Wow, the rent really is too damn high in NYC

[Hawaii Hiker]

Average $3,459

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/realestate/rent-or-buy.html?hp

"Joan Riegel, a 69-year-old educator, started looking to buy earlier this year, when the rent on her 1,000-square-foot Upper West Side rental climbed past $5,000 a month — an increase of 25 percent. This month she moved into a $675,000 co-op in the Gramercy Park area, trimming her monthly housing cost nearly in half, to about $2,600 a month including maintenance. While her new apartment is smaller, she said, “I’m going to have so much more money.”

[PDJane]

1. It's almost that much here in Toronto, too....

Rent or buy, although trying to buy a Condo anywhere you'd want to live is outrageous, too!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

17. But does anyone actually live in those condos?

The company I work for owns four units in a condo near the downtown airport for employee use and there are never any cars in the parking garage, I never see people in the elevators and looking out the window at night I see very few lights on at neighboring buildings.

[PDJane]

19. My son's girlfriend lives in a Condo down there when she's here in Toronto,

And my son lives in an apartment there. They're both looking to relocate; DS is paying more than 2,000 in rent for a 650 foot apartment with no sauna or pool! They're looking to move somewhere further out along the lake. Apart from the cost, the noise of the Gardiner is astounding!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

22. I found that strange...

Of the half dozen odd full-time residents I have actually seen and talked to there, half of them will go full Grandpa Simpson and hyperventilate about the airport. Yet the airport seems to be drowned out by absolutely everything else. (Personally, I love it seeing as I can be in downtown Ottawa inside of 90 minutes.)

[PDJane]

23. Both of them love the airport!

But both of them fly around all over the damn place and leave from that airport when they can. Mostly, those who hyperventilate about the airport are just repeating the stuff they've been told about why it's so bad. The STOL's are nearly soundless when compared to the traffic sounds, including the streetcars. They all get together and hyperventilate about it together; they have very little else to do with their spare time, I think. Mind you, it can be dangerous for the water birds, but that's not their complaint! They don't seem to like the water birds anymore than the airport. It's bizarre.

[nanabugg]

33. Rent is one of the biggest drags on economic recovery but no one talks about it because the

landlords are you know who...and they don't give a shit. The rents are certainly not only too high for living but too high for small businesses. It is a bigger burden than the taxes they have to pay but it is easier to complain about government taxes than about the landlord who might raise your rent or refuse your new lease if you complain too much. I am friends with a small business owner (Beer&Wine Deli). He pays very high rent and yet he and the rest of the strip mall business owners can't get the landlord to fix plumbing, clean parking lot, and carry out general maintenance. Business don't hire more because the rents are eating them up. With amount of vacant space in major cities one would think that some kind of rent controls would be easy to enact and enforce yet this isn't even on the radar. My suggestion is that if landlords don't join in with trying to help the economy then their rental income should be taxed higher.

[sendero]

37. Aw come on...

... rents are a CLASSIC supply/demand equation. The reason rents are so high is that everybody wants to live there. Want rents to go down? Get people to want to live somewhere else.

[Doremus]

53. Agreed.

Unless you have one landlord owning most of the rentals in a given market, supply and demand will determine prevailing rent.

Trying to broadbrush all landlords as evil one-percenters is about as far from reality as one can get.

[leveymg]

2. A short while ago, there were those arguing that $100,000 a year is too much to be middle-class.

Last edited Sat Aug 18, 2012, 06:55 PM - Edit history (1)

In NYC, particularly the Upper East and West Sides, it's not half-enough to be able to afford to even live there.

I think those who were arguing that point were trying to justify the fact that under ObamaCare there are no caps on increases in private health insurance premiums for those with incomes that exceed 500% of the poverty line, which is about $19,000 year for a family of 3.

[JaneyVee]

5. In NYC (Manhattan only) middle class is considered $103,000/yr.

In the heart of San Fran it's $105,000/yr.

[leveymg]

14. In the Upper East Side, the median income is $249,000.

Try finding a place to live there for a family of 3 on $105K. Good luck.

[JaneyVee]

28. True. Which is why I live on the Lower East Side.

Upper East side is SUPER-RICH.

[waddirum]

51. did you know that your neighborhood has a theme song written by Joe Jackson

[NYC_SKP]

52. Say hello to 283 E. Houston for me.

Third floor, my old place.

[pinboy3niner]

3. Gee, where have we heard that before?

[JaneyVee]

4. Seriously, it is. I live here. Although mine isn't nearly that high, MANY people's are.

[meaculpa2011]

6. We moved out of the UES of Manhattan when...

the rent got bumped up to $250 a month.

Never looked back.

I can live dirt poor in a NYC compartment on $100,000 plus per year, making the landlord or the co-op manager rich. Or I can live a few miles outside of the city with a big backyard for my kids to play and have cash in my pocket. I won't even complain about the $12,000 in property taxes since friends of ours are paying $40,000 per year, per child for private schools in the city.

Our mortgage will be paid off in about a year and our total monthly expenses won't be $3,459.

No contest. Best decision we ever made.

[On the Road]

7. My Daughter Just Moved Out of an Apartement on the Lower East Side

9th and Ave A, across from St. Marks Square. It was 150 square feet. The rent was $1,700.

[Matariki]

8. That's called 'a room'. And a small one at that.

And people wonder why I adamantly don't want to live in NYC

[On the Road]

9. Just to Clarify, She Didn't Move Because of Graduation, Not Due to the Cost

and she loved the location. But the size was an issue.

As a point of comparison -- since the 70s, all new apartments have to be at least 400 square feet. In NYC no less.

[NYC_SKP]

54. It might be a studio apartment. I've seen them as small as 80 square feet.

With loft bed over shower/toilet/sink, and a combo cooktop/sink/fridge, there's still room for a table for two.

[Matariki]

59. Prison cells are probably larger

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. That is a great location, though

Back in my day, very different down over there. Those were the days of the riots, though. LES was always exciting. Probably people squatting that room back then...

[kestrel91316]

11. That's the size of my hallway, hall closet, and bathroom (in my 700 sf 1-BR).

[mrmpa]

12. My walk in closet is...........

84 sq. feet. My 2 bedroom 2 bath, 1200 sq. foot condo is 400 miles removed from NYC, mortgage including taxes is $560 a month.

[winstars]

57. Its Tompkins Square Park, we had a pretty good riot there with the NYPD in 1988

The beginning of just what we are talking about in this thread...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tompkins_Square_Park_Police_Riot_(1988)

[aikoaiko]

13. That co-op mortgage has to include a $200,000 - $250000 down payment for that monthly

right?

[marybourg]

29. And then there's the monthly payments on the mortgage.

This article makes on sense at all.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

15. Choosing to live in New York is just one of lifes little intelligence tests

If you live there and aren't a multimillionaire you're probably just too stupid to leave. And if you just plain insist on living there for the pretensions - well you certainly aren't deserving of sympathy.

[meaculpa2011]

16. New York is a big city...

with plenty of neighborhoods where the cost of living is affordable.

Our first house was an attached two-family. We lived cheaply enough to save a good chunk of money and then move. If we had decided to stay, we would have been very happy there. Nice community. Diverse population. We still have many friends there and visit regularly.

However... if you're just talking about the toney locations (not just in Manhattan) you're absolutely right.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

18. I wasn't entirely talking about money...

I would characterize choosing to live in Brownsville just as stupid as paying Manhattan rent. I'm just a walking suburban California stereotype who has erotic fantasies involving riding lawnmowers... but I just scratch my head when I try to imagine what is appealing to an ordinary person who isn't eating $200 a plate dinners and drinking $40 cocktails.

[meaculpa2011]

24. I'm a life-long New Yorker and I played basketball at...

the Brownsville Boys Club when I was a kid. It was much more dangerous back then than it is now.

I understand all of the negative stereotypes about New York and New Yorkers, but it's a great city and a great place to live. You just have to know how to negotiate the potholes, literally and figuratively.

The cultural life is unmatched. We have great recreational opportunities and at least two teams in every professional sport. Happy hours with 75 cent oysters and half-priced cocktails are available on every block. We're in town at least two nights a week taking advantage of special restaurant offers, $26 Family Circle tickets at the Metropolitan Opera and free concerts in the park, free lectures at one of the many universities, free street theater... YAY! FREE!!!

Just walking down McDougall Street on a warm August night is an entertainment experience.

That's not to say that I don't love suburban life. We were dyed-in-the-wool city kids who never dreamed we would become suburbanites. We did. We're just very lucky that our suburb happens to be 18 miles from Times Square.

[aikoaiko]

30. Anyone know how much Stuy Town apartments are these days

My brother and wife once rented a 2-bed place on 18th & 1st for $1250 but they moved out in 1995.

I've wondered what it is now.

[meaculpa2011]

35. Those days are long gone.

A one bedroom goes for $2,500 plus in that neighborhood.

[CabCurious]

41. NYC is big... and this is why most intelligent people have avoided manhattan for 20 years

[Lucky Luciano]

45. Gotta remember that one has real potential to earn 7 figures in NYC.

...if they can stick it out and push push push! This will often mean working 12 hour days minimum. So, nobody wants to commute after that...and if you are young, then the fantastic restaurants, clubs, all at your fingertips is irresistible. We just had a baby and our cost of living is down because it is hard to enjoy Saturday night like we used to! I still need the short commute because I work my ass off, so I will have to pay the Manhattan premium. Actually, the baby will increase our cost of living since we will need a two bedroom place in about 6 months - $5,000+ rent, here we come.

[Tom Ripley]

20. Contemporary NYC = Art vs. Real Estate

Real Estate won

[Initech]

21. My brother and his girlfriend pay like $2400 a month for a very small apartment in Central Park area

[flamingdem]

25. Young people survive by sharing 3 or 4 to an apartment

not fun in my opinion, after a certain age.

[Speck Tater]

26. Yikes!

All that money and not even a place to grown your own veggies. What kind of a way to live is that?

[rug]

27. That;s the average for Manhattan not NYC.

[WooWooWoo]

31. correct

average in all 5 boroughs combined is $2900 - with Manhattan being the most expensive and Queens being the least expensive.

I plan on going to school in NYC when I get out of the army and the housing allowance the GI Bill gives you is based off of the average rental price of a given area. In NYC is about $2900. Other places like San Francisco are $2400 or someplace like Nashville is around $1200.

[rug]

32. Good luck. There's plenty of good schools to choose rom.

[CabCurious]

42. There are ways to live cheaply in NYC... if you work at it!

For young people, you can share an apartment in queens, bronx, or brooklyn. If you look for LOCAL listings and check the postings in neighborhoods, you'll get the best deals. You can also look for sublets to get started.

A lot of the "expense" arguments for NYC don't account for the ridiculous range that people pay for things they don't even need.

Yes, you can spend $7 on a slice of pizza... if you're an idiot.

Or you can get a gigantic meal with half a chicken, a stack of rice and beans, and some veggies for $5. That might require going into a place that mostly speaks Spanish or French, but it's worth it!

New Yorkers who PLAN to save money and don't mind being really active (walking) can do wonders with their money, especially if they insist on cutting housing and travel costs (i.e. trains & buses, not taxis).

Good luck!

[meaculpa2011]

55. Absolutely true!

All it takes is planning and a little creativity. My father told me that any idiot can pay top dollar for everything. He supported a family, a nice home and a relatively comfortable lifestyle working as a presser in a sweatshop. He often ran out of cash by Thursday, so it meant spaghetti marinara for dinner, but we never went without. Dad is still looking for bargains and doing repair jobs around the house at age 90.

Most Manhattanites couldn't scramble an egg or change a light bulb if their lives depended on it.

I told a friend recently that I grind my own coffee for my Keurig.

"It's five cents a cup instead of 50, and I make it just the way I like it."

"That's a lot of work," he said.

"That's okay. I take a nap afterward." Good grief!

[Hawaii Hiker]

34. One thing about NYC though is you don't need car if u live in Manhattan

So you save on car payment, insurance, gas & maintenance....You can walk, subway, or cab ride to just about anyplace....I haven't been there in about 5 years, but they probably have a shuttle service from Manhattan to the 3 near-by airports as well....

[meaculpa2011]

36. The subway is great, but...

it's pretty much designed to get passengers into Manhattan. It's next to useless for getting around in the outer boroughs unless it's along the Manhattan-bound routes. I had a long bus ride (three busses) every day for four years in high school. Got nauseous twice a day for four years. When we lived in Manhattan I needed a car so we had to negotiate the "alternate side" puzzle on days I wasn't working. I worked in Far Rockaway and the subway ride was nearly two hours each way--when the tracks across Jamaica Bay weren't flooded.

There's AirTrain service to JFK and Newark. Super Shuttle is $15 per person from Midtown to LaGuardia. I take AirTrain from Long Island to JFK and it's very convenient. LIRR to Jamaica then the AirTrain goes right into the terminal.

[smokey nj]

38. It gets worst the farther away from Manhattan you get.

My husband grew up in the Dyker Heights/Bay Ridge section of Brooklyn, not far from the Verrazano Bridge. The only subway line in his neck of the woods was the R train which goes local the whole damned way. People were shocked that we didn't move into his mother's house after she died, but our current home in NJ is actually more convenient to the city than his childhood home in Brooklyn.

[meaculpa2011]

39. Dyker is transit paradise compared with...

most parts of Queens. Double fare is a practical necessity and the train/bus ride is a nightmare. At least in Dyker you can walk to the golf course. Plenty of great bars, as well. However... I was on the F train last week and it traveled at about 5 MPH and made a stop every two blocks. Torture! If I had to do that every day I'd buy a one-way ticket to a golf course community in North Carolina.

The subway system was designed when Brooklyn and Queens were mostly farming villages. I lived on the Brooklyn/Queens border in the 50s and there was a farm at the end of my block and a dairy farm next to my school.

I'd love to move to Hoboken. Quick trip on PATH, but it's getting just as crowded and expensive as Manhattan.

[smokey nj]

43. Hoboken is just as expensive as Manhattan now. The Jersey City waterfront is slightly cheaper, but

not much. The good thing about JC is you get more bang for your buck than you do in either Manhattan or Hoboken and you still have the same, short commute. You'd still paying over 2K a month for apartments in Jersey City, but you would also get lots of amenities for the money. Most of the new buildings along the waterfront have gyms and pools, and most include a washer and dryer in each unit.

[CabCurious]

46. If you work in the city... you may as well live in the city

There are cheaper areas away from lower manhattan.

It just takes a lot of honest investigation, which is overwhelming considering how huge, complicated, and constantly changing the city is.

[meaculpa2011]

50. When we first moved...

out of the city I had an office in Chelsea. 35 minutes into Penn Station and a short walk to my office. Then most of my clients moved their HQs to NJ, Westchester, Stamford, etc. so I had to drive anyway. When my lease was up I added an extension to the house and made a home office overlooking the water. That was 25 years ago and I have never regretted it, except when I waste too much time looking at the swans instead of working.

[smokey nj]

56. Not necessarily.

Like I said up thread, Bayonne, NJ where my husband and I live is more convenient to Manhattan than Bay Ridge, Brooklyn where he grew up. It's also A LOT cheaper as far as rent and sales taxes are concerned.

[Hawaii Hiker]

47. $15 for Super Shuttle is pretty reasonable

and isn;t there a shuttle service that takes people from airports to the 8th avenue bus terminal to?..

As high as rents are in NYC, the cost to park a car monthly is probably not far behind in the rent amount.

Does Manhattan have big grocery stores in the City, or is it mostly just small stores...

[CabCurious]

40. That's Manhattan's average... and why sensible people leave manhattan

[CabCurious]

44. There are TWO KINDS of New Yorkers

Type A: Complains about living in NYC to their friends out-of-city, but pretends to love it with friends in the city.
Type B: Complains about NYC to other New Yorkers, but not to those out-of-city.


Type A: Spends $35 dollars on a taxi ride back from Laguardia... and doesn't even bother looking at alternatives.
Type B: Knows there's a bus and has already planned on taking it regardless of how tired or busy they feel. They pull out a book for the last step home.


Type A: Thinks Brooklyn is nice to visit for parties and such, but would never want to be "that far away." Doesn't like going above 96th street. Would rather pay twice as much for practically everything. Dreams of living in a tall building with a doorman.
Type B: Loves the quiet places in Brooklyn, Harlem, Queens, and the Bronx. Likes getting away from lower Manhattan and enjoys the phenomenal reduction in cost of living. Dreams of a brownstone with a yard and garden.


Type A: Complains about buses and trains. Never invests in a monthly Metrocard. Spends lots of money on taxis.
Type B: Has learned how to maximize cross-town buses and cross-borough transportation.


Type A: Never asks for directions.
Type B: Always stops to give directions to lost people, especially tourists.


Type A: Hates walking. Doesn't like to just wander around the city.
Type A: Loves walking. Loves to wander around the city, especially in places they've never been.


Type A: Feels uncomfortable in places where almost everybody is non-white.
Type B: Loves diversity. Loves going around the city and feeling culture shock.


Type A: Rarely cooks. Orders delivery a lot or stops for take-out. Accepts a very large portion of their income being devoted to gourmet food and convenience shopping
Type B: Finds healthy food sources and saves a lot of money by being healthier. When they "eat out," it's usually to enjoy something interesting.

[brooklynite]

48. Sadly, living in New York doesn't automatically mean living in Manhattan...

Cheaper apartments in the outer boroughs.

[stevenleser]

49. Wages in NYC are generally double

The wages for the same job in most other places in the US. Add that if you live in manhattan, you don't need a car, and a $3000/month rent becomes the equivalent of a $1000/month rent elsewhere.

[Cal Carpenter]

58. These are both very expensive neighborhoods

I'm not trying to say that rent/housing is not overall ridiculously, prohibitively expensive in NYC, because it is.

However, the UWS and Gramercy areas are both particularly expensive, fancier, 'nicer' parts of Manhattan. Just want to point out that this woman is not typical of an average working class New Yorker.