Are men really just finding out that many women experience sexual assault?

[milestogo]

Are male Senators just learning that most women live in fear of assault every day of their lives? How is this even possible?

[unblock]

1. Male privilege.

[Phoenix61]

5. +1,000

They are so completely clueless.

[MaryMagdaline]

2. Hell no. The senate halls are a rape gauntlet.

They’re just finding out that the shame dynamics are shifting ... women will call them out one day and they will be exposed.

[MaryMagdaline]

4. As to ordinary men? Possibly so

[marylandblue]

3. I only know because I actually listen to women

I imagine Republican senators are just not in the habit.

[Squinch]

6. Every time we put this in front of them, they seem to just find out. And then they seem to forget,

and then the next time we put it in front of them, it's a surprise all over again.

And many of those male Senators, and of course male Supreme Court justices, are perpetrators of those assaults.

They have memories like fish.

[MaryMagdaline]

15. I know! It's always Groundhog Day

[Pacifist Patriot]

34. Sure feels that way!

[qwlauren35]

17. Um, dear...

don't disparage the fish.

[Squinch]

25. LOL!

[ProudLib72]

38. Help! I found a fish swimming in my beer keg!

I've named him Brett.

[lindysalsagal]

7. Denial.

Not.A.River.In.Egypt.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

8. The patriarchy relies on men not thinking about it.

[Lithos]

9. No

Long story - short...

It's a case where they think it's par for the course...

For myself - I was immature when I grew up and made some mistakes - including relations with women. I regret and work hard to fix what I have done to the ability I can. Sometimes apologies are impossible to give.

I take responsibility.

This latter statement is the difference.

L-

[MaryMagdaline]

19. I imagine your testimony would have been serious and reflective

An explanation of growth, ummm something akin to grownup testimony!

[Lithos]

22. Thank you

I would hope it would have shown growth...

[janterry]

27. Thank you

This admissions and apologies have real meaning to women.

Thank you

[oberliner]

28. What mistakes did you make?

[Lithos]

31. Over extended my welcome

Never to the point of not taking no. But sometimes making that explicitly come up is a mistake and a violation of trust.

Part of it was not understanding social clues and not having very good social awareness. Today I might be considered a high functioning Aspie. It took me until my mid 20's before I developed enough skills here.

Kavanaugh represents the bullies who I have come across numerous times in my life.

[appalachiablue]

10. They. don't. care. They. don't. have. to.

[MaryMagdaline]

20. Yes.

[Marrah_Goodman]

21. This

[Turbineguy]

11. I had coffee with a colleague this week

and she explained it to me in some detail. Think, plan, situational awareness, never let down your guard.

[mythology]

12. I think many guys struggle with it

Those of us who were taught better generally don't hang around guys who commit sexual assault. I can't think of a single one of my friends (admittedly a rather small group) who I would think are capable of it. I don't know any guys who brag about getting laid, much less talk about getting a woman drunk to do so for example.

For guys who weren't taught to be proactive about things like consent, many of them struggle with it because they don't want to admit that maybe they were wrong in the past and we need to sort of be the hero of our own story. Taking accountability is hard. Oh she wasn't that drunk, well she flirted so I took it, oh it was just a little grope etc. Look how many people here say that Clinton wasn't wrong for having sex with an intern.

And then there are the guys who are openly sexual predators.

But also I think that the culture of shame and not believing victims that makes women (and male victims) unwilling to come forward hurts men's ability to comprehend. Not blaming victims, but because we may not know that our friend got groped on the bus, or her boss threatened to fire her if she didn't have sex with him, or she was raped etc, so we don't hear the day to day barrage that women live with. And that's why we need a culture of believing victims making it safe for them to come forward, even when the accused is somebody we like. Because there are very few false claims and far too many victims of sexual violence.

[pampango]

26. Many guys who have not committed sexual assault and don't hang around with

guys who have (or have learned to hide the fact that they have) can still be aware that it is a massive problem in the same way they are aware of the mistreatment of AA’s by police or the harassment of Hispanics because the ‘look illegal’ or the repression suffered by the LBTQ community.

It helps if you have family or friends who can testify personally about such violence and repression but many have learned not to do that. Without testimony from people you love and/or trust, many are left attempting to understand what is a huge issue that they think does not affect them personally - like invading Iraq if you don’t have a soldier in the family or banning refugees if you don’t really know any people fleeing war and poverty.

You can still understand the issue and support the people who are suffering but but it is different process than when it affects you or those close to you directly.

[spooky3]

13. Here is another life difference I have not seen mentioned--and it is an expensive one.

Every city has its "transitioning" (or worse) areas where you can buy a house for much less than a similar house in a "nicer" neighborhood. Women, especially single women, almost always consider the safety of an area when buying a house (and maybe also when renting). They don't want to walk home from the bus or metro stop at night or pull into their driveways and risk an attack. They want to run or walk in the evening. This means they must pay a premium for housing. Men, on the other hand, can be "urban pioneers" without having to worry to the same extent about safety.

[milestogo]

14. You've got that right.

Having a dog is a lifestyle choice too. I love dogs, but I also consider having a large dog necessary for my safety.

[MaryMagdaline]

16. Great point!

[spooky3]

18. Thank you, MaryMagdaline and milestogo! nt

[Permanut]

23. Naive old white guy here..

I wrongly assumed that since men have mothers, sisters, aunts, nieces and daughters, that they would expect, as I do, that most men would protect all women, since every woman is somebody's niece, daughter, mother, or aunt. The men I associate with have this mindset.

I'm grateful to you, Dr. Ford and so many others for coming forward.

[alarimer]

29. No, because women aren't people to them

Not even their relatives. Not people like men are people (to them). To men like this, women have no worth other than as something they own. “MY” wife, sister, whatever.

It is also why women are in more danger from people they know than actual strangers. Almost every single one of the #MeToo stories have been perpetrated by men they know. Bosses, or guys they work with, “friends”, etc.

Even your framing is a little problematic. Women don’t need protecting by their relatives or friends, when it is those relatives or friends/neighbors/pastors who are statistically more likely to harm them and get away with it. What they need more than anything is to be treated as a fully actualizef human being, not some extension of a man. And also to be believed.

[Permanut]

32. Point taken..

Thanks for your reply.

About framing. I get what you're saying about relatives or friends/neighbors/pastors; those are facts, and I have great respect for facts. My framing about protecting women is based on a couple of things:

My own experience. My wife of 30 years was abused in a former marriage. I became involved when he had not quite decided to accept a divorce, and was harassing her. I persuaded him to leave town, and he has never come back. Not just a macho thing, that was something I could do that she could not. And no one has touched her without her permission for those 30 years. Okay, maybe it is a macho thing.

Second, I have the opportunity, based on just physical size, to be a protector; and most men are equally able. I consider it just, well, right, to use that ability whenever circumstances occur.

None of this is intended to counter your remarks in any way, I get what you're saying. I'm just one old white guy; the larger discussion is as you say, about how women are treated by ALL of society. I'm glad to see the discussion growing.

[alarimer]

36. I get it.

I didn't mean to pick on you. Lots of things get my back up these day. I'm never not angry, it seems.

This has been a very trying time. I suspect more men that I would have thought have actually done things like Kavanaugh did. Which makes me sad.

[Permanut]

37. Not feeling picked on..

just treading carefully in a mine field where I have not walked in any of the victims' shoes, and never will. I hear you about the anger; I don't understand how ONE military or veteran could support Mango Mussolini after his treatment of the Kahn family. (Veteran here). Anger about that, and a whole list of other things relating to the last election. But that's a subject for another thread.

I'm truly glad to talk to you in this thread. I would say I"m delighted to see this subject grow like it is doing, but I'm not sure delight is the exact perfect word.

[vercetti2021]

24. No

My mother was a victim. Her boss harassed her constantly and she told me and my step father later on, I know it happens all the time. Luckily she didn't tell us when it was happening otherwise we would have probably killed the guy. But it goes to show how difficult it is for women and why they hide it for so long. The damage is forever.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

30. Yes. Because they have no clue what reality is like for women.

[Wounded Bear]

33. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt...

[cemaphonic]

35. I think that a lot of us just don't get how common it is, especially on a personal/emotional level.

It's one thing to see a statistic about sexual harassment or domestic abuse, and another to have it affect your life, or someone that you are close to.

I have always had as many women friends as men, and dislike any form of vulgar bro culture, so most of my male friends are pretty decent and empathetic guys. I also married to my college girlfriend, so I never experienced the whole twentysomething dating scene. (I also was born in the mid 70s, so informed consent was just starting to be heavily stressed when I hit college) So while I knew and cared about things like sexual assault as social problems, they didn't really touch the women in my life.

Haha, lol, no. Over the last two years, so many women in my circle have come forward with their own stories, and it just leaves me speechless every time. And I always feel regret that I didn't know at the time, but I get it. There is such pressure to put on a brave face and soldier on, and too many women have learned the painful lesson that even the trusted and reliable men in their lives are not always sympathetic, so they keep their mouths shut.

[ProudLib72]

39. What did Hatch mean by telling those women to "Grow up"?

Is it that he thinks men face similar situations and don't talk about them? Does he think women are just whiners?

There is a complete disconnect with Senate men. Maybe we should just have all female senators.

[musicblind]

40. To be honest, I did not know the extent of what you went through. I had no clue and I am sorry.

I am a gay man who grew up in a suburb. (And did have a sexual assault happen to me, but I thought it was because I was gay.)

I never "hung out" with most straight guys, so I didn't know what the culture was like. I also didn't have that many female friends.

I mean, I wasn't a total idiot. I knew it was bad and that women were treated like second-class citizens, but it wasn't until the #MeToo movement and the Trump era that I fully realized the extent.

I have to say, I was shocked. Just floored and I feel horrible about it. I wish I had known sooner, spoken out more, done more. I wish I could go back in time and tell my teenage self the things I know now. Just typing that line makes me tear up, because I was so wrong.

I thought it was a "minor" problem that happened to only a few. Not that any problem is minor.

But I had no idea. I swear to God.

However, I will never make that mistake again. The way women are treated in this world, in 2018 of all times, is appalling.

I don't know how anyone could see the thing we have seen and learn the thing we have learned and not feel sick to their stomach.

The women who came forward and opened my eyes and the eyes of others, they are heroes for sharing their stories.