General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPaper Ballots Anyone?
We need to demand to our states, all of them and any place in the Us and Territories where elections take place should be by paper ballot. If we demand it now, there can be no excuses about not enough time or any other reason. 20 months should be sufficient to convert, the nation depends on this transition back to paper ballots and all the protections we should have can be facilitated with a paper ballot system. It worked before computers, it can still work now.
Let's do this, it's a no-brainer and the time is now.
Onyrleft
(344 posts)we have to do this.
fierywoman
(7,685 posts)MurrayDelph
(5,299 posts)Our Senator Ron Wyden wants to make the Oregon/Washington model the law of the land.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,349 posts)Smart phone, online, voting machine -- they all share the same shortfalls. People cannot see what happens in the machine. When you 'click', you cannot confirm the device, machine, or "app" did what you intended. The only thing you can verify is that it changed something. The public cannot verify that you participated in a valid election process.
With paper ballots:
1. The voter can confirm the ballot reflects the choices of the voter.
2. The voter can confirm the ballot was placed in the proper receptacle for all ballots.
3. The public can verify that the voter placed 1 ballot in the proper receptacle.
4. The public can verify that the receptacle is not tampered with.
5. The public can verify the count of the ballots.
Electronic means of voting eliminate all of the above, for the sake of reporting a fast number that cannot be verified to be associated with actual votes.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)pansypoo53219
(20,978 posts)2naSalit
(86,646 posts)The one in Wisconsin or the one in Oregon?
pansypoo53219
(20,978 posts)PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,862 posts)Also, during the lengthy advance voting time, and now on election day itself, you can go to any polling station anywhere in the county and they print up the precise ballot you need on the spot. What should happen everywhere.
akraven
(1,975 posts)AND keeping a copy!
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)Never got to vote by mail until I moved to Montana but I don't recall ever using a machine or computer to vote, even when I lived in southern California some time ago we were using paper punch cards.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)We need to help everyone else get them. there are still too many places where the electronics are "the thing" so we should try to help those voters get paper ballots.
Greywing
(1,124 posts)and as of a couple of election cycles ago we all receive our "paper" ballots in the mail. You can mail them back, take them to a polling place and fill out the ballot there or return to a secured collection box. You can also track when your ballot was sent to you and when it was accepted. I think it works great!
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)but it's called absentee. We can deliver it however as long as they get it by election day. I like that process. Regardless of whether it's mail in or at the polls, votes should be cast on paper, period.
In the states where paper is not the means by which to cast a vote, we have to demand it of the secretaries of state in those states.
UCmeNdc
(9,600 posts)alfredo
(60,074 posts)Big states like Texas and Alaska might have trouble getting the results in a timely manner, but what's the hurry. There should always be at least two persons representing both parties in possession of the ballots at all times. Chain of custody is a top priority. If they are electronically transferred to DC, the encryption better be the strongest they can make.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)I do. I think that you are correct about chain of command and what's the hurry elements. I know we can do it and with the integrity required.
Two things made me get all fired up about this yesterday.
1. The reports of the latest hacking events.
2. Talking with a psychotherapist who claimed that the majority of the people and clients they know have no faith in government, no faith in elections, the justice system (all of it), the legislature. They lamented a sense of giving up among them, they are tired of all this shit while starving in the streets. I agree, I was living on the street for ten months recently, the primary objective of every day is survival at the most elementary levels. This needs to change.
People are down, what happens in the immediate and near future is crucial. Faith in government needs some restoration. The Blue Wave election was a nice flicker of light at the end of the sewer pipe, there's still a ways to go... just how far it is to the end of the pipe is up to us at the state level as much as the federal.
A simple place to start is ensuring free and fair elections and that can only be accomplished by physical ballots that can be recounted with confidence of result. And that is at the state level. IIRC, results were actually phoned to the central counting place, as long as there are physical ballots to back it up, what's the problem?
And it could help create jobs with Public Trust requirements, no volunteers for jobs with responsibility.
alfredo
(60,074 posts)We would hand carry our results to the county clerk.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)I can't figure out a 50 logistical plan in less than a month but I know that each state has the capacity to do this and do it properly and they can figure out the logistics. They have over 18 months to get their shit together, less for primaries of course, but they still have time to make the shift if they get strong notice from their constituents now, not 6 months from now.
Legislatures are going back into session, as in my state, they meet for several months every year and set a two year budget. They are not in session all that long so it is imperative to get their attention now.
alfredo
(60,074 posts)So far the security of the vote in our county has been very good, and the chain of custody is strong. The main tabulator is isolated from the internet. I worked the polls for 14 years and have faith in the ethics of those that run the show.
We will have paper back up by 2020.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)It was run through a scanner when I was finished. Having used the scanner for years at the University of California I think theyre safe.
It cant be hard to convert every state to paper ballots.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)This has to be done.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Early voting and you arent confined to any precinct so if youre driving past polling location you can just stop there to vote. Since NM has Real ID now, which is just as good as a passport for ID, they just find you in their system and hand you the paper ballot. Its easy peazy though getting the Real ID has really strict steps. But when you get the Real ID you can register to vote at the same time.
brooklynite
(94,595 posts)There is no safe solution to voting.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)and how about a copy of the ballot for each voter so that verification can be done through producing the ballot copies which can be stamped or something? Like I said, I can't assess all the logistics but I know it's possible and needs to happen.
brooklynite
(94,595 posts)All you'll know is the aggregate total.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)There are public servants who would be able to create a system, perhaps like it used to be done prior to computerized voting, to function in their states in such a way as to do their best to verify votes by a secondary physical proof system.
Please, I said I don't have all the answers.
This is a participatory system of government, why should I come up with all the ideas and correct answers for millions and millions of voters? Everybody needs to participate and I am trying to remind everyone that we have an immediate problem that needs to be addressed with expediency and since it affects me, even though I vote by mail, I am calling attention to the issue with a suggestion or two.
Jeezus, I need another cup of coffee.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)is there?
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)If your state doesn't, it's time to get to work there. Contact your state legislators and tell them what you want.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)samnsara
(17,622 posts)..wash even pre stamps our return envelope. I think Oregon has a QR code or some verification so you can track that your ballot has been received and counted.
MontanaMama
(23,322 posts)and if takes longer to count them then so what, it is worth it. I always vote absentee in MT and take a copy or a photo of my ballot before I walk it into an elections office and put it in the black box myself. Paper ballots are the way to go.
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)MontanaMama
(23,322 posts)to the elections office so you can get the little I voted sticker!
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)IADEMO2004
(5,555 posts)Iowa just started in 2018 at last.
Still have GOP fuckery to deal with of what is a postmark to verify dates of early voting.
montanacowboy
(6,090 posts)for a long time
We all vote by mail!
Time the rest of the country got on board and threw those crooked piece of shit voting machines on the ash heap of history
TrogL
(32,822 posts)LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)There are lots of very smart people doing fascinating work on cryptographic voting protocols. We should be funding and encouraging them, and doing all our elections with paper ballots until everyone currently working in that field has retired.
https://m.xkcd.com/2030/?fbclid=IwAR0flFzgfBnPfAMuJqqSgT3vqLZf6oU0joApAyKNjFt1PHHUffdgYvugI18
2naSalit
(86,646 posts)Good toon!