GM made cars, and Americans didn't buy them

[Recursion]

I'm not sure what the people screaming at GM expect them to do.

They've made a product that we've made very clear we don't want to buy.

[sarcasmo]

1. Poor quality equals poor sales.

[Guppy]

3. I typically buy foreign

but in 2002 I bought a Buick LeSabre. We owned it for 16 years. It was a great car. I think all cars today are very good. My brother has been in the car industry his whole life. He did PR for Porsche. His opinion is Toyota is the best but all cars because of advanced manufacturing are now good. Ford is dropping out of the car market for trucks and SUV's.Trump's policies reward moving manufacturing out of this country.

[pstokely]

52. they've actually improved on quality

but the poor quality of 20 years ago created lifelong Toyota and Honda customers

[ProfessorGAC]

61. The Poor Quality Thing Goes Way Farther Back Than That

The shift to building worthwhile, reliable cars in the US began with the Iococca thing at Chrysler, followed almost immediately by Ford.

We bought either GM or Chryslers since the early 80's and have not had one car last under 200k.

[mobeau69]

54. Rump's reversal of Obama's CAFE standards along with his ill-thought out tariffs

greatly diminished Lordstown's chances of survival.

[Codeine]

67. The Chevy Cruze was a very well-regarded car

with high marks from customers and industry reviewers. It also dominated touring car racing for several years.

[ansible]

121. My brother has a 2014 Chevy Cruze, currently only 96k miles

It's already been to the dealership 5 times for various problems with the engine including dangerous coolant leaks and turbo failures. If it wasn't for the extended warranty he would be completely broke now from thousands of dollars in repair.

[madamesilverspurs]

102. Chances are

that if American workers were paid a real living wage, we'd "like" more cars. We'd also "like" better housing, and steak now and then. Without a decent income, a GM sedan might as well be a Rolls.


.

[RainCaster]

2. They still don't get it

The only vehicles GM makes that are being bought are trucks and suvs. That does not mean that is a people want, it just means that these are the only vehicles GM makes that people will buy. They are canceling almost every sedan model they make, at the time when US imports of sedans is rather high.
BMW, Kia, Toyota, Volvo, Jaguar, and others are doing very well selling sedans in this country. GM and Ford have given up. They are dying and we should let it happen. The labor unions that work with these dinosaurs need to have a big wake up call and get their people trained for other industries.

[Kaleva]

12. Here's a link to a site that gives info on vehicle sales.

Scroll down to the top 20 selling vehicles in March of this year. Mostly pickups, SUVs and crossovers.

http://www.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

[marybourg]

128. Toyota Camrys and Corollas are doing just fine according

to that list.

[Kaleva]

130. But sedans as a whole are not as their share of the market is shrinking.

As shown in the second graph.

[RKP5637]

15. Yep, they never have gotten it. They design, build and dump them on the market and then wonder

where are all the buyers.

[Historic NY]

16. What don't you understand, Ford will sell you a Mustang or SUV....

thats it they stopped all car production. GM is eliminating those that just do not sell enough models. In China they sell more than a 800000 vehicles a yr, Buicks. last year total sales of 4 million vehicles. Even the market is sliding there, down 15%. They will import cars from China under a rebadging. Trump hasn't helped with his tariffs, its cost them a billion, that they can't afford to lose.

[link:https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/25/ford-to-stop-selling-every-car-in-north-america-but-the-mustang-and-focus-active/|]
nobody said much..

Meanwhile Fiat Chrysler has made big changes no one seems to notice.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20181008/GLOBAL03/181009687/gm-china-sales-fall

If you can't sell it you might want to stop making them. All Trumps stamping his feet isn't going to help, he is the one that promised GM plant in Ohio not GM. Like Maytag.

[roamer65]

23. I'll buy a Subaru Impreza assembled in Indiana before I buy a Chinese GM.

The car has to be at least assembled in the USA for me.

[brush]

22. Let the auto industry die? Nuts. They're selling pickups and SUVs well.

Shutting down the auto industry, suppliers and business dependent upon auto workers patronage is the recipe for a deep depression.

You're talking about slashing hundreds of thousands of good jobs.

No way.

[Coventina]

26. It's also a matter of national security. The auto industry is just about the last heavy

manufacturing going on in the US.

If all heavy manufacturing goes away....that could be problematic.

[brush]

32. Yep, it would be a distinct disadvantage if a war arises.

No one wants that but to have to build factories to produce military vehicles is a losing proposition. The war could be over before we know what hit us.

Also if you have no auto industry, hell, we'd be almost a third world nation.

[Coventina]

48. Agreed.

[exboyfil]

82. Still lots of off road OEMs

manufacturing in the US. Airplanes and diesel engines as well.

[brush]

4. All one has to do is look at the vehicles on the street. Most are SUVs and Pickups.

The nation's preferences in vehicles has moved on. No more sedans or station wagons, even sleek coupes have given way to SUVs which give you front and rear seats as well as cargo room.

And if you need even more load capacity there are pickups with front and rear seats and even more cargo area.

Markets change but GM at least needs to make their vehicles hear in the US.

[Hoyt]

5. Had USA cars right up until I bought my first VW. So, much better if you could afford/do repairs.

But Ford and GM do know how to build SUVs and trucks for the American market, ones people seem to want. Although, I thought we'd gotten away from bigger vehicles.

Point is, they'll probably do better focusing on what they do best and people want. Of course, the employees will be hurt and some won't be able to adapt easily. But, then, some other workers will benefit in other areas of country. I think that is the real reason for "screaming." Everyone knows there is not much we can do about it, it's perverse economics, but it is one of those "chit, that could be me" sort of things.

[demtenjeep]

6. We are a JEEP family

Chrysler/Daimler

[Recursion]

7. We lease a Toyota, which was made in Alabama

The distinction between foreign/domestic is a lot weaker than people seem to think it is.

[demosincebirth]

45. Union made, too.

[Hangingon]

131. Now FIAT

They are now a subsidiary of Fiat Chrysler

[Kaleva]

8. Americans want cross overs, pickup trucks, SUVs and to a lesser extent, minivans.

[blueinredohio]

9. I'm a retired auto worker and I believe it's greed.

Trucks and suvs make more money so that's the way they're going to go. It's always about the dollar.

[Kaleva]

13. I for one will never buy another sedan again. It's crossovers for me.

I like the roominess, the height, and the greater cargo capacity.

[tammywammy]

17. Same here

I bought a small SUV in 2009. I like the height. I traded it in back in May for the 2018 version of the same car. When I drive my mom's Malibu, which is a nice car, I feel like I'm sitting so far down. I had a Nissan Altima as a rental in July and hated it. Way too low to the ground.

[Kaleva]

21. Some sedans I have trouble getting in an out of.

And it seems like my ass is just inches away from being ground off by the passing highway below.

[Bigredhunk]

83. Soooo this!

Exactly right.

Getting into/out of a car is hard if you have mobility issues (and/or are older), are tall, or are overweight. Getting into/out of (and loading supplies into/out of) a crossover or minivan is MUCH easier.

[LisaM]

101. Yes, we have small cars and I hate being on the highway now.

Especially in the rain, there are so many larger vehicles and they don't seem to care about the visibility of the smaller cars with all the water they throw up.

Not sure what the answer is. If I were going to get a new car now, it would most likely be a crossover.

It doesn't help at all when gas prices go down, because people like bigger cars and if gas isn't prohibitively expensive, they'll get the bigger cars.

[Wellstone ruled]

14. Ad to your comment this,

besides the Greed,the Plants in question are older less efficient and more costly to update both buildings and tooling.

[Submariner]

55. Exactly

Its got to be 5-10 times a day right now the ad plays of a husband bought a his and hers dark green Chevy Silverado club cab pickup and a monster Tahoe. Both big ticket rigs. Probably 50K-ish each.

[walkingman]

10. Let's face the facts - cheap oil has changed the preference of vehicles. It certainly has not helped

It certainly has not helped humanity on any climate change is real and the oil industry owns congress.

[Blue_true]

11. Sorry.

But any car that even occasionally have to be plugged in to recharge is not going to sell well. Most advanced societies have a get up and go mindset, anything that limits that simply won't be popular. Battery technology isn't at the point where a car can drive weeks or months without a charge, and even then, the downtime during charging need to be small.

[Quemado]

18. Completely agree

In my situation, an EV won't be practical until there is a huge development in battery technology that would enable an EV to travel 500 miles on a single charge; a 0-100% charge could be done in less than 10 minutes; and EV chargers are much more common than they are now.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

29. Yep. I make long drives several times a year

and the convenience of a gas-powered car that can be refilled in just a few minutes is crucial.

[Chuuku Davis]

50. You can rent for a trip

And have an EV for every day commuting

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

69. Alas, Honda doesn't do fleet cars,q

meaning there are no Hondas with any of the rental car companies.

Plus, I drive a stick, and rental cars are all automatics, which I do not like at all.

I actually do very little of what would be called day to day commuting, since I no longer work. So in ordinary times I only get gas every second or third week, and then when on one of my road trips, need to fill up every 300 or so miles. The cost of renting would probably me much more than I'd be willing or could really afford to pay.

Plus, given what I see as an extraordinarily high price for an entry-level Tesla ($35K), I'd be spending vastly more on car ownership and driving than I currently do.

Nope. I'll consider an electric car when they start costing what a Fit or a Civic or any similar car costs, and can be recharged as quickly and conveniently as a gas car.

[whopis01]

98. I've rented Hondas from Enterprise several times.

They may not be as prevalent as other cars, but you can find Hondas at rental car companies.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

99. Interesting, since an on-line search verifies that Honda does not do fleet sales.

I've even inquired about renting a Honda (and Enterprise is usually who I rent from) and they've never had them.

So not sure how you lucked out, but as a rule, Hondas aren't available to rent. And even if they were, they'd be automatics and I don't drive an automatic.

[whopis01]

104. You can even buy used Hondas from Enterprise

I'm not sure about Honda's fleet sales - but I know Enterprise has some. Like I said, not as much as other brands perhaps - but they are there.

https://www.enterprisecarsales.com/list/used-honda-vehicles-for-sale

I would think finding a stick shift to rent would be even harder.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

111. It's the stick shift thing that makes me hate it when I have to rent a car.

I will never be convinced that the car starting to move as soon as you take your foot off the brake is in any way safe.

[rockfordfile]

20. I own a GM car, as matter of fact, it's older than me, great car. I also

I also own a electric car. It's one of the best cars I have owned. One of my relatives just received their electric car. They love it.

It seems that the number one reason some people don't buy electric is cost. A Tesla can be a little more expensive.

[JCMach1]

44. Love my 2011 Volt

Awesome car...

Before that I owned the Buick Century that would die. I put 350k on it before I sold it to someone for $500. They drove it for God knows how long.



My Volt beats my wife's Prius in almost every way.

[allgood33]

47. We owned two GM Roadmasters (1995, 1998). Best sedan ever. Big and heavy as any SUV

We drove them until they started have trouble with tie-rods an suspension. One reached 218,000 and the other tapped out at 212,000. Best ride ever. I believe they both were the same suspension as caddies back in that day. Haven't had another sedan like them. We used to get all kinds of offers for them in 2001-2005.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

28. Not so. People in many other countries are buying electric cars by the thousands.

Interestingly, Norway has the world's largest electric car ownership per capita, and its fleet of electric cars is one of the world's cleanest because 99% of its power comes from hydropower. The thing is, Norway has a cold, wet, and generally terrible climate and mostly vertical real estate, so those cars must be pretty reliable to function under those conditions.

[TeamPooka]

36. America is a big country compared to those in Europe. Our requirements for cars and distance

driving are much different than Norways

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

38. Their distances aren't as short as you might think.

The country is very mountainous and there are no straight roads to anywhere., so what looks like a short distance on a map really isn't. We don't have many places in the US that have the same combination of hundreds of miles of steep mountain roads and lousy weather. My point is that those electric cars seem to be able to tolerate some very difficult driving conditions.

[TeamPooka]

39. I'm pro electric cars. I just think Americans use and treat cars differently than much of the world.

I grew up in a Ford dealership family and see it differently.
Also worked for chrysler for a while back in the 80s
Half my family wouldn't speak to me for 3 years.

[uponit7771]

68. They also have the infrastructure we will not

[rampartc]

59. if i can not drive from new orleans to shreveport or natchez

in heavy traffic at slow speed without stopping to charge (or gas up) i am accepting death for my wife and myself. can't take the chance.

[LakeSuperiorView]

80. EVs live in the area between densely packed public transportation and rural areas.

They are just not practical if one needs to drive long distances daily. More people working remotely gives some the option of an EV, but if one needs to commute 30 miles one way, it's tough to make one work.

[Blue_true]

95. Use practicality is just one of the issues with EVs.

Unless a person is 100% on hydro, wind or solar electric power, they are actually HURTING the environment by using EVs. Yes, they themselves see more miles per gallon, but if an energy balance is run back to the source of the electricity used to charge the EV people would be wiser to simply burn gasoline for the MPG that electricity provided. When carbon fuels are used to generate electricity, the only advantage that an EV provides is that more of the emissions that it is responsible for can be captured at the electric power plant. If we continue to use carbon based fuel at power plants, I sincerely wish is that EVs never take off, because if everyone start using them under those conditions, we will do MORE damage to the environment. But if our electric power all come from non carbon sources, then use of EVs would be desirable because their use would eliminate distributed release of greenhouse gases.

[roamer65]

19. I own a 2017 Chevy Cruze.

It’s 2nd place in its class on Consumer Reports, and it is built like it. I love the car and I have been in a lot of Toyotas and Hondas.

I am sad to see it go and next sedan I will buy will probably be the 1st in the class, Subaru Impreza.

I had a same year Toyota Corolla as a rental and I hated the car. Not at all as smooth riding and comfortable as my Cruze. Gas mileage was worse as well.

[OriginalGeek]

33. My wife has a Cruz and I have a Colorado

We love them. I didn't need a full size truck but I do need the smaller Colorado. My previous truck was a 2003 3/4 ton Chevy Avalanche I inherited from my grandpa. Even though the Avalanche was free and clear, the gas for it cost more than the gas and car note for the Colorado. I made money by buying the new one.

Last year we drove the Cruz to Key West. Had a blast and it performed flawlessly.

[TreasonousBastard]

41. I had a 2013 Cruze Eco that finally gave up the ghost at 120,000 miles...

So, when I was looking at a potential repair bill of 4 grand, I bought a 2018 sitting on the lot since May. Call me nuts, but the repairs were to the cooling system which had problems I ignored until it was too late, so I gave the new one a shot. And the clutch, which was a mistake in this car.

Gas mileage is mid-30's in both of them, but the older one just felt a little more solid than this one. It also had tighter handling. I assume that new stuff, like the backup camera, had to be paid for. The new one has other small niceties like you have to push the trunk unlock button twice. More road noise, but that might be the tires.

I like the size of the Cruze. Not tiny and tinny like some rentals I've had, and not too big. It's got a huge trunk, and dropping the seats I can shove a bunch of 8' 2x4's in there with no trouble. I looked at Hondas and Toyotas, but this Cruze fits "just right" and is a nicer ride until you get into their larger models.

[Demovictory9]

24. what cars are they eliminating?

[Recursion]

25. Literally all of them

GM is getting out of the car business for the US market, and only building SUVs, trucks, and crossovers.

[Demovictory9]

27. omg. i owned two Prisms - basically Corollas - had Corolla engines

[roamer65]

30. They are keeping the Chevy Malibu, Chevy Sonic, Buick Regal, Camaro and Corvette.

Plus 2 Cadillacs...for now.

Only reason they are keeping the Sonic is that they have a special wage agreement at the Lake Orion assembly plant in MI, plus sales of it actually shot up.

[BannonsLiver]

92. Every time I see a Cadillac I wonder how they're still in business

Caddy Demo skews heavily toward 65+. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone younger than that driving one. They also look like they’re cheaply made.

[beaglelover]

107. Unfortunately that is Cadillac's image but it is FAR from the truth.

I'm 54. Up until 4 years ago I only drove BMWs. Had 7 of them in a row. Thought they were the best cars ever built, etc. Yes, I drank the Kool Aid bad.

When my last BMW lease was up and they were only putting turbo engines in their new cars, I tried a Cadillac. I got an ATS sedan and was highly impressed with it. Great build quality and I was proud to finally be driving a car assembled in the USA by union workers. I liked the ATS so much that I leased a CTS about a year ago when the ATS lease was over. Again, great build quality and it's a super comfortable car to spend time in. My commute is 13 miles one way, but it usually takes over an hour, so it's nice to have a comfy place to spend that time. Plus having Pandora, XM radio, IPod, Youtube, etc. as entertainment options make the time go by quicker.

I wish more people were able to try a Cadillac. The brand doesn't deserve the shitty reputation that it has.

I'm not sure what I'll do when this lease is up if Cadillac is no longer making sedans. Maybe try an electric vehicle, not a Tesla though. Just too common around here.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

31. A couple of months ago I purchased a 2017 Honda Fit.

Amazing car.

I have never owned an American brand car, which is not something I'm necessarily proud of, but practicality has always been the main reason to own a particular car. Good gas mileage and reliability are everything.

I have never understood the obsession with SUVs. Many of them don't even have good cargo space. Until the Fit, I drove an '04 Civic since '06, and I used to point out that the trunk was a two, possibly a three body trunk. And it was. The Civic trunk was actually larger than the Accord trunk.

[spooky3]

35. My Prius is nearly 12 years old and has required very few repairs.

It’s a great car but I’ll replace it when I have to, with an SUV with more cargo space.

[spinbaby]

136. I love my Prius

I owned two Saturns back in the day. They were comfortable cars but each started to fall apart at around 60,000 miles. Over 100,000 miles on my last Prius and NOTHING went wrong.

[spooky3]

137. +1

[spooky3]

34. The industry as a whole is selling a lot more SUVs but

For me, reliability is an extremely important factor. And according to Consumer Reports and my own experience, Toyotas and some other brands are very reliable. Why the U.S. car industry has been so slow to “get” that this is important, I don’t understand.

(I’m aware that many “foreign” cars are assembled here, and when it’s time for a new car I will look at that.)

[Gore1FL]

37. They hire lobbyists to persuade lawmakers to allow them to make non-competitive vehicles.

The United States is filled with a near-sighted people looking for the fast dollar instead of the sustainable dollar.

[MichMan]

63. How do those lobbyists convince customers to shun cars and buy trucks & SUV?

Sales figures dont lie

[Gore1FL]

66. I suspect there is less truck and SUV competition relative to the sedans.

I buy sedans. I can't tell you about the SUV and Trucks that I am not interested in purchasing.

Maybe they buy trucks because the sedans suck relative to the foreign competition. In that way, lobbying to make shitty sedans causes this.

I am not sure what you are asking or suggesting. Is there a question that GM hires lobbyists to lower fuel standards? Do people buy sedans with lower mileage? I don't.

[MichMan]

105. No, customers are buying the vehicles they prefer

People in my state are generally very brand loyal and overwhelmingly prefer the domestic manufacturers since so many work for auto manufacturers or suppliers.

They have plenty of opportunities to go buy a Volt, Cruze, or Impala, but walk right buy those type of vehicles to look at a Traverse, Silverado, Tahoe or Equinox.

General Motors is following both Ford and FCA lead in dropping vehicles that people just aren't buying in enough volume to justify keeping an entire assembly plant running.

While it is fashionable to pick on of the "Big 3", Toyota, Honda and Hyundai/Kia top selling models are also Crossovers as well. People just are not buying sedans like they were just several years ago. In fact all the Japanese manufacturers are selling more light trucks than cars

http://www.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

https://www.statista.com/statistics/276506/change-in-us-car-demand-by-vehicle-type/

[Gore1FL]

115. What was incorrect about american auto makers and lobbyists?

Do they or do they no send lobbyists?

Do they or do they not lobby for lesser fuel standards.

Is fuel economy a consideration or not when comparing similar models?

I don't care what the consumer preference is in models. That is a tangent to my They fail to compete because they prefer to spend money for the ability to make less competitive cars than to invest that same money into simply meeting reasonable standards. Refer to post 37 which started this.

[MichMan]

116. "I don't care what the consumer preference is in models."

Crazy isn't it; allowing people to buy the vehicles that best fit their needs?

Perhaps a state mandated car like the Trabant would be a big hit. I know they sold quite a few of them in Eastern Europe back in the day

[Gore1FL]

129. I am arguing my point, not what you keep wanting to change it to.

My point isn't about models. It is about the overall lobbying strategy that I outlined. If you wish to discuss that, I will be happy to.

I am not sure why you feel the need to put words into my mouth in order to argue another topic, but I am not finding the exchange particularly entertaining or useful.

[MichMan]

132. Because lobbying has nothing to do with people wanting Crossovers instead of Sedans

How did I put words in your mouth when I quoted you directly?

You said "I don't care what the consumer preference is in models." Except that THEY DO care since they are the ones paying tens of thousands of dollars.

People are not buying sedans in nearly the same numbers as they once were while Crossovers are the biggest selling segment. That is true for every car maker not just the domestic ones. The sale numbers are irrefutable and there have been multiple links posted in this thread showing just that.

When I was a kid, station wagons were available by every manufacturer, then people quit buying them and wanted minivans. The Minivan fell out of fashion and was replaced by Crossovers. None of those had anything to do with any lobbying unless it was mom lobbying dad on what to buy.

News Flash! Sedans & Crossovers are essentially the same cars built on the same platforms just with different styling and features. The Chevy Cruze has a 1.4 liter turbo 4 cylinder engine. The Chevy Equinox has a 1.5 liter turbo 4 cylinder engine. The same people that bought the Equinox has ample opportunity to buy a Cruze or a Volt at the same dealership except they didn't want one. In fact, I would expect that they were available with big incentives.

You keep talking about lobbying. Lobbying for what? While Trump has proposed slowing down the current CAFE standards, the auto manufacturers (including GM) have all stated that they are opposed to any changes in the rules that have been in place for a few years.

Please share any specific changes in legislation regarding the automotive industry that you believe was attrributable to lobbying and we can discuss in detail.

[Gore1FL]

133. Jesus Christ. Just read post 37 and stick to that subject matter. You brought up Sedans.

Let's refresh:

They hire lobbyists to persuade lawmakers to allow them to make non-competitive vehicles.
The United States is filled with a near-sighted people looking for the fast dollar instead of the sustainable dollar.


To which you non-topically replied:

How do those lobbyists convince customers to shun cars and buy trucks & SUV?

Sales figures dont lie

I never said lobbyists convince customers to shun cars and buy trucks & SUV. I said lobbyists persuade lawmakers to allow car manufacturers to make non-competitive vehicles. I am not really interested in debating your detour argument. I don't care what the consumer preference is in models. It isn't part of any argument I have made.

If you want to discuss self-defeating lobbying, I'll be more than happy to continue this. If you want to discuss what models consumers prefer, find someone else.

Thanks.

[MichMan]

134. What laws were passed that allowed them to make non competitive vehicles ?

You have made the same statement several times and have yet to provide any specifics on what laws you are referring to.

You said again "I said lobbyists persuade lawmakers to allow car manufacturers to make non-competitive vehicles"

Again, please list a link stating the specific laws that lobbyists persuaded lawmakers to pass that supports your assertion.

[Gore1FL]

135. Lower MPG standards for one. It's the one I already mentioned.

https://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy

Believe it or not, the Auto Mfg industry is regulated. I could probably come up with more.

Are you going to drag out this sub thread further, or can we leave it here and simply agree that shitty fuel economy makes a vehicle less competitive in a market of like products, and that lobbying for that is counterproductive?

[TeamPooka]

40. I had a 1987 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera for many years that I got from a company I worked for

Last edited Tue Nov 27, 2018, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)

at the end of it's corporate lease in 1990.
Great deal for $2700 at the time and was the best car ever.
I still miss that car sometimes.

[Hekate]

42. I look for just a few things in a car: durability, good mileage, safety, price. My Tercel was 25yo

...when we finally donated it. The Camry is now 30 and limping a bit, no longer used for freeway trips. The Honda Accord is 11 going on 12 and goes great.

We seem to be counter-culture in that we shop via Consumer Reports recommendations and keep our two cars as long as possible. The reason we are not GM or Ford customers is that we started our car-purchasing back when the American companies were simply incapable of fulfilling our desires (that is the desires listed in the title). Given how bloody much money it takes to buy a car in the first place, I figure giving us the best product is the least auto companies could do. There's nothing German and Japanese engineers and workers can do that Americans cannot, so what happened?

Unfortunately for the American companies vis a vis our buying American, they seem to have missed their window of opportunity. We can't fix what's wrong with their corporate culture by throwing our money at them. I'm very sorry for the workers and local economies, but it's their corporate masters who have done this to them.

And, as I said elsewhere, a lot of foreign-branded cars are built in the US by American workers, who spend their paychecks in their local economies.

[Ohiogal]

79. Hekate,

If what you described is counter-culture, then we are in the same boat! We keep our cars until they literally cannot be repaired any more. My '06 Corolla is still going strong and has served me well with no problems. Why should I get rid of it? My son drives a 17-year old Camry that runs like new. We had a mini van that was 18 years old before we got rid of it. We live on a teachers' pension and can't afford a brand new vehicle, we always buy one 2 years old when we need a "new" one. $60,000 for a pickup or an SUV (which is way too big for me anyway) seems like another lifetime. That's more than we paid for our house back in the 70s! I don't know where the average American is getting all the money to afford these huge, pricey, vehicles.

[Sancho]

124. We do exactly the same thing....

unlike our behavior in the 06s and 70s (we're older) when we traded cars every 3-4 years (Comet, Monza, Mustang, Maverick, etc.), we started buying and keeping cars forever! Our 1980 Dodge PU truck is still in the family (straight drive, no AC).

After 40 years, we have put about 200K+ on multiple vehicles before giving them away - except we now read Consumer Reports, looking for milage, and we have become more environmentally concerned as the years have passed.

We have a 20 year old Pontiac that we inherited 15 years ago, a 10 year-old, straight-drive Nissan Frontier that we only purchased because the previous truck was in a wreck (nothing but a radio), and 5 years ago my wife bought a Prius when her very old VW bug finally died with an unknown number of miles. We got the Prius because CU said it was the cheapest cost per mile at the time - and it has proven very reliable and cheap to operate. We like the built in GPS, Blue Tooth for phones, and Sirius/XM radio.

I've lost track of which cars are assembled or whatever in the US.

I noticed that when renting cars in Italy and Portugal recently, they were usually straight-drive diesels. The Europeans are much more aware of fuel conservation.

Here in Florida the speed on highways has been creeping up over the last decade, and it's scary out there with all the big trucks, RVs, and aggressive drivers. I suspect if I buy another car, I'll get "driver assist" technology, and look for something as safe as possible.

[doc03]

43. I think you older folks remember we have seen this movie before. Back

in the seventies we had the oil embargo and the US auto companies got caught flat footed because they
made no small fuel efficient cars. Back then we had the Chrysler bail out. Then in 2008 when gas prices were up again
the American auto companies were making large SUVs and pickups. What happened, us taxpayers bailed out GM and Chrysler again
so they could make small fuel efficient cars. With the bailout Chevy retooled for the Cruze and Chrysler made the Dodge Dart again. So here we are again gas prices are down and the auto companies only want to sell pickups and SUVs because they
make over $10000 profit on each of them. They don't want to make sedans because they can't make a killing on them. They are willing to give the sedan business to foreign competitors. Myself I like a sedan they are more comfortable and less expensive to buy and drive.
I have a 2015 Ford Fusion and love it, after over 3 years and around 40000 have had absolutely zero issues with it. So I think my next car will be a one from either Subaru or Toyota, the American companies are dead as far as I am concerned.

[Hekate]

91. Aside from everything else, low mileage offends the hell out of me. Save the planet & the jobs.nt

[leftyladyfrommo]

46. I drive a Toyota yaris. 2nd one that I gave had.

No frills. I get 30 something mpg. I gave 100 000 miles on it. No repairs. My last one had 200,000 on it. Had a new water pump.

[dembotoz]

49. Gm will build what we buy

Appears to be hard to convert small car plant to bigger trucks. Easier to start over...

[pstokely]

51. people who are still buying traditional cars are buying Toyota and Honda

nt

[Squinch]

53. Everyone is saying Americans want trucks and SUVs. This is true

but it is ridiculous too. Those are gas guzzling, planet raping contraptions that we suddenly "developed a taste for" as the fossil fuel industry began to face its demise over global warming.

People buy those monsters because ads tell them it makes them cowboys, or it will make their friends jealous, or they need luxurious seating for 10 in the car they use for driving alone to the grocery store.

The fact that the market is where it is is a reflection of our idiotic denial of global warming and of our complete slavish belief of ads.

It is our fault. If we demanded efficient, reasonably sized cars that are actually suited to how we use them, the car companies would build them. Instead we let oil companies dictate to us what we want and what gets built.

[Vinca]

57. If there was a bona fide small truck on the market, we'd trade our old truck in a nanosecond.

Apparently there was something known as the "chicken tax" which killed the production of the little 4 wheel drive trucks Toyota made and everyone loved in the 80's and 90's. Suddenly, the only time you would see them is on news footage of terrorists in the Middle East who somehow still managed to get the little Toyota trucks so many people wanted. I've checked out importing one from another country and that's not possible. From what I gather on the Internet, the things would sell like hotcakes if they could just be made and sold in this country. They could be a real moneymaker for GM.

[MichMan]

60. Here is some background info

" On December 4, 1963, President Johnson imposed a 25% tax (almost 10 times the average U.S. tariff) by executive order (Proclamation 3564) on potato starch, dextrin, brandy, and light trucks, effective from 7 January 1964
"The Chicken Tax is a 25 percent tariff on light trucks (and originally on potato starch, dextrin, and brandy) imposed in 1964 by the United States under President Lyndon B. Johnson in response to tariffs placed by France and West Germany on importation of U.S. chicken
<snip>

With Johnson's proclamation, the U.S. had invoked its right under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT), whereby an offended nation may increase tariffs by an equal amount to losses from discriminating tariffs. Officially, the tax targeted items imported from Europe approximating the value
of lost American chicken sales to Europe.

In retrospect, audio tapes from the Johnson White House, revealed a quid pro quo unrelated to chicken. In January 1964, President Johnson attempted to convince United Auto Workers' president Walter Reuther not to initiate a strike just before the 1964 election and to support the president's civil-rights platform. Reuther, in turn, wanted Johnson to respond to Volkswagen's increased shipments to the United States

The Chicken Tax directly curtailed importation of German-built Volkswagen Type 2s in configurations that qualified them as light trucks, that is, commercial vans and pickups.

In 1964, U.S. imports of "automobile trucks" from West Germany declined to a value of US$5.7 million—about one-third the value imported in the previous year. Soon after, Volkswagen cargo vans and pickup trucks, the intended targets, "practically disappeared from the U.S. market."

<snip>

As of March 2018, the 1964 tariff of 25% remains levied on imported light trucks"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

[Vinca]

62. Thanks for the info.

Maybe I should forward it to the Orange Fuhrer. He might repeal it in order to have a signing ceremony.

[GulfCoast66]

86. Where I live for every vanity pick sold there is one or more sold due to need.

Many of us don’t live in big cities and have jobs/hobbies/homes that require trucks. You can’t haul a boat or trailer, a load of firewood, mulch for your yard or run a part time landscaping business out of a sedan. I agree if our living demographics was closer to that in Europe we would need far fewer trucks. But in the rural parts of Europe I see way more Japanese pick ups than I did 20 years ago. I can’t see having any amount of land with out a truck.

We use the ‘truck’ part of our truck numerous times a month.

Our other vehicle: a Camry.

[Squinch]

87. Somehow we all managed to haul boats and trailers and firewood

and mulch long before the family monster truck came into vogue in the last few years.

And as I just said in another post, my friend is a full time landscaper. He went looking for a working truck and couldn't find any among the new ones that weren't absurdly priced, full of video capabilities and extra seating etc, and completely useless as a working truck. He got an old model used one.

[GulfCoast66]

90. My dads old 70s and 80s trucks were lucky to get 10mph. Maybe up to 15.

My truck does better.

I don’t disagree that many drive trucks who do not need them. But back in the day many sedans got as bad or worse mileage as trucks. I remember the 72 Olds 98 we had...what a barge.

If your friend is in a Credit Union he might check out if they work with Auto Advisor before he buys again. I was able to use the at a dealer outside my area and buy from the Fleet side of the dealership. Saved my thousands on as stripped down as possible truck. Although as you stated, nothing is really stripped down anymore.

And boats have gotten bigger, and I should admit safer. It takes more truck to pull my 22’ bay boat than it did my dads 17 foot jon boat. Of course, I fish a different part of the gulf than he did. If I lived back in S Louisiana I would have a smaller boat.

Changing the CAFE standards is what make these decisions easy. The reason Toyota has not had to worry much about their Trucks mileage is because they sell relatively few compared to all those high mileage cars, keeping their fleet average high. If Chevy expected increasing fuel standard requirements I am not sure they would have made this move.

Interesting discussion.

[Squinch]

118. Imagine how much better mileage a current small car gets, then. Maybe if more people

chose small cars we could gain 10 or 12 years to try and figure out how to avert the coming irreversible ecological catastrophe we are creating and that will make the world uninhabitable.

The catastrophe is not a question anymore. It is coming. We just got another confirmation of that fact. But Americans keep their heads in the sand as they buy bigger and bigger cars and trucks and think someone else will take care of the problem.

[GulfCoast66]

122. The only correction I would have is that the catastrophe is not coming

But here already! California proves that.

Between cars, power generation and conservation this is a problem we can solve with totally altering our lifestyles. Some adjustments? Yes. But the longer we wait the more we will have our lifestyle altered for us.

I live in Florida. It astounds me that every new home is not required to have solar panels on the roof and situated in a good position for energy generating.

[fescuerescue]

94. The cars capable of doing that aren't made anymore

It wasn't that long ago, that the family station wagon had a full frame and a big V8.

It could tow the boat or camper just fine, or haul a load of wood in the back.

Full frame cars are no longer made, and while some cars do have large engines, they are optimized towards acceleration and speed. Almost zero cars have anything beyond minimal tow capacity. Hook up a boat or camper to you a Camry, and body will crumple.

That just leaves trucks.


And btw, "work trucks" are still to be had. They just require special order or a very large dealer lot (my local dealer has 4 or 5 of them, but they are huge)

[Squinch]

96. Which supports my original assertion. We have been told that a monster truck will make us manly

cowboys or a giant SUV will make us just as important as someone in a motorcade. We buy them so we will think we look significant as we head off for the weekly trip to Walmart.

More task-appropriate vehicles have gone out of production because they don't feed the image. The car companies have created these images in tandem with the oil companies who fear obsolescence.

They pull our strings, and we buy what they tell us to.

[fescuerescue]

97. we can only buy the cars that are built

Unfortunately, trucks are the currently built, task-appropriate vehicle available to tow a boat, camper and a load of firewood.

As far as marketing? Oh yes. totally agree. We are nation led by marketing and propaganda, although not a single person will ever admit that it affects them.

[EllieBC]

108. There's no way I'll drive a sedan.

I have 3 kids and some back problems. Jamming us all into a sedan would not be pleasant. That and puzzling car seats and boosters in sedans is a major pain in the ass.

[d_r]

56. I have only

Ever had American cars. Had a Pontiac and an Oldsmobile but mostly fords. Do not want a foreign car.

[exboyfil]

58. Love my 2002 Cavalier

Not so much my 2009 HHR, but still not a bad car. My others have been 1985 Cavalier, 1994 Lumina, and 1996 Ford Escort Station Wagon. I guess I go foreign for my next car. I did need the HHR for dog agility trips. All my cars have been bought new.

[Siwsan]

64. I've been mad at them, ever since they dumped the Saturn line

I'm holding on to mine for as long as possible.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

70. Me, too. I have a 2009 Vue and I really like it.

[3_Limes]

65. Kinda surpised that the demise of personal car ownership isn't mentioned in this discussion.

I'd think that's another big factor in GM's thinking. The big chassis are the big sellers today, and very profitable. So they'll stick w/ that for now, but in another decade or two the assumption that every driver will own their own car will be crumbling. Car sharing, autonomous vehicles and a mindset that views "mobility" as just another virtualizable service will make the family sedan a much smaller business than Americans are used to today.

The world is changing, and GM is getting ready for that change.

[flotsam]

71. As long as we're addressing general bitching

I drive a 14 yo Scion sedan now. I bought it two years ago with only 85K on the odometer and am still (just) south of 100K. I'm driving this car because my last one which was newer and had lower mileage blew the timing belt and ate the (interference) engine. My little Scion is poorly reviewed as "lacking horsepower" but it's got one benefit I'll never go without again-it has a timing chain and the engine is non-interference. Can anyone tell me WHY on God's Green Earth why you would build an engine that self-destructs when the crank-to-cam linkage is disrupted and THEN weaken that link?

[MineralMan]

72. Traditional sedans are no longer popular.

There are many reasons for that, but the bottom line is that people want vehicles that fill multiple needs these days. Sedans are pretty much good for nothing but transporting passengers. People want cargo space, legroom, headroom, and other things. That's why the concept became more popular.

GM apparently didn't see the trend developing. Now, it understands that the traditional sedan is no longer desirable to today's buyers. So, it's dropping them from its line-up of vehicles. Probably too late, really.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

73. That's exactly the reason I got a small SUV. I have to drag a lot of stuff around,

especially during the summer, and my little sedan just wasn't doing the job. I got tired of having to try to shoehorn large objects into it and then try to drive with some big thing looming over my head or leaning on me. I was interested in a hybrid at the time (2009) but they were really expensive then, and they had a $4,000 battery that would eventually have to be replaced. I understand that the vehicles and the batteries are less expensive now, so I'll probably go that route next time.

[MineralMan]

74. We opted for a little 4-door boxy car, the KIA Soul.

Plenty of room. Comfortable entry and exit, and plenty of room for us and our junk. But, the first thing was the 5-year, 60,000 mile warranty and 10-year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. Heads and tails above any warranties offered by any US manufacturer.

I wanted a warranty that would last until the car was paid off, at least. American cars in our price range all had 3-year, 36,000 mile warranties. They were all less comfortable, too.

We've had the Soul, now, for over six years. It never needed any warranty repairs. We'll probably drive it for another year and then get another one.

Bottom line: GM, Ford and Chrysler didn't make a car that suited our needs and budget at the time. They still don't. If they had, I'd have bought one. However, my needs and expectations took priority over some sort of loyalty to US manufacturers.

[kwassa]

75. The small SUV market is very crowded now by all manufacturers.

I just bought a Mazda CX-5.

My Chevy Venture minivan just died at age 17. I also had a Chevy Malibu Maxx that I just loved, a great driving car that did many things well. that lasted 12 years before an accident totaled it.

Now, driving the small SUV, I am really aware how many are on the road. Every manufacturer makes them. And many look very much alike.

The Ford Escape morphed into a small car-like SUV. The new Chevy Equinox looks pretty sharp. Chrysler makes the Jeeps, and the small ones are clearly very popular right now.

The larger trend is that the small SUV is taking away market share from sedans.

[MineralMan]

76. The reason for that is that they are more useful as a vehicle.

You can fold the rear seat down and load them up with stuff to transport. Or, you can fit 5 people in them and go wherever you want. the extra headroom and footroom ads comfort, and small SUVs are easier to get into and out of than the typical sedan of whatever size.

All of that makes them very popular with families. It's easier to deal with kids' car seats, too. Plus, even retirees like them for their ease of entry and exit. These days, they ride nicely and have a feeling of stability while driving that appeals to people. Station wagons used to fill those needs, but they fell out of popularity years ago. Minivans once fit that role, but they're too big, hard to park, and get lousy fuel mileage.

Here in Minnesota, small all-wheel-drive SUVs are some of the most popular vehicles on the road.

[kwassa]

81. Small SUVs are outselling sedans for most manufacturers.

Toyota's RAV4 is their top selling vehicle for the first time, outselling the Camry.

Nissan Rogue is their top-selling vehicle by a large margin.

Honda CRV is the top-selling Honda.

Chevy Equinox is the top-selling Chevy that isn't a pickup.

Jeep Grand Cherokee is the top-selling Chrysler that isn't a pickup.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/01/december-2017-year-end-u-s-vehicle-sales-rankings-top-296-best-selling-vehicles-in-america-every-vehicle-ranked/

[EllieBC]

109. I loved our RAV4.

Sadly when kiddo 3 arrived it has to go bye bye as you can’t do 3 car seats in the back of them. Once you have 1 car seat back there it ceases to be a 5 passenger vehicle and becomes only a 4 passenger vehicle.

[TexasBushwhacker]

110. I have a 2006 Scion xB. My little toaster

It's crazy how roomy they are inside with the boxy shape, isn't it?

[RainCaster]

93. In my family we have two sedans, a pickup and a roadster

Sedans by Lexus and Toyota, truck by Ford, roadster by Honda. That truck is 19 years old and has less than 50k miles- doesn't get driven much, but sometimes I do need a truck to haul rock, soil or tow the camp trailer.

I rent cars for work travel and all I can get are sedans. Somehow, the rental car firms know that we still prefer sedans.

IMO, the notion of SUVs came about because Detroit couldn't build a safe minivan, they failed badly on crash tests. The SUVs were exempt from crash tests because they were considered trucks. So they cranked up the PR engine and got us all to trade in our minivans for SUVs that guzzle gas like no tomorrow.

[Horse with no Name]

77. I have a Cruze and a Malibu

I like them both.

[kwassa]

78. I loved my Malibu.

2005 Malibu Maxx. Great car.

[Bigredhunk]

84. -

I believe the only people who drive sedans anymore are poor people and young single women. Maybe a few older people too. Around here (midworst):

Nearly every man drives a pickup.
Nearly every woman with a family drives a crossover, minivan, or a huge SUV.
Nearly every older person drives a crossover or a minivan.

It's really shifted to crossovers. 15 years ago it was all Suburbans, Yukons, Denalis. Now a vast majority are crossovers. Women with families like them for the room. Older people like them because they're easy to get into/out of. You still see a small percentage of minivans. Every man has a pickup. The only cars are driven by a large percentage of poorer people, single women, and a smaller percentage of older people. Some men who have $$ drive luxury sedans.

[Liberal In Texas]

88. I'm an old person and haven't had a sedan since my '75 Oldsmobile. I just bought a crossover plug-in

hybrid SUV type mid-sized vehicle. I asked the GM people for years at auto shows to make a plug-in SUV (one that wasn't gigantic) and just got shrugs. Finally, I've decided that to get one before I die I bought a Kia Niro plug-in and am awaiting delivery as they're almost impossible to buy around here.

If you build it, doesn't necessarily mean they'll come.

[Bigredhunk]

89. -

Very cool. Off to google your new car right now!

[still_one]

85. I had a 2013 Volt. Great car. And there are a lot of them here in California. Problem is they

didn't market it well. People could drive it for months without filling it up with gas, and when they needed it for longer trips greater than 50 miles, they had an internal combustion engine

That flexibility was not communicated well

Another issue was that the rear seats were not usable except for children and smaller people, and they really never fully addressed that problem. I ended up trading the Volt for a Honda Clarity plug in hybrid which accomodted 5 people comfortably, and used the same concept as the Volt

[ecstatic]

100. I just googled GM cars

to remind myself what they make. These days, people want an attractive car. GM's best looking cars are the Camaro, large SUVs--like the Tahoe and Escalade and some of their pick up trucks (the ones with the cool lights). The Impala redesign was also successful, but my interest died when I realized it was a large car, which wasn't what I was looking for at the time. Whoever designed those cars needs to completely redesign the rest of their sedans and crossover SUVs as well. Look at how Mazda and even Hyundai have recently reinvented themselves--all due to extremely successful redesigns. Now if they can couple a redesign with excellent performance, that's even better.

Second, once the redesigns are done, they need to hire a marketing team to help re-introduce the Buick and Cadillac. I still can't picture myself owning a Buick. And Cadillacs are really attractive (or at least were... not sure I like the direction lately), but my dad has always had a caddy here and there, and for that reason, I don't see myself in one.

[wasupaloopa]

103. I see lot's of camaros on the street and malibus and a Buick suv's

[hunter]

106. I don't live in the world of people who buy new cars.

I bought a new car just once in my life, easy monthly payments, back in the 'eighties. I blame it on testosterone poisoning. I was a young man with his first "career" type job and it seemed the right thing to do... at the time.

I'll never do that again.

I'm skilled enough as a mechanic that used cars costing less than $1,000 don't scare me.

A used car with 100,000 miles on the odometer is a youngster to me, good for 200,000 miles more, at least.

I would feel bad if someone built a new car for me.

Car culture is among the worst of all human inventions, maybe not as horrible as handguns, but damned close.

[handmade34]

112. "Car culture...the worst of all human inventions"

yes and guns... we have created an absurd world... and contributing to our early demise

[marlakay]

113. They also didn't run their company right

My daughter is a manager of large car dealership which used to carry GM and even before they went under they dropped them because they didn't handle their paperwork correctly or on time.

It finally wasn't worth it to them and they dropped that brand.

[Demsrule86]

114. Trumps tariffs added 1300 per car in lordstown...cars are not that popular and have a lower profit

margin than say trucks or suvs ;this doomed Lordstown...but I will say this GM sent a Truck overseas also which is wrong...the steel tariffs really hurt auto manufacturing in this country giving foreign manufacturing a boost as their parts cost less. Also, many countries ...Korea being a big offender have closed markets unless we make the cars there ...and yet we have to accept any shit they decide to send...unfair trade agreements have no doubt played a part in our manufacturing job losses...without which there will be no middle class.

[TheFarseer]

117. I don't understand

Why they don't use those plants to manufacture the urban assault vehicles Mericans want? I understand Muricans must waste as much gas as possible in a huge vehicle, but like I said, why can't they just make those gas guzzling monstrosities at those same plants after some re-fitting? Unless it's a good excuse to move overseas. . . . . . .

[titaniumsalute]

119. That's not entirely true.

GM has sold 13,400 Buick Lacrosse, 7200 Cadillac CT6s, 12700 Cadillac XTS, 110,000 Chevy Cruzes, 44,000 Chevy Impalas, and 13,200 Volts. That's slightly over 200,000 new car sales by GM in these six categories they are cutting. So not really fair to say that people don't want to buy these products. Clearly they do.

They are lower profit vehicles therefore they are cutting them out. That, combined with the steel and other parts costs increasing, GM doesn't want to disappoint stock holders with lower profit.

[MichMan]

123. They are spread across multiple plants

Collectively that isn't a small number of sales, but spread across multiple assembly plants, it isn't close to being enough. The cost of running an assembly plant is staggering if it only runs 1 shift

[titaniumsalute]

127. Yes I agree

But my point was that yes people do buy these vehicles albeit less profitable than other makes/models.

[Victor_c3]

120. Sadly, there isn't an American made car I really want to buy

I’ve been saving up and car shopping for a while. American car manufacturers just don’t make what I want:

1) something sporty
2) all wheel drive
3) a rear seat for my kids
4) not a gigantic sedan

It pretty much boils down to a choice between a Porsche 911, a Nissan GTR, or an Audi TT.

If GM of Ford could get around to making a Mustang or a Camaro with AWD and a decent engine, I’d have a hard time not buying it.

[csziggy]

125. My grandparents and parents only ever owned GM cars

Buicks, mostly. I liked the Buicks but I mostly had GMC vehicles - Suburbans for my work trucks and my husband had an Envoy.

I've only ever owned two three-quarter ton GMC Suburbans - the first lasted for 18 years and over 350,000 miles before the engine block cracked. The second is 20 years old with half those miles and still going strong. It will be the last truck I ever own since we're no longer hauling horses around the country.

When my husband's Envoy was totaled he ended up buying a Prius. For his commuting it made more sense to have a vehicle that got close to 50 miles per gallon than one that got 20. Plus we were surprised at the rear seat passenger room in the 2006 Prius - more leg room than in the Suburban or in the Buicks I'd grown up with. Last year for a second small car we bought a Prius V - not as good gas mileage but more cargo space for trips.

I'd looked at GM cars and these days they are not making a vehicle that fits our needs - not as much easy access carrying capacity with really good gas mileage. I don't want another sedan - the hatchback Prius works much better than trying to extract stuff from a deep trunk. It seems they are either making small sedans or big SUVs and trucks, nothing in between.

[AlexSFCA]

126. Few American cars are appealing as commuter vehicles

Japanese ones are too good to pass on. Tesla is a newer American brand that’s innovative and more appealing than GM.