Legal analyst floats idea that Manafort's lying means that Trump walked into M's perjury-trap.

[DetlefK]

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/11/heres-whitaker-wont-able-suppress-robert-muellers-report-manafort-proceedings-intel-analyst/

She explains that Mueller made the revelation only after President Donald Trump had turned in his written answers on collusion to the special prosecutor.

“Just about the only explanation for Manafort’s actions are that — as I suggested — Trump was happy to have Manafort serve as a mole in Mueller’s investigation,” Wheeler argued. “But Mueller’s team appears to have no doubt that Manafort was lying to them. That means they didn’t really need his testimony, at all.”

“It also means they had no need to keep secrets — they could keep giving Manafort the impression that he was pulling a fast one over the prosecutors, all while reporting misleading information to Trump that he could use to fill out his open book test,” she continued. “Which increases the likelihood that Trump just submitted sworn answers to those questions full of lies.”

Manafort lied to Mueller.

Mueller knew he was being lied to but pretended to be fooled.

Manafort told Trump what lies he had told Mueller.

Trump gave written testimony to Mueller.

And now Mueller has revealed that he knew all along that Manafort's version was a lie.



If Trump's testimony matches Manafort's lies, that means that Trump lied, too.

[Vinca]

1. That's exactly what I was thinking - Trump's answers were based on lies.

But was the whole think concocted on the promise Don would pardon Manafort?? I'd love to know what state charges are waiting in the background for all of these people.

[SayItLoud]

58. State Charges! Yes, I wanna see them for Grifter family first and foremost! nt

[kentuck]

2. I was thinking of the timeline...

Did Trump give his answers to Mueller before Manafort got his 10-day extension of sorts?

I think there may be a connection?

[FarPoint]

3. I to am focusing on the time line...

When did Mueller give tRump the questionaire? Was it before Manafort went to trail in September and was convicted? Manafort made a plea after September trial...So, I tend to recall tRump has had the Mueller questions for at least 6 months...so how could the questionaire be bait?

[kentuck]

12. Trump would not submit any questions until he was sure of Manaforts responses...

it was like a cat and mouse game. Then, when Trump agreed to turn in his answers, Mueller gave Manafort the 10-day extension. The questionaire was the least that Trump could give to the investigation. But, he did it all himself.... his lawyers did not write his answers. He really wanted people to know that.

[SayItLoud]

59. Probably his lawyers wouldn't write his lies! nt

[Laura PourMeADrink]

64. You just made me think...re: gave answers by himself...

Isn't there an ethical rule for attorneys that they can not perpetuate known untruths? Maybe they told Dingbat..
"if you say that...leave my name out of it !!!'

[libdem4life]

74. Very good point.

Even crooked lawyers can't put it in writing. Funny how they can help their clients lie. Of course, they are not the criminal usually.

[Saboburns]

14. Here's my take.

Remember right after the election when Trump was a no show at the French WWI cemetery and also a couple days later he again no showed at Arlington? The Washington Post did a story about how seething mad Trump had been post election

But I contend he wasn't pissed at the election.

He was pissed because his team had just got, and read, Mueller's qustions.

And not til they read the questions did team Trump understand just how fucked they already were.

[True Blue American]

29. RI am inclined to agree with you.

Trump was in such a rage he was actually having trouble thinking straight.

Look at how he went off at Acosta. It was as if he tried to find someone to vent that rage on. He actually had to physically pull himself together when he stormed away from the podium. Then to further vent he pulled Acosta’s Pass. That backfired big time with Sanders fake video. CNN won that one.

Trump gets angrier and more stupid every day. And,it shows.

[brush]

54. What am I missing? The OP says Mueller was fooling Manafort into thinking he was believing him.

Manafort through his attorney was then relaying to trump what he told Mueller so their stories would jibe, but when the same bullshit answers that Manafort gave to Mueller showed up on trump's take-home exam, then Mueller knew trump was lying because he already knew Manafort was lying.

Seems to me trump thought, just as Manafort did, that he had played Mueller too but it wasn't until yesterday when Mueller announced that Manafort had been lying all along that trump knew then that Mueller also knew that he'd lied as well on the take-home test.

Now Manafort and trump both know they can't play the player.

Manafort will now spend the rest of his life in jail and trump will join him at some point. It might not be until he leaves the WH, as the repugs in the Senate won't go along with any impeachment effort from the Dems in the House, but he'll eventually have to face the music.

And he's also an un-indicted, yet, co-conspirator on the Cohen/Stormy Daniels matter. That will have to be resolved also, probably with jail time too.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

76. Nothing you got it!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

75. I think it would be really interesting to look at tapes

of him speaking at various times. I bet there is a " tell " of some sort that you could identify. Because I have often thought that given the fact that there could be very dire consequences out of the Mueller investigation, he many times acts rather carefree. That has made me think, God, could he possibly be innocent? Or, God, could Mueller really not have anything and he knows it?

But maybe it is neither of those. Maybe he really is worried, scared and upset but he is a show man and knows how to hide it on camera. But maybe if you could look at his tapes like a CSI agent you could notice a tell.

[JudyM]

79. He is nothing but a showman. Lying and cheating for years, and covering for it all with bluster.

[duforsure]

4. Its only a perjury trap if your a liar,

And a criminal. They entrap themselves from lying about their involvement and criminal activities. Innocent people who tell the truth don't have this to worry about doing, criminals do. Mueller knows these people are criminals , and knows they're liars, so he just let them set themselves up like any good prosecutor worth his salt would do. trump is a walking time bomb waiting to be fully exposed now from being a criminal, and a liar. That's why he's so scared to talk to Mueller, he knows it too. Manafort is a fool, but a criminal very talented at getting around the law, much like trump is. They'll lose against Mueller and others coming after them now, so watch the desperation to escalate from trump, and others, criminals do this when its close to them.

[unblock]

6. A true perjury trap can certainly happen with innocent people

If a malicious prosecutor makes someone testify about something embarrassing when there's no underlying crime, e.g., gets someone to lie about an affair under oath where that's not pertinent to any real crime, that's a perjury trap.

But largely, in order for it to be a perjury trap, Donnie not only has to be innocent of any crime, but he also has to be not a witness to anyone else's crime.

In this case, the problem is not that mueller is setting up a perjury trap, the problem is that Donnie is a perjury machine.

[PJMcK]

35. Good points

Thanks for clarifying Trump's predicament.

[Maeve]

42. Or--if there was a trap, 45 set it for himself eom

[rzemanfl]

43. "Perjury machine." Love it. n/t

[unblock]

5. Typically, in order to be a perjury trap, there has to be no underlying crime

Good prosecutors build good cases with corroborating witnesses and evidence, so it's hard to argue that it's a perjury trap merely because mueller already knew the answers to the questions. He could always use Donnie's testimony as corroboration, to be an extra witness to another crime, or to clarify if he himself had committed any other crime.

And of course, it's not a perjury trap just because Donnie happens to commit perjury.

Finally, I may be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure Donnie can amend his answers if he happens to suddenly "remember" something he had forgotten earlier.

[PJMcK]

48. Depositions

During my adult life, I've had to testify (if that's the word) in half a dozen depositions. In each case, once the oral testimony was transcribed by the stenographer, I was given the opportunity to amend my responses if needed.

Trump's written answers seem to be a somewhat different kind of testimony but I still think you're correct that Trump may be allowed to correct his homework.

[GetRidOfThem]

7. Sounds construed to me...

...may be too complex to be true...

[Hortensis]

8. RIGHT-WING nonsense. Perjury traps are ILLEGAL & UNETHICAL.

There is NO chance that one would be attempted and, of course, even LESS chance than that that anyone would have to create a crime to trap Trump into committing because there were no real ones.

Note that asking questions about the actions being investigated are not perjury traps but rather necessary and 100% ethical questions that need answers. A trap requires certain conditions, among them, critically, that the question be unrelated to the possible crime under investigation. Like calling Bill Clinton for an umptieth grand jury swiftboating about Whitewater and springing a question about a sexual affair on him.

[watoos]

15. Well said, "perjury trap" is a right wing talking point.

Tell the truth eom.

[True Blue American]

37. A perjery trap can only

Last edited Tue Nov 27, 2018, 12:34 PM - Edit history (1)

Happen if you lie. Manafort and trump are both liars, thus no trap, but facts. Mueller knows too much to have to lay traps.

The boil is getting ready to burst. You can see it in Trumps actions.

[Hortensis]

53. Yes. :) But the key point for this OP is Mueller WOULD not.

It would be despicable, unprincipled behavior in itself. That is why it is of course illegal. It would also be incompetent since anything gained by it would immediately be challenged in court and thrown out, giving enormous credence to the Republican claim that the investigation is itself corrupt and illegal.

You're so right about him, of course. Trump's trapped himself in a corner he can't buy his way out of, and his clueless thrashing about for an escape only hurts him more. Ironic that he wanted to be the most powerful man in the world and in the process eliminated the only protection he knew how to use. Outside condoms and nondisclosure agreements, of course.

[True Blue American]

68. With Muellers background

There is no way he would do that. He just stands back, lets them trap themselves.

I would like to see Mueller run for office. Think how great he would be.

[Hortensis]

71. Yes. :) Mueller's probity and commitment to doing his job well

are not unusual, though. Voters just need to require them as part of the package. A little more probity and commitment to doing our own job well would be revolutionary. Less oohing and ahhing over sparkly objects and more cool-eyed "wonder what Mueller would think of this one" evaluation.

[True Blue American]

72. I agree with you 100%!

We have had good ole boy Bush., shining on a hill Reagan, 2nd rate cowboys.

Now we have worse!

[Augiedog]

9. Mueller doesn't need to resort to such schemes. Manafort and trump will do themselves in.

[randr]

10. It indicates that Manafort was reporting back to Trump, as Mueller suspected

and he was caught in an age old trap. Further implication that Trump is interfering in a Federal investigation.
Stupid is as stupid does.

[Mr. Ected]

11. Not a perjury trap if Trump's alleged crime isn't perjury

In this case, it looks like witness tampering. Trump engaged in covert discussions with Manafort to "get their stories straight"; Mueller is aware of Manafort's lies and then sees them reflected in Trump's responses. Sounds more like conspiracy than straight up perjury to me.

[watoos]

18. You are making this way too complicated.

What Mueller did was simple but ingenious. He realized that Manafort was lying to him, so he let Manafort continue lying. I assume that Mueller figured out that Manafort's lawyers were reporting back to Trump. Mueller simply asked Trump some of the same questions that he knew that Manafort had lied about. Trump and Manafort thought they had out-foxed Mueller, (pause to laugh) now Mueller is going to go to public court to prove to a judge why he knows Manafort was lying. All of that public testimony that Whitaker is supposed to squelch will be coming soon. I can't wait, this should be good. A lot of dirt about the Trump crime family is about to be become public knowledge.

[Hortensis]

28. :) It would also be further definitive proof of obstruction

of justice. Although I suspect they're already wheeling their files on that around on carts.

[MyOwnPeace]

77. Dear Santa,

I do NOT want any new trains, toys, or cars. Just make all of what "watoos" said come true!

[onenote]

38. It didn't have to be covert. Reportedly there was a joint defense agreement

between Trump's lawyers and Manafort's lawyers that allowed them to share information. Not atypical (I've drafted several).

Hard to know the scope and terms of the joint defense agreement (assuming reports that there was one are accurate), but since Mueller was in jail (making it unlikely he was directly communicating with anyone other than his attorneys), it would be no surprise if his attorneys were communicating with Trump's attorneys.

[MyOwnPeace]

78. for clarity..........

I'm thinking you meant "but since Manafort was in jail"........................

[True Blue American]

69. The cover up

Catches them every time.

I am not even worried about Mueller. That man is always way ahead of the crooks

[Tarc]

13. "Mueller is playing chess while Trump is playing checkers" doesn't even do it justice

It's more like Mueller is playing Tri-D Chess (Trek shoutout!) while Trump is shoving checkers up his nose.

[LakeSuperiorView]

26. tRump needs some help

[EffieBlack]

32. Lol

[rainin]

16. How is Manafort communicating with trump? He's in jail.

Aren't his communications monitored? Is there a go-between. Can a 3rd person be charged with obstruction for passing messages?

[watoos]

21. No, Manafort's and his lawyers meetings are private.

[writes3000]

22. Through lawyers for Manafort and Trump. Also, Whitaker could be whispering messages as well.

[USALiberal]

27. Through his lawyers maybe? Nt

[True Blue American]

40. They just posted

Manafort’s Attorneys.

[lancelyons]

17. That cant be right because Manafort will not testify and he is a soiled witness

That cant be right because Manafort will not testify and he is a soiled witness.

If Manafort said something contrary to what Trump says, Trump just says thats not true and Manafort is not going to testify against trump.

Even if there was paper testimonial from Manafort that contradicts trumps statements, its a he said he said scenario unless there are other accounts.

[lancelyons]

20. I personally believe that Whitaker already has reigned in the probe to some degree.

I personally believe that Whitaker already has reigned in the probe to some degree.

We all thought there would be indictments after the mid terms but nothing.

[watoos]

24. Please excuse me, but thank you for that belly laugh.

[True Blue American]

70. Whitaker could not

Even manage a hot tub company and had to resort to threatening Veterans. That did not work either. They sued him.

[writes3000]

25. Disagree. I think Mueller was playing this Manafort game out until Trump submitted answers.

The thing Mueller needed most was Trump’s responses. If Mueller indicted a bunch of people over the last few weeks, trump would not have answered.

[watoos]

44. The truth of the matter is,

it looks to me like Whitaker has done little to slow down Mueller. I expect that Mueller knew that Whitaker would leak information to Trump. Whitaker is not the sharpest crayon in the box. Whitaker had better realize that come January he is going to be in front of a committee testifying under oath.

The Mueller train roars on.

[PJMcK]

50. Why did you think Robert Mueller was waiting for the mid-terms?

What insight or inside information do you have?

The speculation that Mr. Mueller was waiting for the elections before bringing new indictments was unfounded. Mr. Mueller has been working along his own timeline, not one guessed at by us DUers.

Have faith. His cases have proven to be rock solid and I suspect they will continue to be unimpeachable.

[watoos]

30. Mueller doesn't need Manafort to testify.

You people are missing what's happening. Mueller caught Manafort lying to him which violated his plea agreement. Now Mueller is going to court, in public, to prove how he knows that Manafort lied to him. Mueller is going to expose a heck of a lot of what the Trump crime family was doing, and Whitaker can do nothing to stop it.
Get your popcorn, I can't wait for the show to begin. Now we have the added problem for Trump that he just answered Mueller's questionnaire and lied the same as Manafort did, 2 birds with one stone.

Trump is scared shitless today, he is lashing out at Mueller.

[alterfurz]

80. yes, as always Donnie's tweets are his surest tell

[Kaleva]

19. OP has a false headline and should be amended.

For one thing, perjury traps are illegal and Muller wouldn't use such an unethical and illegal tactic. Saying it's a "perjury trap" is a RW talking point.

Here is what the legal analylist actaully said:

"Wheeler, however, offered a specific theory on how Mueller outmaneuvered the Trump team."

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/11/heres-whitaker-wont-able-suppress-robert-muellers-report-manafort-proceedings-intel-analyst/

No where in the article is the term "perjury trap" mentioned.

[watoos]

34. Yip, "perjury trap" is a right wing talking point. Tell the truth. eom.

[ScratchCat]

23. I dont know if this was part of a plan by Muller

But about the only explanation for Trumps two day meltdown over Muller is that his "answers" and Manaforte's word were both provable lies that they already had proof of.

[watoos]

36. Oh this isn't the end of it.

Mueller is going to court, in public, to prove how he knows Manafort was lying. He is going to publicly expose a heck of a lot of the Trump crime family dirt. Coming soon to a court room near you.

[AndJusticeForSome]

81. Are we sure it will be public?

Isn't it possible that those papers will be sealed?

[Grasswire2]

83. It's my understanding that the coming filing of the breaking of Manafort's plea deal..

...will be filled with details that may answer some of our questions. To be filed soon by Mueller.

[The Wizard]

31. Only liars get caught

in a perjury trap.

[MoonRiver]

33. Hahahahaha!

Bravo Mr. Mueller!

[onenote]

39. Maybe I'll be wrong about this, but I think some people watch too much TV

and are likely to be disappointed.

[watoos]

45. Have you seen Trump's Tweets today?

[True Blue American]

73. Getting more hysterical

By the day! He gonna blow!

[The Wizard]

41. Liars depend on all others to tell the truth

Lawyers tell them a plausible lie that fits the narrative and get them to agree to it. As a trial lawyer once mused, "Everything changes once the lying starts."
They fail to follow rule one: When in a hole, stop digging.

[watoos]

47. No that's not the way it went down.

Believe me, Mueller didn't tell any "plausible lies."

[AllyCat]

46. Of course his answers were lies. It's all he knows.

[Toorich]

49. Unforgiven.....

....Now Ned, them whores are going to tell different lies than you. And when their lies ain't the same as your lies... Well, I ain't gonna hurt no woman. But I'm gonna hurt you. And not gentle like before... but bad. - Sheriff Little Bill Daggett

[C_U_L8R]

51. And what about this Whitaker guy?

No doubt he's been reporting back to Trump. Is it possible that he's also incriminating himself ? Could Mueller be feeding him misdirection as well?

[GumboYaYa]

52. A friend who is a journalist in DC posted this theory on his facebook account last night.

This person is usually pretty in the know on the things moving behind the scene.

One other fact he posted is that McGahn dropped a dime on Manafort and Trump and that is how Mueller knew both were lying.

[watoos]

60. Sounds plausible but

there's something about that McGahn guy that I don't trust. Is he a savior or Judas?

[Jarqui]

55. That's the gist of my theory I posted yesterday

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211477090#post16

Makes a bunch of sense particularly where Papadopoulos, Corsi and Manafort all got rebellious with their plea deal ... like they'd all been promised a pardon ...

[SayItLoud]

56. Who's paying for ManaFART's lawyers?

Nearly everything he had was seized by Mueller team et al.

And, ManaFART's rush to get himself sentenced may indicate that tRUMP told him that the pardon would come during the Christmas pardon fest that tRUMP is planning!

[Sedona]

57. Mr Sedona put it this way: idiot kid copying the wrong answers off the other idiot kid's test

[watoos]

61. Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.

[spike91nz]

62. Maybe

Mueller is playing Manafort against Trump. In order to escape perjury he has to prove Trump is lying. Moves the conflict to between Manafort and Trump. Otherwise to make Trump’s statements consistent he would have to admit purjury or breaking plea agreement, shut-up and serve his “life” sentence.

[DeminPennswoods]

63. The one oddity that is sometimes noted is Manafort's

lawyers continued to share information with Trump's lawyers even after Manafort reached a plea deal with Mueller. AFAIK, it's standard operating procedure to sever any joint defense agreements once a deal has been reached presumably because the plea deal means you will be giving up information on those with whom you have been conducting a joing defense.

Wheeler's theory explains this oddity better than the pardon theory imho.

I believe once Gates flipped, Manafort became a "nice to have", not a "need to have" cooperator.

[George II]

65. That would not surprise me at all. He fed Manafort false information and then Manafort...

...got that information to trump. When trump wrote up his answers to Mueller's questions those answers included the false information that Manafort gave him. BINGO! Perjury trap. How could Giuliani allow this to happen?

[Merlot]

67. If trumpfts answers matched maniforts, it's not a "perjury trap"

it's conspiracy, witness tampering. Nothing Mueller did can be construed as a perjury trap.

[neohippie]

66. maybe a lawyer here can comment on this

If someone here is a criminal attorney, maybe they can come in and explain how a JDA differs in the criminal context than the civil, but I assume that the central requirements are the same.


If so, this really should be talked about more often. The main aspect of a JDA is that the parties share a common interest and therefore should be able to work together toward the same goal.

The President has a common interest in defeating a criminal charge against his campaign manager, let that sink in.

[ecstatic]

82. Yep. Laura on CNN mentioned that they were doing a joint defense

CHECKMATE M*THERF*CKER!!!