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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTrying to get a good grasp of the Manafort news implications
Last edited Tue Nov 27, 2018, 01:28 AM - Edit history (1)
We should know more in 10 days, but for now:
1) Manafort was caught lying. How?
a) Mueller knew from the beginning about the lies
b) Mueller got new info since Manafort's plea deal
If a) is true, it suggests that Manafort may have been "set-up", perhaps so that he would feed disinfo back to Trump (?).
How would that work? Manafort would have to be convinced that his lies we're believed by Mueller, and those lies then communicated to Trump as, so to speak, having been "vetted" as reliable enough for Trump to repeat to Mueller.
The timing supports this interpretation (being busted so soon after Trump turned in his homework).
If b) is true, I suppose the same conclusion above could apply; however, it removes much of the "set-up" scenario
Or, there is no additional story, just that Manafort got caught. That must also be a possibility.
2) Why would Manafort do that?
a) it's his nature
b) he believed he'd be pardoned
c) he thought he was smarter than Mueller
My head is spinning, trying to sort this out. Can anyone add more logical points, or correct any above? TIA
ETA: The "10 days" comment was an error, from a misreading of the post in LBN.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142210887
The last line of that post was a headline from 10 days ago... Doh!
Sanity Claws
(21,849 posts)But if so, Manafort must have known that and realized that he would be caught in lies.
I can't figure this out either.
AndJusticeForSome
(537 posts)I didn't even consider Gates in my equation, lol... Thanks
dawg day
(7,947 posts)I hope Virginia and NY have secretly indicted him for state tax evasion. Trump can't pardon him for that.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)AndJusticeForSome
(537 posts)Thanks for the heads-up
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)elfin
(6,262 posts)As just said by Howard Littman on O'Donnell
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)He is proof that trump surrounds himself with sleazy crooks, but I'm not sure he has ever been charged with anything directly leading to trump being elected. I'm sure Mueller thinks he might know something, but Mueller sure hasn't charged Manafort with that, at least yet.
Like most of this mess, I hope I'm wrong and Manafort has tapes, or other evidence, of trump telling Putin he will wreck America for help in getting elected and not militarily oppose anything Putin wants while trump is in office.
If Mueller has a bead on that, I think Mueller would have moved much faster to stop trump.
AndJusticeForSome
(537 posts)These things would be done with a wink and a nod. I'm certainly not expecting any taped confession of collusion.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)think Mueller can prove the wink and a nod, or even that Ruskies or other countries have trump by the financial scrotum.
The most likely way to get trump is find something abhorrent to one-third to one-half of the ignorant white wingers who still support trump. Maybe, 25% if they scream loud enough to their GOPer Senator.
And, I'm not sure Mueller is that bent on taking trump down. I really don't care that Mueller was a hero soldier in Asian, during that godforsaken war. That was a long time ago, and doesn't give me comfort.
I think we are for the same thing in the end, but I learned by lesson during Fitzmas. I'm hoping There have been several times I thought they had trump cold, and I did a little dance.
AndJusticeForSome
(537 posts)I have to consciously push it from my mind when thinking about Trump/Mueller.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)But, I do look first think every morning to see if Mueller threw trump up against the wall, or at least called a press conference to announce evidence of possible charges, including treason.
rampartc
(5,407 posts)they want tp do do things as abhorrent as trump does, and enjoy their vicarious crooked business deals and sex with porno stars so much that they will remember trump's experiences as their pwn.
GumboYaYa
(5,942 posts)Trump. Then Trump wrote his responses to Mueller to correspond with the information Manafort was giving Mueller. McGahn dropped a dime on Manafort and Trump. Mueller delayed filing until after he had responses from Trump.
AndJusticeForSome
(537 posts)The joint defense agreement thing between Trump and Manafort is surely part of the picture!
Volaris
(10,271 posts)OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, pure and simple.
Bets on how long it will take Short-fingers to figure out how fucked he is now? I'mma go with ....by Friday.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Volaris
(10,271 posts)Because if there's a money laundering and (please please please) A RICO indictment in there anywhere, it means the GOP as a party can't run from it.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)I dont think we get him. Again, hope Im wrong, but RICO aint going to do it.
Volaris
(10,271 posts)Mueller is going to show that Trump took the dirty money.
The quid pro quo for that money is going to come from the House investigations, I suspect.
By the time this is done , Trump will either be unelected or impeached , and either way he can THEN be prosecuted.
'Donald Trump will die in prison.'--Malcome Nance.
A Rico charge will implicate every single republican who took the dirty money,...doesn't matter if they knew it was dirty or not.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)impedes him somewhat, thats good.
Prosecutors will never find a jury that wont hang from a few ignorant white wingers supporting their boy.
GumboYaYa
(5,942 posts)Grasswire2
(13,570 posts)Smarter than the average bear, Mueller.
EllieBC
(3,014 posts)The arrogance is incredible.
AndJusticeForSome
(537 posts)But now that you mention it... Good point
Jarqui
(10,125 posts)Mueller has been trying to get Trump on the record for many months - I think they had a verbal Q & A scheduled for January 2018 that Trump canceled.
The Manafort case proceeds. Mueller presents very good cases for the 18 charges in Virginia - lots of documentation to back them up. Mueller gets 8 convictions with a good shot at 10 more after the mistrial in Virginia based upon one juror who voted against 10 convictions. Before the DC case, Manafort enters a guilty plea after he cuts a deal to reveal what he knows to Mueller.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/14/politics/paul-manafort-guilty-plea/index.html
Manafort pleaded guilty in federal court in Washington, DC, on Friday to one count of conspiracy against the US and one count of conspiracy to obstruct justice due to attempts to tamper with witnesses.
So while Manafort is supposedly cooperating, Trump loses the midterms and figures it is a good time to work on written answers to some of Muellers questions - which he does.
As it gets close to Mueller getting those answers, on Nov 16th, Mueller asks for a delay of 10 days to provide more details to the judge for sentencing
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-16/mueller-promises-judge-more-details-on-manafort-case-in-10-days
which the judge grants
On Nov 20th: Trump sends finished written answers to Mueller
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/20/politics/trump-mueller-questions-done/index.html
Today, ten days after his request for ten days, Mueller reports Manafort lying and the deal is off
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/26/politics/paul-manafort-breach-agreement-mueller/index.html
Manafort was convicted of obstruction of justice via witness tampering in his DC case.
Papadopoulos, Corsi and Manafort have all suddently got nervy with Mueller. Could they have been promised pardons ...?
If there was a back channel between Manafort & Trump and Trump is led to believe by Manafort that Mueller is buying Manafort's lies ... maybe that the two parties cooked together ... as Trump prepares his written answers for Mueller ... that could present quite a problem for Trump because he'd be telling Mueller Manafort's lies that Mueller already knows are lies.
What smells on the surface as not so good for Mueller by outward appearances, it could be really bad news for Trump (and great news for the rest of us and justice) if it is anything like the above. If Mueller has Trump lying to the Special Prosecutor ....
AndJusticeForSome
(537 posts)Manafort had been in a long-standing joint defense agreement with Trump and other witnesses in the special counsel investigation. Plea deals such as the one he struck Friday typically sever such agreements. Lawyers on both sides are still free to communicate, with some restrictions, but their discussions are no longer shielded from scrutiny by prosecutors.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/legal-team-still-confident-that-manafort-will-not-implicate-trump-giuliani-says/2018/09/17/1d2caf74-ba98-11e8-a8aa-860695e7f3fc_story.html?utm_term=.26688190ef4d
Jarqui
(10,125 posts)That's why there would have to be a back channel
It might be as simple as "off the record ..." and they sort it out agreeing that they will not tell the prosecutor
AndJusticeForSome
(537 posts)"Shielded" could mean "available upon request" or otherwise not-in-real-time.
I actually agree with the scenario you propose.
Iggo
(47,555 posts)Something like that.