I have never been on a date with a man and ended up in a hotel room

[malaise]

without assuming we were there for sex.
Sorry if this seems controversial.
Just saying.

[demmiblue]

1. I have. Several times in my youth.

I was never sexually assaulted.

Just saying.

[onit2day]

97. The convention was in the hotel I think. Could be wrong

[Cosmocat]

101. Her statement was the room they went into was in another hotel

nm

[Raven]

2. I agree but if I got there and changed my mind? What then? n/t

[malaise]

116. Hope the guy is one of the decent ones on this thread

[spooky3]

3. Tyson was not on a date with Fairfax, according to

her account. She accompanied him when he went to pick up papers.

[HipChick]

4. Agree...Worked a job that involved a lot of travel..

Lots of hotel stays due to work, you would not believe the amount of invitations I got back to a man's hotel room

I never once found myself back in a man's hotel room...I'm not naive

[malaise]

9. Same here

Once I interviewed a celebrity in his hotel suite, but the minute he picked up the phone to order champagne, the interview was over. I can still see his shocked face.

[skypilot]

50. Was it David Spade?

Please say it was David Spade.

[malaise]

58. Hahaha - No n/t

[skypilot]

59. Damn.

*

[moriah]

61. At least finances didn't make you have to share.

Seriously, first project out I was running cable, walked into the main training week session and there were 99 guys... and me. 50 electricians, 49 other cable techs.

We were sent to southern California, where the cheapest dankest hotel rooms were still what our per diem was together. And hadn't gotten our first paychecks, either.

Well, at least having him there meant staying in the cheap dank hotel meant I only had HIM to potentially fear, instead of some stranger. And I tried to give him his privacy, as he did for me. As much of it as was possible, at least.

Once I became more established and could demand that my boss cover the difference between per diem and hotel rates if the area was just too expensive for even single-rate per diem could cover... well, often I'd have to go back to one or the other of their rooms for *something*, or invite them into mine. And while I'd try to get as much of the group together as possible, sometimes it *was* just me and the team lead.

And honestly, I felt far more comfortable in their rooms than letting them in mine, once I had my own, when such meetings had to happen and the hallway/breakfast area was not convenient.

[malaise]

62. Yours is a great post

You raise the real issue of not having a choice - thank you.

[Fla Dem]

89. Agree, even if you go with someone to their hotel to "pick up some papers" you don't go

up to the room with them. You wait in the lobby. It's common sense. I'm not saying Dr Tyson isn't telling the truth, but a woman sends a signal to a guy when she accompanies him to his room. Just as the man sends a signal when he says, "come on up to my room with me".

Let me put it another way. Let say the papers were at his home and he said come with me while I pick up my papers at my house/apt. When they get there should the woman stay in the car? I say yes. Why go in if he's just picking up something? If she does accompany him into the house, and he said my papers are in my bedroom come in with me while I get them, he is clearly sending a signal, and if the woman agrees, she too has sent a signal.

Having said all that, once they are in the bedroom, and the man makes a move the woman totally did not anticipate and wants to go, the man, regardless of how worked up he is, must let the woman go.

[malaise]

120. I don''t know if she has sent a signal

What I do know is that there are men who assume that she has sent a signal.
Of course he should let her go but what if he doesn't - I didn't plan to find out.

[bigtree]

5. ouch

...too many variables regarding consent.

[exboyfil]

6. Where were you when Mike Tyson needed you

I was at a science fiction convention just after college graduation. I was part of a large group that shared a room (yes ten folks in a room - it was a thing then). I met a woman at the convention who was a sophomore that I enjoyed being with. We did virtually everything together.

We went back to the room and went to sleep sometime during the day (we had been up all night watching Doctor Who). We were the only two in the room at the time.

I later asked her out on a date. Ate at a restaurant and went to a movie.

That is how a gentlemen does it.

[spooky3]

8. In my field, in the 1980s, job interviews at conventions

Were commonly conducted in hotel rooms, by all male interviewers.

[xmas74]

154. I remember having a few interviews in hotel rooms

for new places opening up in a town. Those interviews were usually one-on-one and were mostly service related positions in the early and mid nineties.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

7. Have you ever on a business trip and been in the hotel of a male colleague?

[malaise]

12. I've been on several trips

Attended a plethora of conferences and most of us stayed at hotels close by.

In my youth I worked with an airline and traveled the planet.

But read my OP. I said if I was on a date with a man and he invited me to his hotel room, my first assumption is that there will be sex. Maybe I was just a silly old fashioned lady but sex on first dates was a no no. My decision-making process kicked in long before I reached a hotel room.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

15. A date has nothing to do with being at a convention and accompanying a colleague to the hotel.

[malaise]

17. I only went into colleagues rooms with others

or if these were my good friends - people who we welcome in our home

[dsc]

19. that really shouldn't be going on

teaching had our own metoo long before society as a whole. When my dad was teaching (from the mid 60's to the 90's) it was common for teachers to be alone, behind closed doors, with students. Now I wouldn't dream of doing that nor did I though out my teaching career (late 90's to now). I would hope businesses have realized the folly of coworkers who aren't very close friends being in hotel rooms together.

[47of74]

90. If my work tried to make me share a room with a coworker my response would be go to hell.

I'd refuse to go on the trip even if it meant having to leave the job. I have enough of my coworkers as it is and I'm not about to share hotel rooms with them.

[Oneironaut]

10. Look! Another way of saying, "She was asking for it!"

We all know you’d all be trying to bury Fairfax right now if he were a Republican. I don’t think anyone should resign, but let’s not be hypocritical.

[demmiblue]

14. +1

It really is quite unbelievable.

[Ms. Toad]

45. Not only that, but building a strawman to say, "She was asking for it."

She was NOT on a date with him, so the analogy that was intended to say, "She was asking for it," was not even an accurate analogy.

[AncientGeezer]

82. Right.....damn.

[uponit7771]

117. False equivalency, if Fairfax was a republican he supports an admitted sexual assaulter as leader of

... the KGOP so he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.

[Marengo]

11. Irrelevant, as consent can be revoked at any point and for any reason.

[Charlotte Little]

13. Really just wow

Shame on you. And you're not sorry this thread is controversial.

Let's see, using your logic - I have never:

- drank too much around a man, without assuming we were going to have sex.
- dressed in a sexy outfit around a man, certainly not a skirt with easy access, without assuming we were going to have sex.
- hung out at a man's apartment and snuggled up against him on the couch, without assuming we were going to have sex.
- sent flirtatious/naughty texts to a man, without assuming we were going to have sex.
- sat in on a job interview alone with a man, without assuming we were going to have sex.
- asked a man for help fixing my car, computer, etc., without assuming we were going to have sex.
- been anywhere at anytime with man simply being a woman, without assuming we were going to have sex.

What men (and women) who think like this do is objectify women and make the assumption that men are nothing more than rapey little, drooling boys who can't control themselves or, God forbid, stop when it's clear the woman is not into the sexy time.

I don't know what happened in that hotel between Fairfax and Tyson, but any of you using this logic should be ashamed of yourselves. Truly despicable to shame a woman and imply it's her fault if she's assaulted/raped just for going to a hotel room with a man. Let's all just head on back to the 1940s and 50s, why don't we?

[avebury]

49. Every decision that a person makes, every action that a person takes

has consequences - some intentional and some unintentional. A dose of common sense and/or forethought can play a huge roll as to whether or not a consequence is positive or negative. This pertains to everything you face in life, including sexual situations. A woman could consider whether or not she is putting herself in a situation that creates immediate risk. A man could consider what are the odds that a woman might, down the road, claim some type of assault even if it was consensual at the time. There is always a risk to both sides when, at some point down the road, a claim of assault is made and resulting in endless debate if there is not cooberating evidence of some form from that earlier time.

I would hope that a person who has been attacked in the past found some way to document what happened whether it be talking to friends, saving any type of physical evidence (Monica Lewinsky kept the dress), whatever.

I have a problem with he said/she said if neither side has any form of cooberating evidence because, in the era of the Me Too Movement and extreme dirty politics, it is far to easy to make a claim against a public figure. Look at what happened to Al Franken. Amazingly enough, once he resigned from the US Senate there were no further allegations raised against him. Real victims need a path to obtain some type of justice. False flag "victims" make it difficult for real victims to be heard. I refuse to automatically believe either side just because a claim or denial is made. Even if the Statute of Limitation has expired, I would want to know what does both side have that they could introduce into a court case if they were in a position to take the matter to court?

[Charlotte Little]

84. Not even relevant

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but it's irrelevant to my response to the OP. Her statement was outright blaming women. And sadly, so many people STILL think this way.

There is NEVER a situation in which a man can force himself on a woman and she is part to blame and should have known that there were consequences to her actions. NEVER.

And no argument will ever change that.

[avebury]

118. There is no valid excuse for one person committing an unprovoked attack on another person

(of any kind). That aside, common sense goes a long way and I think that being the victim of an attack should not be used as an excuse for poor judgement. A novice skier doesn't go down an expert trail. A person who can't swim shouldn't jump in the deep end of a pool. You don't try to cross a highway on foot. You should think twice before going up to the hotel room of someone of the opposite sex (How well do you really know the other person and what might or might not happen?). You don't invite people of the opposite sex to your hotel room (Again, how well do you really know the other person and could they claim sexual assault years later even if it was consensual at the time?).

Risk does not rest solely with one gender.

[Charlotte Little]

133. How much more are you willing to spend

your energy on trying to somehow make this about "both sides?"

Again, I don't know (nor do you, nor does anyone but the two parties involved know) what happened in that hotel room in 2004.

But if, IF, Tyson is telling the truth, then the argument that she should have known better than to go to the hotel room of a man at a conference where they have a mutual friend in broad daylight under the pretense of him picking up some papers (if she's telling the truth - so far, he's not denied any of that) is not only egregious - it's sinister.

Even if she'd gone to his hotel room after a date and drinking, he still didn't have the right to force himself on her.

NO MAN DOES.

And honestly, it's disturbing that you're likening avoiding sexual assault to pro-skiing, swimming in the deep end and crossing a highway. Well, us poor little women. We'd better just stay inside all day with our chastity belts locked. Because God forbid we run into a member of the opposite sex who, as we all know, just can't help himself. And if that happens...well, there are threats out there, girls. You shouldn't take the risk without understanding the consequences. Use your common sense!

This is gross, Avebury. Gross.

[MineralMan]

16. I've never been on a date with a woman and ended up in a hotel room

without thinking it might end up being a sexual encounter. Sometimes it did, and sometimes it didn't. It all depended on what was wanted by both people. I didn't assume it would, although I knew it might. Almost always, such situations happened at things like trade shows and conventions and were not based on long-term relationships, but just chance encounters that developed into something else.

Unless there was mutual enthusiasm for sex, though it didn't happen. A couple of time, there was sleeping, without any sex. Other times, the woman left to return to her room after a while. More often than not, though, things ended up as a sexual encounter. You just never know how things will turn out.

[malaise]

18. Thank you brother

[MineralMan]

30. My pleasure.

I knew what you meant in your original post. I was just providing a male perspective to such situations. Every decision like that is subject to change. Going to someone's hotel room is just consent to go to someone's hotel room. Sometimes, things turn around from the original idea. I remember one instance:

Her: "You know, I'm having second thoughts about this. This just isn't something I do, normally."
Me: "OK. That's not a problem. No worries."
Her: "That's sweet of you. Can I have another glass of wine before I go?"
Me: "Of course."

Everything is flexible. Nobody is ever harmed by not having sex at every opportunity. As it turned out, that instance led to exchanging emails and phone calls. Six months later, she and I got married. That was 28 years ago.

[malaise]

37. You my dear brother are a gentleman

I have a few friends like you.

Love your story. How lovely for both of you.

[MineralMan]

44. That's how my mother raised me.

I try to be. Actually, my wife told me later that evening was one of the reasons she married me. Now, we're a lot older than we were then, but we're still each other's best friends, too.

My mother was (and still is) a very smart woman. She didn't tell me why I should try to always be a gentleman. I learned that later. But, I always tried to follow her advice.

I've been married twice, both times to someone I considered to be my best friend, among other things. The first time went all awry after 17 years, but we remained friends, even after the marriage ended. My current wife likes my ex-wife, too. We all ran into each other often, so why not get along?

Relationships are all full of emotions, but needn't be overly dramatic or contentious. Things can usually work out if everyone keeps their cool and lets negative stuff pass by.

[EffieBlack]

57. A male friend once invited me to his room for a drink

I said, "I don't know. I like you but I don't want this to go any further"
Him: "Why would that happen? I know what no means. I wasn't raised by wolves."

He eventually did become my SO - because he's one of the good ones.

[malaise]

60. That's the point - there are gentlemen and there

are scumbags .

[madaboutharry]

20. According to her statement, she went to his hotel room for the

purpose of getting some documents.

it s very troubling.

[malaise]

22. Well this coward would have received the documents

in the hotel lobby or any other public space in the hotel.
I remember being verbally abused by a fellow academic for refusing to go to his room.
That was fine by me.

[madaboutharry]

31. I would do the same and would have said something like:

"Oh great, I'll be waiting right here while you go get them."

Who knows what is going through people's minds. The bottom line is that she did not want sex and claims to be a victim of sexual assault. If her version of the story is true, that is where we are. I am not going to blame her for trusting him.

[malaise]

35. I don't trust easily

Never did and I'm not blaming her. I always knew what goes through a lot of men's minds and I was not going to his room.

[ooky]

46. That is in fact where the situation is, and they both deserve to be heard.

So let the investigation begin. He should not step down or be intimidated into stepping down until there is sufficient evidence against him other than an accusation.

[Bonx]

21. So after walking in the door and kissing

a woman should expect a cock forced down her throat?
Somehow that doesn't seem right.

[malaise]

25. There is nothing right about it

I agree with you 100%, but I wasn't walking in the door let alone kissing.

[Bonx]

27. So she should have known it was coming? maybe she even asked for it?

I'm still confused as to what you are explaining.

[ooky]

47. Nor does it make sense (to me) that anyone would continue having any kind of contact

afterward with someone who did that.

[AncientGeezer]

125. She says she didn't...

[at140]

127. I have not seen that she continued contact

With him. But I could have missed it.

[ooky]

131. I saw a report on M$M where he was saying that

at least a couple days ago. I can't remember if it was MSNBC or CNN, but I'm sure I wasn't the only one who saw it.

[panader0]

23. Motels always make me horny.

[MaryMagdaline]

24. Did you assume all types of sex would take place?

Or just the sexual acts you would consent to?

[malaise]

28. That's a really good question

Clearly consent matters, but unless I knew you I wasn't planning to be surprised.

[GetRidOfThem]

95. that is the main issue

Consent. I am a male, and have worked with other females I was attracted to in the same hotel room. But there was no explicit consent, so it was work only. And there is more: even trying to make something happen without an ironclad understanding at first puts the female (or male) in an uncomfotable position, and could be construed as harassment.

Yes, we can be attracted, be in the same hotel room, and have nothing happen. So I do not blame anyone for letting somebody in their hotel room. It is NOT an automatic invitation.

[malaise]

100. That is because you are decent

I never assumed that I'd only run into gentlemen.

[GetRidOfThem]

136. if we were all decent, we would not have these problems...

Last edited Thu Feb 7, 2019, 07:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Yet it is within all of our powers to be decent

[sarisataka]

26. So a woman consents to sex

Simply by accompanying a man to his hotel room?
Damn I could have gotten laid a lot more often...

In regards to current news items, I am withholding judgment at this time

[malaise]

32. That was my assumption

Just saying

[sarisataka]

39. I guess I am more conservative

On the matter and assumed nothing whether we went to a hotel room, her place or my place
I always needed to get a "yes" to the question "are we going to..."

[MineralMan]

48. I think some people are missing a step here.

They're missing the step where you didn't go to a man's hotel room after a date unless the idea of sex with that person appealed to you. Most people are like that. They think before acting. They consider the situation before they go into that hotel room at all.

It's interesting to see people not thinking about that.

[malaise]

52. Thank you bro

It has worked for me - more than a few friends and colleagues told me stories that I never wanted to hear.

[MineralMan]

54. Absolutely. I've had friends and colleagues tell me stories like that, too.

[sarisataka]

64. I think the OP is missing a step

That being actually consenting

Way back when I went on a date with a co-worker and at the end of the night she willingly agreed to spend the night. After arriving at my place I noticed she seemed a bit nervous so I asked if she was ok with this. She admitted she thought maybe it was not a good idea. She spent a platonic night and we remained good friends but no further romance blossomed

Had I assumed she consented by accompanying me she likely would not have objected but later had regrets for doing something she didn't really want. Perhaps I may have even been accused of assault

Accompanying someone to a location that presumably will lead to sex is not the same as consenting to sex.

It's interesting to see people not thinking about that.

[malaise]

111. I agree completely wih you on consent

The problem is how do I escape if I do not consent and the predator doesn't give a shit.

So you see I was not giving him that chance.

[onenote]

137. And what difference would it make whether the idea of sex appealed to someone?

Does that mean that they can't change their mind or call a halt to it if after they start down that path it no longer seems appealing?

[MineralMan]

138. Of course they can change their minds.

Always. Did I imply otherwise?

[onenote]

141. Sort of.

You seemed to be suggesting that a woman shouldn't accept an invitation back to a date's hotel room unless she is expecting sex.

Well, I've been on plenty of dates --whether they were dates early in what I hoped might turn into a romantic relationship or simply outings with a platonic friend. I've invited my "date" to stop in for a post-date drink or to watch some TV (and I've received the same type of invitation). I never assumed when I was on the receiving end that the invitation meant that my date wanted to have sex nor would I have wanted my date to turn down my invitation because they didn't want sex, since I had no interest in having sex with someone who doesn't want to have it -- but I might have interest in sharing time and conversation with someone of the opposite gender.

[qazplm135]

29. ok that's just stupid

nothing about going back to his hotel room meant sex was on the table. NOTHING.

I have no idea if he is telling the truth or she is, but what you just typed is some bullshit.

[malaise]

38. Well if this story is true

then someone did assume it.

[qazplm135]

40. if her story is true

he tried something she didn't want to do, that says nothing about what you typed.

Your intent is to cast aspersion on her going there, as if she's responsible for what allegedly happened, that she should have "known better."

It's old school bullshit.

[malaise]

56. I'm not casting any aspersions

I simply stated that I wasn't doing into his room even if we were on a date unless I was interested in sex. Lots of men are scum.

[EllieBC]

33. Mike Pence approves of this message.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

34. This is just fucking gross. WTF?!! nt

[LexVegas]

36. Wow.

[johnp3907]

69. Lots of "wow" posts lately.

Many from longtime posters who I thought knew better. It’s disheartening.

[Codeine]

134. This whole place got sort of "wow" all of a sudden.

Enough to make your head spin.

[LanternWaste]

41. Would that our own anecdotal experiences be a projection of the world as a whole.

But they ain't. And that ain't controversial.



Just Saying, Part III: the Fallacy Strikes Back

[AkFemDem]

42. Interesting. I was raped in a hotel room.

I was under age and a work “friend” who was 8 years older invited me to his room to drink beer and watch a movie.

You understand that every day you were not raped in your life, isn’t proof that some other woman wasn’t raped right? I mean making it through a dark parking lot doesn’t mean every woman does. Never passing out at a party and waking up to some sleezeball over you doesn’t mean that hasn’t been some other woman’s reality. Just because you never went to a fondue restaurant with a left handed man who later groped you, doesn’t mean no other woman has. Your lack of traumatic experience doesn’t in some way prove other women haven’t experienced traumatic experiences.

[Ms. Toad]

43. They were not on a date.

We commiserated about our long work hours, and on the afternoon of the third day of the Convention, July 28, 2004, Mr. Fairfax suggested that I get some fresh air by accompanying him on a quick errand to retrieve documents from his room in a nearby hotel.

[malaise]

55. Well Mr Fairfax would have retrieved the documents without me being in the room

because even if we we were on a date I was not going into his room unless sex was on my mind.

[Ms. Toad]

68. But the premise in you OP was a strawman -

since it had nothing to do with the situation, but lets you paint the incident as her fault based on a false premise.

[malaise]

71. I am not blaming her

If it happened he is the scumbag predator. I am simply saying I was not going into his room even if it was a date

[Ms. Toad]

75. Sure seems as if you are.

I've been aorund enough women in the immediate aftermath of rape to know what the female doctor means when she says, I would never have done {insert whatever the rape survivor did that the doctor would never have done} Because distancing herself from the raw pain of the rape survivor by blaming the survivor is how she sleeps at night - it could never happen to me because I would never be so stupid.

[pnwmom]

132. When I was in my 20's I went into a hotel room with my employer

to prepare for a meeting. That's all we did -- prepare for the meeting in a private place.

[moriah]

51. I have walked into the hotel room of a colleague without intending for sex to happen.

Many, many times.

Have also helped a drunken colleague up the stairs to his room, poured him a glass of water and sat it beside his bed, then left, after using our "day of rest" in that stop to go bar-hopping.

Once, the per diem was so low that for three weeks I had to SHARE a room with a guy or dip into my own pay to take care of expenses, before my pay was even going to be in the bank.

It's what happens when you work on the road and are the only woman on many projects.

[malaise]

63. But note that I said on a date

I loved your other post on being the only woman on many projects. It is important in this discussion.
What if it's not a date and you have no choice.

[moriah]

70. Well, it wasn't a date, from what either of them say.

I thought the story was that he was going to "pick some papers up" as the excuse to go to the room. They were at the DNC, they hadn't met on an online dating service or something.

And yes, I've had a colleague need to grab paperwork from their room, many times. Or a way too long list of other things people can forget.

I've never had one try to kiss me once they got me in there. Fortunately for me.

[Jarqui]

53. To me, "no means no". It doesn't matter where it gets said or when it gets said. nt

[malaise]

65. If no meant no so many of us would not

be raped.

[moriah]

72. I'm sorry, I don't know if I understand what you are saying here.

Before I go off on a wild triggered misinterpretation of what you just said, could you clarify what you mean?

Thank you.

[malaise]

74. All I am saying is there are more than a few men

who don't take no for an answer.
It is changing now that women are going public and calling names.

[moriah]

76. Okay, thank the FSM.

Glad I gave you the courtesy of asking first.

[raccoon]

83. Thank you. Nt

[Fresh_Start]

66. what if it wasn't a date

because this wasn't a date

[obamanut2012]

67. Just stop

[bullwinkle428]

73. I'm sorry, malaise - this sounds like the Mike Tyson defense that was used

in his rape accusation against Desiree Washington. If you want to add another layer that, Chump actually spoke out and blamed Ms. Washington...

[oasis]

77. FWIW, malaise, you have my support for having the courage to "go there"

on this sensitive issue.

[malaise]

79. Thanks

[Fresh_Start]

78. I traveled a lot for business more than half of the time with male colleagues

it was common after dinner to go to a colleagues room to review materials for the next days meetings or recap issues/concerns about what we saw during the day.

Dinner usually included at least wine... but perhaps also drinks. Because we were meeting in that location with people from a different company, we could not discuss during dinner so basically it was nighttime or early morning...

Working, not sex, was what was in the plan.

[Devil Child]

80. Nice way to say "asking for it"

Just saying

[Whiskeytide]

81. It's simply not that simple. A sexual encounter ...

... between adults in a hotel room - and specifically the lead up to such an encounter - isn't governed by clear rules or even vague guidelines. It is always specific to the people involved and the circumstances at hand.

There has ALWAYS been some interaction between the individuals before the arrival at the hotel room. ALWAYS. No one follows someone to their hotel room without some conversation and interaction, right? Someone says something about going to the room for some reason.

Given that, what you have posted suggests that you would be ok with a man making the assumption that a woman being in his hotel room - and that alone - means consent ... because you would never accompany a man to his room unless you were there for sex. I understand the distinction you're making - that you wouldn't go to the room for non-sexual reasons in the first place. Fair enough. And I also note that you qualified your statement with the circumstances of a "date". That's fair too. But you can't assume all women have such a rule. And just because a predator couldn't lure YOU to his room on false pretenses doesn't mean another woman wouldn't trust him and become his victim.

[malaise]

86. I can't argue with anything you have said

I don't trust people I don't know well. My only hope is that men will become afraid of losing everything and abandon their predatory behavior.

[Whiskeytide]

122. I get that. But it would be better if we ...

... learned and gained understanding about how our behavior is inappropriate and became better people in the process.

I was there. Kind of an ass in my youth at times. Nothing that might prevent me from running for office thankfully, but stuff I regret now about how I treated some women with disrespect. But I had to self reflect, make some amends, and grow up - with the help of an amazing woman who for some reason agreed to marry me - to do it.

I’m not sure fear would have done that. It might change behavior, but probably not attitudes.

[malaise]

123. Great post

but that would require major attitude changes in all our societies.

Hug that woman

[Mike Nelson]

85. I think...

… going to a hotel room, if the person is staying there, does not mean sex is definite. I know some potential partners expect it, but I like to think it's optional. However, if a couple gets a hotel room, I think some sort of sex activity is expected. Also, people should be able to back out...

[malaise]

91. I agree

but since my head always told me that I could not be sure they would back out, I was not taking that chance. Clearly I am not blaming anyone for being trusting but this coward was not going into that room.

[AncientGeezer]

87. Damn.....that was hard to read. I'll let my sisters know...

going to a room will end up being a sexual encounter because they were "on a date"....

[ismnotwasm]

88. Never went up for a few drinks to get a better idea of want you want?

Perhaps with an out of town person using the hotel as home?

Huh. I have.

[malaise]

93. Nope

Back in the early 70s I went on a date with a guy who was a friend of a friend - I was staying at the hotel. He met me in the lobby - we went to Central Park rented bikes and had a great day and I said goodbye in the lobby. We must have been out four or five times and I always said goodbye in the lobby. We kept in touch and started a relationship in Boston about a year later.

[ismnotwasm]

108. On the other hand, I was nearly raped

Getting in the car with a stranger to smoke a joint. He broke my nose and I got away by gripping the car wheel and heading it into a tree. He slammed the brakes on and I started screaming. He tried shoving his fingers down my throat to shut me up and I fought him over to the car locks on his side.

He finally let me go beaten and bloody. He seemed like such a nice guy.

[malaise]

109. Kudos for fighting back

Still you raise a good point - we can be raped anywhere.

Part of the problem is that so many predators seem like nice guys

[DoctorJoJo]

92. Seems To Me the Most Emphatic Way to Have Said No Would Have Been With Her Teeth!!

[AncientGeezer]

104. Really....using violence to stop violence...that's you go to?

Should she have had a mouth full of pervert blood? Not to mention half her attackers junk....

You didn't this out well did you?

[DoctorJoJo]

119. Or Slugged Him In the Nuts--Your Choice. WTF Would YOU Have Done??

[AncientGeezer]

124. I'd have shot him, I have a CCP valid in Ma.....women in general...don't have that option.

They are regularly victimized by more powerful assholes.
I'm glad you asked though....shows your thinking on this.

[srobertss]

94. Just this morning I was recalling a time when

I went to a professors house at his invitation because I thought it would be rude to refuse. I had no interest in him romantically and after he signaled his intention I quickly left. I can’t believe how clueless I was. There was never any hint of my grade being affected. I just thought I had to be nice. This was a long time ago, in the 70’s.

[malaise]

98. I had one who buzzed around until one day I asked him if

I agreed would it it OK for me to tell his wife. He never approached me again

[DirtEdonE]

96. Thank YOU!

I have never gone on a date with a woman and ended up in a hotel room without both of us knowing we were there for sex.

Sex is good. Making it bad is a peculiarly American thing, I've found. This country is f'ed in the head in so many ways. People are so brainwashed they can be led around by the nose without even knowing they have a nose ring.

[moriah]

103. Do you consider a business convention to be a date?

As many others have pointed out, yes, many people like to bang. At business conventions, at gaming conventions, etc. Even people they just met.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

However, there IS a big difference between what the two threads here have said -- a date, where two people went out specifically with the intent of getting to know each other better for the purposes of romantic interest -- and a convention of any sort, but particularly one with a job to do as the focus more than *just* having fun.

While some mix business with pleasure, others have a policy of not doing so.

Therefore, I do see the DNC as a very different environment from a date, let alone as the other thread suggested, a date arranged on OKCupid with a total stranger but where there are stated romantic expectations for being together.

Even then, not everyone who accepts an offer for a "nightcap" after a date is wanting to do more than kiss. Sex is great! So is anticipation. Different strokes for different folks.

[DirtEdonE]

106. I've been to business conventions

Where I've been invited up to "associates" rooms. I always politely declined. I'm one of those who never believed in mixing business with pleasure. Outside the workplace the standards were different.

All of this is of course important but it's taking us away from what should be our prime goal; WIN FIRST then clean house.

Or we're going to be ratfcked into history.

[malaise]

114. No puritan here

It's not part of our culture

[m-lekktor]

99. ugh. victim blaming at it's finest right here.

smh

[58Sunliner]

102. Really? What are you really just saying? I bet you won't really say.

This is nothing more than a blame the victim thread. A hotel room has more than a bed, many have a lounge area, tv, drink cart etc.. Times have changed, we don't get to assume anymore, it requires consent, technically it always has. Only perps and victims look at boundaries this way.

I can't believe you posted this crap.

[wiggs]

105. Kudos to Malaise for putting a thought out there and sticking around to discuss, debate. nt

[LakeArenal]

107. Like the comment.... wait for papers I'm the lobby

Have the confab inthe lobby
There is always two sides and automatically judging in the first 24 hours is what’s crazy.

Now we see Republican rat finking working.

I will say for my own self, if I was accosted
in a hotel room, he or she would have to choke me silent cause I’d be screaming at the top of my lungs and throwing furniture at the windows.
I also carry mace in my pocket. Anda good swift kick in the nuts .

Yes I realize I could be over powered. But once released, screaming to high heaven.

I have traveled, conventioned, worked in man dominated jobs.

[malaise]

121. Back in 1974, I had two friends (sisters) thrown out of a hotel window

in New York. One had just broken off her engagement to the man who killed them. He then killed himself by jumping on a subway track.

For some reason no one hears what's going on in hotels. This was no cheap hotel either.

[LakeArenal]

129. Still and all, if I got out I never would remain silent.

Not for any job.

I punched my boss once when he pinched my butt. He said, Guess I won’t do that again.

I guess what I’m saying, don’t go to a hotel room at a convention or anytime there might be mixed or conveniently misunderstood signals. I think it’s common sense. Just like don’t lend money to a coworker.

[malaise]

130. Same here

I come from the school of you can't be too careful.

[GulfCoast66]

110. Geez. Back in the mid 80's when in college, at Fraternity shindigs,

I sometimes had girls go back to the hotel room with me with both of us drunk. And I was assuming it was for sex.

But on 2 occasions, somewhere between entering the room, the shower and the bed the young lady had a change of heart. I specifically remember how scared one of those girls seemed and in my youth did not understand. On both occasions we just slept in the bed. Nothing else.

Even as a drunk, horny, young white male I knew when the girl said no, it meant no. An hell, I was a conservative republican back in those days.

[malaise]

112. You are one of the men we love

but what happens when it's a predator?

[GulfCoast66]

113. The women gets raped. No fault of hers.

I still think there lots more men like me than the opposite. Maybe I am naive. And maybe I have just never allowed myself to befriend men who see women as objects.

[smirkymonkey]

145. I was very naive back in college and in my early 20's and would often go back to a guy's dorm

room or apartment with him. Almost all the time we would make out and get into some heavy petting, but I would stop it at that and all of them respected my wishes and we would just sleep together or talk. Usually we were both pretty tipsy. (this was in the mid-late 80's - early 90's).

Yes, I was pretty stupid, but also pretty lucky. I guess that I always expected that my wishes would be respected and had no idea that date rape was a common thing. I would never do such a thing today (or haven't in the past 25 years), but I am now grateful for men like you and the men I encountered who respected my right to say no.

[hughee99]

115. I have never assumed that if I could get a person into my room

Under the pretense of work (or for any other reason), that it constituted consent.

[JuJuYoshida]

126. I've never been on a date with a man, period

[pbmus]

128. I will never understand sex without consent...

[AncientGeezer]

135. Really(what he Hell)....I don't get the OP. Walk through a hotel door and

it's hittin' that ass time.
Wow

[onenote]

139. The problem I have with the OP is that it reflects a mindset that has kept women down for ages

If a man can accompany a male colleague to a hotel room to pick up documents, have a cocktail, watch some football, without expecting sex, why should a female colleague not be able to do exactly the same thing?

I have lunch with male colleagues and female colleagues. I sometimes have a drink after work with a male colleague or a female colleague. When someone accepts my invitation to join me for a meal or a drink, there are no strings, no expectations. It's a professional/social occasion.

Have professional relationships sometimes developed into something else? Sure. But that doesn't mean that any of the previous social encounters with that person were sending a message or that any subsequent encounters came with any expectation.

[malaise]

142. You are talking philosophy - how it ought to be - what we'd like it to be

I am talking political science - how it was/is.

[onenote]

153. It sounds like you are accepting (and implicitly defending) the perpetuation of a way of thinking

that we should be fighting against.

Let me try again: In my professional career I have been called upon to act as a mentor to young professionals, some male, some female. I prefer not to limit my mentoring to an occasional lunch where we get caught up on how work is going. Rather, I want to get to know my mentees so that I have the motivation to help them succeed not just in their career, but in life. If they want to share personal matters, they should feel free to do so (or not). If I learn that a mentee, male or female, likes basketball, I will invite them to attend a game with me. If (and this actually happened) a mentee mentions that they like karaoke -- something I've never experienced -- I'll say that I'd enjoy checking it out with them some time. And after one of these outings, if I suggest that they stop by and shoot some pool, I want them to feel comfortable doing so. And it shouldn't be an offer that is only made to males.

I get that a female might not feel comfortable accepting such an offer -- but I think that is tragic. Even more tragic is the person who would feel comfortable accepting such an offer but turns it down out of fear about what other people might think.

Now, I suppose some might say that I should simply stop making such offers. Well, I was mentored in a similar way by someone who invited me to attend sports events with them and to stop by post game for drink and there is no question that the doors he opened for me as a young professional were invaluable. It would be awful if those doors were closed.

[malaise]

155. I too think it is tragic

and I totally agree with the philosophy that it must change.

I totally respect what you are doing and consider you lucky to have had such a great mentor.

As we have seen on this thread, there are lots of good men out there but I could tell lots of stories about the predators. I was an adventurous young woman but no one would have called me brave. .

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

140. I always thought "no" meant no... no matter what.

[ecstatic]

143. I agree with you, but it might take others longer to learn

that lesson. And even then, we still make mistakes.

Still, I agree with you about hotel rooms or any room. Not just as a precaution to prevent rape, but also ill advised consensual sex.

[IluvPitties]

144. As a man, I have always my female companions dictate where things go...

...and things have usually gone... well, where I hoped they would go, without incident!

[GulfCoast66]

146. I replied earlier with an anecdote about my college years.

But since then this subject is not leaving my mind and it reminded me of something that often happened in my early years with my wife. We have been together over 30 years now.

This is way more personal than I normally post, but we just had a great meal with a bottle of wine, so here goes...

I’m hoping other men on DU can relate. But for the first several years of our relationship after a nice night out or some other ‘couple thing’ one thing would lead to another and well, whatever. But since I loved her for her person, not her body(which was and still is hot!) I got the sense she was really not into it. You know what I mean. Like going thru the motions. And I would stop things. At first she was concerned but soon learned I did not want her just to satisfy my needs. Because of that and many, many other things our relationship, in all aspects has blossomed. Mostly because she is a strong woman who will kick my ass if I get out of line!(rhetorically speaking of course). But that taught me that even strong women can feel pressure from men. Especially when young.

I bring this up because I have come to realize rape in marriage is as common if not more so than date rape.

I hope this was not too personal but I have heard too many men how they expect sex at demand once married.

[malaise]

147. Your wife is a lucky woman

[GulfCoast66]

148. Not sure she would agree!!

Have a nice evening.

[vercetti2021]

149. Learned the hard way

Last summer my best friend and I stayed in a hotel together when we were on vacation. I made the mistake of trying to give her a hug while she was lying in bed. That almost ended our friendship because of that. Not worth any risk...trust me even when your intentions were good.

[greatauntoftriplets]

151. I have, more than once.

But I was perfectly fine with the outcome.

[malaise]

156. Hehehehhee

Join the line

[stonecutter357]

152. K&R

[Dorian Gray]

157. And yet

if you changed your mind, you shouldn't have been raped.

[malaise]

158. I totally agree with you