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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJust asking ... this summer was supposed to be a big summer for OWS. Is that totally gone now? n/t
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CabCurious
(954 posts)Once it stopped being focused sharply on Wall Street and the finance sector, it was just noise.
It's very hard to sustain a movement that doesn't have a clear message.
longship
(40,416 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 23, 2012, 01:52 AM - Edit history (1)
Save the whales.
Save the planet.
Be a vegan.
Stop nuclear power.
Blah, blah, blah.
Plus, there was this camping out thing. Anybody with half a brain could have predicted that the city health department would shut it down. They should have gone home every evening, or to the youth hostels, or to friends' houses, or to a hotel. And returned the next morning. INet networking could have worked it out. But this insane commune camping in the city parks deal would surely bring out the gendarmes against them eventually.
The occupy organizers were anything but.
It is a shame. They never had focus. And that's why they failed. They made it a camping trip. That's why they failed.
Occupy. The most disorganized and counter-productive protest in history. They not only didn't help; they hurt their own professed goals.
I won't say what I really think about Occupy. It's sufficient that their harm is at an end.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)"Save the whales.
Save the planet.
Be a vegan.
Stop nuclear power.
Blah, blah, blah.
Plus, there was this camping out thing. Anybody with half a brain could have predicted that the city health department would shut it down. They should have gone home every evening, or to the youth hostiles, or to friends' houses, or to a hotel. And returned the next morning. INet networking could have worked it out. But this insane commune camping in the city parks deal would surely bring out the gendarmes against them eventually.
The occupy organizers were anything but.
It is a shame. They never had focus. And that's why they failed. They made it a camping trip. That's why they failed.
Occupy. The most disorganized and counter-productive protest in history. They not only didn't help; they hurt their own professed goals.
I won't say what I really think about Occupy. It's sufficient that their harm is at an end."
Their harm is at an end?
CabCurious
(954 posts)The household talking point about the 1% and the way the GOP primaries unfolded were greatly determined by the OWS movement, almost in spite of themselves.
The national media did a better job with the message than OWS did.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)You really really hate to give them the credit they deserve. They put their asses on the line for this country and you just sit here and whine about them.
You have no fucking clue what they were up against.
You have no fucking clue. Period.
CabCurious
(954 posts)And thus I applaud them. I don't think OWS failed.
I just wish they had stayed focus on the ORIGINAL message rather than becoming a cacophony of gripes.
juxtaposed
(2,778 posts)I'm going to copy and paste what you stated above at a few occupy sites only b/c I find it?? as I said earlier I'm lost for words.
I may get back to you soon, but if not I'm sorry b/c we are real busy fight a whole lot of battles while you post crap you really have no clue about!
longship
(40,416 posts)All I saw was a rabble with a myriad of different agendas, almost none of which were Wall Street. Maybe this was the major media's doing. And shame on them for it.
But OWS has accomplished nothing about bringing the Wall Street issue to the forefront. I don't care how dedicated you were. Your message never reached out.
All the MSM talked about was the lack of message and the lack of facilities.
I know it meant well, but from my perspective, the people outside the OWS movement never saw it.
What I posted is precisely what most people saw because that is what was reported. I watched it closely and I was disgusted by the stupid reporting.
But it also showed a huge mistake by the organizers. The camping out deal was doomed. Anybody who knows about the Bonus Army should know that. Fail!
Lack of focus on the target. OWS aimed at too damned many targets. If it was about Wall Street, didnt anybody talk to people with the environment signs, the women's rights signs, the myriad of other liberal agenda signs? You called it Occupy Wall Street but it came off as a rabble of discontents. That was how it was reported, when it was reported at all.
Don't get me wrong, I support the cause. But I cannot support how OWS came off. It failed.
And the question remains. Where is OWS now? The answer is evident.
That's why I remain steadfast to the cause, but remain puzzled by the so-called Occupy Wall Street movement.
You need to stay on message.
You need to stay within regulations so a city cannot sweep you all up. Passive resistance is good. But don't piss off the health department.
The place you ought to demonstrate which would have some impact is on the Mall in DC. The investment banks likely violated no laws, no matter how unethical their actions. It is the lawmakers in Congress who are to blame. The scorpions on Wall Street are just scorpions and they do what they can do. It's Congress which regulates the scorpions.
You missed your target by a few hundred miles.
But after OWS, I would not recommend that you reuse that moniker.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Your post #40 in this thread:
"I won't say what I really think about Occupy. It's sufficient that their harm is at an end."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1184074
longship
(40,416 posts)None! Zero! Nada!
Wall Fucking Street didn't do anything illegal. They followed the law and a bit loosely, the regulations.
But after TARP, if you actually followed it, there would be no accountability without changes outside of Wall Street. The fucking problem with Wall Street was that they were allowed to regulate themselves.
Not only did OWS miss their target by talking about whales, snails, and other issues, they missed the target by a few hundred miles.
Congress can regulate Wall Street and it was Congress which removed the regulations which allowed Wall Street to crash the world's economy.
Wall Street is a scorpion. If you don't rope it in, it will just be what is in a scorpion's nature. Picketing the scorpion does nothing. It'll just sting you.
OWS Fail.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)You're killin' me here!
You honestly haven't been keeping up, haven't even been reading the pro-OWS posts in this thread. Congress and the president will do =nothing= to stop Wall Street. Nothing. The reasons why should be an awakening for all concerned, for all who look to "voting" to change something which has no interest in being changed.
OWS will continue to shout about and bring pressure upon Citizens United, Wall Street, ALEC, Glass-Steagall, and other issues about which the government will do nothing.
You are aware, you criticize without offering any course of action 
longship
(40,416 posts)You, sir, are part of the problem with OWS.
You are so focussed on the apparent magic of camping out in the parks that you do not even understand the real target.
Wall Street would not have been able to crash the world's economy if it had been illegal. Wall Street was able to crash the world's economy because it was all entirely within the law.
You could have camped out on the doors of the Wall Street bankers for a hundred years and they would continue to do what they did.
The regulatory policies are not made on Wall Street. That was OWS's biggest mistake. Regulatory policies are made on Capital Hill. Although Wall Street did many immoral things this last couple of decades, they did nothing technically illegal.
That's what the entire OWS movement doesn't understand. The enemy is not fucking Wall Street. They're fucking scorpions and it is in their nature to act like scorpions. It is Congress which ropes in the fucking scorpions.
OWS completely missed the target. The banks didn't give a fuck about you. They walked past your throngs every morning and walked home past you every evening. You were transparent.
The fucking Congress is the only body in the the USA which can rope in the scorpion. They set the rules, or withdraw them. If OWS had bothered to pay attention, they would have never had wasted their time and energy on such a stupid and unproductive enterprise as picketing the bankers who never give a shit about you.
Instead, you should have spent all that wasted energy on the only place it could do any fucking good. Fucking Congress!
And, in the meantime, if you really want to make a fucking difference you will first do what you can do to get Democrats elected to Congress and Senate. Now that will do something of substantive value.
Then, once the Democrats have the White House and hopefully both the House and the Senate, we can all join you in an Occupy that has a chance to succeed, in Washington fucking DC. After all, the rules aren't made on Wall Street.
It is disgusting that so many people seem not to have the energy do not see it. They'd rather camp out on the doorstep to a bank that has no oversight.
The fucking lack of oversight is the problem, just as it was in the 1920's.
Fuck OWS. We need to Occupy DC. There will be many of us with you when you do. But we don't have a fucking lot of time now. Control the scorpion.
We need a Democratic Congress, Senate, and White House, first. Then, we still may need to occupy DC again to punctuate our message. But with a more friendly environment, we may actually get something really great done.
Let's get things on the hump. We've got some flyin' to do.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 23, 2012, 05:16 AM - Edit history (1)
I'm not going to waste my time with someone who actually believes OWS has caused harm.
longship
(40,416 posts)And a huge amount of effort was expended...
Post OWS:
Were there banking reforms? Nope.
Were there Wall Street reforms? Nope.
Was there any enforcement action? Nope.
Was any reform legislation passed in either house of congress let alone signed into law? Nope.
I will let OWS's record speak for itself.
Oh! One more...
Were any whales saved? I dunno. I am willing to think some were. Certainly, there was a bigger chance of whale saving than Wall Street reform when you protest at... Wall Street.
Somebody wasn't thinking to deeply.
Occupy DC, not the bankers at Wall Street.
Only the former has any reason to care what you think.
on edit: BTW, I very much care what you think. I also support all your goals. I just think you picked the wrong target. That is the substance of our disagreement.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)OWS had the potential to do something special and squandered it.
The joker cracking himself up responding to your posts summed it all up with his "voting" statement. That's the problem. We needed to use that momentum to take over the Democratic party, not to sit in a park banging on buckets and singing crappy folk songs.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)That is a direct target. However, you must do this alone if you believe somehow that Occupy is only about sitting in parks, banging upon buckets and singing crappy folk songs. I'm obviously doing none of that 
Find your path to victory.
FSogol
(45,487 posts)
longship
(40,416 posts)Music has always been part of political movements. This goes back to early times. My favorite is The Marriage of Figaro by Mozart, a very revolutionary piece of music. I wouldn't want protest without music. Although, I would like to hear something other than a guitar. But, I demure.
Rather, I would have preferred that OWS had been ODC. OWS missed the target. It would not have mattered if there were save the whales signs in DC. But on Wall Street they were non-sequiturs. In fact the whole OWS on the actual Wall Street was a non-sequitur. The bankers and traders didn't give a fuck. They just walked past them.
OWS was so fucking naive.
tama
(9,137 posts)Wall Street, together with MIC, owns the system that makes the laws. Especially both wings of the corporate party aka Congress.
Since 2008 it has been clear that global capitalism is in the process of collapse because of limits of growth, and all that the political system can do is apply more and more duct tape to keep banksters afloat. It's a huge castle so the collapse is taking it's time, but the process is already up to the point where IMF is devouring EU countries instead of so called 3rd world as in the good old neocolonialist days. Euro is practically a gonner, Iceland had a pots and pans revolution, threw the whole corrupt lot out and crowd sourced a new constitution, and advice EU to follow their example. People in Europe are much more ready to follow Iceland example than in US, where capitalism and consumerism have become a state religion.
Against that background OWS was awesome education process. Of anarchic practices, participatory democracy, police brutality and all that jazz. The question is how we want to live together in the post-capitalist world and how we as individuals and societies need to change if we want keep on adapting to environment. OWS was not the beginning nor end of that process, just one major step.
brooklynite
(94,579 posts)Where did those 4 votes come from? If there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans, shouldn't it have been 9-0?
tama
(9,137 posts)2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)?
Yes there are many issues. This world is fucked in more ways than one. But I don't remember a god damned thing about any whales and snails and other such bull fuckin shit.
Get your own ass out there and do something. God damned anything but sit here and bitch and moan about those who do.
You may be the best joke I have seen today.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)You can't see the connection between occupying Wall St. and environmental causes, labor issues, democracy and human rights, anti-war issues, the creeping police and survailence state, home foreclosures, private prisons, money buying our government, factory farming, economic justice......? Really you can't see that all those grievances are connected?
Occupy connected all those issues together and focused attention on the common cause. Naming and exposing the (roughly) 1% owners of capital who profit from and drive the historic process on all those issues.
Some may call it a confusing mess of sloppy signs. But I was glad to see people expressing the idea that we cannot win separately. We are much stronger when we act together.
It's not as you say "too many targets". It is understanding there is actually one single common target for all these causes. And that is to reign in the power of the 1% and advance the idea that decisions in our society should be for the good of people and not only for what makes the most profit. That's the message. Clearly elaborated from the beginning for anybody willing to listen.
longship
(40,416 posts)Not for banking. Not for the environment. Not for energy. Not for anything else that we care about.
Washington, DC makes policy, enforced by regulations and the power of law, and if need be, the courts, marshalls, etc.
Picketing bankers does nothing, especially concerning the environment, or energy, or even banking regulations.
That's the mistake that OWS made. It was a biggie.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)The banks got the government to make the policy bailing them out, and the continued policy to ignore getting those trillions of stolen dollars back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Job_%28film%29
Part II: The Bubble (2001-2007)
During the housing boom, the ratio of money borrowed by an investment bank versus the bank's own assets reached unprecedented levels. The credit default swap (CDS), was akin to an insurance policy. Speculators could buy CDSs to bet against CDOs they did not own. Numerous CDOs were backed by subprime mortgages. Goldman-Sachs sold more than $3 billion worth of CDOs in the first half of 2006. Goldman also bet against the low-value CDOs, telling investors they were high-quality. The three biggest ratings agencies contributed to the problem. AAA-rated instruments rocketed from a mere handful in 2000 to over 4,000 in 2006.
Part III: The Crisis
The market for CDOs collapsed and investment banks were left with hundreds of billions of dollars in loans, CDOs and real estate they could not unload. The Great Recession began in November 2007, and in March 2008, Bear Stearns ran out of cash. In September, the federal government took over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which had been on the brink of collapse. Two days later, Lehman Brothers collapsed. These entities all had AA or AAA ratings within days of being bailed out. Merrill Lynch, on the edge of collapse, was acquired by Bank of America. Henry Paulson and Timothy Geithner decided that Lehman must go into bankruptcy, which resulted in a collapse of the commercial paper market. On September 17, the insolvent AIG was taken over by the government. The next day, Paulson and Fed chairman Ben Bernanke asked Congress for $700 billion to bail out the banks. The global financial system became paralyzed. On October 3, 2008, President Bush signed the Troubled Asset Relief Program, but global stock markets continued to fall. Layoffs and foreclosures continued with unemployment rising to 10% in the U.S. and the European Union. By December 2008, GM and Chrysler also faced bankruptcy. Foreclosures in the U.S. reached unprecedented levels.
Part IV: Accountability
Top executives of the insolvent companies walked away with their personal fortunes intact. The executives had hand-picked their boards of directors, which handed out billions in bonuses after the government bailout. The major banks grew in power and doubled anti-reform efforts. Academic economists had for decades advocated for deregulation and helped shape U.S. policy. They still opposed reform after the 2008 crisis. Some of the consulting firms involved were the Analysis Group, Charles River Associates, Compass Lexecon, and the Law and Economics Consulting Group (LECG). Many of these economists had conflicts of interest, collecting sums as consultants to companies and other groups involved in the financial crisis.[4]
Part V: Where We Are Now
Tens of thousands of U.S. factory workers were laid off. The new Obama administration’s financial reforms have been weak, and there was no significant proposed regulation of the practices of ratings agencies, lobbyists, and executive compensation. Geithner became Treasury Secretary. Feldstein, Tyson and Summers were all top economic advisors to Obama. Bernanke was reappointed Fed Chair. European nations have imposed strict regulations on bank compensation, but the U.S. has resisted them.
http://vimeo.com/28744079
longship
(40,416 posts)The revolving door between government monetary policy makers and executives of the investment banks.
It's all well documented. My favorites are Michael Lewis' The Big Short which is a fun read, but explains the sausage machine in detail and Andrew Ross Sorkin's Too Big To Fail about the events leading up to the Lehman failure and TARP.
The latter is extremely well documented. The former is very educational about how the whole banking system created products so toxic that collapse was inevitable. As Steve Eisman said, "And this is legal?"
The answer was, and still is, "Yup!"
We're not out of the woods yet. And the problem isn't the fucking scorpions at the investment banks. It is the government regulatory agencies that allow them to continue acting like unbridled scorpions.
Occupying Wall Street does jack shit. We need to occupy DC.
is not a bad idea. The parliament has been surrounded in Greece and Spain for short periods by protestors, but only really tangible results in West are from the pots and pans revolution of Iceland.
ODC through traditional partisan politics does jack shit, or rather just more harm. What does US constitution say about the situation where people don't like or accept their government anymore?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)with those who encourage internal rebellion...
It is best to know the difference between the two documents.
Declaration
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html
Constitution
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution.html
nanabugg
(2,198 posts)corporations out of our politics and we might yet have a government of, by and for the people.
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)like fun they don't.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)because sure as hell they do... through access to political leaders in person and money.
It is a sordid affair actually.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)HCE SuiGeneris
(14,994 posts)Freudian slip, perchance?
Goodbye, credibility.
longship
(40,416 posts)I sincerely hope mine wouldn't either.
If you disagree, take on my argument, not a silly misspelling. That sounds more like a Republican tactic.
My argument is that OWS achieved not much because of their poor planning. It allowed the media to portray it as a rabble -- not too off the mark given the media coverage.
And that is what it is all fucking about.
Miss. Fail.
Regroup and take on DC. You will never change Wall Street within. You have to change Wall Street from DC.
On top of the other mistakes, you missed the target. You should have been on the Mall in DC and in the halls of Congress. They regulate Wall Street.
Major Fail.
QED
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)And both political parties take wall street and bankster donations.
Under Citizens United, wall street and banks and corporations buy the vote, directly.
You cannot have missed Citizens United, right?
longship
(40,416 posts)Maybe I ought to rephrase it in terms you can understand.
1. Wall Street cannot be trusted to regulate itself.
True or False? I will presume true here.
2. Given that Wall Street cannot be trusted to regulate itself, can you think of another entity which can regulate it?
Your response to my last post seems to be NO. Or at least that Congress does not regulate.
Well, my friend. Isn't that the fucking problem?
And since we both agree that Wall Street will never regulate themselves. And since we both agree that the fucking Congress has the power but isn't fucking doing so, isn't the fucking solution fucking obvious?
It is decidedly not to fucking camp outside the fucking banks, whose employees will blithely walk past you texting their next trades via their iPhones. It is to find the crux of the problem -- the fucking Congress -- and bring our complaint to the only place it will do any good.
OWS! Stop wasting your time at BOA headquarters. None of the people working there care, and many are just doing their jobs.
But the fucking people not doing their jobs are the idiots in Congress. It is their responsibility alone where the blame resides. And we know which party is decidedly counter to our interests.
We need not only to occupy DC, we need fucking occupy every Congressional district to bring more Democrats to the Capital in Washington. It doesn't matter if they're yellow or blue or any other color dog. If they caucus with Dems, Nancy and Harry will work on them. That's their job.
Let's get things on the hump. We've got some flyin' to do.
MADem
(135,425 posts)"We, The People." It's only when we don't give them hell that they assume they have permission to make shady deals with lobbyists and bankers and other nefarious individuals who are out to make a buck. And they also start thinking it is, indeed, "their" seat, instead of ours.
longship
(40,416 posts)Which is why I jumped into this thread in the first place.
The solution is to regulate the investment banks, which is done from Congress, not Wall Street.
MADem
(135,425 posts)They need to challenge their reps for their shoddy decisions and their mealy-mouthed pronouncements. If they aren't repping us, and we don't complain, then we get the government we deserve.
All spending legislation starts in the House and ends on the President's desk. We do have the power--it's just that instead of challenging these blowhards who are our SERVANTS, too many of us tug at our forelocks and defer to these little shits, like we are expected to serve them.
tama
(9,137 posts)from corporate media? They speak for their masters and are the class enemy as much as WS, MIC and DC.
DU discussions and whole Internet are also public media, but grass roots peer review instead of corporate interests and capitalist hierarchies that you call media. And the peer review of your contribution to this issue so far is that it's mostly miss and fail. ODC and OWS is not either or case, but complementary. Both.
longship
(40,416 posts)It would seem that OWS might have some metrics on success. A lot of effort by many people went into it. I would hope that you would see yourselves that there's not much difference.
But I can think of one. The courts seem to be on your side with regards to rights to assemble. I haven't paid much attention to this aspect but wasn't there at least a couple of cases that OWS people won when they were arrested?
As to monetary policies on Wall Street, not so much change. That is too bad. That's why I suggest that occupy goes to Washington and get in Congress's hair.
tama
(9,137 posts)and human attention span is not ideal for observing changes that take years and decades. But if you look back and try to remember how world was say 10 years ago and compare general attitude to government and readiness to big revolutionary changes then and now... ...and if we are in personal hurry, we can always find a relative safe havens, e.g. an ecovillage that suits our tastes and offers a way of future that is not at all bad. It is possible and can be exemplary, but the point is that we are all in this together, not seclusion from the rest of world into small abode of bliss...
CabCurious
(954 posts)Every household uses the 1% language.
longship
(40,416 posts)It would be great if they figuratively nailed a list of complaints on Congress's door. I would definitely support that.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)You seem to know why they failed. Or think you do. I think you are the reason they failed. Because you can only shit talk but didn't do the walk.
It's easy to sit on your ass and suppose why somebody else didn't get the job you think they should have achieved.
They did succeed. You failed.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)A lot of people look at OWS and that is why they fail.
I saw on the news last night they spray painted a building here in Tampa. Wow!!! 
CabCurious
(954 posts)OWS was successful in the sense that it permanently changed the national discourse.
Ironically, the national media did a better job with the 1% message than the OWS protesters themselves.
longship
(40,416 posts)Any failure of OWS certainly has to be attributed to the lack of media coverage. Like many here, I was horrified by the lack of news on Occupy, even when the protest was at a peak, which went on for weeks.
Maybe OWS could have handled the media better, but I confess that I don't know what they could have done to improve that. The major media outlets kinda just ignored them until the police started breaking them up. At least the courts seem to think that no laws were broken, preserving first amendment rights.
I still would like to see them do their thing in Washington where they may get better play. While they are there, they should send a respectful delegation to congressional offices with definite demands. That may get some traction, if it is done right.
Thanks for your support. Many here are assuming I am against OWS. I am not. I just think that they ought to apply pressure where it can do some good.
And I am very encouraged that they will be at both political conventions.
patrice
(47,992 posts)bourgeoisie hobby for those with ambitions of various types.
I loved being in the heart of the city! . . . not very far from where I had started my life out as an adult in my first apartment. We were in a beautiful place there and it would have been worth the trouble if it weren't for OTHER things going on.
CabCurious
(954 posts)Turning OWS into a permanent camp made it open to new problems, new harassment, etc.
You had homeless people with mental health issues, legitimate health issues, legitimate sanitation and logistics issues... and it generally helped to discredit the message and purpose as a PROTEST.
tama
(9,137 posts)but very real and very old problems. Problems you can easily forget in the safety of your home, but not when you camp in middle of the city. Problems we need to learn to take care as humans to each other each sharing responsibility, instead of expecting governments and leaders to clean away the mess they created.
And yes I do know very well that the problems often felt and feel overwhelming to to multitasking protesters. Politics can be debated on Internet ad infinitum, but people on streets are real.
CabCurious
(954 posts)But you can't expect a movement to be successful if it's trying to address ALL of these problems.
tama
(9,137 posts)A successful grass roots movement has been and in addressing all these problems in multiple ways, and it wouldn't be successful if it tried to hide from them. These problems are not isolated but interlinked with common causes. WS banksters, depression, political corruption, homeless people, etc. As said Occupy and related movements are fighting against evictions to prevent people losing their homes. Occupying buildings for homes - see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homes_Not_Jails - predates OWS, but is part of the larger Occupy-movement.
CabCurious
(954 posts)Effective social movements need a CLEAR message, especially if they are involved in the political sphere.
When that message is constantly clear, then it HELPS to clarify those interconnections. If the OWS had been extremely, extremely focused in their national messages and slogans for more than a week, then it could UPLIFT those kinds of eviction issues. It could BETTER help focus pressure on real policy and investigation into corruption.
I'm talking about things like this that became a distraction. If OWS goes back to this kind of mixed-messages and live-in politic, it's going to end up back in police standoffs and lost opportunities.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I swear, when I read shit like that, I think there is very little hope.
Just too many reptilian-brained idiots.
CabCurious
(954 posts)It continued to gain media attention even when it became just a bunch of whiners without a clear purpose or message.
Sorry.
Ironically, I'd say the mainstream media did a better message carrying the 1% topic than OWS did.
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)CabCurious
(954 posts)
While obviously the DS overstated the tensions, it does highlight the problems of OWS getting caught up in a lot of procedural nonsense as they tried to be more than JUST A PROTEST. I also think that being focused on live-in camps was misguided, although it was the least of the movement's problems.
The good news is that OWS isn't dead... and could perhaps rise up stronger and more focused this fall.
Dkc05
(375 posts)If there is no activity there then it is over. You have to hope there are some of the OWS folks who still care about the movement.
patrice
(47,992 posts)Charlotte NC the first week of September. All I ever see from the occupy on FB is how much they hate the President. They appear to have focused on two issues: 1. fighting police brutality; and 2. drones murdering innocents for American political issues, both of which issues suggest more interest in Democrats than in Republicans. Our local occupy was fractured by Libertarians and Tea Partyers posing as 3rd party advocates.
Occupy Midwest, which is regional, and includes at least some of Occupy St. Louis and Occupy Chicago, two very important factions, is in Detroit this next weekend, which makes me think at least some occupiers won't be in Tampa then the 27th.
MADem
(135,425 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)in the mix.
Some of what I, AND others, saw around our occupy was outright in your face in public Libertarian/Paulites.
There are many other details, from having been there so much, that I don't want to go into, because I want to respect people's privacy, but one good example is the several thousands of sipped-on-a-little-bit plastic bottles of water, that we people's mic'ed and people's mic'ed over and over again and yet the numbers of such bottles just left laying about never abated. Broken tent-poles pounded down into the ground as tent stakes and left sticking out several inches, all - over - the - place, with guy-ropes everywhere and the tents un-occupied as their owners went home (to Johnson County many of them) for weeks and weeks, and not even showing up for meetings, now, what kind of person has NO regard for others walking around in the dark (and some of them, homeless & street-persons, NOT in full possession of their faculties)??? Also, anything and everything in proximity of the camp and not chained down was stolen. One street fellow who was trying to make a change of it and who had the nerve to fly the American flag upside down and someones kept driving up to the camp and bitching about that flag, on at least one occasion at 3 a.m., so he finally went ahead and took it down . . . he was elsewhere for a short while, and when he came back he found that flag, and ONLY that flag, stolen from his tent, which was odd as hell, because EVERYTHING else was being stolen constantly and he had accumulated lots of pretty good donations in his tent, but only that flag was stolen. A couple of friends and I discovered one young black kid's tent smashed and ransacked and NO other tents around him touched. When I first saw it, in the middle of the night, I thought "the wind", but then we looked closer and decided that was not possible. He was completely by himself, one of the sweetest most helpful people in the whole group, another street person, and he left us not long after that.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I think a lot of positive energy was taken by the wind...or whatever, too.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)that when left groups fight each other, the end result is an enabling of the most reactionary right forces to come to power.
patrice
(47,992 posts)ann---
(1,933 posts)
amerikat
(4,909 posts)Welcome to DU.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)similar, what's the MIC. I didn't bother to answer, but since then, thinking back, I think they really did mean their question.
tama
(9,137 posts)to words otherwise familiar.
riverbendviewgal
(4,252 posts)and there was violence which turned off many . just my opinion.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)acknowledged leader of sorts. I really understand what they were trying to do with no focused leader, but at least at this stage of human development I really think that's hard. Then as you say, the violence, provocateurs or whatever, just naturally would have kept some away. And of course TPTB want it down-focused as much as possible.
patrice
(47,992 posts)They did the process thing without the spirit of authentic horizontal interaction. It takes more honesty and surrender and courage than most people are really willing to give to it.
I think OWS itself may have had a core group who really DID know what horizontal empowerment is and HOW to actually do it, but a lifetime of division and factionalism and the habits of thought and emotion acquired therefrom pretty much paralyzed quite a bit of the rest of the occupys, except for any of the smaller more homogenous groups.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)there from" is pretty tough to break IMO. ... especially under the heat of the moment to horizontally organize a group thrown together more or less acquiring more members. I've tried doing "horizontal empowerment" in a controlled corporate environment and it was darn tough.
patrice
(47,992 posts)of this in an absolute river of street-people and homeless with every problem imaginable, which we wanted to respond to appropriately, but really DIDN'T have the expertise and wherewithal to do that sort of thing and, yet, they kept coming and coming. Some people said that they had seen people even bring homeless and drop them off for us to take care of. And then there was the street culture, which was a whole other bag of tricks.
We worked at it for 7 months, actually put on some very good marches, several of them, street theater, free concert, and stuff, but the situational factors, plus the division and factionalism within the group really did prevent solidarity and people even bitched a lot about anyone who demonstrated initiative, i.e. the ones who did the work of making things happen became continuous targets (some pretty serious stuff actually happened), but then the ones doing the complaining never just went ahead and put anything together themselves.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)Koch HQ in Wichita. Small mouthy counter-protest present, plus 3-4 other occupies, some of it kind of anarchic stuff. Sierra Club with us worrying about broken windows or something.
The Tulsa group did a great job of managing a GA in a dicey situation with about as many cops as occupiers. One of the Koch family wives was with the counter-group; she got an earful, without the insults and cuss words that make people like that tune you out.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)They had really deep understanding of GA issues. Completely committed to the movement.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)While the Kochs buy the vote...
patrice
(47,992 posts)only computer engineers, though I'm sure that they are into that too.
I taught AP Psych for high school (as science) and there are at least a few freaky bright young adults in the generation just under mine in my family; we are good friends. I know who I'm talking to when it comes to "kids". The group from Tulsa was also very comfortable talking literature AND the philosophy of science. Remarkably friendly *AND* confident, with the ease of people who know what they are doing and how to do it. You could see this in how well they dealt with Sierra Club who was just a little un-easy with the whole edgy situation.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)seeing in the tone of the country now. Occupy helped the dems grow balls. Without Occupy, "legitimate rape" was the tone and was not being talked down. Occupy brought to the public the awareness of the difference in the classes.
The 1% became so afraid of the movement. The power unleashed upon Occupy has not been seen since the 60's. Occupy succeeded against all odds.
It's purpose has already been served even if they do not one more thing. Occupy broke the trance.
Thanks to all who participated and to those who still do.
patrice
(47,992 posts)
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)Point to whatever positives have happened (through the efforts of others), then take credit for them.
If Occupy's purpose was to do exactly that, then yes, they have been successful in that singular achievement.
"Occupy brought to the public the awareness of the difference in the classes." Yeah, because no one ever noticed that before.
"Without Occupy, 'legitimate rape' was the tone and was not being talked down." That's almost as laughable as "the 1% became so afraid of the movement."
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)not occupy.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)and neither did Occupy.
The difference between me and OWS is that I'm not claiming to have done so. They are.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts) Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)that would be the most thought-provoking, knowledgeable, specifically detailed, irrefutable defense of OWS you'd be able to offer.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)
I don't need to defend OWS and don't understand why you or anyone who cared about this country would oppose it. You do something better to change the country? Thought not. Snort indeed.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)Anyone who finds the OWSies to be completely irrelevant thereby "opposes" them. The persecution complex has become a tiresome cliche.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)"Occupy didn't do what most of us had hoped. There are a lot of things about it that stopped being cute real fast. It's a trite consolation prize, but lessons were learned, including one that doesn't bode well for the power structure: the public can surprise you. This time, it settled into its comfortable habits, and that's what fucked the enterprise, IMO. But that thing that happened, in thousands of cities -- a lot of people never saw that coming, believing people too cowed and apathetic. You can't unring that bell.
Things will either get better for some reason (unlikely), or they'll reach the next level. There was a threshold that prompted people to get up, and about, and scream about the elephant in the room. There are other thresholds, and other reactions we've yet to see.
I think it's perfectly fine and healthy to cut our losses on a name associated and method that became impractical in a police state. But holy fuck, we're entering a police state, and now people are getting a whiff of that bullshit. If nothing else, we got the enemy to bare its ugly teeth.
From a personal standpoint, I have no regrets. Some of the proudest moments in my life were catching glimpses of awareness in people, or even hints of uncertainty that the empire is permanent. Even supposing that people had that much chutzpah in them was something I wouldn't have done in, say, August of 2011.
. . . .
In other words, Occupy's goals outpaced the dedication and resources of many, but the real effect, that I can't/won't deny, is that it trained a minority of people in skills that will become relevant as time progresses. And that minority means substantially more than the helpless Daily Show Democrats we had at the vanguard of, at least in America, political awareness.
I acknowledge that I may never take up the responsibilities I'd hoped for in building a better society, and could just sink into a comfortably tedious sort of life. But then, looking at the future, I find that hard to believe."
*************************
In a few short paragraphs, Mr. Caigoy has captured the longer-term significance of Occupy. No one saw it coming and, when it came, it showed that a better world is indeed possible if we only have the will to make it so. As Caigoy puts it so eloquently, "You can't unring that bell."
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)If your friend never saw the awareness in people, or the chutzpah necessary to change the world, he obviously wasn't paying attention.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)not occurred in your case.
Frankly, I find your snide, condescending and patronizing tone quite off-putting. Do you want to discuss this matter seriously or merely engage in tit-for-tat put downs? If the latter, please count me out.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)had fully-opened eyes long before Occupy ever existed.
If you don't like my tone, so be it. Just don't try to tell me that OWS has "changed the conversation" - which seems to be its main claim to fame - when the conversation has been changing and evolving since the dawn of time.
Sometimes it changes for the better - sometimes for the worse. But it is always ongoing, and Occupy didn't start it, nor change it in any perceptible way.
The pattern of the OWSies is easily discerned. Wait for positive change that was already being worked towards by others, then take credit for having accomplished it.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 23, 2012, 11:09 AM - Edit history (1)
the need for 'austerity.' Behind that sanitized word lay the brutal reality that the working class and poor would be taking it on the chin. Along comes Occupy and suddenly the word on everyone's lips is the '1%'. Now you can say that you were already privy to that insight before Occupy came along and, if so, bully for you. But the fact is that 'Austerity' was replaced by the '!%' for the masses
I was there and I saw it happen before my very eyes. No amount of your attempts to re-write history will change my perceptions of what I saw and experienced. And, frankly, I'm surprised to see you attempt to write Occupy and its accomplishments out of history. Behind that attempt, I sense some resentment, perhaps that you did not get credit for your activism and Occupy came along and stole the show. Well, I've been an activist since the late 70s and I saw and see Occupy as the consummation of what I have been working for all these many years and not as someone or something "taking credit" for my work beforehand. I'm sorry you don't see it in the same frame.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)that your participation in Occupy has been such a positive experience. I don't doubt for a minute that it has been just that for many. Nor do I doubt that some good has been accomplished.
However, to say that no one talked about the 1% before OWS is flatly untrue. Phrases like 'the Top 1%', the 'wealthy 1%ers", etc., have been around far longer than Occupy.
What OWS did was turn the phrase around by using the term "We are the 99%". It was a clever slogan by which the focus was changed from being on the haves to being on the have-nots, and it is indisputably Occupy's own original catch phrase. But they didn't invent the notion of the 1% holding more wealth and political sway than the rest of us. Nor did they educate people about the idea that a huge disparity exists between the 1% and the rest of the population. Uh, people kind of knew about that all along.
I take issue with the idea that I am the one trying to rewrite history. It is the OWSies who are doing so, by claiming that everything positive is somehow their doing. It's simply not.
Case in point: there was much cheering by the OWSies when Obama mentioned the high cost of a college education in his last SOTU speech. "He only talked about that because of Occupy," they said. They completely ignored the fact that Obama has been talking about the cost of a college education since his campaign days, as well as since being elected. That's just the kind of thing that causes people to question OWS's credibility - taking credit for pushing this administration to recognize a problem that it has recognized, and spoken about, all along.
I got into a debate with an OWSie on another website. He insisted that were it not for Occupy, Warren Buffett would never have had the balls to speak out about the disparity in the tax rate between the wealthy and the middle class. When I provided him with links to Buffett having told the story of his secretary paying more in taxes than he did DURING THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, he refused to acknowledge the facts, and went on insisting that it was OWS who led Buffett to speak out.
This is what you're up against when you insist that everything is somehow to the credit of Occupy. Just look at some of the comments on this board. The Dems are fighting back, because of Occupy. Harry Reid took on Romney's taxes, because of Occupy. In this very thread OP: "Without Occupy, "legitimate rape" was the tone and was not being talked down. Occupy brought to the public the awareness of the difference in classes."
Seriously? 'Legitimate rape' was the tone and wasn't being talked down until OWS came along? That's just sad. And I can assure you that the public has been aware of the difference in the classes since long before Occupy came along and pointed it out to them.
Again, I am glad that your experience has been positive, and that Occupy has been a satisfactory way for you, and others, to go about changing things for the better. But claiming to have changed the world requires something a bit more substantial than merely saying so.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)it to my wife, though, she pointed out that one thing that distinguished the Occupy movement was that it went national in scope, such that little tiny towns and villages had 'occupations' where before notions of 'class' and 'the class struggle' were honored more in the breach than in the observance. My wife knows of a tiny town in Florida where just two people had the courage to find one another and start speaking out on the courthouse steps right in the midst of "this right-wing bastion of dufuses" (my wife's words).
I would also point out that Occupy to my knowledge never tried to take credit for the idea of the '1%' and anyone who did or does betrays a stunning ignorance of history. However, as I pointed out, I think it is fair to state that Occupy changed the discourse from 'austerity' to the '99%-1%' trope.
This bourgeois capitalist system has pretty much treated my wife and me like shit for the past 20 years. For 8 weeks (Oct 1-Nov 30) in Occupy Los Angeles, I finally felt that I was being treated with respect as a human being with something of value to contribute. More to the point, I saw this respect being offered to people like the homeless and the mentally ill that the dominant political system has rendered all but invisible. How do you measure the value of an intangible like that?
I have many criticisms of Occupy also, based on that 8-week period. I'm not sure if this thread is the appropriate forum to air them but I'm game if you and other participants in this thread are.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)Despite a less than auspicious start in NYC, Occupy became the new fad in political discourse. The idea, to use the vernacular, went viral. Like the hula-hoop craze, everyone wanted one - and I don't mean that in a pejorative way. It captured the attention of many - most, if not all, for the right reasons. People realized they could get on board with this new idea from wherever they were.
All good things - like a product marketer's dream: with no marketing required, the product was literally selling itself.
That's why it was so sad to watch it all devolve into disarray so quickly, as everyone set up their own franchise of OWS without any regard to a sense of union or consistency. I read many of the various Occupy mission statements and mandates as they went on-line. They were often contradictory of each other. Some read like a list of complaints equal to War and Peace in length; others were full of vagaries. Many were downright incomprehensible.
My biggest problem with OWS is that although they have been very good at pin-pointing what they want changed, when it comes to how those changes are to be brought about, no answers are forthcoming. Believe me, I've tried - right here on DU. An example: "We want money taken out of politics." When asked, repeatedly, how Occupy intends to go about getting money out of politics, the only response one gets (if any at all) is a diatribe about people who obviously hate Occupy and just DON'T GET IT.
My other big problem is the persecution complex. The first time I heard "we can't have a leader because he would immediately be assassinated" was a matter of weeks into the movement. This was quickly followed by "the pigs are out to jail ALL of us, the 1% are TERRIFIED of us, Homeland Security is going to disappear us all," etc. At that point, OWS wasn't even a blip on most people's radar screen. And yet the cries of persecution, along with the delusions of grandeur, were already being touted as reality. Which it wasn't.
When reports of vandalism by OWSies are posted as OPs here, it takes a matter of seconds before the they're NOT with us and agents provocateur responses are posted. It has always been a 'Just Trust Us" meme - if something good happens, it's because of Occupy. If something bad happens, it's because of the actions of 'others'. No proof either way - just "trust us".
The lack of any central leadership is not, as the OWSies claim, reflective of true democracy where everyone has an equal say. It is reflective of an organization that is clearly disorganized, a movement consisting of hundreds of chiefs and no Indians - if I can use that phrase. Anyone and everyone can get on a message board like DU and claim to be speaking for Occupy - and their statements are all too often so disparate, none of them can be taken seriously.
Obvious mistakes were apparent from the get-go. And yet no one seemed to learn from those mistakes and alter direction accordingly. Promises continue to be made about the "next BIG thing" that OWS will be doing to dazzle the masses - and time after time, those BIG things never materialize. Interested questioners as to the movement's growth are invariably directed to OWS-run websites for information. Not that I'm comparing the two, but if I want to know what FOX-News's impact is on society, I am NOT going to go to FOX-New's website for an unbiased view of the situation.
When those who insist that OWS is now bigger and better than ever refuse to answer (despite being asked, over and over) how many people showed up at their much-touted First National Gathering in Philly this past July, it didn't take a rocket scientist to surmise that the numbers were appallingly low - which, as it turned out, they were. And when the only anecdotal evidence of there even having been a NatGat consists of a handful of people whining about not being given water by the local fire station - well, maybe it's time to admit that "bigger and better than ever!" was a complete bust.
But who knows? Perhaps the Phoenix of a viable political movement will rise from the ashes of what is now OWS - a real movement with organization, legitimate spokespeople, some form of leadership, and an ability to respond to queries that don't consist solely of "Just Trust Us", but actually includes some factual information.
I have enjoyed our discussion immensely. As for your wife's comment about "this right-wing bastion of dufuses", that is not only a keeper of a quote - it's downright steal-worthy!
All the best to both of you. Whether your future endeavors include OWS or not, I wish you every success in achieving the goals that are so obviously important to you.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)thinking in those first two weeks of October that it was if the spirit of 1848 had swept across the land, a spirit of revolutionary fervor that took on different guises depending on where it manifested.
By Week 6, though, I witnessed one of the Occupy Los Angeles General Assemblies descend into what I can only call pure 'mob rule' as various attendees 'rushed the stack,' placing facilitators (myself included) and speakers in serious jeopardy of life and limb. No one was hurt, fortunately, but the descent into Bedlam was quite sobering. I must be too much the logocentric authoritarian because, when I protested these gross violations of what I will call 'parliamentary procedure' by all these would-be tinpot dictators, I was told it was simply the process 'working itself out.' This shit reached the ludicrous dimension that, in mid-November, as Facilitation concluded and the GA was to begin, the drum circle continued to drum away madly, as though drumming somehow would help put toilet paper in the porta potties or present any kind of unified and solid resistance to the municipal powers who were starting to exhibit overt hositility to OLA. Oh, those drummers in the drum circle had just as much right to drum as anyone had to have a GA, the principal legislative vehicle by which OLA administered itself. I so wanted OLA to succeed that I swallowed my misgivings to an extent. If you had seen these latter-day Dionysians drumming away in a fit of percussive ecstasy, as though through percussion they would vanquish not only their own inner demons but also those of OLA in general, you begin to see the absurdity to which OLA could all too often descend. OLA became the perfect apotheosis of what Tom Wolfe had earlier called the "Me Generation."
For what it's worth, I never could get anyone at Occupy Los Angeles to commit to the idea of 'one man, one vote' (a concept I hold near and dear). Many of them had difficulty it seemed understanding what the concept even meant. Most OLAs condemned voting as itself some sort of sell-out. But after everyone got through condemning the current political status quo for its obvious inequities, no one would discuss a mechanism by which power should be distributed in society. Was it to be 100% consensus as practiced at the OLA GA, where one person could hard-block the GA into perfect stasis, making the Republican filibusters look like amateur hour? Was it to be some Leninist vanguard directing the proletariat (my preference)? No one could or would say. Everyone wanted to bitch about the status quo, but few were willing to walk precincts or do any of the grunt-level stuff that makes politics work and revolutions succeed.
And yet. And yet . . . despite these paroxysms of utter self indulgence to which my wife and I were all too often witness, in that square block of Los Angeles real estate, more honest political discourse was taking place every 24 hours than took place in the entire national political venues in a month. It is this spirit of earnest honesty, of tireless striving, that I shall always remember and treasure.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)So beautifully put.
There are many people out there that long for that sense of tireless trying - and would gladly be a part of it.
It is unfortunate that Occupy proved less than worthy in their actions than its adherents proved worthy in their ideals, and their fervor in upholding them.
But, as I said, perhaps the Phoenix will rise from the ashes - and a new day will dawn, a day of earnest honesty.
I thank you for sharing your thoughts and your perspective - it has been a learning experience of note that I, too, will always remember and treasure.
May peace be with you, and follow you in all that you do.
tama
(9,137 posts)We don't know the answer, but we DO know there is not just single instrumental answer, but that the answer is the totality of our lives. At local level many of us are already doing and living the hows of money out of politics - ecocommunities, alternative local money systems etc. The message was and is: don't expect change from the top of the hierarchy, be the change you want.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)"the money out of politics" exactly how?
This is the problem. It is easy to say what we don't like - it is quite another to do something about it. 'Alternative money systems' haven't removed a single penny from the campaign coffers.
tama
(9,137 posts)Many people today mean by 'politics' only partisan politics and top of power hierarchies, but it really means matters of community and social life. People who live in a 'polis' of self-sustainable ecocommunity without money have taken money out of their politics. When individual doesn't believe in money and give it power over his life and relations, he's taking money out of politics. Be the change you want to accomplish.
When you refuse to give money power over your life and relations, you are declaring political independence (of various degrees) from centers of money and power. And that is an revolutionary act. Act of building alternative society with different values and practices than money and power. That's what grass roots movements and politics are about, building alternative and at this point parallel society to replace the corrupt and collapsing system, while also resisting the harms of the corrupt and collapsing system to the best of our ability. And that process has actually little to do with intellectual political debate (mostly about what others should do) and all to do with basic gut feeling.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)that we sat here and watched the fucking country tumble during the bush years with the Dem's not being able to find a ball or spine in their anatomy.
Now the pugs are on the run and the Dem's are standing strong.
Just a mother fucking coincidence in your bubble?
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)that you actually believe your own delusions.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)how the rich are buying politicians and laws, while the poor and middle class gets fucked, has nothing to do with Occupy.
Just one big 99% coincidence.
One big political platform. Ooops OWS couldn't have shaped politics.
Yeah right, I'm the delusional one.
Please
I'm done with you. Put you in my pile with Chuck Norris and the baggers . Not worth the effort to re-explain to those willfully not able to see.
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)Firstly, no, not EVERYONE is talking about it. Again there is this delusion that EVERYONE is being enlightened by OWS, and following their lead. For the vast majority of Americans, OWS isn't even a blip on the radar screen.
As for "the rich buying politicians and laws", if you honestly believe that this is a new discussion in politics that was never talked about before Occupy, you obviously haven't been around very long.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Takes credit for the Arab Spring for example.
RZM
(8,556 posts)From what I can tell, the wealthy mostly ignored it. And when they did pay attention they scoffed or looked on in amusement.
A large, organized, and sustained movement might have scared some people. But I don't think occupy was any of those things.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)protesters while taking money from the banks. Maybe if you had been there, you could have seen.
RZM
(8,556 posts)This wasn't the first time the police have ran people off with force. That's not all that uncommon.
You know what would have scared the 1 percent?
A play for real political power.
MADem
(135,425 posts)They get some sweet overtime pay for those protest details. And in some places, the hours racked up.
And We, The People paid for them.
I suppose OWS helped to fill up a few cops' kids college education funds.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)in the millions. So yes, the banks are buying in a round about way, the police state we are seeing.
There have also been many reports here on du of the banks coordinating against Occupy with the police.
So yes, they are afraid and are using their usual way (cash) to get what they want. And it is working for them.
MADem
(135,425 posts)pay of police officers comes from the treasuries of towns and cities where the protests or demonstrations take place.
It's one thing for a bank--or a disco--to contract privately with off duty cops for security, but when a city is doing the job, the city is paying the freight. If the bank made a "donation" to the police, it probably went to the Widow's and Orphan's fund.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)I don't have time to find it for you but it was most likely here on DU. Not sure which bank. Might find it in the Occupy group.
We are becoming a police state, bought and paid for by the huge corporations.
MADem
(135,425 posts)learned a lot from the example of people with big heart and infinite resources of compassion and patience when dealing with problems of less fortunate. There were lots of people like that in the movement. I guess not many homeless write on DU, but I'm sure OWS was life-changing experience also to many of them, getting treated with compassion and respect. Which alone makes it worth all the trouble.
Let the complainers complain and leadership cultists to expect their Saviour, if that is all they can and will do.
patrice
(47,992 posts)I spent several days in St. Louis with them. They looked like 2-3 generation counter-culture to me. The real deal. And they ran absolutely wonderful General Assemblies. NONE of the crap that was going on at our own GAs.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)
zappaman
(20,606 posts)I have said the same thing here many times and have been called a RWinger spouting RW talking points.
Apparently, if you don't think OWS is the greatest political movement...oops, they have now started calling it a social movement...of all time, you must not be a Democrat.
riverbendviewgal
(4,252 posts)I came to Canada August 15th, 1969 as a refugee from America.
Now I am a Canadian citizen.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)Is it nice up there? I'm thinkin' I may have waited too long...
riverbendviewgal
(4,252 posts)Beautiful country. nice people. great health care. went through cancer killing brain tumor for my son and cancer killing non-hodgkins lymphoma for my husband. They were diagnosed 2 months apart. Got the best treatment in the best hospitals in the country. There was no medical bills.. I am a widow enjoying my retirement.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)didn't add to your grief and pain.
Amazing what people want to fight to keep in place here, eh?
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)which is...power is in the people's hands. The people are the power. The 99% are the world and are taking it back. And the classically-inspired horizontal democracy of the GA are an alternative method of decision-making and self-governance.
Imagine the powers that be allowing the growth of a people-powered form of self-governance.
juxtaposed
(2,778 posts)Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)My generation did this in Berkeley. We thought we were changing the world too. But guess what? The world is pretty much the same as it was. The same assholes are still in power and the same people are still chanting "power to the people" and not actually doing anything useful beyond making noise that everyone else is busy ignoring.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)You changed the world. You ended the war, you showed people love can work, you showed people peace is better! And you had much better music than we do. Sigh... Never underestimate the enormous power of what you have accomplished. No one would use "hippy" as a derogatory term if they were not absolutely terrified of it replacing everything they know! I am proud to be called a hippy by those working for destruction. It means I'm doing something right!
Now is the time to do it again, and to make it stick.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)I wan't the part that means I get lots of women and booze. And I want to be able to fire people like Romney.
But seriously, the problem that we faced is the problem that you face, and that hasn't been answered satisfactorily yet.
How, specifically, do you give "power to the people"? How does that work, exactly, when the people don't agree about a lot of very fundamental things? Give everybody a vote? That sounds like a good idea. Oh, wait. We already have that, and half the people don't even bother to vote. And the rich people will end up spending money to persuade everyone else to vote their way. So o.k., what's plan B for how to "give the power to the people"?
It's a nice glib, fancy-sounding phrase of the kind young idealists like to spout. But it doesn't mean diddly shit if you can't talk about the specifics of implementation of putting the power in the hands of the people.
You don't have a clue how you would do that, do you?
OWS failed because it hand NOTHING SPECIFIC that it could aim for. NO SPECIFIC GOAL that could be used to measure progress toward success. OWS was always about the vague, the general, the fuzzy, the idealistic, and never about the practical reality of making the world a better place.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)World English Dictionary
democracy (dɪˈmɒkrəsɪ
— n , pl -cies
1. government by the people or their elected representatives
2. a political or social unit governed ultimately by all its members
3. the practice or spirit of social equality
4. a social condition of classlessness and equality
5. the common people, esp as a political force
[C16: from French démocratie, from Late Latin dēmocratia, from Greek dēmokratia government by the people; see demo- , -cracy ]
"by the people"; "governed ultimately by all its members", "social equality", "equality"...
Horizontal democracy means those who participate, decide. All have equal voice and opportunity for being heard. I've participated in many GAs and although it is a system requiring growth and perspective, it is far better than the Koch brothers buying an election through Citizens United.
You cannot force everyone to participate in any system, of course. And thank you for the personal attacks; that means you don't have a real point to make.
I proffer the General Assembly, versus the true Fascism of corporate-owned government by purchased representatives. I've been there, I've done it. I'm by no means an idealist, if you must be personal.
How would it happen? Through enough people wanting Change and uniting toward it. It's begun; I don't have to do anything. Of course, if they choose to not do it, they'll get what they wish.
OWS has not failed. ALEC is breaking apart from direct social pressure...this is one target we are successfully engaging. Educating America about Citizens United and Glass-Steagall has been working as well. It's up to everyone to participate in creating these changes. I'm here, I'm working upon it even by posting this. Why are you shouting against it instead of using that time and energy to educate others into working for positive change against these extremely specific targets?
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)Town hall meetings were part of the fabric of early America. Native American tribal councils, and tribal chieftains all over the world still employ that method.
It does not, however, scale up. It does not work on a national level. Hell, it wouldn't even work on a state level. You cannot run the nation using the same methods used to run a neighborhood homeowners association. And mumbling "magic words" like "horizontal democracy" won't change that simple fact.
tama
(9,137 posts)and one of the main reasons to question the necessity of nation states and other big power hierarchies. But also on the other hand, OWS was and is part of a global movement of horizontal democracy that works much through horizontal media of Internet.
Do your own check, on what level of consciousness is your consciousness most fixed on and give most attention to, local, national or global? Some other?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)everyone knows this.
MLK knew it, Ghandi knew it. Lenin knew it. Everyone knows it.
juxtaposed
(2,778 posts)Ben_Caxton
(28 posts)... to make that a superlative statement.
Is it one of those "no true Scotsman" things where anyone who did commit violence was never really part of the club?
This is why, among other reasons, OWS failed. Inability to see the world how it is and instead just talk talk talk about how they think it is or should be.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)
Fla_Democrat
(2,547 posts)but I never see anyone protesting. Course, all the rain we have been having ......... 
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)DevonRex
(22,541 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)Finland fell in love with Rainbow people when European Rainbow was in Finland and the event became very public thing. Tabloid helicopters hovering above the camp, big headlines about 'Naked Hippies', and the Rainbow people decided to be open and talk to media and present their charming selves. Magic times. 
Fla_Democrat
(2,547 posts)The morning show host (Preston Scott) announced that the city was evicting them on Sept 1st. Will know in a bit over a week.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Oh, sorry, I got this thread confused with the others. It's surprisingly easy to do these days.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)seems so.
amerikat
(4,909 posts)One year ago last September we began an occupation that pinpointed the Villain in the broad nightmare that has become of the American Dream: Wall Street.
To commemorate and build upon our collective call that ‘enough is enough’, join us this September 15 -17 in a mass mobilization of the 99%.
Dkc05
(375 posts)I would think its important to challenge the 1% there.
amerikat
(4,909 posts)Police are using the same tactics and are trying to harass them before the can get anything going.
http://occupytampa.org/home/
MADem
(135,425 posts)RKP5637
(67,108 posts)
Petrushka
(3,709 posts)RKP5637
(67,108 posts)
onehandle
(51,122 posts)RKP5637
(67,108 posts)onehandle
(51,122 posts)A bunch of students and activists get together and out come the authorities.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)the masses by the media. Of course that's been going on forever, but not with the focus and intensity we see today IMO.
patrice
(47,992 posts)Here is some longitudinal research on the racist groups that birthed the Tea Party, that is, it's research that was underway for some decades, watching race issues and hate groups and this research group observed the emergence of the Tea Party out of racist grassroots groups. The guy who heads up this research group has spent most of his life studying racism. I think there's a count of the aggregate size of the various groups, including the Tea Party, on his website here:
http://www.irehr.org/
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)relationship or a set of them and in this area, one might consider how those sets of relationships co-relate with those who implemented the Help America Vote Act of 2002 in this region.
patrice
(47,992 posts)RKP5637
(67,108 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)database? It contains Ag Subsidy recipients by state and name:
http://farm.ewg.org/
I should take some time to dig out some links I have that say there's a certain class of Republicans who are very uncomfortable with the whole subsidy-scene.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Just sayin'.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Outside RNC, inside the dems.
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)who are being foreclosed upon unfairly. And they've had some success, too.
But they get NO press coverage for it.
That's what they do in America instead of sending people to Siberia: they ignore them.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)very effect tool now that corporate media has a throttle on most avenues for mass consumption.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)They're doing fantastic work!
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)OccupyHomesMN has been doing all those serious foreclosure actions all summer. You're right about the media ignoring it too. Can you imagine if the tea party or some other right wing "taxpayer" group had been staging those kinds of actions? We would never have heard the end of it. Fox "News" was the propaganda machince that kept the teaparty rolling. Occupy does not have the benefit of it's very own cable news channel.
Thank goodness for independent media.
http://www.theuptake.org/2012/08/10/social-media-potent-weapon-in-foreclosure-fight/
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)Except for the occasional story now and then. What do you want, daily media coverage of every volunteer in every soup kitchen? That's not newsworthy. A million good people in this country are doing a million good things every day to help their neighbors and they aren't getting any media coverage. Is that a conspiracy? What makes your pet project worthy of media coverage? Why are you entitled to coverage when the people volunteering in the homeless shelter don't get daily coverage? Why is occupy entitled to media coverage when the people cleaning up trash as part of an "adopt a highway" program don't get daily coverage? Fine. They're doing good work. They're not the only people doing good work, so stop whining about being ignored by the media as if it's some grand conspiracy. It's not.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)In my opinion the home foreclosure resistance in Minneapolis is newsworthy. Have you been following their actions over the summer?
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)It's not a non-political charitable venture that has been in place for decades.
Heavens, the newspapers provide coverage if someone develops a new kind of beer.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)The media doesn't like covering peaceful protests. I can't call it a conspiracy, but it's just the way the whole system is. I really have to question the people who decide what is "newsworthy". They present a certain view of the world based on which stories they choose to cover or ignore. I think most of their selection of what is newsworthy is determined by career considerations, and not necesarrily what serves the public interest.
tama
(9,137 posts)Biggest lie of corporate media - and other tools - is not what they say but leave unsaid. Personally I've become very bored of anyone expecting the corporate media to behave in any other way than they are supposed to. They live in their secluded delusion bubble, life is elsewhere.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)At least locally they are very active, and no camping involved. Plenty of city council meetings though, and conferences, and grassroots organizing.
Press...well it is far less glamorous I guess.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)grassroots organizing."
I guess going forward the traditional press needs to be forgotten and circumvented as an effective tool for visibility until a critical level is reached.
kimbutgar
(21,153 posts)2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)"they" should be. U coming?
snooper2
(30,151 posts)
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)and the 50% of US counties in disaster-area levels of drought continue or increase. And fracking continues to destroy the water tables.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Americans are just totally captured by their televisions. If it isn't on TV, it isn't happening.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)It's the very definition of anarchism, and anarchism was the founding impetus of OWS ... which is why it was bound to fall apart. (Also, its tactics alienated broad swaths of people who otherwise would have supported a message about inequality and capitalist excesses, but don't find camping in parks or loud drumming very effective, appealing, or useful activities.)
E.g. most indigenous tribes and and modern ecocommunities are anarchic, though they seldom use that word. You seem to be mistaking power hierarchies and following orders of those power hierarchies to "group activities". For example Rainbow gatherings was mentioned above this thread, they are very anarchic, very persistent group activities, and well functioning. Anarchist squats are very persistent group activities. From what I've seen anarchist group activities are least quarrelsome and most practically efficient.
Anarchism is all about communities and communalism, how to live together in peace and respectful of individual needs. If you don't care about practical examples and need more theory, read Kropotkin.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)This should indicate to everyone that the MSM are indeed owned by powers most uninterested in the changes OWS demand.
For instance, here is some info on why Occupy protested the NATO convention in Chicago, and that at least five are still imprisoned (one beyond that might be an OLA member who was freed by an NLG observer's statement, but a grand jury was convened against him and charges reinstated without telling him; he turned himself in, occupy raised $7,500 bail, and he's wearing an electronic anklette in house arrest...and is in great spirits, spreading the word about Occupy.)
About the best coverage of OWS you'll get in the MSM are stories such as today's article that Tampa have emptied a jail in preparation for mass arrests...for protesters engaging peacefully in their 1st Amendment rights.
For some of us, it is already a police state.
Also, Occupy is a people-powered movement. If you expect others to make Change in the world, please join them and help
Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)But now, as much as I hate to say it... Occupy is kaput.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Tim Pool @Timcast
#Tampa Authorities Empty Jail of 1700 beds In Anticipation Of Mass Arrests At GOP Convention. #RNC
http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/08/22/729141/tampa-authorities-empty-jail-in-anticipation-of-mass-arrests-at-gop-convention/?mobile=nc
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)It wasn't "Occupy" making a ruckus in Minneapolis, Philadelphia, Chicago and other cities which have had party conventions and substantial protests.
Just because they are clearing space in the event of trouble, does not have any relation to the identity of any of a number of different kinds of folks who show up. If a mob goes after, say Westboro Baptist Asylum, they'll need space just the same.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Awww.....
Everyone should be thankful for those willing to shout down the monsters at each and every turn even or especially at risk of personal safety and freedom.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Yeah, that's what everyone with an opinion thinks.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)1. Citizens United ruling allows corporations and people like the Koch brothers, who just dumped $100 million into having their choice of a vice presidential candidate, direct access to political power through unlimited financial contribution. This is Mussolini's definition of Fascism: Direct control or influence of state via corporate power. The Kochs want the EPA ended so they don't have to upgrade their industry investments, for example. They can make it happen if not stopped.
2. Glass-Steagall...must be reinstated to stop the banks and banksters. $16 trillion has been stolen, and zero, ZERO politicians are saying a word about getting it back. They talk plenty about austerity and necessary social cuts, though. See: Greece, Spain...and baby steps toward it in the US in testing grounds such as Michigans county supervisors and Benton Harbor, etc.
3. ALEC. The corporate-driven legislative council has been making public law, including the "stand your ground" law. Occupy are helping disassemble them through pressuring corporate sponsors to leave. Once again, Fascism.
There is sooo much more, but changing just these three items should be the most pressing concerns in our country, not for whom to vote, because none of the politicians of whom I am aware are saying anything whatsoever addressing these issues. It is up to the people to stop the monsters, and I for one will scream as long and as loudly as is required.
Yes, yes, Occupy is dead, Occupy doesn't know what it wants....makes me severely question any who would shout against Occupy, with issues such as this as our targets. Utterly ignoring the police-state crackdowns against the message and actions, which destroys the 1st Amendment, an absolute necessity of freedom...
tama
(9,137 posts)And refusal to grow up and accept one's share of adult responsibility. People expecting leaders to fulfill their wishes and complain when not even OWS is not the leader from heaven are behaving like children expecting their parents to deliver, and the system wants to keep them that way.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts) tama
(9,137 posts)to share my constructive criticism of OWS, which I adopted from long term activist and organizer Al Giordano. Society at large and especially police force is full of those that have given into the sadist perv side, who get emotional pleasure from bunch of hippies getting beaten and then shocked and terrorized from police brutality. As it is supposed to. It's contrary to our interests to keep on feeding and strengthening those emotions.
On the other hand lot's of people do get terrorized by the continuous police brutality porn of the OWS media, often so scared that they don't want to participate.
These facts don't make OWS and generally revolutionary communication strategies any easier. Of course violence and violations need to be reported, but constant stream of brutality porn works just as intended by brutalizers, and emotions of shock and fear attached to the sensationalist stream of brutality porn become more and more shared emotions, growing the feelings of victimhood and frustration instead of empowerment and directing and transforming rage into positive and effective action.
I can't offer much practical advice, but I'm sure many others have given these issues good thought and found ways to communicate that tell the story and facts without making us weaker and more afraid. Or maybe what it takes is transforming demonstration etc. tactics into something that is able to deliver and tell different stories.
juxtaposed
(2,778 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts) Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)and a brutal crackdown on the use of water-soluble children's chalk...!!!
A Marine I know says the nearest SWAT member is holding an M32 grenade launcher, or its most recent sibling. Still in testing with the Marine Corps. $32,000 each. And here it's being used to intimidate a peaceful march toward Disneyland. I watched this on livestream as it happened. They were completely peaceful. Goodbye 1st Amendment:
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)especially if you are the next person out protesting.
During the same day: Tim Pool, citizen journalist, checked three times in one place for ID...a public place. A PUBLIC PLACE.
People are ignoring what this country is turning into/has turned into. The 1st Amendment is dead, stolen.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If you meant the one in the first pic two posts above.
The one in that pic looks like a paintball gun.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 23, 2012, 03:35 AM - Edit history (1)
the point that =police shouldn't have military weaponry and use them or threaten to use them against peaceful citizens=.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=m32+grenade+launcher&pc=Z128&form=ZGAFDF&install_date=20111121
Seriesly? PEACEFUL CITIZENS. The use of force or threat of force to get people to change their behavior, especially in regard to political ends, is the definition of terrorism.
The second weapon is a pepper-ball gun. Anaheim cops, over a period of two weeks, fired these directly at protesters including seated women and children, when training is to fire them at the ground in front of targets, allowing the capsicum content to affect the target(s).
Not only that, but the US are signatories to two international weapons treaties disallowing the use of tear gas and pepper spray in war.
Cops can use this against peaceful citizens but not against soldiers in time of war. Why aren't people hearing this?
Look at them firing repeatedly at seated women and children, pop pop pop pop:
Police are said to have gone door-to-door asking to purchase all recordings of their attacks.
And they shot at Tim Pool and Amber Lyon, who had press passes. This is the death of the freedom of Journalism in America, and no one is saying a word:
Robb
(39,665 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)don't come crying to me. FFS. I posted the livestream from which the image is taken. Zero problems, just peaceful protesters sharing the message of murdering, racist police...who showed up with military weapons and told them to go home.
Nothing wrong here, nothing to see, nothing has been lost, shop as usual and no panic buying.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Blecht
(3,803 posts)Police violence seemed to be coordinated across the country.
The brutal response to OWS in Portland, OR after the happy-face cops were yucking it up with everybody during the initial stages was appalling. It got really nasty here -- clubs and pepper spray galore.
Violent intimidation works -- up to a point. It worked this time. But it's possible that OWS, or something like it, will manage to get past the tipping point where people do not care if they get their heads bashed in, and a successful movement will happen.
juxtaposed
(2,778 posts)mick063
(2,424 posts)But the message of these warriors struck the core of my very soul. They are my personal heroes.
I served our nation at the height of the cold war as a sailor in the United States Navy. I believe these people served our nation every bit as much as I did. Perhaps more. I believe every person that was beaten or showered with pepper spray should get a purple heart. If I could pin a distinguished service medal on every one of them, I would.
They brought the evils of our corrupt financial system into the public consciousness. They highlighted the formerly indistinguishable line between politicians and those that pay for personalized, profitable legislation. They inspired bloggers across the nation to dig deeper and report what they had found. They unified America with the rest of the world in greater measure, in a single summer, than George W. Bush did in eight years as President.
Without them, Bain Capital would be widely regarded as a credible resume builder. Just at the time when Mr 1% himself became the likely nominee for the GOP, everyone was made well aware that there was a 1% in existence and they were made aware of this long before the political process even started. Without them, the theory of "trickle down" economics would not be so severely challenged in this election year.
The OWS movement could disappear from the face of the earth today and the OWS impact will still be felt now and into the future.
OWS inspired me to search for progressive websites which in turn led me to finding DU. From DU, I have found linked references that have helped build my arguments that I spread like a farmer sowing seed. If others were inspired like I was, the ripple effect is incalculable.
Don't rely on visual aesthetics to understand what they accomplished. Tearing down the tents did not tear down the idea. There are plenty of people, like me, that are quietly, privately seething inside. The difference is that you don't see me on the nightly news.
I cheered for OWS on television like I was cheering for my favorite football team. Just because I don't see this team anymore doesn't make the OWS "Super Bowl" season any less memorable. Indeed it is something I will remember for the rest of my life. As vividly as I remember Joe Namath defeating the Baltimore Colts in 1969.
My overall view of politics took a hard turn to the left at the end of George W. Bush's term. OWS cemented those views so solidly, that I no longer am content to just vote progressive, but I will continuously attempt to convert my vote into 2 or 5 or 10 progressive votes by being inspired enough (by OWS) to persuade those that are undecided. OWS armed me with strong arguments to help get that done.
Lydia Leftcoast
(48,217 posts)who brought food and other supplies to the Occupiers.
They actually put out a message in Minneapolis saying that they had enough bread and apples.
There was a group of women who brought hot soup or stew every night as the weather grew cold, cold enough that the leftovers froze.
I brought them non-food supplies: Kleenex, aspirin, hand sanitizer, marking pens, and I forget what else. I had to stand in line to make my donation. The man in front of me donated a case of soy milk. Others dropped $20 bills into the box.
None of that was covered in the media.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)
deutsey
(20,166 posts)Thank you.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)http://www.theuptake.org/2012/06/22/high-profile-arrest-at-evicted-minneapolis-familys-home/
They have really helped some people and made a point. People over profits, that's the point. They should be gettiing more attention by now.
vaberella
(24,634 posts)I think they might have had good intentions and then they got co-opted by a lot of hipsters, LaRouchies and maybe even former teabaggers. I never heard a clear message from them let alone figured out what the purpose of Occupy Oakland was about. Was it Wallstreet, fore closures, banks, police brutality...
I think without a clear message and a central base organizing everything....it's not sustainable.
tama
(9,137 posts)co-opted by liberals/Democrats. Which is where the most persistent attempts and demands to co-opt came from.
PS: what "liberal" means in US is still, or rather day by day more and more confusing to me. It's supposed to mean something lefty in US, but many people who call themselves liberals in US sound just as right wing or even more so as European liberals, who without question identify with right wing, so I'm starting to doubt that maybe there ain't much difference between US and European meanings of the word.
Proles
(466 posts)it'd have reorganized into something far more powerful and cohesive by this summer.
Unfortunately, as many have said, their message got diluted.
Their number one accomplishment was bringing the problem of income inequality to the forefront. But other than that, there was no established leadership to OWS to put together concise objectives -- true ideas to fix a broken financial system. There was no plan to push for liberal Democrats in the same way the Tea Party pushed for right wing radicals. In fact, many in OWS shunned participation in the political process altogether -- feeling it to be a waste of time.
It's not all their fault though. They were up against an entrenched corporate environment and right-wing controlled media. And hey, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if the powers that be were like, "Hey, we can't destroy OWS, so lets just help to dilute their message."
It's just a shame that a lot of the energy faded away -- but I maintain hope that people will truly rise up again if things get worse... especially if republicans win the presidency and congress.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)-The message got ignored because the six or so corporate entities who own and run the majority of US media do not want the message of change, financially inconvenient to them, to spread.
-It is up to the 99%, the people, to continue spreading the message. It will not be done for you.
-A leader would have immediately been jailed and tortured; would still be in Gitmo under section 1021 of the NDAA.
-The people are their own leader(ship).
-The broken financial system is fighting against OWS so don't expect to hear about it on channels they own.
-There is plenty of pressure upon Democrats. Who have responded with tear gas, rubber bullets, flash-bangs, beatings, bloodying, nuisance arrests, profiling, intimidation, terrorism (by the FBI's definition). Quan, Villaraigosa, denver's mayor, seattle's, etc. etc. etc. 18 of them conference called to see what to do and they did it, in a co-ordinated national crackdown overseen by DHS. Democratic mayors are some of the worst, most violent offenders upon Occupy. We remember them and will not stop fighting against their blatant corruption.
-OWS are not owned by a fascist corporate power such as the Koch brothers so don't expect them to run for office as the tea party so disastrously has.
-Occupy know the system to be corrupt perhaps beyond reformation, and that Change occurs through both pressuring the existing system and creating new models obsoleting it.
-Seriously. With Citizens United, the system is utterly corrupt. Pressure from outside is required. Voting will not eliminate Citizens United. You are expecting change to be brought through a system no longer interested in listening to those participating in it.
-Direct action gets the goods.
-We are not gone, in spite of the beliefs of any who only listen to the corporate-owned mainstream media.
-It IS entirely up to the people. If Occupy lack people power, it is because people do not want to participate and create change and as such, will accomplish exactly that.
We are the 99%. We are the power in the world. We don't need the corrupt rich and destructive systems. We are fighting for the very survival of the planet as the ecosystem is further bloodied. It is up to US, to YOU, to participate in the Change you wish to see. No one is going to do it for you.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)The best protests they ever managed were organized by unions--from permits to march routes to signage, the unions had their shit together.
Lack of leadership killed that movement. People tend to like the "leader" paradigm, and the more charismatic they are, the better they like 'em. "Gee, he/she is saying what I am thinking!!!"
If they ever do manage to revive the effort, I hope they do it with a few articulate leaders.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)very very difficult in a country as huge as the US to shun political affiliation. For example, look at how the teabaggers reshaped the republican party. IMO OWS could have done somewhat similar with the democratic party. Yep, OWS did not want to be co-opted by the democratic party, at least as I understood it, but when co-opted one has a chance to perhaps reshape those that co-opted them. I think that was a lost opportunity. ... well, at least to me.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)and so it lost its own unique meaning as it was watered down to mean any hippie camping trip in a city park.
It was a waste of time. I don't doubt that they are still "holding meetings" somewhere, and patting themselves on the back, telling each other how significant their movement is, but occupy is "of the past".
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Watching so many people united in a positive cause, actively challenging bullshit and doing what it takes to build a better world for everyone is daily inspiring.
Turn off your TV. We are here, but not where "they" are, and control.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)But the world doesn't hear you, so it doesn't matter what you say to each other in your private echo chamber.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)The world is ALEC breaking apart under fire, is people becoming educated about the issues we face which must be addressed, and addressed outside of the electoral system.
Join the 99%, or wonder why things never changed for the better when they had the chance. Work for positive change instead of shouting against those working for it.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)The world is not some small local camping club with lofty political ideals either. And it's not even a loose-knit collection of local camping clubs with lofty political ideals. "the world" is, frankly, about almost everybody else. OWS is a statistically insignificant fringe.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The risk of relying on leaders to focus and articulate a message and a platform was not taken by these groups, for whatever reason.
It was a tremendous opportunity and I fear it was squandered. Too much groupthink and farting around, too much toleration of disruptors, anarchists, drunks and assholes, not enough honed, focused organization and discipline. IMO.
I know others will get mad at me for saying what I think, but oh, well.
Speck Tater
(10,618 posts)It was never a pack of hunting dogs going after their prey.
It was always a pack of stray cats wandering aimlessly in every direction imaginable.
(Kind of reminds of the Democratic Party, now that I think about it.)
tama
(9,137 posts)from the beginning. And getting mad (and projecting that) is your morning oatmeal, dear MADem, who so badly needs leaders.
MADem
(135,425 posts)that I might take your point?
If you're saying I am mad (and your point is not clear, there), you're not correct. I thought OWS was a grand opportunity squandered. It could have been a party pusher, or a new party.
Now, it's just a circle of friends that occasionally make a small fuss.
just making fun or your nick - no self irony meant? - and remembering that last time we spoke you sounded very mad. You sound serious about yourself and your partisanship that I see no point of trying to have a serious discussion with. Maybe I'm wrong with my first impressions, but that's how I feel now.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The Dem is, well, Dem!
Life is too short to get mad.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)instead of spewing shit against them, it would have made the difference. But hey, why put yourself out right?
I see a lot of people on here bitching about how OWS should have and could have, but didn't. Shouting from your keyboard didn't seem to help much. Maybe if some of you got your own asses and put them on the line like occupiers have done, you would be worth listening to. You make the change you want to see. ANd you don't have to camp to do it. Just do it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)If you're not a thousand percent cheerleader, you're "spewing shit" and "bitching" and "shouting from your keyboard" -- is that it?
My idea of "making a difference" is a bit different from yours. I take old people to the grocery and the doctor. I help them with minor repairs around their homes. I bring them to the polls to vote in primaries, local elections and general elections--by the hundreds. I "put myself out" every fucking day. I do it for free, I don't even ask the "gubmint" for mileage. I just do it because there's a need.
I don't have piles from sitting on concrete complaining about "the man" and trying to protect my backpack of goodies I swiped from Mom's pantry from some pungent gentleman with a bottle of Night Train and a bad attitude.
Sitting around on my ass--with or without a keyboard--living in a tent on a sidewalk in unsanitary conditions, with signs, voting on absolutely NOTHING of importance with a bunch of self-important twits using hand signals, repeating everything some idiot with a stick says, refusing to do basic community things like getting a permit for a march, fucking with the police for pure sport, refusing to repudiate those black hoodie vandals, is NOT "making a difference." It's making a bit of a spectacle, and making a public health hazard, and making people think you're a bunch of self-important, immature assholes. The bottom line is this--OWS hasn't done shit all summer, and they can't blame the weather. They'll show up for the conventions, and act like they matter, but they don't. They could have been heroes, they captured the dissatisfaction--and they squandered it, like selfish children. And now--by their own lack of positivity, their own refusal to seek out leadership, their own hubris--they aren't the giants they could have been, they're just fleas.
I have eyes and I can see. Try it sometime.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)I mean do NOT do, I guess
MADem
(135,425 posts)If you think that's ROFL funny, it says so very much about you. None of it terribly good.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)10 years. And now I still take care of my handicapped brother. So don't even think to lecture me on people not taking care of their parents.
MADem
(135,425 posts)no reason to do what I do, daily, rain/sleet/snow/gloom of night. Your suggestion that I spend my time getting piles on a cold sidewalk with a bunch of gripers with a talking stick instead of taking Mrs. Johnson to the oncologist is total bullshit.
You don't get to decide, see? And good thing, too.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)Really. It's not like it's your job right? So good on you.
chknltl
(10,558 posts)Recruit the homeless. They too are our fellow citizens. Treat their recruitment as a service. Their Job is to go where asked in order to fill out the ranks of the occupy crowd. Their job will be to become educated to US civics and current economics as taught by your volunteers. Their job will also be to participate in this upcoming election if they are eligible to do so.
In return for this they are to be provided with meals and shelter, transportation if needs be too.
The homeless are legion, they could seriously add to your numbers.
I believe given the chance they would allow themselves to be organized and led in the struggle to take back our country, especially if there is something in it for them. Aren't we progressives about helping those in need?
The money to do this will come from donations. The amount of citizens in the US who can not participate in the Occupy movement are enormous but we are willing to do SOMETHING as long as it makes sense. Taking back our country from Wall Street makes sense. If those who can donate see your movement as growing they will donate should you ask via these internets.
The most common thinking is that things will not change until enough people take to the streets. This is a way to dramatically increase those numbers in the streets.
Everyone I have asked so far said that they would be willing to donate to a program like this. It would not only help out the homeless whose numbers are countless but it will give them a VERY WORTHWHILE task-a task most of the 99%ers are already behind.
Response to RKP5637 (Original post)
WCGreen This message was self-deleted by its author.
Berlum
(7,044 posts)...that drum-- in different forms and tones somehwere in the circle -- will sound again and again over the next ten years till it attains a healing rhythm.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)any means.
1-Old-Man
(2,667 posts)OWS was, in my opinion, the least effective political movement in my lifetime. Even the Greens and the Libertarians have more of an effect and to be quite honest about it seem to have more national approval. Every time I've said this its been met with derision, but I'm still here and OWS has simply evaporated, so one of us seems to have been right and the other wrong. I have a lot of running around to do this morning and I can guarantee you that while doing my chores this morning I could find dozen's of self-described Tea-Party adherents but there isn't a chance in hell that I'd run across a single person who identified with OWS.
What a shame that is too. But what do you expect? It was an organization that thought its greatest strength was not having any organization, no focused message, no public communications system.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)message for you along with their provocateurs.
NNN0LHI
(67,190 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)I think we might be waiting for a long time...
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)that means they've already won!
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Nobody is going to disconnect from Wall St. At least, not enough to make a difference. They have us by the balls. People will not allow themselves to imagine the horrors unleashed upon others as a result of their 401k's and the media will not allow that information to be aired.
It's a hard thing to protest today. Harder than it has been in a long time. Unless of course your corporate sponsored, then it's just a marketing promotion. But actual protest, demanding free speech and being comfortable in the notion that you will be able to not suffer violence from the police, those days are gone.
The people at home who may have been slightly attracted by the idea of OWS saw the same things we saw. Massive militarized police crackdown and extreme acts of violence against helpless people. You can be photographed, tracked & blacklisted. You can lose your job. You can lose your health. The message is clear. Dissent will not be allowed unless it is in a dissent allowance zone.
Who wants to meet the end of a tazer or a tear gas canister to the head for some quaint idea of freedom or democracy when they can order a pizza and check out how much they made off Chevron that day.
The battle may be lost today. The war is far from over. Not while there are still people who place the needs of the many, of the animals & nature, of freedom, over the needs of wealth.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)clearly gone. In many ways it is now a repressive state, many citizens held in line by fear, intimidation and many by poverty.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)I'm not sure what people expected the endgame to be.
We have turned over our mountains to Wall St and they have stripped them.
We have turned over our forests, oceans, fresh water, jungles and wetlands and they have stripped them.
We turned over our retirements, our Main Streets and our homes and they stripped them.
There is nothing left to strip but us.
MADem
(135,425 posts)No organization, no willingness to "person up" and choose leaders and hold those leaders accountable; no attempt to work within existing communities in a proactive way; too much time spent spitting at cops in a phony sixties sort of Vietnam flashback...it could have been WONDERFUL. Instead, it was a mismanaged, stupid mess.
The best protests OWS put on were organized by those tough, unflinching, don't-give-an-inch UNIONS. Signs, permits, a route, police to direct traffic, ambulance on standby...the whole nine yards.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)I agree it is a great cause and a necessary one. But the problem is Wall St.
Not jobs, not sharing more of the pie, Wall St itself. Many of the people I met seemed to just want part of the pie.
We need to stop turning our last precious natural lands and resources into money. Today. People talk about our borrowing from China and the horrible debt we are leaving behind.
The most horrible debt is climate change. Wall St is only magnifying and hastening our descent into bleak future. Every dollar in it, every hour spent in its service is only adding to the suffering. Chinese debt? That will be the last of their worries. What would they be willing to pay to have a slightly normal climate again? What would they be willing to pay to see a redwood forest or salmon again? Those are the real costs of Wall St and they are being passed on with interest to the only thing that should really matter to us. What we have done to make it better for our kids. We have mortgaged any future they might have had for McMansions, Audi's and corporate dreams.
MADem
(135,425 posts)And EASY. And affordable.
The oil producing nations need an alternative, too. It's not just the stuff that drives their engines, it's what pays for the food on their plate and the roof over their heads.
If we came up with an engine that ran on sand, Saudi Arabia would be set...but that is unlikely to happen, and what the hell else do they have? A once-a-year tourist industry, and oil. Venezuela? Hugo makes ALL of his grandiose promises with OIL. These OPEC types need to think downstream, because even though no one on this board is ever going to see that 'peak oil' last drop that some people insist is right around the corner, eventually the source will cease to be viable. You have a shitload of people with no way to make a living, and they get pissed. When people have nothing left to lose, they can become like a cornered snake.
We had a "Greed Era" not all that long ago, as well. The rich got richer, the poor got poorer. Then there was the Big Crash, the slow crawl back, the Big War (part 2) that fired up the engines of industry, and the (Cold War) Peace and Prosperity Baby Booming Aftermath.
I hope we can figure it out without having to go through that Big War shit.
The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)Boy, were they wrong.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)I'm not sure if that's going to be in every other city with an OWS-like group.
patrice
(47,992 posts)are several things going on across the country, not just for the conventions, but before some of these people get into their winter semesters at schools wherever.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts) xiamiam
(4,906 posts)all of us are ready ...more ready than last year for the young folks to lead the way into the streets. Nothing has changed for the better, if anything, things are worse. Yesterday, I hired a carpet cleaner, in a different state..he did the carpets and called to discuss payment and within 2 minutes we were off into a conversation about how screwed up america is..and how much we want our country back..he admitted he was an ex republican...we talked for about a half hour and basically agreed on the corruption, war profiteering, banksters, the owned media, etc etc. If 2 total strangers are engaging in conversation like this, you can bet it things are percolating just beneath the surface. Everywhere I go, people see thru the bs that is going on and everyone wants it changed..young to old..we really get it, whether the media is reporting about it or not. I have expectations between now and november that ows is going to be a major influence..not just a small influence..a MAJOR influence..
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)two major obstacles ... (1) all of the money behind keeping things just as they are, and (2) the mainstream media ignoring OWS except to highlight any bad parts. If the momentum builds MSM will have to cover OWS. There are a lot of people fed up with just about all politics in the US and some have just given up on the entire system, they need to be brought into changing the system.
taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)The message jumped the shark at that point and they started sounding like whiny youngsters that didn't want to pay their debts.
tama
(9,137 posts)taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)and my wife and I have nearly 200k in student loan debt.
Mmm_Bacon
(58 posts)RKP5637
(67,108 posts)
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)so it achieved its purpose, it changed the global conversation.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)awareness on the part of the masses as to what the 1% was all about, the severely gross inequities of wealth distribution and that we live in a broken system for the majority of people. People knew it, but it had not coalesced around a core theme called the 1%.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)Since these things don't involve camping out and getting beaten, they are ignored by the press (and politicians and their followers). I don't see the plight of Americans improving much in the immediate future so it won't die out.
RKP5637
(67,108 posts)Response to RKP5637 (Original post)
ann--- This message was self-deleted by its author.
tama
(9,137 posts)There have been expectations that grass-roots movements should focus their attention on this or that verbally defined goal (by some hierarchic leadership) in the frame work of establishment, and expressions that not doing so means lack of focus.
That is not how I comprehend focus, being present sensually and physically and mindfully. Not as excluding from attention the whole of the world or everything else besides a verbal expression of a political goal. But as being centered in this moment and opening to all of this, sensually, emotionally and mindfully. With compassion.
Being present in a talking circle and listening attentively and with your whole body is very good practice of focus, being centered and grounded.