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brush
(53,791 posts)The sentiment towards the welfare of women is good but the word choices—unfortunate.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)Yoko Ono is?
HAB911
(8,904 posts)brush
(53,791 posts)The use of the n-word is problematic here in 2018.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)it's a pretty powerful work that has always been controversial. I feel it invokes the same impulse that would ban Huck Finn due to language.
brush
(53,791 posts)tonedevil
(3,022 posts)The song is kind of brutal and there is always danger of giving offense if you use provocative language. I just think it is a true and important message.
brush
(53,791 posts)using the n-word.
It's not rocket fucking science. Instead of spelling it out just sub in "n-word". Its not that complicated.
Why offend people?
I'm African American and I'm offended by it. I'd think Bette would be more sensitive to this issue. Ono, I don't know, seems she was all about creating controversy. It wasn't appropriate back then either.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)what is offensive in that phrase/song. Woman is the n-word of the world, is not a less offensive message. It still compares the position of women in the world with that of black people. If one is going to make the analogy one should own it.
brush
(53,791 posts)tonedevil
(3,022 posts)use it dont pussyfoot around trying to come up with a clever way to say it without saying it. (ie. n-word).
brush
(53,791 posts)Thanks for letting us know where you stand.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)using n-word as a substitute? The offense is in the meaning not the word.
brush
(53,791 posts)on racial issues. Don't assume you know what is best for us. All progressives should be way past that platonic shit.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)I am a white male so even I feel free to disregard my opinion on such matters. For my own part I do not use either form as I can't imagine either one coming from me and not being terribly disrespectful and offensive. That said, I see nothing better about using the first letter a '-' and the word 'word' as a representation. To me it retains all the connotation with a sticky coating of deceit added to the mix.
brush
(53,791 posts)Sounds too much like people who want to openly use it.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)I don't use the expression in any form so I got that going for me. I'm pretty firm on people owning what they say even if what they say is offensive. How else do you know where someone stands? If one genuinely comes to regret previous statements sincerely apologizing is a good way to approach redemption. Simply using softer language to say the same thing doesn't change the sentiment.
Response to tonedevil (Reply #47)
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violetpastille
(1,483 posts)The language presupposes that "women" are white.
White Feminists need to stop always centering themselves.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Suggesting that women are the "n-word" of the world completely ignores the fact that the "n-word" includes black women.
In other words, the entire sentiment is really about white women and how their suffering is supposedly equivalent to the suffering of black people, which is bullshit and also insulting to and dismissive of black women.
The entire sentiment is effed up, not just the use of the word.
brush
(53,791 posts)An AA male.
melman
(7,681 posts)
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)quite conflicted by the song for exactly the reasons you have laid out. It wants to describe the situation of women the world over, but in its privileged blindness doesn't give regard to the people used as comparison. In 1972 when it came out I was quite a fan of John and Yoko it wasn't until recently I realized the ignorance expressed in that song.
BlueTsunami2018
(3,493 posts)There is nothing at all wrong with her tweet. For Christ sakes, that song is a lament about the poor treatment of women. It’s entirely appropriate for the environment we’re in with these misogynistic assholes.
BigOleDummy
(2,270 posts)… I agree with you 100%. Hell, as I read the first tweet I thought that the issue she was apologizing for was going to be not crediting Yoko for the quote!
itcfish
(1,828 posts)from John Lennon in the 70's
BigmanPigman
(51,611 posts)"Woman Is Nigger Of The World", John Lennon, I have that album. Cool! Then I realized that most people don't know of it and the context in which it was written and recorded.
Oct 6, 2011 · In 1969, Yoko Ono coined the phrase, and I quote, “Woman is the N****R of the World.” Shortly thereafter, she and her husband, the late John Lennon, wrote and he recorded a song with that ...
YOKO ONO SONGS
JOHN LENNON SONGS
Woman is the nigger of the world
Yes she is, think about it
Woman is the nigger of the world
Think about it, do something about it
We make her paint her face and dance
If she won't be aslave, we say that she don't love us
If she's real, we say she's trying to be a man
While putting her down we pretend that she is above us
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Ah yeah, better scream about it
We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother hen
We tell her home is the only place she should be
Then we complain that she's too unworldly to be our friend
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Oh woman is the slave to the slaves
Yeah, alright
We insult her everyday on TV
And wonder why she has no guts or confidence
When she's young we kill her will to be free
While telling her not to be so smart we put her down for being so dumb
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Yes she is, if you believe me, you better scream about it
We make her paint her face and dance
We make her paint her face and dance
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)HAB911
(8,904 posts)
byronius
(7,395 posts)
2naSalit
(86,649 posts)I think any mistake might have been in not citing it for those who wouldn't know right away.
Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)people felt anger about the sentiment, and for good reason. The sentiment compares the suffering of two suppressed groups and marginalizes one for the other. And I've seen many black women tweet angrily about the sentiment and Midler's tweet, even though the original quote came from John and Yoko. Bette listened and apologized. Don't you think that is what we should all do rather than double/triple/quadruple down on this?
Behind the Aegis
(53,961 posts)And how often does this happen? I have seen, many times, "so and so are the new Jews." Analogies are just that analogies. They aren't meant to say one group has it worse (or better), but to draw comparisons to the plight of one group of people by drawing comparisons to another for which more people may be more familiar. Is it right? I don't know, because I find it offensive when I see the "they are the new Jews" remarks, but I have never seen outrage over it, nor have I ever seen anyone apologize, much less care enough to do so, only those who say "get over it, it is just an analogy."
Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)It's an interesting discussion. I understand why you would find "they are the new Jews" offensive, and the lack of outrage from other groups would be frustrating.
I don't like the idea of pitting groups against each other. Last night when I was made aware of Midler's tweet, I saw a bunch of "Oh HELL NO!" responses. And a little discussion about why it was offensive. I'm a female, but not african american. I took it as a learning moment. I feel aggrieved currently, but also would never compare my position of relative privilege to that of the history of black people in our country or around the world. It's a very different experience. The analogy is just an analogy, but I also appreciate that Midler realized how upsetting it was to a number of people and apologized for putting the analogy out there.
That's something a lot of people refuse to do. Accept that their actions, even if intentions were good, may have hurt someone and apologize. Taking ownership and being willing to listen seems almost revolutionary right now. It's certainly what our leadership is showing us.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)There are an estimated 40 million people living in slavery today. 71% are women. They make up almost the entire population of those is sex slavery and forced marriage. If people are reacting angrily, I would want to explain those numbers.
And while the Republican party would be happy to have blacks live as second class citizens, I also don't see any major groups like ISIS forming and openly enslaving black people for being black like the do to women for being women.
I wouldn't use the quote because I know people would react instinctively to the word itself, but that doesn't make the comparison invalid.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)
leftyladyfrommo
(18,868 posts)The words may not be PC any more but she is right. The plight of women all over the world is heart breaking.
And women can't wait for men to change it. We are going to
have to change it ourselves. Being awful to women can no longer be PC. And men who don't recognize that are just going to have to get out of the way.
MFM008
(19,818 posts)Perfectly.
Fullduplexxx
(7,865 posts)
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Perhaps inartfully phrased. I hadn’t realized that was an actual quote, though.
To a lot of men, women are not actually people. THIS is the crux of it.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Would that make any sense at all? Do you think that women would find such a comparison offensive?
RobinA
(9,893 posts)she’d know exactly what was meant.
riversedge
(70,242 posts)
bdamomma
(63,877 posts)nt
She understands the struggle of what women face, doesn't matter what colour. We are a sisterhood. Just my opinion.
Oneironaut
(5,504 posts)I remember when I knew everything in college too.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I was offended by it when they first said it 45 years ago.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... to. I don't think Midler or Yoko Ono, for that matter, need to apologize.
This reminds me of the professor who lived in some part of NYC that was being gentrified and told his class "It makes me want to resign from the white race." He was villified enough on social media for being racist that it became a serious problem.
Crazy world.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)world"?
No.
MountCleaners
(1,148 posts)This was never a good idea, and it shows the problem with a lot of celebrity white women. They make statements that are really culturally biased. Just NO. She wasn't thinking of her audience and her "anger" is no excuse.
I'm an admirer of Yoko Ono but never liked this quote. It's kind of culturally biased to berate people for not knowing that it came from a John Lennon song. What's important to you is not necessarily important to everyone else. It's not a particularly well-known album anyway.
violetpastille
(1,483 posts)I know who John Lennon is.
I don't take his words as Gospel, however and I don't think that makes me ignorant of history.
WeekiWater
(3,259 posts)
HipChick
(25,485 posts)WeekiWater
(3,259 posts)There was no shortage of women being raped then or now.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)for centuries?
WeekiWater
(3,259 posts)All women for centuries have been less than. I get what you are saying but I see no reason for her to apologize. All women are oppressed. She could have said it in a better way but she didn’t. Women have been owned to different degrees throughout history.
Kav won’t be taking rights from specific women, he will be taking them from women. That will harm the socioeconomically challenged the most. Minorities and women.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)will continue to take for granted.
Black women and white women do NOT hold equitable places in our society and most black women I know are sick and tired of white women who revel in their privilege and enable and align with a white patriarchy when they think it benefits them and then try to wrap themselves in cloak of our oppression when it suits their purposes.
RobinA
(9,893 posts)misunderstand? I’ve often wondered.
violetpastille
(1,483 posts)Called "Out of the House of Bondage - Transformation of the Plantation Household".
After reading it I can state, "White Women are the White Men of Women".
We need to do better. We need to listen. We need to stop centering ourselves.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I love her to death. But that was stupid and insulting.
Adenoid_Hynkel
(14,093 posts)A white guy has no business using that racist word, under the flag of supporting women, especially when he's known for beating both of his wives and both of his sons.
eleny
(46,166 posts)Life is a school and Midler is still learning without fighting the lesson.
maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)The message is relevant even if the words offend.
MountCleaners
(1,148 posts)Patti Smith, John Lennon and Yoko Ono shouldn't be taken as gospel. Patti Smith used the "n-word" to be edgy. Seemed to be a thing for creative white people in the sixties and seventies. But every white artist using it needs to think about their privilege. Personally, Smith's song makes me cringe for the hippie naivete.
Says a lot that these artists get more respect from people than black artists. If Patti Smith wanted to give respect to black artists like Jimi Hendrix, she should take a back seat to them. She can't speak to racism better than a black person. Again, not everyone knows about or likes these artists - why should people be expected to genuflect at the mention of their names? Personally, I'd rather listen to Funkadelic records than Patti Smith any day.
maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)I don't know what you're talking about "these artists get more respect.. than black artists". Not from me; I listen to both Smith and Funkadelic. From Whipipo in general? My impression was that Smith is revered, and so is George Clinton.
How exactly would Smith go about "taking a back seat" to a person that's been dead over 40 years? Recite a Mea Culpa at the start of every show?
tymorial
(3,433 posts)RobinA
(9,893 posts)in the hopes of not getting her head bashed in by the thought police.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)try to do better - unlike some people on DU who believe they should be able to say whatever they please, regardless how offensive, without any consequence and have bought into the notion that being called out for insensitivity is the equivalent of "getting their heads bashed in by the thought police."
TexasBushwhacker
(20,202 posts)I did a "reply all" to an e-mail that included him, but I didn't address him, or anyone else, personally by name. He wrote back and said he felt "disrespected". I apologized, but I wish I had the ovaries to tell him I feel "disrespected" on a daily basis as a female.