Was similar doubt cast upon the accusers of Harvey Weinstein when they first came forward?

[LexVegas]

[UniteFightBack]

1. Wasn't there a recording or something? nt

[doompatrol39]

2. Here on DU? No.

Or if there was it was barely noticeable. Over the past few years the only women whose claims have drawn scrutiny were Franken's accuser and now Fairfax's. Funny how that is.

[lunatica]

3. Harvey Weinstein isn't a beloved figure on DU

Never was. What’s your point?

But there was plenty of debate over Bill Cosby and other figures who people loved.

[LexVegas]

4. So the victims dont mean shit. Just how well liked the motherfuckers are that rape them?

Got it.

[lunatica]

7. Get a grip

One has to get to the point of believing the victims first.

Both Weinstein and Cosby lost their fans when that happened.

[Ms. Toad]

10. In other words - all that matters is the man.

We automatically believe Dr. Blasey Ford and Trump's accusers - because Kavanaugh and Trump are Republican pigs
Until there were tons of women coming forward we believed Weinstein and Cosby because we like them.
We're still trashing (and lying about the number {about twice as many as are typically cited} an non-anonymous nature {more than half were named accusers} of many of) Franken's accusers because we like him
Now, with Fairfax, we're trashing Tyson because we like Fairfax - and the trashing is lightening only slightly now that there was a second accuser.

If you don't see a pattern, you're not paying attention.

[lunatica]

11. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Ms. Toad]

39. I'm afraid I can't help you then.

That's about as simple as I can make it - how DU views the veracity of the woman depends almost entirely on the identity of hte rapist/abuser.

[lunatica]

45. Help me what?

Unfortunately it seems you’re jumping to some stupid conclusion that I’m defending the male point of view. No matter how simple you think you’re making it you’re still accusing me in ignorance of anything factual.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. There is a standard of proof for those we like and another standard of proof for those we dislike.

I engage in it too but I have the self awareness for hating myself for engaging in it.

[standingtall]

6. I think the point being made is sense there are sexual predators

than anyone accused of being a sexual predator must be one. Completely circular reasoning.

[lunatica]

8. Yeah, fuck evidence, or the lack thereof.

[Bradshaw3]

12. No that's not the point at all

The point is that there is complete hypocrisy on this issue from many on this forum. If the accuers in the Fairfax case were making these accusations against a white repub every person here trying to rationalize this away would all be supporting the accusers.

[standingtall]

13. Every case is different

Fairfax isn't on tape boasting of grabbing women by the you know. Unlike Blasey-Ford neither of Fairfax's accusers have welcomed an investigation.

[Demsrule86]

15. That is a great point.

[Bradshaw3]

17. All of this is parsing with thinly veiled attacks

From the "suppressed memory" talk by those who have no understanding of it to "why did she go to the room with him" to "why didn't she file charges" and on and on. People are just looking for ways (including saying "the accusers don't welcome and investigation" - you don't know that, they could in the future) to impune women they would otherwise believe. That is the point.

[standingtall]

19. The accusers are the ones that implied they dont want an investigation

I didn't just make that up. I don't just blindly believe rape allegations without evidence. Rape allegations are not generalities and shouldn't be treated as such. There specific cases with specific circumstances which need to be examined.

[Bradshaw3]

24. This charge is wrong too

Both of them say they welcome an investigation and are willing to testify:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/justin-fairfax-impeachment-hearing_us_5c5ffd28e4b0f9e1b17e10f5

So is there another charge against them you are going to make? Did you believe tRump's accusers, most of whom had no evidence? How about Cosby's before he was convicted? Weinstein's accusers, did you not believe them? Or Kavanaugh's accusers? Did you "blindly" accept their allegations, or give all of those men the benefit of the doubt?

[Empowerer]

25. If they welcome an investigation, why don't they ask law enforcement to conduct one

instead of leaving it up to politicians to conduct the investigation as part of an impeachment proceeding?

[Bradshaw3]

34. So now you are attacking them for the "wrong" kind of investigation?

Your posts are a prime example of the wrong kind of response to sexual assault allegations. Blame the accusers for "not reporting at the time", questioning their motives (like a liberal Democrat is part of some nefarious RW plot), why don't they do "this", and when they do "this", it becomes well why didn't they do "that"?, etc. There is nothing they can do in your mind other than to retract and say it is all a lie. I haven't seen ONE good reason why not one but TWO women have come forward with this, risking all kinds of abuse.

I've asked before and no one has the honesty to answer:
Would you be using these Kavanaugh-defender type tactics if the accusers were making accusations against a white repub? I know the answer, but want to find one who will admit the truth.

[Empowerer]

38. Oh, please. I'm not attacking anyone

I have NEVER blamed an accuser for "not reporting it at the time." But I'm also not going to just assume that every accuser must be telling the truth based solely on the fact that they made an accusation. Nor will I treat a woman who has demonstrated enough courage and strength to make her voice heard to millions of people as if she's a pathetic little snowflake who can't withstand the scrutiny of millions of people across the country, but must instead be protected from the criminal justice system which is in place to help her seek justice.

[Bradshaw3]

40. Except every time it's all on the accuser

To "prove" their claim, as if it's a criminal investigation. And when another accuser comes forward, let's question them too. You certainly have an agenda in defending Fairfax and questioning his accusers.

[Empowerer]

44. "Except every time it's all on the accuser To "prove" their claim"

Umm. Yeah, that's how it works.

[Bradshaw3]

49. Umm, yeah in a trial

This isn't a trial. It's about whether a politician should remain in office. I would hope you would know that. Maybe not.

Nice emoji though. Always the last refuge.

[vdogg]

47. Umm, welcome to the American justice system.

You seriously have a problem with an accuser needing to provide proof of their claim? Ffs... Thought patterns like this is how we end up with innocent people in jail for decades on end.

[Bradshaw3]

48. Umm, it's not about the American justice system

It's about whether an elected official should remain in office. Two completely different things. And I never wrote that accusers shouldn't provide proof. But again, it is not about a trial, at this point anyway. A politician leaving office is not the same as innocent people being put in jail. I would hope you know that.

[vdogg]

52. No, I'm sorry. I call bs.

No one should lose their livelihood over an unfounded accusation, period. You shouldn't be able to ruin someone's life simply by claiming assault. There has to be an investigation. There has to be proof. I don't care if you're Dem, Rep, black, white, etc. The same standard should apply to everyone and the burden should be high. Even in the business world, claims of assault/harassment are investigated before action is taken. What you're advocating is that someone should first suffer consequences before any investigation is conducted. That is a dangerous precedent to set, and something with which I vehemently disagree.

[standingtall]

28. This only comes after Fairfax requested an investigation

But good let there be an investigation like many of us have been saying there should be from the start.. As far as Bill Cosby goes. I never like him no way even when he was popular he looked liked a fraud to me and I didn't even know who Harvey Weinstein was until the sex assault accusations against him were reported.

[Bradshaw3]

30. Maybe it was their first chance to agree to it

Seems like whatever they do you are going to find a reason to question it. As far as the others accused, you obviously knew about the cases. My question was whether you believed the accusers in those cases. You dodged the question.

[standingtall]

32. I dont know the name of any of Cosby or Weinstein's accussers

I don't following either of them. Cosby was convicted in a court of law so yeah I believe his accusers.

[Bradshaw3]

36. I would respectfully suggest finding out more

on the subject and the metoo movement in general. No one is in favor of convicting someone of crimes they didn't commit, but being a government official is not a right. There are standards we should hold all of them to, repub and Democrat.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. My favorite Weinstein story

I was listening to Gwyneth Paltrow being interviewed by Howard Stern. Weinstein had harassed Paltrow and she told told her then boyfriend Brad Pitt about it. Pitt told Weinstein that if he ever made Gwyneth feel uncomfortable again he would "f--king kill him."

[Bradshaw3]

37. I wish something had been done about him long before

If you read the accounts of women like Sciorra and Hannah, you understand how many lives he almost ruined. I hope he goes to jail for a long time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. I read what that monster did to Salma Hayek

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/13/opinion/contributors/salma-hayek-harvey-weinstein.html

[dawg day]

27. Why keep looking for ways that might mean they shouldn't be heard?

They have both come forward, told their stories, told their names.

They might not have "called for an investigation", whatever that means, but they have provided the information that can be heard and looked into.

This is a huge disruption of their lives. It will impact their family, their work, their futures.
The lt. governor can respond. He can ignore it, he can defend himself, he can resign, he can do all sorts of things now.

[vdogg]

53. I love how nonchalantly you treat this accusation with regards to the accused

As though it's not devastating to their life, job, family, etc... It's telling really. People are right to question the timing and the source. There is doubt, so people question. This is why an investigation is important and must be conducted before any consequences are suffered, professional or otherwise. We're getting into ugly territory here, where mere accusation means guilt.

[Demsrule86]

16. No, I would not. Everyone has the right to an investigation. I have no idea if Fairfax is guilty or

innocent...but he and everyone deserves an investigation...and accusation of rape should not be the be all end all of a man's life.

[Bradshaw3]

18. Unfortunately it's more than callling for an investigation

A lot of the comments have degenerated into thinly veiled attacks or at least questioning of the women, to some calling it an outright conspiracy against Fairfax. I thought when the second accuser came out some on here would stop, but they have only doubled down - now it's all about an "investigation" -- what that entails nobody can say.

Fine do an investigation of some sort but if it involves the kind of attacks on the accusers I've seen here then it is no better than what the repubs did for Kavanaugh. First people here said the first accuser didn't have corroboration such as telling people at the time. The second one did do that but that is being dismissed. That kind of knee jerk thinking and the conspiracy stuff is getting into RWNJ territory and would not be happening - as I wrote - if the accusations were being made against a white repub.

[Demsrule86]

21. No one knows the truth. And I see no reason to attack anyone...if it can be proven to be true then

Fairfax will resign or not...can't force him unless he is indicted...if it can't be proven then why do we brand Fairfax a rapist un an unsubstantiated accusation. I don't want a man's life ruined because of an accusation. I have men in my life that I love ...I don't ever want them to face an accusation from a woman who could be lying. We don't know who is telling the truth at this point. And it sure smells like dirty GOP tricks...and attempt to steal the governor's seat.

[Bradshaw3]

23. It is not one woman but two credible women

One of whom is a liberal Democrat. Is she part of some nefarious plot? Bought off? Did the charges against Kavanaugh have to be "proven"? Did you post those same concerns when Ford and others were making their accusations?

[Demsrule86]

54. An accusation is not sufficiennt. An investigation must be done and if nothing can be proven than

Fairfax keeps his job. I will not endorse the me too movement anymore if an accusation is all it takes...unfair and wrong. Credible people lie everyday...not saying this is the case. We don't know and may never know.

[lunatica]

46. Well that's a blatant generalization if ever there was one!

Last edited Sun Feb 10, 2019, 06:03 PM - Edit history (1)

[Bradshaw3]

50. Not at all

I said many because there have been many using Kavanaugh-like tactics to try and question the accusers.

[gratuitous]

5. A lot of folks defended Weinstein, just like a lot of folks defended Cosby

But as the accusations pile up, and the evidence grows, a lot of that defense fades. There are a lot of dynamics in play: Powerful men make and break the careers of others, so they gather a lot of supporters and defenders from those they've helped through the years. Powerful men also cultivate a good relationship with the public relations and media reporters to advance themselves, so they have a built-in group of defenders in key public outlets. This leads to the "He's such a great guy, I can't believe this of him" stage when the powerful man's pals use their platforms to defend the swell guy they know.

[Empowerer]

26. I haven't seen anyone defend Fairfax against the charges themselves

I do see a lot of people, including myself, defending him from being presumed guilty based on an accusation and calling for a real investigation before running him out office.

That is a very different thing.

[OnDoutside]

9. Weinstein was exposed as a result of proper investigative journalism and then

Federal investigators. There's a bit of a difference,to be fair. Let the authorities investigate whether there is at least prima facie evidence here.

[Demsrule86]

14. It doesn't matter...I don't rememeber really. And accusation is just that one person says it...maybe

true and maybe not...the Weinstein thing is going to trial. There will be evidence and guilt will be decided...forcing a person to resign when the maybe victim won't even address the accusation...wants to get back to her life and all is wrong period.

[JustAnotherGen]

22. I hang out other places than DU

At that place we had been waiting a year - and were not shocked by Spacey or Singer or Moonves - none of them.

Actually kind of irritated that it took that long. Harvey Scissorhands shit has been well known for years. In other places - folks were making lists - women who went through Weinstein Hell and women who stayed nothing happened - but had interesting careers.

I don't think it's the same.

[lancelyons]

29. If I remember Weinstein accusers didn't surface from a right wing media outlet

[Squinch]

33. In real life? Harvey Weinstein was raping women for a generation. Those who spoke were

disbelieved or slapped down or ostracized.

[maxrandb]

41. There were more than just accusations against Weinstein

I also believe that either New York or CA have opened criminal investigations.

I also believe that Weinstein didn't deny the claims, or gave up denying when text messages and emails came out.

A lot of people have also tried to use the Cosby case, but I believe he was convicted by a jury.

Another huge difference is that neither Weinstein nor Cosby had 1.5 million voters elect them as their States leaders.

[ismnotwasm]

42. People still don't believe in rape culture

Or that inequality against women is a significant problem. Or rape stats.

It isn’t a problem limited to DU, but our entire culture.

[wasupaloopa]

51. There still needs to be an investigation

[LanternWaste]

55. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to see so many people...

...avoiding a flawed premise that a forced analogy stands on its own, and that critics may perceive contrast as well as comparisons, rather than simply focusing entirely on the latter.