid wool shirt. Drove my mother nuts. "Doesn't she have her own clothes?"

[Rorey]

58. I graduated in '72, so I guess I was part of that era

We were in a very cold climate (ND), so pants were more practical.

[raccoon]

51. A lot of women hated wearing that stuff. Especially in summer. Nt

[cwydro]

11. Yes, when I mentioned them to my mother, she laughed.

I was 10 or 11 and of course did not need ANY sort of bra.

Training bras, god what a joke.

[hostalover]

20. Well, I remember wearing undershirts seemingly like forever (!) while my friends were growing into

bras. I didn't get teased, but when I finally graduated into a (probably 32AAA) bra, I was elated!

[MineralMan]

24. A Rite of Passage...

[greymattermom]

25. Girdles held up your stockings

and were equal to those stupid garter belts to me. And, you had to wear stockings if you wore a dress with nice shoes, so you HAD to wear one of those things. I can remember when panty hose were liberating.

[MoonRiver]

41. It was all total insanity!

Edit: The real liberation for me was KNEE HIGHS! Of course you couldn't wear a mini skirt, but with everything else, woohoo!

[MineralMan]

52. About the time I got out of high school, pantyhose had taken over.

I'm sure a lot of girls and women tossed those girdles in the trash shortly after that.

I remember the pantyhose that came in a plastic egg at the store. "L'Eggs" I think they were called.

[MoonRiver]

59. Yes, I got plenty of those!

Still hated pulling them on, while worrying about runs, UGH. Knee highs were/are the best if you're wearing something that goes down below the knees. I also now love trouser socks during the winter.

[MineralMan]

60. I guess I never really understood the need for sheer hosiery.

It always seemed to be "gilding the lily," more or less. Particularly on high school age girls. I never did see the reason for it.

[MoonRiver]

61. I didn't either, but apparently the PTB did.

Now I wear sandals in the summer with no hose, and socks in the winter with close toed shoes. Simple and easy.

[MineralMan]

62. Things do get simpler as we get older, don't they?

[MoonRiver]

66. Yes, indeed.

Although I haven't worn heels higher than a half an inch for at least 40 years.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

38. OMGLMAO ! Hadn't thought of that in eons ! But just also thought

about using mirrors to look up skirts. The one and only time I remember the boys not laughing out loud was when we were square dancing and Laurie who had a broken arm in a cast fell and you could see her underpants. None of them laughed because she was injured. Wow, that was really pretty cool, guys.

[Stellar]

22. So I guess the #times up and the #me too, movement is over.

Men can do whatever the hell they want to women and their bodies, and there is nothing we can do about it but STFU and live with it.

[MineralMan]

26. No, I don't think so at all.

Instead, I think it's a time of education for men. It's long past due, too.

I think you may have misunderstood my post.

[Stellar]

64. I hope so...

I just cried about it. It frightens me.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

43. makes you almost consider joining the NRA :)

[Stellar]

63. LOL, never owned a gun but...

that is food for thought.

[japple]

48. Steller, I think you meant to post the sarcasm thingy

[Mr.Bill]

27. I probably missed out on some opportunities

with girls by being too shy and not picking up on the signals of their willingness. But you know what? At the age of 65 it's a lot easier to live with that in my past than to think I did something that was unwanted.

[MineralMan]

28. Yes. I agree.

Better not to have gone ahead than to have caused someone to be uncomfortable or fearful.

[rainbowsnunicorns]

29. Teenagers need to be careful

Teens need to be careful more now than ever. I pray my son grows up to be respectful towards girls just like I teach him but I know he'll have his temptations just as I did. Hopefully he doesn't become the victim of some sham allegations resulting from mixed signals.

[MineralMan]

30. Sham allegations? Temptations? That's not what I'm talking about.

And that's not why teens need to be careful. They need to be careful so they don't assault people sexually. Temptations are not licenses to do anything. Consent is the measurement. Active, freely-given, consent. Nothing less is OK. Period.

Do you know what active consent is? It's when someone takes your hand and moves it somewhere. That's active consent. Or it's saying, "You could do this or that if you want." That's freely-given consent. No assumptions. No guesswork. A guy can also ask directly. "Would it be OK if I...?" The only answer that is consent is an affirmative one. "Sure." "Yes." "Absolutely." "I thought you'd never ask." "I guess so" isn't consent. "Oh, alright" isn't consent. Active, freely-given consent is consent. Everything else is "No."

[demmiblue]

34. Buh-bye. n/t

[Laura PourMeADrink]

42. Ditto ! How'd this one slip through? You don't have to be a donor anymore?

[demmiblue]

47. I have no idea.

I mean really DU jurists?! Pretty obvious.

(I am not understanding the donor part. I am not a donor)

[zentrum]

33. Actually the problem

...started way before HS.

We girls had problems beginning in grade school. The classroom closet was a treacherous place when several of them cornered you. We had no words, no paradigm for how to handle this. Though we girls talked to each other about the problem, we just went on----as if nothing had happened. No one from the outside would have had any idea.

[GoCubsGo]

36. And, it never stops.

I was groped by a stranger when I was in my twenties. That guy was well past high school age. I'm pushing 60, and I still get lewd comments about my breasts. I don't expect I'll see the end of this kind of shit in my lifetime.

[zentrum]

65. Yup. It's about

....dominance.

[saidsimplesimon]

37. The fact that

you and your lovely wife decided not to have children makes this diary ever so sad for me. imo, you read like a person who really should pass your great compassion, knowledge and intellect to the next generation. Of course, DU is a surrogate for many "Great Expectations".

My daughter was an "accident" that turned out to be the inspiration for my life.

[Turin_C3PO]

39. I'm ashamed.

When I was 16 at a party, I got drunk for the first time ( NO EXCUSE!) and grabbed a girl’s butt who was passing by me. She turned around and slapped the shit outta me, very deservedly so. I was so ashamed of my behavior. I apologized to her, but that absolutely didn’t excuse my loutish behavior.

To this day, I look back with absolute shame and embarrassment that I did such a thing.

[True Blue American]

72. Could not help but laugh

At that one. that girl gave you an important life lesson.

My Husband was more blunt in his speech to his Sons. You are responsible for your actions. Does mot matter if you are in a crowd, anything, you are responsible.

[Turin_C3PO]

73. LOL she sure did!

[True Blue American]

74. I have to ask. Do you remember her name?

I would think that would be engraved. Still laughing. Not much to laugh about today, but you did it!

[Turin_C3PO]

75. Yes I do.

I reached out to her and apologized on FB but she couldn’t remember the specific incident. She told me that stuff happened to her frequently, unfortunately. It made me sad to think of that type of crap as a common occurrence

[Laura PourMeADrink]

40. Grew up in CT but now live in red TX - definite difference in the way

guys act and the female view - here anyway. Here, it seems like the men and women treat men as the superior gender. At parties, women are relegated to the kitchen while the men relax in a group outside waiting to be fed. My FIL won't even get up to get his own iced tea.

The older generation think it's a man's god given right to have sex whenever they want. And, if ever a women complains - THEY are likely lying or "came on" to the guy. No sympathy whatsoever for the women. So, not surprised at all that many are siding with BK.

That said, think the younger generation IS different. See my nieces and nephews doing more things in groups - as friends. And, I have read that for BK and his boys school - it is too unnatural to separate boys from girls at puberty and beyond. Because they didn't get to know the opposite sex as a "friend" first.

[MineralMan]

44. There is a wide range of behavior patterns everywhere.

I definitely agree with you about single-sex schools. I think they take away the chance for kids to have friends of both sexes, which can lead to a lack of understanding and feelings of superiority for some. I think it's generally a bad idea.

[mopinko]

50. it's a lot more fun w consent.

[MineralMan]

53. Most definitely.

Or at least I think so. I never did the non-consent thing.

[malaise]

56. Great post

Rec.

[MineralMan]

57. Thanks.

One of the things that helps me know that I'm OK is that I'm still on very good terms with everyone I've dated or been close to. I ran into all of the high school girlfriends at that 50th reunion, and had a great time talking to all of them. We all laughed at our teen romances. I even heard from a couple of people that they had crushes on me in high school - something I never knew at the time. When you're pushing 70, none of that matters any longer. Everyone has lived their lives and moved on from those days. All that's left is memories, good or bad.

[keithbvadu2]

68. Your original post... going out to the email list.

Your original post... going out to the email list.

Good one!

[MineralMan]

69. Thanks. That's high praise, indeed!

[Texin]

70. That type of behavior isn't the result of awkwardness and immaturity.

Sadly, men who act this way well into and throughout adulthood (Donny Doll Hands) for example, have an arrogant sense on entitlement. And many of these guys will target a woman whom they know they cam inflict such behaviors on with impunity.

[Alwaysna]

71. A point missed.

With males like Kavanaugh it's about having POWER AND CONTROL. It's about humiliating someone else. Just getting off isn't the end goal.