Can someone help me out with Forbes' immigration BS?

[liberalnarb]

A Forbes article I came across from months ago by Chris Conover makes the claim that Americans $18.5 billion in federal taxes goes to healthcare for "unauthorized immigrants". The premise revolves around emergency room visits and "cost shifting". I've been searching around trying to debunk this but I'm not getting results for the specific claims. Can someone help me with this? Whats the truth about these claims?

[Xipe Totec]

1. You can't prove a negative

The article shows no supporting documentation for the claims.

Because there is no supporting documentation for those claims.

So you can't very well find documentation that disproves an unfounded claim.

[liberalnarb]

2. Is it all made up?

Or more twisting of facts?

[Xipe Totec]

4. Who can say? The point is extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof

And they present none.

[liberalnarb]

3. The reason I ask is

it really bothers me when I come across something like this that I know is likely false or misleading but I'm not well versed enough in the details of the subject matter to disprove.

[Xipe Totec]

6. Suppose I tell you there's extraterrestrials hiding in your garage

You'd probably conclude that's a lie.

And now I tell you: Prove it. Prove that it's a lie.

How do you go about proving that what I said is false?

[liberalnarb]

8. I guess I'm just trying to come to a conclusion for my peace of mind.

Are the numbers he throws up made up? He references the Kaiser family foundation a lot. Is he being misleading with the stats in an attempt to promote xenophobia?

[Xipe Totec]

9. You're not listening. nt

[mr_lebowski]

12. Actually, you're misapplying the 'proof of a negative' logical argument ... no offense ... see below

[mr_lebowski]

11. There is actually a positive claim being made here ...

"the claim that Americans $18.5 billion in federal taxes goes to healthcare for "unauthorized immigrants".

Refuting this does not require 'proving a negative'.

You simply have to prove ... that the $18.5B figure is inaccurate (presumably the point would be to show that it's higher than reality).

Obviously you'd be greatly helped in this task if given the actual source/study, but it's technically not necessary.

The impossible task of 'proving a negative' applies to situations like 'prove that there is no God' ...

GRANTED, it's equally valid in this particular situation, as you point out, to simply say ... "Bullshit that is the amount of money is spent, you've cited no proof, and burden of proof is on you for making the claim!"

But unlike with the 'prove there's no God' scenario, there are physical, real numbers that the person refuting the claim ... could use/rely upon ... to show the $18.5B is inaccurate.

You don't have a 'prove a negative' scenario here is all I'm saying ... you have a 'prove an unbacked-but-positive claim is false' ... which is different

[Hoyt]

5. I don't doubt money goes to poor immigrants, but I don't care because we all

get a return from it, economically, morally, . . . . . . many times over. White wingers use such lies to spread hatred and divisiveness.

[liberalnarb]

7. And I'm pretty sure undocumented immigrants have contributed in tax dollars

a hell of a lot more than $18.5 billion. This stuff really gets under my skin. The same heartless asshole that authored the piece wrote another about why "Citizens should not subsidize unauthorized immigrant healthcare" F-ing a-hole sounds like a trumpster.

[Cicada]

14. Typical Ca undocumented pays more than 30% tax

Three fourths of the undocumented, according to social security experts, work in the books, as opposed to under the table. Employers send 15.3% of compensation to the irs for social security and Medicare, for which they get nothing back. Employees have half the 15.3% withheld from wages while employers match that. But economists say in a real economic way employees pay both halves. Without the requirement that employers send in half wages would just rise that amount, according to economists. So in a real sense employees pay both halves. Then unemployment tax is sent in on the first 7000 per year, maybe 6%. The s and mc tax sent in totals more than $200 billion. Google suspense fund for details. One of the tax foundations calculates state and local taxes in CA for undocumented exceed 8%. Sales tax, gas tax, car tax, booze tax, real estate tax. Many undocumented own homes. Others pay rent from which real estate tax is paid. Other fed taxes also like gas tax , booze tax, phone taxes etc. total over 30% of compensation for tax. Surprisingly many undocumented file income tax returns. Anyone on earth can get an IRS taxpayer identification number, not the same as a social security number, but also nine digits. That taxpayer ID number can be used to file tax returns. Undocumented actually have a legal obligation to file tax returns, using the tin. And some do so they can prove compliance with laws in possible future application for legal status. So 14 billion for emergency health care and pregnancy health care seems correct, it’s only about $100 per month per capita, little more. But taxes paid way exceed that by a huge amount.

[sfwriter]

10. Here is the source... and here are some data that prove it is bogus, BECAUSE IMMIGRANTS PAY TAXES!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2018/02/26/how-american-citizens-finance-health-care-for-undocumented-immigrants/#3fd20a1b12c4

"ll told, Americans cross-subsidize health care for unauthorized immigrants to the tune of $18.5 billion a year . Of this total, federal taxpayers provided $11.2 billion in subsidized care to unauthorized immigrants in 2016 ."

But they PAY far more than that in taxes, about $48 billion: (and all of these numbers are for different years, but should give us an idea of the scale of the difference)

$23.6 billion in income tax
$13 billion in social security (12 of that unclaimed, meaning they are never collecting those benefits)
$11.74 billion in State, local and use taxes

"The most recent IRS data, from 2015, shows that the agency received 4.4 million income tax returns from workers who don’t have Social Security numbers, which includes a large number of undocumented immigrants. That year, they paid $23.6 billion in income taxes."

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/13/17229018/undocumented-immigrants-pay-taxes

"Stephen Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration, estimates that about 1.8 million immigrants were working with fake or stolen Social Security cards in 2010, and he expects that number to reach 3.4 million by 2040. He calculates that undocumented immigrants paid $13 billion into the retirement trust fund that year, and only got about $1 billion in benefits. “We estimate that earnings by unauthorized immigrants result in a net positive effect on Social Security financial status generally, and that this effect contributed roughly $12 billion to the cash flow of the program for 2010,” Gross concluded in a 2013 review of the impact of undocumented immigrants on Social Security."

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/

"In fact, like all others living and working in the United States, undocumented immigrants are taxpayers too and collectively contribute an estimated $11.74 billion to state and local coffers each year via a combination of sales and excise, personal income, and property taxes, according to Undocumented Immigrants’ State and Local Tax Contributions by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy."

https://itep.org/immigration/

[liberalnarb]

13. Thanks. I thought that was the case.

Immigrants, documented or undocumented, contribute much more to our communities than they withdraw. We need to fight for their rights in these awful times and stand in solidarity.